Why I don’t need consent lessons

By , Senior Tab reporter on

They're full of people pointing out the obvious, thinking they've saved the world

Ah, the special feeling you get when logging into Facebook and find someone thinks you’re cool enough to invite to their event. Is it a house party? Is it a social? All the possibilities race through your mind. Then it hits you. You tap the red notification and find you’ve been summoned to this year’s “I Heart Consent Training Sessions”. Your crushing disappointment quickly melts away and is overcome by anger.

Let me explain, I love consent. Of course people should only interact with mutual agreement, but I still found this invitation loathsome. Like any self-respecting individual would, I found this to be a massive, painful, bitchy slap in the face. To be invited to such a waste of time was the biggest insult I’ve received in a good few years. It implies I have an insufficient understanding of what does and does not constitute consent and that’s incredibly hurtful. I can’t stress that enough.

I feel as if I’m taking the “wrong” side here, but someone has to say it – I don’t have to be taught to not be a rapist. That much comes naturally to me, as I am sure it does to the overwhelming majority of people you and I know. Brand me a bigot, a misogynist, a rape apologist, I don’t care. I stand by that.

I already know what is and what isn’t consent. I also know about those more nuanced situations where consent isn’t immediately obvious as any decent, empathetic human being does. Yes means yes, no means no. It’s really that simple. You’d think Russell Group university students would get that much, but apparently the consent teachers don’t have as high a regard for their peers as I do.

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Do I really look like a rapist?

I’m not denying there have been tragic cases of rape and abuse on campuses in the past, but do you really think the kind of people who lacks empathy, respect and human decency to the point where they’d violate someone’s body is really going to turn up to a consent lesson on a university campus? They won’t. The only people who’ll turn up will be people who (surprise, surprise) already know when it’s okay to shag someone. No new information will be taught or learned. It will just be an echo chamber of people pointing out the obvious and others nodding along, thinking the whole time thinking that they’ve saved the world.

I want to call the people leading the charge behind these classes admirable, I want to call them heroic, but I’m afraid they’re not. There are countless other more useful things they could be doing with their time. They could be making a difference by actually going out and campaigning, volunteering and caring for other people. Instead they selfishly make themselves feel better by indulging in the delusion that all that’s needed to save the vulnerable from foul predators is to point out the blindingly obvious.

Self-appointed teachers of consent: get off your fucking high horse. I don’t need your help to understand basic human interaction. Secondly, go and do something. Real people need your help and they deserve better than you. Next time you consider inviting me or anyone else to another bullshit event like this, have a little respect for the intelligence and decency of your peers. You might find that’s a more effective solution than accusing them of being vile rapists-in-waiting who can only be taught otherwise by a smug, righteous, self-congratulatory intervention.

 

  • Lydia

    This is so incredibly upsetting to read; you have completely missed the point. Most people get raped by someone they know and a lot of cases of rape and sexual assault on campus are a result of ‘blurred lines’ regarding alcohol or undue pressure being applied. These crimes are horrendous and awful (and I speak as a victim) but the people who commit them probably don’t look like the ‘foul predators’ you are imagining. They look like you, or me, or any of your friends; often their actions are stupid and opportunistic. And these people might well go to a consent class, because they probably see themselves as normal, even nice, people, and might really benefit from a reminder that being drunk is not an invitation, or that it’s not OK to try and talk somebody into sleeping with you, often using emotional blackmail, when they’ve said no.

    You bemoan the fact that ‘apparently the consent teachers don’t have as high a regard for their peers as I do’, but you just have to look at the statistics to see that amongst your peers there are a sizeable number of people who do commit these crimes, even at the Russell Group universities that you seem to hold as sacrosanct bastions of intelligence and right-thinking.

    Please don’t take this personally; although I found your article very difficult, I’m sure you are a nice person and I don’t dispute your assertion that you are not a rapist or a perpetrator of assault. But this is a huge problem across university campuses, and although few people would deliberately hide in the shadows and plan this kind of crime, there a plenty of people who could do with a reminder about what consent looks like.

    • Tom

      His point is that the type of people who pressure women in to sex or take advantage of women who are too drunk to consent ALREADY KNOW that what they are doing is wrong.

      You seem to be under this assumption that guys don’t realise what’s right and wrong, in reality they know exactly when they are starting to cross the line and they still choose to do it.

      You’re right that sexual assault is a problem at universities. But it is not an issue of blurred lines, it’s an issue of people actively choosing to do things that they know are wrong. That is why these consent classes are absolutely useless, they are targeting completely the wrong thing.

      • Zoë Rogers

        How many guys or girls actually know that it’s illegal to touch somebody without their permission in a club – probably not that many.

        I feel that people shouldn’t judge the workshops without having actually turned up to them – they’re about more than the ‘simple’ idea of consent.

        • Tom

          Virtually everyone knows that it’s wrong to grope people. You’ve pretty much proven my point about the hopeless naivety of the people behind these consent workshops.

          • Sophia

            virtually everyone knows its wrong to grope people in clubs?? please. most people think of it as a bit of harmless fun/banter, not a breach of consent

            • Tom

              No, they know that it’s wrong, but they still choose to do it. Which is even worse.

              Do you seriously honestly believe that any noteworthy portion of the male population actually thinks it’s acceptable to grab a random woman’s boobs/ass in a club?

              • Sophia

                100% yes?? seen when if you turn around and call them out, they laugh and say something similar to oh come on its just a bit of fun. what makes you so sure they know fully how wrong their actions are?

                • Tom

                  But they know that it isn’t ok. Trying to pass it off as a joke is just their defence mechanism.

                • Hzle

                  I’m sure it does happen – I don’t know how aware they are of the law. I think the question is – should the law be penalising them, and how strongly?

                  Women have done these things to me in clubs, and I doubt I’m alone, as I’m hardly a Greek God – it seems crazy to throw those women in jail for it. So why should men be?

            • ghebert

              Yes, everyone knows it’s wrong. Those who do it, do it because they don’t care that it’s wrong and feel entitled to do whatever the fuck they want.

        • Jon Alderson

          It’s illegal to sexually assault someone in a club. It’s not illegal to touch somebody. Have you been to a club? Just moving around involves putting your hand on someone’s back and gently persuading them that you need to get past – these are not places where personal space is at a premium.

          The feminist activist’s definition of sexual assault ignores how centuries of “normal” sexual behaviour have evolved and continue to be practiced by couples today. Specifically interpreted in terms of the dance scene, the music is too loud to allow much if any verbal communication, so asking at every stage is out. How then to gain consent? Eye contact, gestures, touches which aren’t sexual assault first. Those are all fine, but if all contact between two adults is sexual assault, then people may as well stop clubbing, because you’re opening yourself up to having to sign the sex offenders register if you happen to pay attention to the wrong person.

          Both genders flirt physically in clubs and elsewhere. But which gender is more likely to end up in jail? You guessed it. And it’s because indoctrinated young women, paranoid from years of scaremongering by feminist activists, think that “touch = assault”. Except when they like the guy. See, the definition, by the way, of whether that touch is assault cannot be (yet often is) “did I find him attractive?”. I’ve seen that all over the world – same actions by a male, totally different responses by the same female. Female friends have said “I wouldn’t have minded if he was attractive”.

          What the actual fuck.

          • Craig Wells

            Touching someone without their consent is battery. But obviously nobody is going to be charged for pushing past someone in a club.

            • Partridge

              It’s battery only if the touching is done in a hostile or offensive manner. Presumably, not simply when somebody claims to have been offended, but when any normal reasonable person would have been offended by the behaviour, which would need to be evidenced by independent witness or CCTV, etc..

              • Craig Wells

                I’m going to go ahead and say that in a club full of people there are going to be plenty of independent witnesses.

          • Every Fucking Time at a Club

            Pretty sure by touching we’re referring to butt grabbing and groping.
            Which does happen a lot in clubs. And is non-consensual. And isn’t flirting because it is some weirdo who is behind you and pretends that he hasn’t done it when confronted. But yes, the hand that keeps going up the skirt is definitely someone just passing by and totes not illegal.

            • Hzle

              It ain’t just men – though women are far more careful (or possibly they are also just kinder, though I think that’s difficult to call)

              When drunk, however, they lose their inhibitions. I (long ago) had several cases of women in clubs (who I didn’t know very well) doing things to me that were several levels more serious than bottom-pinching. If I did the same to a woman – in the current, slightly insane climate of moral panic – I could easily be in serious trouble.

              I didn’t run screaming and call the police. I didn’t care at all. Not because I’m better person, but because, as a man, I’m wired a bit differently. People seem to forget or stubbornly deny this about men & women.

              When you say ” the hand ..going up the skirt” – how to put this delicately.. – do you mean inside or outside? I think you might well actually find that this IS illegal, and could put someone on the sex-offender register for life, which seems OTT to me.

            • DaveRistaro

              Yeah and “pretty sure” that in the original comment the massive crime was just described as “touching somebody”, so don’t try to change the definitions now. If the original comment poster had meant “butt grabbing” and “groping” then they should have said so. They said “touching”, they meant “touching”.

        • Hzle

          Well clubs are exactly the sort of places that completely refute all this OTT stuff about touching being sexual assault.

          It’s asking a bit much of drunk & happy young people to not touch each other until they have consent. If you don’t have written consent then consent becomes a tiny bit of a grey area – difficult to prove either way.

          Women “touch” men all the time in clubs – men in reality simply aren’t that precious about it.

          As another poster said pubs, bars and clubs tend to be packed – and packed with stupidly drunk people. If you did want a law to criminalise bottom-pinchers, you still don’t want a clumsy tool which could in theory have half the 20-somethings in the UK in jail. With a law like that the police or lawyers have to decide which cases are “assault” – we are entitled to ask how the hell do they make that distinction?

      • Dan Wheatley

        so are you saying that the set of all people who have committed sexual assault or rape is exactly the same as the set of all people who know what they’re doing is wrong?

        • Tom

          Are you seriously denying that virtually everyone who commits sexual assault/rape knows that what they’re doing is wrong?

          • Dan Wheatley

            not at all, but I am saying that there is some non-zero number of people who don’t realise where the line is and therefore don’t realise that what they’re doing is wrong

      • Sophia

        its not an issue of blurred lines?? are you actually kidding. so you genuinely believe most rape situation happen with an “evil” guy lurking around to overpower or lure a drunk girl?

        • Tom

          Virtually all rape situations happen when someone knows what they are doing is wrong but still chooses to do it.

          • Sophia

            that is such a hypothetical sentence, its pretty much nonsense. as if the guy who starts to sleep with a girl and doesn’t notice she is (for example) a bit too drunk and suddenly doesn’t seem as into it, has made a conscious decision to become a rapist.

            • Tom

              You’re deliberately picking an extremely rare minority of cases that are as borderline as can possibly be.

              • Sophia

                an extremely rare minority of cases?? did you really think all rapes are committed in a dark alleyway by a hooded stranger? are you really that naive?

                • Tom

                  I’m not going to bother responding to strawman arguments.

                  • Sophia

                    you have literally nothing to back up your arguments. you keep plucking facts out of nowhere and refusing to see that somehow you might not know everything about something. normally these discussion are far more interesting when it is with someone who actually has a clue about what they are talking about.

                    • Tom

                      You’re the one who isn’t making any arguments. Every time I make some kind of point, you either respond with a strawman argument or a personal attack.

                    • Sophia

                      there is no point (ha ha) in making points without any evidence to back it up? and i am sorry if i made any personal attacks, it is genuinely not my intention, i couldnt care less about what person you are, i am genuinely wanting to try and understand how you believe these things you keep saying.

                    • Tom

                      My points don’t need evidence as they are based on rational thought and logic.

                    • Sophia

                      “my points don’t need evidence” well now I know you are a complete idiot

                    • Tom

                      Can you not read?

                      “as they are based on rational thought and logic.”

                      You literally have not made one single argument of substance this entire time we’ve been debating. Every single comment you’ve made has been a strawman, an insult, or an irrelevant tangent.

                      Put up or shut up.

                    • Sophia

                      although i had assumed you would have gathered my arguments from my comments, i will spell it out for you. there is plenty of solid hard evidence out there (which if you like i can find a link to you) that shows most rapes are committed not by a stranger but by someone you know. so by friends, family, students, parents. who aren’t necessarily all “evil” with skewed morals. people arent good or bad, there are blurred lines with it all, and if people put on workshops to maybe shine a bit of light on these potantial grey areas, then its a good thing. even if that means hurting the feelings of some individuals in the meantime.

                    • Tom

                      Nothing you just said contradicts any of my arguments.

                    • Sophia

                      are you serious? you are supporting this article which is claiming that sexual consent workshops are useless, “people like him” dont need to be invited to them as “people like him” (although what the fuck that classifies as who knows) would never commit rape. how is that what i am saying in any way?

                    • Tom

                      My argument is that, in virtually all cases, people who commit sexual assault and rape know that what they are doing is wrong, hence why consent classes are pretty much useless.

                    • Someone

                      How do you know that though? Like, how do you read other people’s minds? Where is the source for this information? You say your own rationale and logic, but given our clash of opinions on this thread, clearly people perceive things differently and think different things about other people, so how can either of us be so sure? And if so, do you have any citations you consider reliable to back this up? If not, then isn’t it really just your word against ours, your voice or opinion isn’t necessarily more correct, as we are all speculating about other people’s inner thinkings, which you don’t know about.

                    • Tom

                      I can say the EXACT SAME paragraph about your argument.

                    • Someone

                      Uh, no? I’m saying how can you be so sure? As in, how can you be so sure about what other people think about rape? At least consent workshops broach the subject realising that people may have different ideas and understanding of what is and isn’t OK when it comes to a sexual interaction with someone else. As someone who has been in and led these workshops, based on feedback received from people, I have more datapoints of evidence to back up my statement.
                      “I learnt something new today”
                      “I had never thought about this before, thank you”
                      “This was more interesting than I expected, and quite valuable”
                      is an example of some I got last week. From men. So based on this, I don’t think they are this evil nor harmful. And no, I don’t think these men are rapists nor want to be rapists, but still a good dialogue to have right?

                    • Tom

                      Consent workshops assume that every man is a potential rapist, surely by your logic that’s just as bad as if not far worse than me assuming that everyone knows sexual assault is wrong

                      By the way, if consent workshops accept that different people have different ideas about what’s acceptable, what the actual fuck is the purpose of their existence, if there is no one guideline on what’s acceptable?

                    • Someone

                      ? No, they do not make this assumption? Or are you going to say fire inductions assume everyone is going to set a building on fire?

                    • Tom

                      That’s a ridiculous comparison and you know it. These consent workshops are just a slightly less extreme way of saying that all men are rapists and need to be taught not to rape otherwise they’ll all go out and rape.

                    • Someone

                      Um, no? Have you been to one of these workshops? If yes, what sort of workshop have you been to because that is not their assumption at all. They are for both genders, and are framed in such a way to gauge what people understand as consent and how to get it. And it is framed as something important for both parties to achieve, not “just men”, and they don’t assume that sexual relationships only occur with a man initiating on a woman. I feel that you are placing a lot of your own bias in the interpretation of these workshops, because honestly, they are just like a fire induction, but at least you get to talk about what causes the fire.

                    • Jemma

                      Every man is a potential rapist. The stats (EG Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that’s roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour, EG 1 in 5 women aged 16 – 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16) show this is not a small problem. Why don’t you act like the person you’re claiming to be and support educating all men (and women) about rape in the hopes that it will improve this awful situation. Your attitude is disgusting and is a best denying the experiences of rape that people have every day. Your argument is a good example of the ‘Not all Men’ classic fall back of ignorant misogynists. Google it, you’re actually not that original or clever in your arguments.

                    • Tom

                      The fact that you think someone who says that not all men are rapists is an “ignorant misogynist” shows how much of an utter man-hating tool you are

                    • Ian Hamilton

                      A tiny minority? NO. Official government data is 2.5% of females and 0.4% of males every year. That is huge. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

                    • Anna Grinevich

                      lol

                    • Sophia

                      well then my argument definitely contradicts that???? can you not read

                    • Tom

                      It doesn’t contradict my argument at all. If you believe that it does, you do not understand my argument.

                    • Sophia

                      how does it not contradict your argument???? im starting to think you are a troll, nobody can be this obtuse

                    • Tom

                      Please re-iterate exactly what your argument is in case I have misunderstood you.

                    • Sophia

                      are you actually kidding me? i will copy paste when i literally earlier said I will spell it out for you. “although i had assumed you would have gathered my arguments from my
                      comments, i will spell it out for you. there is plenty of solid hard
                      evidence out there (which if you like i can find a link to you) that
                      shows most rapes are committed not by a stranger but by someone you
                      know. so by friends, family, students, parents. who aren’t necessarily
                      all “evil” with skewed morals. people arent good or bad, there are
                      blurred lines with it all, and if people put on workshops to maybe shine
                      a bit of light on these potantial grey areas, then its a good thing.
                      even if that means hurting the feelings of some individuals in the
                      meantime.”
                      = i support these workshops if you again dont understand the above

                    • Tom

                      It doesn’t contradict my argument. Just because something is committed by someone you know, doesn’t mean that that person didn’t know that what they were doing was bad.

                    • Sophia

                      i genuinely in this whole argument have lined out examples of exactly that, which you dismissed as too far-fetched, i offer you evidence and yet all you are doing is repeating the same phrase over and over without any evidence, assuming that because YOU believe it, it must be right and somehow you know what is going on in everybody elses mind. is that seriously how this is going to go on? it is getting boring

                    • Tom

                      You haven’t offered any evidence to back up your claims.

                    • Sophia

                      how would you like me to link you any number of papers? and when are you going to start offering any logical argument other than “i think this is right thereofre it is”

                    • Tom

                      “i think this is right thereofre it is” is literally all you’ve done this entire time.

                      Link me academic sources PROVING that:

                      1.) A lot of men don’t understand the difference between right and wrong when it comes to consent.

                      and that:

                      2.) Most rapes occur because of genuine misunderstanding rather than deliberate wrongdoing.

                    • Lazy Men

                      Find stuff to back up your own claims, lets see you do some legwork.

                    • Sophia

                      i dont know how to link page but i can give you titles:

                      Read Her Lips: An Argument for a Verbal Consent Standard in Rape

                      Lani Anne Remick

                      University of Pennsylvania Law Review

                      Is It Rape? On Acquaintance Rape and Taking Women’s Consent SeriouslyJoan Macgregor

                      CULTURE, COGNITION, AND CONSENT: WHO PERCEIVES WHAT, AND WHY, IN ACQUAINTANCE-RAPE CASES

                      Dan M. Kahan

                    • what about meeeee

                      Why are they so heteronormative?

                    • Sophia

                      i knowww im very sorry, i will admit i am very ignorant when it comes to sourcing papers that go into the depth and complexity of consent while not being heteronormative. i am very sorry!

                    • what about meeeee

                      Paradox: Two dudes get drunk and have sex. Who’s the rapist?

                    • mm

                      Whoever initiated.

                      but they probs won’t remember and won’t report anyways.

                    • RV

                      You are not protecting women from rape you are trying to criminalise men. Why are sources so sexist? Why is only female consent important, why isn’t male consent just as important? If you want these standards why not accept men and women are different and women require special priveliges not afforded to males.

                    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

                      Seen. All of these above are feminist advocacy papers. Not a shred of science in them.

                    • Sophia

                      would you like more? and yeah how about you start proving any shred of evidence in your claims?

                    • Kathy

                      Sophie doesn’t need to use evidence because her thoughts are rational and based in logic. Familiar?

                    • Geoff

                      Tom you’re a fucking cunt

                    • Tom

                      If you were in front of me I’d beat you in to a pulp kid.

                    • Sophia

                      for gods sake tom, look at yourself and your own comments. i am torn between thinking youre either incredibly stupid or trolling because i just cant imagine any person trying to argue this for so long without producing a single fucking piece of evidence. you are so far in the wrong you cant even seem to look in the right direction, even though so many people (not including myself as i am sure anything i saw at this point you will just spit out of your self-pitying privileged mouth) are calmly giving you examples opposing your opinion

                    • Kathy

                      Look up Ched Evans, or Steubenville. The men involved there didn’t think what they were doing was wrong. Ched Evans still protests his innocence to this day.

                    • DaveRistaro

                      As he should, considering he’s innocent and was unfairly convicted. The entire case against him was laughable. Maybe it’s actually you, Kathy, who needs lessons in consent?

                    • Tom

                      Not a valid comparison. Ched Evans argues that the victim’s version of events is false and that he did not do what he is accused of. For what it’s worth I don’t really believe him.

                    • Kathy

                      Good lord, you’re obstinate.

                    • Another Person

                      The issue with using ‘rational thought and logic’ in this context is that they actually only apply to you, your opinion, your upbringing – which just comes across as a bit narrow minded and egocentric. People have different psyches – so yes, some people will not have the same moral compass as you – they may have actively accepted committing ‘crime’ or ‘bad’ actions as something that is good, or some were just never taught it. Where I grew up there was a kid band who would often steal with a pocket knife, and they didn’t view it as a ‘bad’ thing when asked. Eventually, they were put into a child centre and there they were taught that stealing at knife-point is an act of deliquency and their opinions changed. And the thing is, moral values are interpreted differently by each people, so I don’t think you can make a blanket statement on how a perpetrator of crime “knew” that he was committing a crime – he knew what actions he was doing but that doesn’t mean he was ascribing a moral value to it and knew that it was wrong by law, and that is what Sophia is getting at and the point you are missing with that narrow mind! :p

                    • Another Different Person

                      [citation needed]

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                    • Sophia

                      yeah, i feel i should definitely point out just in case it gets skewed that i am not in any way suggesting Tom is a potential rapist, all i am saying is that its not black and white, there arent people who are actively bad who do it and good people who wont, it is all blurred!

              • Ian Hamilton

                What percentage exactly?

          • Chris

            What makes you an expert on human behaviour?

            • Craig Wells

              The same thing which says that people cannot be taught not to rape.

              • Chris

                1) I wasn’t asking you, and 2) that comment makes no sense

                • Craig Wells

                  My point is that the people who say men can be taught not to rape are making grandiose assumptions about human behaviour with no evidence to back it up.

                  • Jennifer Dybell

                    So you’re saying that rape is a natural instinct?

                • Tom

                  It makes a lot of sense. You claiming that people can be taught not to rape, applies just as much to your comment as me saying that rapists know what they’re doing is wrong.

              • Sophia

                That is an (untrue) completely random statement to throw in, which adds nothing to the discussion??

          • Ian Hamilton

            Please provide the source of this ‘virtually all’ statistic, it sounds like an interesting piece of research

      • Chris

        The guy who sexually violated me didn’t think he’d done anything wrong. He thought he just got carried away and I was just making a big deal out of it.

        • Tom

          If what he did constitutes rape or sexual assault, I simply don’t accept that he genuinely believed he’d done nothing wrong. I simply can’t envisage any circumstance in which that would be the case.

          • Sophia

            “if what he did constitutes rape or sexual assault” what give you the right to doubt what she is saying? and what makes you such an expert on the psychology of all these people? just because YOU cant envisage a situation like that does not mean it isn’t true.

            • Tom

              You should work on your reading comprehension skills. I didn’t in any way doubt what they were saying.

              • Sophia

                yes you did. “if what he did” you’re implying that there is a possibility she was wrong about sexual assault that happened to HER

                • Tom

                  You’ve just proven my point… You’ve run out of arguments so you’ve resorted to massively twisting my words.

                  • Sophia

                    for the sake of polite discussion and not stooping to personal insults, im going to ask if you didn’t mean to imply that then what were you implying by using the word “if”?

                    • Tom

                      What I said, when understood correctly, does not in any way imply doubt over their version of events. If you misunderstood what I said, the problem is on your end.

                  • Terrence S M Popp
                • Dorian

                  Why do you assume Chris is female? Do you think sexual assault only happens to women? And that only males perpetrate it?

                  • Sophia

                    No i apologise for that, i wrote in a comment earlier before that there are male victims of sexual assault also but for the ease of writing i will use females as an example and then was careless and didnt double check with chris. definitely my bad!

                    • DaveRistaro

                      You forgot to clarify that there are female perpetrators of sexual assault too.

                      And it is QUITE acceptable to doubt if somebody has been assaulted, when feminist lobbys in universities are using, _in their own statistics_, people who have “suffered” “unwanted sexual advances” in their figures. Again, feminist lobbying trivializing sexual assault.

                      So, people who might have somebody offer them a chat-up line, are now “sexually abused”. And these are the very statistics you use to try to persuade us that there are “a sizeable number of people who do commit these crimes”. And you wonder why there is so much suspicion and why people object to these “classes”. Ha.

                • Chris

                  (just to clarify that I’m a guy, men are victims of sexual assult too!)

                  • Sophia

                    my bad! getting all angry about this made me careless, i apologise

            • brookstyle

              What gives you the right to doubt what he is saying?

          • Chris

            I don’t have any desire to give you details of what happened, but it let to me needing to have trauma therapy. And he took zero responsibility for any of it.

            • Tom

              I would imagine, honestly, that he knows what he did was wrong but doesn’t want to take responsibility for his actions.

              • Chris

                Well thanks a lot for your anaylsis on a situation and person which you know literally nothing about.

                • Tom’s Mind

                  This is what we’re getting at, Tom seems to think he can read the minds and psyche of everyone.

        • Cal Dempsey

          To defend Tom’s point, anyone who sexually assaults or harasses another person either:
          1. Is mentally healthy and therefore knows it is wrong and chooses to do so any way.
          2. Has mental or social issues that lead them to believe what they are doing is correct, and attending one of these ‘lectures’ will not correct them.

          There are no normal people who think rape or harassment is okay.

        • Jamie Taylow

          You probably were.

    • Craig Wells

      So presumably your rapist would not have raped you if you told him that “yes means consent, no means a lack of consent”?

    • ghebert

      When there are “blurred lines” as you say, it’s up to the people involved to un-blur them. If a guy is not getting the body language then it’s time to drop the typical female subtle hint strategy and use your goddamn words. A stern “NO” is simple and should get the point across for the guy who simply doesn’t understand the nuances of body language. Unfortunately, you are likely going to read this and call me a misogynist for simply asking that women be responsible for their actions or inactions. You can’t control the actions of others, only your own. Guys aren’t mind readers, most of us don’t really understand subtle hints and need you girls to be more direct…which conflicts with your need to be absolved of any decision making when it comes to sex because let’s face it, it’s easier to still think of yourselves as “good girls” if you sit there coyly while letting him make all of the advances, pushing his hands away one minute while smiling invitingly the next. When lack of consent only occurs in the woman’s mind and the guy thinks he’s good to go…I’m sorry but it’s not rape. If you say “NO” you have un-blurred the lines…if a guy keeps going after that, he is crossing a solid line and that’s on him.
      As for alcohol, unless someone is speaking gibberish or falling over everywhere, or worse, blacked out, then having a few drinks and being a little tipsy does not make one incapable of consenting to sex. If it did, a whole lot of people would be considered rapists. And it’s always the woman who is considered some victim when she’s drunk and regrets her sexual encounter then calls it rape. If a guy and girl are both drunk and have sex, no one says the guy and girl both got raped. Anyone who says “but, but it’s different for women” are effectively saying that women are to be infantilized and considered to weak and fragile to be able to consent to sex after a few drinks. I mean, obviously us men are superior to women because we can get hammered and still have the ability to consent to sex. Sarcasm aside, there’s no way to stop people from getting drunk and doing stupid things like having sex with someone they wouldn’t normally do it with. I don’t think it’s okay to ruin someone’s life because a girl had a really bad case of the beer goggles the night before.

    • Partridge

      Rape and sexual abuse is NOT a huge problem across university campuses. Feminism is a huge problem. People generally do not seem to realise that its insidious evil ideology is based on false history, distorted statistics, and downright lies.
      So how about teaching women not to make false accusations, mothers not to abuse their children, and wives not to be violent to their partners? And how about campaigning against male genital mutilation (circumcision), a far greater problem than FGM: don’t young boys have the right not to be so abused? How about the imbalance in education? If male students outnumbered females in higher education to the extent that females outnumber males, feminists would be up in arms. Not to mention the far greater numbers of male suicides, workplace deaths, shorter life expectancy, and children denied access to their fathers? Oh but I forgot, feminism is all about equality, right? BS.

      • Kathy

        Get back to A Voice for Men and shout into your echo chamber.
        By the way, while I agree that male circumcision is entirely wrong, FGM is comparatively worse. Circumcision is the snipping of some skin, FGM is the removal of the clitoris, and in some cases the sewing up of the vagina. For you to claim that circumcision is a far greater problem is frankly absurd.

        • disqus_QL05BqU79X

          AHA! I’ve come across you on Facebook before! I knew it! I shut you up on there, too on the same subject. You got so angry that you told other users to disregard everything I typed. You’re one of the most desperate and childish liars I’ve shot down in ages. LOVE YOU! Mwah x

          FGM is very rare and performed by women at the behest of women.

          FGM is almost always a nick in the clitoral hood. Clitorectomies are almost unheard of. Vulva-closure stitching never happens and was invented by feminist fearmongers like you. The one photo doing the rounds was shown to be Photoshopped.

          Circumcision of males is historically done to damage males so they can be more easily subjugated into a warrior class. Even the fucking Imams and Jewish leaders have admitted as much. Anyone can cut a baby boy without anaesthetic or a license in the UK.

        • Partridge

          So circumcision of boys is a lesser problem and can therefore be ignored? If feminism is for equality, why can it not campaign against both? We both know why. Feminism is an evil man-hating ideology, which less than 20% of gullible women identify with.

  • Ralf

    I couldn’t agree more with Lydia.

    Fucking terrible article: self absorbed, based entirely on conjecture, and offers no constructive suggestions as to how the issue of rape could be better tackled. Oh, sorry, you do mention “campaigning, volunteering and caring for other people” as “more useful things they could be doing with their time” (plus writing for the tab, of course). But, arguably, consent workshops are a form of volunteering, caring for other people, and campaigning.

    • Ralf

      … All of this demonstrates a lack of thought, tragically undermining the assurance you give us early on the piece that you know what is and what is not rape. Confused passages like the following “I also know about those more nuanced situations where consent isn’t
      immediately obvious as any decent, empathetic human being does. Yes
      means yes, no means no. It’s really that simple” further demonstrate the lack of thought that’s gone into this article.

      • Hot Cosby

        ‘Offers no constructive suggestions on how the issue of rape could be better tackled’.
        Well I suppose they could also be running Women’s defence classes. You know, maybe get other societies involved like Judo, or Krav Maga. Common sense advice like, avoid badly lit areas at night if you’re all alone. Notify a friend when you’re leaving and when you get to your destination. etc

        But a patronising attempt to give lessons on consent, as the author suggested is likely to only be attended by certain people who, let’s frankly face it, will enjoy the echo chamber that is thoughts surrounding consent. The problem with a criminal is that if they commit a crime, be it opportunistic or pre-meditated is that it is unlikely done with any thought of the victims suffering.
        The suggestion that because the article lacked eloquence, he therefore has his ability to truly recognise consent brought into question is incredibly stupid, and makes your retort (despite the attempt at a thought provoking response) also an incredibly stupid one.

        But to finish on a positive note, I suppose you can chalk up all the fair maidens on the internet you’ve helped today, and remove the white helmet and maybe relax on your own with a healthy does of tumblr.

        • Rape apologist

          Those suggestions are victim blaming though, you’re telling people to avoid being raped. The onus shouldn’t be on victims, it should be on preventing crime from happening in the first place.

          • Hot Cosby

            ‘Those suggestions are victim blaming’ – No they’re sensible precautions. There is a difference. See, victim blaming would be saying, ‘you had a drink, got raped, and you deserved it’ or ‘you wore a skirt, so deserved to get raped’.

            I didn’t say those things, I’m of the grown-up opinion that there are nasty people out there, who do bad things, no matter how many campus consent workshops are put on.

            You, are of the naïve opinion that with counselling, people will never have to face the real world outside of the campus, or anything.

            You’re an idiot

            • Rape apologist

              You’re the idiot. Would you say:
              it’s your fault – if they hadn’t learnt self defence? Or if despite knowing it, they got raped anyway? Or if they are disabled in some way that self defence isn’t an option (disabled people are common targets, hence my mentioning this)?

              If the person is drunk/their drink was spiked, they may not be able to employ self-defence, and under certain situations you just go blank.

              Self-defence is a useful tool, but doesn’t save you or necessarily prevent it at all. From someone who does two martial arts. If you argue that consent workshops are useless, I argue that this suggestion is just as bad.

              Also, counselling isn’t to prevent people from facing the real world, but to deal with issues that they may be dealing with. A guy downthread speaks briefly of his experience of being violated and requiring therapy. Counselling serves a purpose, I don’t think it is bubblewrapping him into the real world – people have different experiences and process them differently, you are naive to think that onesize fits all works for everyone.

            • Judas Iscariot

              But these people will become the “real world outside the campus” when they leave. So any positive “counseling”, I’d call it education, gained on campus will benefit the wider world.

              I know what you’ll say: the people committing the rapes won’t be at the sessions anyway; bad people commit rapes and bad people don’t go to consent workshops. But if you looked at evidence concerning sexual assaults at university (which I don’t think you have, though i could be wrong of course) you would see that the problem is endemic – people you know, and like, may well have committed sexual assault with or without realizing it. Would they be at the sessions? How can you possibly say?

              • GrumpyPurpleSloth

                “But if you looked at evidence concerning sexual assaults at university (which I don’t think you have, though i could be wrong of course) you would see that the problem is endemic ”

                And if you look at the methodology behind the data that claims it is an endemic, you’d also see that the researchers who publish such data use such broad, unrealistic terms to inflate the numbers that the research figures become literally meaningless and normal human sexual interactions, in many cases, become “criminalised” in order to fit the narrative the researchers want.

                Equally, if you look at Government data over the last 20 years (country depending, but in the UK, USA & Canada the following is true) you’d not only see that the rape & sexual assault rates have dropped dramatically (to less than half of what they were) but that women are actually now safer on campus than off it.

                Granted, the only “good” solution would be if no rapes or sexual assaults happened at any time, ever. But claiming it is endemic flies in the face of all credible data.

              • Partridge
            • J

              Oh dear. As Lydia pointed out earlier: “Most people get raped by someone they know and a lot of cases of rape and sexual assault on campus are a result of ‘blurred lines’ regarding alcohol or undue pressure being applied.”
              i.e. most rape victims didn’t have to walk down a dark street, or not tell a friend where they were going to be, in order to be attacked. They were raped by people who don’t see themselves as criminals because they don’t understand what consent is. You seem to believe that women avoiding dark alleys and staying in groups will end rape. The vast weight of evidence (both qualitative and quantitative) would suggest the otherwise.
              This article, and your comments – this is why we need to do more educational work on consent.

          • Hzle

            That’s a mixed up argument – though you hear it a lot. Prevention is always better than whatever measures you take after the event. But how on earth do you prevent crime? If we had the answer to that….

            While we live in the real world – part of prevention is avoiding particular situations. This is not “putting the onus on victims” – this phrase is political sophistry that young people are being fed* – but on each one of us to look after ourselves.

            These “education” classes for men are terribly dodgy. Who decides on how men should be educated? I wouldn’t trust the people asking for the classes – none of them really understand what they are talking about, and hold one particular rather nasty brand of gender politics. They are the last people who should be “educating” men, or women for that matter

            This entire debate is being conducted by people who think the only focus should be on women’s feelings, whilst caring not at all for men – who we’re constantly bashing & giving no positive role models to.

            * I always quote Orwell here: “Political language — and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists — is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind”

          • brookstyle

            let’s make sure we have some crusade to tell bank robbers not to go through with it. Of course let’s get rid of safes and other types of security as well.

            • Craig Wells

              Let’s educate theives and murderers about what it means to steal and murder. That will stop them….

              • Kathy

                You do know that we do teach people not to steal and murder, right?

                • Craig Wells

                  And thats why there are no more of them

                  • Kathy

                    I imagine there’s less than there would be if we didn’t

                • Lizzie Cornish

                  Then let’s also start teaching women that all men are NOT rapists, that women CAN keep themselves safe from dangerous humans, of both genders….and that women are NOT there for femniists to use in the endless campaign of Men Hating Misandry…

          • Lizzie Cornish

            Don’t be so stupid. People come into this world wrongly wired up, for the start. Others become violent due to alcohol, when sober, they are perfectly normal (both genders)….Feminists are so THICK, so TWISTED and so MISANDRICALLY OBSESSED, in my view, that they’d rather a woman WAS raped than tell women to take care, to never put themselves in danger, to STOP having sex with total strangers, to STOP drinking themselves senseless, to STOP dressing and behaving like sluts!

            My generation was taught common sense…and that was NOT to put ourselves into dangerous situations, NOT to get drunk (most women didn’t back then…and it was SO much better!)…to stay away from strangers and to have self-respect, to get to know someone…..

            Feminists have lost the plot, so sick are those now leading this movement…They would truly prefer for a woman to be hurt/harmed, because that way, it’s another number to add to their statistics.

            You lot even got Sussex Police to remove their poster campaign, to keep women safe, a campaign which told women to look after each other, to be sure the most vulnerable (drunk!) amongst them did NOT go off with strangers, etc..etc…This, according to you all was ‘victim blaming’…so the campaign was removed…

            THIS is how much you think about and CARE about women! You’d RATHER have them harmed, then try to keep them safe, and you will NOT admit that some men AND women too, are insanely violent from arriving on the planet, or after they’ve drunk WAY too much…

            WHY don’t you CARE enough to SEE the shocking damage you are causing?

            Because, the ONLY thing you CARE about is putting men down, ALL the time…….

            You are WAY over the mark now…and many people are rising against you all….

            Get your heads sorted out, find out what’s wrong with you all, (I already know)..and get some fooking THERAPY as a ‘movement’….

          • RV

            No one is suggesting that if a rape occurs that the victim should be blamed or the guilt of the attacker mitigated, but that precautions should be taken to avoid the situation in the first place.

            So it’s not victim blaming is it? It’s twisted silliness like this that gives consent workshops a bad name, as it just makes it sound like an indoctrination session.

        • Judas Iscariot

          He is clearly not challenging George’s eloquence, but the tightness that his article lacks. The second quote Ralf uses shows George contradicting himself, demonstrating his lack of understanding of consent. Ralf was attacking George’s argument, not his views or conclusions, so to provide (comically (?), weak) alternative ways to tackle rape is all very good, but it is not a reply to Ralf.

          Learn to read more critically and objectively, it will stand you in good stead.

    • Hayley

      I agree, it’s an awful article. I feel these classes should be compulsory and also run every term to really get the message of consent across. Men are socialised from birth to ignore consent from women as patriarchy teaches men that women are nothing more than objects to be used as they please. At university especially we MUST undo this harm and begin to teach men how to understand consent, and that unless the woman is sober, gives an enthusiastic verbal yes to every new activity they have committed rape.

      • Partridge

        Sweeping generalisations, false ones at that, about men, are what causes more harm than anything else.
        It seems to be characteristic of some women that, after one or two experiences with bad examples of the opposite sex, they extend those to all men (‘I was raped by a man, therefore all men are rapists’). (Or is that too much of a generalisation?) :)

        • Kathy

          Dude, men only have to have once bad experience with a woman to denounce them entirely.

          • Partridge

            What planet are you from?

      • Alex

        No. Men are not the only gender than can commit rape. We need to be talking more about the different types of rape that can happen (not just PiV). Putting the blame on men, erases both male victims of rape & female victims of rape (those that suffered at the hands of other women).

        People know what consent is. People know how to understand consent. It’s the fact that those people ignore the signs is what makes it a problem. Teach EVERYONE to realise the signs that your partner is uncomfortable.

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        Wow! It’s amazing how many people on this thread are genuinely mentally ill. Everything you just said is the opposite of the truth!

        Boys are taught NEVER to hurt a girl at age four and have been since, oh, 50,000 years ago. Hence why female toddlers attack boys 20 times more than the reverse, and with impunity and privilege carried through into adulthood.

        Young women need consent classes.

    • Hayley

      I also think UK universities should ape US universities in setting up their own departments to investigate cases of sexual assault. This has resulted in many victims getting justice to the terrible crimes they have experienced as often perpetrators are expelled. This would be especially good here as he UK police and courts routinely fail rape victims (only 1% or rapists ever spend a day in jail).

      • Partridge

        They are not victims, they are accusers, and nearly half of them are false accusers. For the real victims suffering actual rape, which is a serious crime, and for the accused, justice will only be found in the criminal justice system, not in campus kangaroo courts.
        http://www.cotwa.info/ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/1-in-5-rapes-being-proved-false-doesnt-make-4-in-5-true/article/2573508

      • Craig Wells

        That statistic is a lie. Firstly, even if 99% of alleged rapists are not convicted because of a lack of evidence, why do you assume that they are all guilty anyway? Secondly, some are of course falsely accused. Thirdly, some rapes go unreported, so making claims about them is impossible.

        • Hayley

          False rape accusations are so rare (have a rate of less than 0.5% of all accusations) to the point where they basically don’t ever happen. We must focus our efforts of finding justice for victims and not scaring them so they can come forward.

          • Craig Wells

            Again, you don’t know that because in so many cases there is so little evidence.

            • disqus_QL05BqU79X

              Word. About 25% are shot down for no DNA! These are women claiming rape when NO SEX TOOK PLACE! Women saying they were raped just to get a lift home at night in a police car, for example. Yes, a real recent case from the UK. I have files of this stuff. It’s just pandemic madness.

              Women lie about rape all the time. Now more than ever.

          • Partridge

            Alison Saunders, current head of the CPS, has erroneously claimed that CPS work had shown false accusations of rape were ‘very rare indeed’. The implication is clear: false accusations, and innocent men falsely accused, can be ignored. The Crown Prosecution Service’s Rape Manual, in a section called Societal Myths, states that “studies have indicated that only 2 per cent of all reported rapes are false, which is slightly less than false reporting in all other crimes”.

            It gives no references to these studies, but the 2 per cent figure originates in the US and has been frequently cited. An attempt to trace it to its source by a US lawyer, Edward Greer, found that it originated in the feminist writer Susan Brownmiller’s 1976 book Against our Will, using data quoted by a judge that in turn came from the Commander of the New York City Rape Analysis Squad in the mid-1970s. This relied on an unknown source, and no report, analysis, or peer-reviewed article to substantiate the claim was ever published, nor any evidence of how the statistics were collected.
            Greer, Edward (2000), “The Truth Behind Legal Dominance Feminism’s “Two Percent False Rape Claim” Figure”, Loyola LA Law Review 33 (3), http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/llr/vol33/iss3/3/
            http://straightstatistics.fullfact.org/ … -or-common

            In fact, the US literature on the subject provides almost any estimate for false accusations of rape you care to choose. One study, published in 1994 by Eugene Kanin, found that in a small unnamed community in the Mid-West where every reported rape was carefully investigated, 41 per cent turned out to be false. The study covered 109 reported rapes over nine years and false claims were only classified as such when the complainant admitted fabrication. More recent studies, British and American, come up with various different figures, from 8% to 45%.

            A significant number of surveys and statistical reports originating from feminist academic or feminist-influenced sources have been found to be biased, distorted, or downright duplicitous, either in their methodologies or in the way they stress the figures in favour of women whilst ignoring, hiding, or assimilating those for men as if they did not exist. For example, the CPS themselves, in their 2014/15 ‘Violence against women and Girls Crime Report’, collected figures for both men and women, but include the men’s with the women’s, as if violence against men did not exist and women were the only victims. A similar thing happened in the supporting data for the Welsh Assembly’s Violence Against Women and Girls Act. That is how unreliable official (and feminist) statistics are.
            http://mra-uk.co.uk/?p=551

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        Jesus fucking christ. I think this one is on the PAYROLL! Kangaroo courts that negate the UK legal system eh?

        ZEIG HEIL! ZEIG HEIL! ZEIG HEIL! ZEIG HEIL!

    • Partridge

      Or they could be something approaching feminist indoctrination sessions; they would certainly be influenced by the false ideology of feminism in practice. The truth is that sexual abuse and rape is extremely rare, and female students are safer on campus than they are in society generally. 99.9% of men would never commit such offences. Men are more likely to form lynch mobs and kill innocent men following false accusations from women than to commit rape themselves.

      • Kathy

        Where are you from, Narnia?

        • Partridge

          That silly comment says more about yourself than about anything else.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Bless you. The Third Reich had chaps like you singing their songs only a few generations ago, too.

      “Consent workshops” are male-shaming classes at universities that no longer tolerate free speech. They’re doing a corking job of it, too.

  • Michaela

    This guy is a total dick

    • Tom

      Wanting a far more effective measure to prevent sexual assaults at university makes him a dick?

      • Sophia

        no, getting offended by a campus-wide invitation to a consent workshop and deciding he is suddenly an expert in the social pressures and grey areas of consent makes him a dick.

        • Tom

          But he has legitimate reasons to be offended and the criticisms he makes of the consent workshops are also legitimate.

          • Sophia

            firstly i dont think he has any reason to be offended, he wasn’t accused of being a rapist he was invited to a consent workshop to which i am sure hundreds of people were invited to as well, so he needs to grow up. secondly he is wrong when he says rapists wont go to these workshops. he is assuming that rapists consist of one specific group of people with a certain set of morals. what about the guys who hadnt really thought much about having a few drinks and sleeping with a girl who maybe was a little too drunk, thinking its just harmless fun? maybe if they had gone to one of these consent workshops they would have stopped to think, hang on a minute am I sure she is fully aware of what she is doing. just as an example

            • Tom

              Firstly, you have never and will never experience this so you aren’t really in a position to tell someone that they shouldn’t be offended by it.

              Secondly, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. I think that you’re hopelessly naive. I bet all the rugby players, football players and Geordie Shore wannabes will show up in droves.

              • Sophia

                what i have never experienced being invited to a consent workshop?? oh boo hoo, he needs to grow up and stop thinking about himself and how he can write his next shitty tab article and actually think of the victims of sexual assault who might have appreciated their rapist going to a few of these workshops. would you really look a victim in the eye and say to them, we should stop these workshops because a few privileged guys got offended by the thought that they didn’t absolutely everything there is to consent. spare me

                • Tom

                  You’ve never experienced being treated like a potential rapist and being asked to attend classes to teach you not to rape, just because you’re a man.

                  I would look a victim in the eye and say that consent classes are ineffective and I want a better way to help victims.

                  • Sophia

                    how about being actually sexually assaulted? Because i know for sure which i would prefer

                    • Craig Wells

                      But If you were sexually assaulted, you could just teach him not to assault you by telling him the meaning of consent.

                    • Sophia

                      yeah? because there is a significant amount of people out there who dont seem to realise that penetrating a drunk individual actually comprises of rape. if you had either any actual experience or even done the slightest amount of research

                    • Craig Wells

                      Ok first and foremost this is a LIE. Drunk consent is still consent. Clearly it is not I who needs to educate themselves but you. If you learnt that in an “I heart consent” workshop then it just proves my point about how useless they are. The law takes and objective assessment of rape, not subjective. It doesn’t matter how drunk the woman was, IT IS NOT RAPE IF SHE CONSENTED.

                    • Tom

                      Ridiculous and irrelevant comparison. Once again you’ve proven that you are completely incapable of making any kind of reasonable, logical response.

                    • Sophia

                      and no am i not throwing this is to try and stop the argument, nor do i want to use it to say anything, im just pointing out that a lot of women face a lot worse than being not fully trusted for things. (not that i am ignoring the amount of sexual assault against men, for the sake of making this easy im leaving it out)

                    • Tom

                      Women have a right to be offended because of rape.

                      Men have a right to be offended by being help collectively responsible for the actions of a tiny minority.

                    • Sophia

                      exactly. and yes its not that these two things are comparable, but they are relatable in the way that wouldn’t it be better to risk offending some groups (while also maybe teaching them a thing or two) if it meant preventing some cases of the other?

                    • Tom

                      Even if it did prevent a small number of sexual assaults (which I highly doubt) it still wouldn’t be justified to collectively punish an entire group of people for the actions of a tiny minority. That is called extreme bigotry.

                    • Sophia

                      (ok im just gonna continue replying on the thread above cos it is confusing jumping between the two)

                    • Somebody else

                      Yes, but not everyone knows these things actually. This guy claims he does, but no one knows everything in the grey areas really. And it is a good conversation to have – consent workshops aren’t a lecture, they are an open-ended discussion about different situations and are generally, quite interesting for those involved as different points of views are explored.

                      People have to do fire inductions too all the time in the UK. That isn’t because they everyone is a pyromaniac or doesn’t know that electrical fittings or leaving an appliance on or an open flame on can produce a fire. And the rate of fires is very low. There is certainly more counts of sexual harassment and assault than fires – so maybe there is a need for consent workshops.

                    • Guest

                      Tiny minority? 1 in 6 women in this country are sexually assaulted. Either a ‘tiny’ group of men are on a crime spree OR it isn’t as tiny of a minority as you’d like to believe.

                    • Craig Wells

                      Or that one in six figure is a LIE.

                    • ur face is a lie

                      It isn’t

                    • Craig Wells

                      It is a lie. There’s no study ever been done which proves it. The closest t has come to is 1 in 30.

                    • could be lieess

                      That’s still pretty fucking awful

                    • Guest

                      Use the 1 in 30 figure if you want, but that is still very high. Too high for it to be a crime spree of a ‘tiny minority’.

                    • Craig Wells

                      Not really. That’s in their entire lifetimes. I mean if 1 in 60 men assaulted 2 women each , that would be a tiny minority (2.5%) who commit sexual assault.

                    • Tom

                      I’m sorry to hear that, and I do believe that 1 in 6 sounds realistic, but it is a simple fact that it’s only a very small minority of men committing sexual assaults – they just do it to many people. To give a comparison, many people will be burgled at some point, but only a very small minority of people are burglars, but they are repeat offenders. See my point kinda?

                      You’ve clearly had very negative experiences with multiple men in your life so it’s easy to get carried away and lump all men together as an instinctive defence mechanism, but it’s important to think logically about these things and realise that it simply isn’t the case

                    • Guest

                      I promise you I’m not lumping all men together (see comment to you slightly higher up), I agree it’s a small minority, I’m just suggesting it’s not quite a tiny as you think. I think some people feel more comfortable with the idea that rapists are these shady characters that jump out and grab you and there’s only a few of them so hopefully you can avoid it ever happening, it feels a bit more removed from every day life, but people don’t seem to like the idea that people you though cared about you can do such horrific things to you. It’s much harder to come to terms with the fact if its more likely to be someone you know than a stranger its going to be a lot harder to defend yourself.

                      If I see a man following me on the street late at night there are lots of things I can do to try and protect myself or to get away (like go into a public place, go into a shop/bar and ask for help etc), but what happens if I go to a friends house where I’ve been a million times before where a few other friends are gathered and one of them assaults me? I’m less likely to know I’m at risk until it’s already happening. (note, I am not saying it is easy to get away or defend yourself or anything else like that with a stranger attack, just that I have my guard up much more out alone in public than I might somewhere I feel I should be safe).

                      The problem I find is I completely know not all men are rapists, the vast majority aren’t, but I kinda don’t know they are a rapist until they are already trying to rape me, you know? I can be quite guarded around men, and it’s nothing personal, but I want to keep myself safe. I wish more men understood what that fear was like, instead of accusing me of assuming all men are rapists. I don’t, but I have to assume at least some men are. People lock their front doors, it doesnt mean they assume everyone is a robber, but they do it because they assume some people are.

                    • Sophia

                      “they just do it to many people” are you actually serious? so youre saying there is a small group of people who travel around the world committing these rapes? god when i started this debate with you i thought you were even slightly a rational being now i am starting to think you are completely and ridiculously stupid (for want of a better word)

                    • Tom

                      You are unbelievably stupid and hateful if you think any significant percentage of men commit these sexual assaults.

                    • Guest

                      Also studies only show so much. I’ve been sexually assaulted. More than once, and not by the same man. I’ve never reported it. I’m missing from these statistics and I know there are a lot of women who are in the same position as me. Studies lie, or at least will never be able to tell the whole truth.

                    • uhum

                      This.

                    • WTFuckery

                      I feel sorry for your future daughter…

                    • Craig Wells

                      Because she won’t get a chance to engage in mass rape hysteria?

                    • Sophia

                      you said before to prove something you claim you need to provide evidence, so yeah i would like some eivdence that the figure is a lie. please provide

                    • Craig Wells
                    • Tom

                      It’s a tiny minority of men on a crime spree.

                    • Guest

                      That doesn’t make much sense, the majority (http://thisisabuse.direct.gov.uk/worried-about-abuse/view/rape-sexual-assault/myths) of rapes are committed not by a stranger, but by someone the victim knows. This crime spree group must have a pretty large network of people they know to be able to assault 1 in 6 women.

                    • Tom

                      It’s almost as if social networks are not a thing…

                    • Guest

                      Now now, language. I’m not insulting you, I’m just suggesting there are more people sexually assaulting other people than maybe people believe there to be. It’s important information in the context of consent lessons, because it points out that not all rapists are the strangers jumping out from the bushes kind and dragging you into the ally, many are by people you know and trust, it takes time to build that kind of relationship. Therefore, if the majority are committed by a person the victim knows and trusts, it suggests that it isn’t a crime spree group doing all of it (certainly some yes, but not all). It’s still a minority of men yes, but I don’t believe it’s as tiny of a minority as some people believe.

                    • Sophia

                      wow yet another incredibly stupid comment, are you really saying that actually there is a small number of people who commit rape and they actually aaallll know each other thorugh social media? are you actually this dense???

              • Kathy

                Can you see the future now, Tom?

  • Michaela

    How can you look like a rapist? wtf is that

  • Big guy for you

    Glad this has been put into an article, rape culture is simply not a thing in the UK, there is nothing reeducate people about. The only situation where these classes may be useful is when one person is drunk and the other is not. But even then, which moral and sane person doesn’t know what to do in that situation? Consent classes are at best unnecessary, at worst fearmongering.

  • Charlotte

    Clearly, not everyone is has the good moral direction that you do, but in the interests of the wider population, we must treat your case as a special exception. You may also want to reconsider your generalisations of those who would not attend, whilst protesting that you do not want to attend these sessions yourself, there seems to be a slight inconsistency.

    • Trey

      You will find that most people in the wider population view rape is a hideous crime, not a minority of people you would refer to as a “special exception”. Most people in the country possess a good moral direction.

      Sadly not everyone possess such morals, and it is exactly those people who will not turn up to these kinds of sessions which the author of the article refers to.

      • Tom

        There’s no point even attempting to debate with these kind of radical feminists Trey. They are so separated from reality and driven by hate that it makes any kind of reasonable conversation completely impossible.

        • Charlotte

          It’s true, we are on a higher plane of understanding than you mere mortals (regardless of gender).

        • Trey

          To be fair, I am not distinguishing between genders with my comments, given that people from all genders can be rapists or perpetrators of sexual assault.

        • L H

          “radical feminists”, “driven by hate”

          haaaaaa!

          • Tom

            Care to elaborate?

            • ha

              i feel like that doesn’t need explaining

              • Tom

                What exactly do you mean?

      • Charlotte

        My point was that the writer believes that, because his moral compass is in good check, that everyone else’s must be too. (Awful logic) The upshot is: there may be some people that know what and what is not rape, but that does not mean that we refrain from taking measures in educating the rest.

        • Trey

          Ah, that is fair, however on the contrary he states that not everyone’s moral compass is in good check, but it is those kinds of people who would not turn up to these kinds of sessions anyway, and that if there is to be something to rectify the problem then it needs to be targeted at their intended audience better.

      • Alyson Cruise

        Nope. Benevolent and hostile sexism mediate approval of rape, mainly in th form of rape myth belief. The effect is so pronounced that sexist humour makes men report that they are more willing to commit rape and gender role reinforcement makes men more willing to victim blame.

        Which is why 93% of incidents of rape never result in anyone being convicted.

        • Tom

          “The effect is so pronounced that sexist humour makes men report that they are more willing to commit rape”

          [citation needed]

          “Which is why 93% of incidents of rape never result in anyone being convicted.”

          The vast majority of rapes go unconvicted because it’s an exceptionally difficult crime to get enough evidence to convict someone for.

          If you’re trying to argue that anything more than a extremely tiny minority of men approve of rape, you need to get a grip.

          • ughhhhh

            Not sure which specific study Alyson is referring to but a lot has been written on the subject of the effects of sexist and rape jokes. Here’s one at least. And a short google search (had you bothered to do so yourself) will unearth many more:

            http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1018868913615

            And you are grossly incorrect in your final assertion. More than a tiny minority of men approve of rape:

            http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022

            [tldr: Nearly one in three college men admit they might rape a woman if they knew no one would find out and they wouldn’t face any consequences, according to a new study conducted by researchers at the University of North Dakota.

            But, when the researchers actually used the word “rape” in their question, those numbers dropped much lower — suggesting that many college men don’t associate the act of forcing a woman to have sex with them with the crime of committing rape.]

            Clearly you have barely scratched the surface of literature on this topic, otherwise you wouldn’t be spouting such ill-informed generalisations.

            Rapists are normal people. Rapists are not always (and not usually) a stranger holding a knife down an alleyway. Rapists are students, sexual assaulters are students. As much as it is uncomfortable to face these facts, burying our heads in the sand and avoiding a frank discussion on this topic achieves nothing.

            • brookstyle

              cherry pickings

            • disqus_QL05BqU79X

              Fake research, same as Duluth-Model domestic violence. Sorry.

          • Kathy

            Tom, stop asking people for citations when you won’t provide any yourself.

        • brookstyle

          93 percent huh? Because YOU know all these cases were verifiable rapes?

        • disqus_QL05BqU79X

          Someone’s controlling your brain. Opposite. Opposite. Opposite.

  • Guilty By Your Own Words

    “The only people who’ll turn up will be people who (surprise, surprise) already know when it’s okay to shag someone.”

    And on that criteria you have failed.

  • Alyson Cruise

    Malamuth 1987 – no, people don’t know what consent is, about w third of them are OK with rape because they think it’s not rape. Results repeated dozens of times and validated cross-culturally. But please tell me more about how you’re sure science is wrong!

  • Matthew Sumption

    Your article is bad and you should feel bad

  • Frederick

    I am so thrilled that you get it, here’s a biscuit! But if you learn to choose your targets more wisely, I’ll promise not to invite you to my ‘How not to be a massive twat’ seminar in case your intelligence is offended.

    • Craig Wells

      Clearly it’s a class you should also enrol in

  • Daniel Danger Lee

    Since the majority of boys are raised by mothers, teach women not to raise rapists and inculcate them with ‘toxic masculinity’. Oh can you see what bullshit that is when it’s put in those words?

  • Agreed

    It is a minuscule minority of men who ruin it for everyone. I will not be going and neither will 99% of men who are aware of what is acceptable and not acceptable. It’s patronising and insulting.

    “look at the statistics to see that amongst your peers there are a sizeable number of people who do commit these crimes”.

    Blatantly bullshit statement. There are no statistics that shed light on what proportion of Russell Group uni students COMMIT sexual offences. Such statistics would be very difficult to gather for obvious reasons.

    The stats about sexual violence on campus are about how many women have experienced inappropriate sexual contact etc.

    That’s ignoring the glaring methodological flaws in the studies e.g. Being self reported, counting “unwanted sexual advances” as rape etc.

    • Agreed

      Opps

      counting “unwanted sexual advances” as harassment*

  • Laura

    This article is tantamount to hate speech. 1 in 5 students at universities have experienced rape, so clearly many men (perhaps even most) do not understand the boundaries of consent with women. It is absolutely disgusting. More drastic action needs to be taken in making women and minorities feel safer on campus – disbanding most male sports teams and social clubs would be a good start, but I think we should look at reducing the number of white men admitted to university (many of whom are there only there as a product of their own privilege). Most men I have spoken to are not even aware of that if the girl is over the drink/drive limit, she is UNABLE to consent to sex and that is RAPE.

    • Nothing to see here

      Just satire that hits a little too close to home…

    • Trey

      I do not think you know what the definition of “hate speech” is.

      • Laura

        Both myself and other commenters on this article have expressed that this article makes us feel unsafe. Universities and The Tab (a student publication) should be safe spaces and this is in breach of that, it should be retracted and the author should not only give an apology, but be expelled if he does not attend these consent workshops.

        • Craig Wells

          ‘Someone’s opinion makes me feel unsafe wah wah wah’

        • Jon Alderson

          Either trolling (in which case masterfully on the fine line between believable extremeist and moronic) or genuine opinion. If latter, seek help.

          Universities are places for free speech and learning above all else. They are not there to pander to the mental insecurities of all who go there. Safe spaces can and should be provided from physical harm, and smaller spaces can and should be provided for those mentally at risk from certain aspects of University life. However, that’s it.

          A post on the Internet which happens to be from a student publication does not qualify as needing a safe space (i.e. being erased from the Internet). Your entire university does not qualify as a safe space wherein you can police areas you aren’t even standing in or going to. Freedom of speech does not entitle someone to stand on your campus doorstep yelling “I am a rapist and you’re next”, but it absolutely does entitle someone to their opinion that they, themselves, are not a rapist and they don’t see the point of the consent workshops.

          Similarly, talks by visiting guests with whom you disagree. Other students are entitled to hear their opinion – your safe space is not going to the talk. Hate speech is enshrined in law, and if someone is genuinely promoting hate speech, report them to the police and let them deal with it.

          Otherwise, shut up.

    • Tom

      Even though this is obvious satire, it’s scary that most feminists actually believe this.

      • Chris

        How is it satire? What exactly is it satirising?

        • Tom

          It’s satirising the toxic side of feminism

          • Craig Wells

            “The toxic side” is a little redundant there

            • Tom

              What do you mean?

              • Craig Wells

                Because all sides of feminism are toxic…

                • Tom

                  I wouldn’t agree with that. I’ve spoken to a lot of reasonable feminists and would probably at a stretch consider myself one.

                  • Craig Wells

                    The principles and ideology of moderate feminism is exactly what paves the way for radical feminism. Both are the same poison, just one is in small doses and has to accumulate before it damages you, and the other kills you instantly. I suggest you reevaluate why one sect of feminism is good and others bad. They both have the same evil root.

                    • Tom

                      That’s why I said at a stretch. I wouldn’t say what you point out is an inherent problem with feminism as an ideology, rather it’s just a problem with the way the movement is playing out right now.

                    • Craig Wells

                      Then I’m afraid you are ignorant of the history of feminism. First and second wave feminism have both had their radical groups of the sort that you would call toxic. It is not a problem of modern feminism. It is inextricably linked to the ideology.

                    • Tom

                      Every ideology has radicals. I think you’re making the mistake of confusing the ideology with the movement.

                    • Craig Wells

                      The movement cannot be separated from the ideology. Every movement is based upon an idea, and those ideas govern the actions of the movements.

                    • Tom

                      It’s too complicated of a debate to be had here when I’m currently arguing with someone else so I’ll have to just agree to disagree

                    • For Bleep Sake

                      I’m trying to figure out why you consider yourself “at a stretch” a feminist. I certainly cannot tell that from your comments. You must be one of those mens’ rights guys who pretend to have a feminist mindset even “at a stretch” so you can score cookies. I don’t blame you. Cookies are delicious.

          • Chris

            I don’t think “satire” means what you think it means.

            • Tom

              It’s satire. The person who made that comment is pretending to be a radical feminist and, in doing so, mocking their views.

              • Chris

                Oh, you were talking about the comment rather than the article. I still don’t believe that it’s satire.

                • Tom

                  Often when people satire utterly fucking retarded groups of people, it can be confused for a legitimate comment. It took me a while to realise it was satire too!

                  • Chris

                    Why do you think it’s satire?

                    • Tom

                      Because it’s exposing the extreme idiocy of radical feminists in a way that even radical feminists themselves wouldn’t do.

    • Jon Alderson

      Uh, the 1 in 5 figure is one of the most heavily debunked figures in the history of statistics. It is categorically false and even the researchers who came up with it are concerned how out of context it has been taken.

      • Someone

        Uhm, yes and no. Still, the figures are high. I work as an officer who deals with these kinds of incidents and you would be surprised by the volumes of stories you hear, I would be far from surprised if that figure were true

  • Sophia

    this is absolute rubbish, but the cherry on top is the ‘do I look like a rapist?’ comment. what does he think a rapist looks like, as if there is a set appearance of one??? spare me. consent issues are huge in UK universities, and most rape incidences are from people close to you/you know personally, not from some hooded guy in an alleyway

  • Elly

    This is a classic example of the arrogance that leads (often men, who are taught to think that it is ‘hurtful’ or insulting to be told that they don’t know something) to misread situations and assume consent where there is none. Your article paints the notion of rape as a black and white one, where rapists are evil people with no empathy. The point of consent workshops is to tackle the more common situations where, for example, women feel unable to express themselves, and silence is taken for consent. The fact that you haven’t acknowledged the subtleties of situations shows that there is still awareness to be raised, and that consent workshops are needed. Get off YOUR high horse!!!

    • Tom

      Could you give an example of a situation of rape or sexual assault in which you could reasonably assume that the man isn’t aware that what he’s doing is wrong?

      • Sophia

        a girl and a guy go for drinks together at a party. she gets a bit drunk, but is good at hiding it. they are getting on well, they go upstairs. they start to get intimate, him not noticing that actually she is far more drunk than he. she realises she does not want to go through with it, however is too drunk to gather a conscious thought to do anything about it. he just thinks they are still having a “wild time” at the party and he has done nothing wrong.
        there you go

        • Tom

          If the male is too drunk to gather a conscious thought, he is also too drunk to consent, therefore it is not rape.

          • Someone

            The person who initiates is the person making the conscious decision to rape. So yes, you can rape even when you are unable to give consent. And you can be raped too.

            • Tom

              By your logic, if a heavily drunk woman far too drunk to consent comes on to me, and we have sex, she is the rapist?

              What you’re saying sounds worryingly like rape apology.

              You cannot make a conscious decision to rape if you don’t have the ability to consent. Use a little common sense.

              • Someone

                If she initiates and you don’t consent, yes, she would be sexually assaulting you / raping you (depending on law but both punishable to equal levels).

                How is it rape apology? I’m saying that a very drunk person cannot consent, therefore initiating sex with them is theoretically rape, because they can’t say they want it. However, the person who initiates on another person who isn’t consenting is committing rape – regardless of their state of intoxication.

                • Tom

                  Haha, good luck with that one. If I have sex with a woman who is far too drunk to consent, and I am also too drunk to consent but she is the one who initiates, you can 100% bet that feminists and society in general will see me as a rapist taking advantage of a drunk woman.

                  But on a more serious note, I simply don’t agree with you. If two people have sex, and neither of them is capable of consenting, rape did not take place. It doesn’t matter who originally initiated or what position they’re in.

                  • Someone else

                    Technically, she would be the rapist. But I highly doubt that case would make it to court anyway, if you were both drunk but not so much that you felt able to consent then I doubt you’d be taking it to court. If one person is so intoxicated they can’t move or speak, then yeah, they probably aren’t initiating and thus more vulnerable to rape. Anyway, the point isn’t about reaching a right or wrong answer because it is hard to arrive at one, but to consider how you define the boundary and how best to fit consent into this – eg. this situation is a really grey area, so maybe here it would be best to seek enthusiastic consent, ie-do you really want to do this? do you prefer to wait till we’re sober? – and therefore leave the grey area and know for sure whether the other person wants to have sex or not. This is what the workshops are for. Discussing these scenarios, what we think about them, and what would you do to make it more clearcut. I don’t think it is from an angle of “yes, in this case so and so is gonna be convicted” or anything like that, but to ensure that in all cases, we are having consensual sex which is a good thing. x

                  • Sophia

                    “you can 100% bet” what a way to start an argument based on fact. you are really scraping the barrel here tom

          • Sophia

            if a male is too drunk to consent, yet somehow is able enough to initiate sex with another drunk individual then yes he is fucking able to take the consequences. equally if a woman takes advantage of a drunk guy, she as well is liable for it. you keep making it about men and women whereas it has nothing to do with what gender you identify (or dont identify with) its about CONSENT and you clearly know fuck all about it so you should probably and ironically go to these workshops

            • Tom

              You do realise that in many cases of drunk rape, the victim was the one who initiated the sex, right? Initiating sex does not mean consent. You’re the only misinformed one here. Disgustingly misinformed.

        • Tom

          I love how you haven’t responded to this.

      • Elly

        Sure. If in a sexual situation with a new partner, the woman is silent and shows signals of reluctance (say responding passively/with frigidity) which the man, who is not aware of the subtleties of consent, does not pick up on. If we are told that rape is black and white, then the man might only think of something as rape if there is physical resistance from the woman. A more specific example could be a case where a man has sexual contact with his wife whilst she is sleeping. It’s easy to say, ‘Oh I would never do that!’, but the point is that there are cases which without the required sensitivity to consent issues (which is being brought to light by the topic being talked about more often, e.g. in consent workshops), would go unnoticed as cases of rape.

    • Laura

      I fully agree. Look guys it’s simple yet you don’t understand. If she is drunk and you have sex you are a rapist. It seems more of you need these consent workshops. Furthermore, science has already proven 1 in 3 students WOULD rape if they could get away with it: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html

      We have to bring this number down and educate men that RAPE IS NOT OK. Women are unsafe on UK campuses.

      • Jon Alderson

        “Science” has proven 1 in 3 students would rape if they could get away with it?

        Bullshit. A single study has proven that 31.7% of AMERICAN students would force a woman to have sex (i.e. rape) if there were no consequences. But that is an unrealistic question. There ARE consequences to forcing women to have sex – not least it is illegal and immoral.

        When explicitly asked about whether they would “rape” if no consequences, the number fell to 13%, still far too high of course.

        And I say again, these were American students. The fact you link a study and then say “women are unsafe on UK campuses” tells me all I need to know about how little you care about statistics and fairness and how much you care about militant dogma.

  • Elly

    Also, consent workshops aren’t just about ‘teaching’. They’re to create an atmosphere of awareness that might empower women to speak up in situations that they aren’t comfortable in, and make men start second guessing more often.

    • Hot Cosby

      I agree with Elly. Women are stupid, fragile and immature creatures, who shouldn’t be expected to take responsibility for anything. If a man gets it wrong, because she seemed into it, but was actually way more drunk than she seemed, he needs to get his crystal ball out and make a proper judgement.

      • Duck

        No, because consent workshops are about preventing rape, which can happen to either gender – or in queer relationships…

        No need to generalise one gender when these workshops are made for everybody.
        And yes, they also help to make (potential) victims realise that indeed, certain things which may have happened to them / situations they may be in do constitute rape.

      • Elly

        Take that view to a consent workshop, and help with their push to raise awareness around issues of consent! All views welcome. Although, you completely ignored what I said. Did I say anything about a woman being drunk and ‘seeming into it’? No! I think being drunk is a grey area and would be interested to hear views about where consent comes into those situations. What I did say, was that consent ISN’T thought about in terms of anything that is not an overt physical reaction (shouting/screaming no in a sexual situation), and this is the fault of a society which teaches men that they deserve certain things and women not to speak up. Look at the examples I gave below. If men bulldoze into situations where a woman is uncomfortable (arguing that she ‘seemed into it’), this should constitute rape. This is not to say that women aren’t able to speak up, but that it is often difficult to given the social context, and this needs to be drawn attention to.

      • Elly

        Also, if a man get’s it wrong, don’t you think he should take responsibility for that? You’re basically saying that if a man get’s it wrong, he should be excused, and then light heartedly dismissing the problem. Classic sense of male entitlement!

        • Kathy

          He probably thinks that checking if she’s into it is ‘unsexy’

      • Kathy

        Maybe the guy should have asked, or is that too unreasonable?

  • Chris

    The fact that you think there is a certain way a rapist looks is pretty much proof that you need these classes. Also if it really is the most insulting thing you’ve experienced in the last few years you must lead an incredibly priveleged life.

    • Craig Wells

      “A joke you made means you clearly need to be told how not to rape someone”

      • Chris

        Is it a joke? He’s saying we can tell what a rapist looks like just by looking at them. I don’t see how this is a joke, espescially considering lots of people believe this, and lots of rapists get away with it because they convince everyone else that they are a decent guy and so couldn’t possibly have done such a thing

        • Craig Wells

          No he’s making fun of “this is what a feminist looks like” signs. But well done for being so obtuse as to not realise that.

          • Chris

            He’s using the same format sure, but there’s nothing to suggest he doesn’t actually believe it, especially considering the rest of the article.

            • Craig Wells

              Well he’s also making fun of the notion that men are potential rapists I.e. looking at a man and thinking “he needs to be taught not to rape ” I. E. The very thing you are advocating.

  • josh

    Great article, everyone saying otherwise is pathetic. As he says “get off your fucking high horse”. There are so many more constructive and helpful things to be a part of.

    • Judas Iscariot

      … There always are “better things” to be doing, that doesn’t mean we should stop doing good things, does it?

  • disqus_PGWGfJ9Vqs

    If it looks like a rapist, talks like a rapist, writes like a rapist then what is it?

    A) Not a rapist
    B) A rapist

    Answer: B) A rapist

  • L H

    “I already know what is and what isn’t consent. I also know about those more nuanced situations where consent isn’t immediately obvious […]”

    The sheer amount of ignorance in this article would be laughable, if it wasn’t so disgusting.

    Honestly though, the picture is what offends me the most – are there no white, middle-class rapists? Are you somehow exempt? Do all rapists look the same – or do they wear some sort of badge?

    You assume that you know everything about the issue of consent, yet you are the exact type of person, with your (presumably) well-meaning but pushy attitude, who would benefit from these classes! Understanding consent, means understanding the opinions and feelings of others – and you can’t seem to do that..

    I would recommend that you attend and educate yourself.

  • http://www.gabrielquotes.org.uk/ Gabriel

    Perhaps the author thinks that consent workshops should only be compulsory for those people who ticked the ‘I am a potential rapist’ box on their enrolment papers?

    Obviously they need to be for everyone or the system becomes pointless, just like all lawyers need to be regulated, not just dishonest ones because obviously one can’t determine in advance whether or not they’re dishonest.

    • Craig Wells

      The point is that even if only rapists went to the workshop, teaching them consent wouldn’t stop them raping.

      • http://www.gabrielquotes.org.uk/ Gabriel

        [citation needed]

        • Craig Wells

          Nono, citations are needed for the evidence saying it DOES work. If you are going to argue for the existence of consent classes, the onus is on YOU to prove that they are not a complete waste of time.

          • http://www.gabrielquotes.org.uk/ Gabriel

            But naturally you do have a citation for your assertion that the concept doesn’t work, otherwise you wouldn’t have said it, so I’d be interested to read it. Always like learning new things.

            • Craig Wells

              That is not how logic works. If there is no evidence for something, it is logical to conclude that that thing does not exist. Ergo, if there is no evidence that you can teach men not to rape, you cannot teach men not to rape.

              • http://www.gabrielquotes.org.uk/ Gabriel

                OK, guess you must be absolutely right then. I take it all back.

                *rolls eyes*

                • Craig Wells

                  It’s ironic that you deride what I say without actually refuting it. I mean, if you think just mocking people will make you feel good go ahead, but it’s not really the best way to win an argument.

                  • http://www.gabrielquotes.org.uk/ Gabriel

                    Well, I defer to your expert judgement on the best way to win an argument.

                    • Craig Wells

                      Thanks

                    • Lol at know-all students

                      only this isn’t maths so not sure your logic is that great in this situation.

                    • Craig Wells

                      Lol @ people who think logic is only applicable to maths and isn’t a basic tenet of all understanding and communication

                    • lol at your face

                      Hee hee

                  • Kathy

                    No, just refusing to provide evidence and shouting ‘logic’ is the way to win the argument.

          • Dan Wheatley

            how about some reason; we have 2 options – consent classes (for everyone) or no consent classes. The best case scenario for the first is that at least some rapes are prevented, and the worst case is some people are inconvenienced. The best case for the second (ie generally the status quo) is just no inconvenience but equally the rapes that could have been preventable actually happening. So: fewer rapes and some inconvenience, or no inconvenience and the same number of rapes as now?

  • qwertyuiop

    One of the most ignorant, misinformed, short-sighted and downright incorrect articles I’ve ever read. I would love to itemise everything that is wrong with it but I honestly don’t know where I’d start. George Lawlor you are a downright embarrassment and I hope for your sake that you never end up talking about this with one of the 100,000 adults that gets raped in the UK every year or you’ll get a serious slap. Next time the Tab runs completely dry and has to resort to one of your rubbish stories, please do take a minute to google the subject first in order to avoid publicising your own ignorance.

    • Craig Wells

      Strange how you could have been informative end educated him on what you assert he is ignorant about. And yet you didn’t, and made up fantasies about people violently assaulting him. Strange

      • qwertyuiop

        “made up fantasies about people violently assaulting him”? Don’t be ridiculous, I’m making the point that his cavalier attitude towards the importance of awareness is downright offensive to anyone who has been raped.

    • Tom

      Haha. Yeah sure mate. Let’s punish and patronise all men for the actions of a tiny minority, and if anyone dare speak up against it they’re a rape apologist!

      • Cameron Mason

        Both men and women attend these courses and if you cared to attend one you would realise that it’s not at all about ‘punishing and patronising men’

      • Sophia

        “punish” oh spare me, as if receiving a fucking facebook invite is considered as punishment, id love to hear how you have been “punished” because of it

    • VictoryMonk

      Oh, it’s like men are not allowed to have an opinion on the matter without being insulted? He raised important points, and rightly so.

  • Jon Alderson

    Brave. While I think consent classes are healthy and optional, I do think young men are growing up in a culture which is treating them all like potential rapists. That kind of gender-based assumption isn’t tolerated elsewhere in society, even where there is some merit for it. It’s a big psychological burden and some compassion for that would be useful.

    • Potential Pyromaniac

      What about fire inductions? Are we all potential pyromaniacs? I mean, I know I shouldn’t be doing things that lead to fires, why do I need to sit through the induction? It is so insulting!

      • Gary White

        It’s more like being invited to a class where you’re told repeatedly that it is bad to set buildings on fire. Like, “If I throw a petrol bomb at a school, is that arson? Yes it is. If I pour petrol in the letter box of a house and light it, is that arson? Yes it is. Setting buildings on fire is bad.”

        People that set buildings on fire aren’t going to be convinced to not do so because they once attended a class where they were told setting buildings on fire is bad.

        • .

          it’s interesting that, having had the idea explained to you in sensible terms (it’s exactly like a fire induction), you put in the effort to twist the sensible explanation back into some complete nonsense no-one could ever thing in order to denounce it

          • Gary White

            Or, I disagree with you as to what a reasonable metaphor for the situation is.

            One, fire induction, is about safety and the unpredictable consequences of otherwise innocuous actions (forgetting to turn off the gas/blow out a candle), the other involves a deliberate action: setting buildings on fire. Rape isn’t an unfortunate consequence of an otherwise innocuous action, it is a deliberate action. My metaphor makes more sense.

        • Terrence S M Popp

          Here is why the 3rd wave feminists have such a big voice. them men of today have been raised by women and here is a comedy video of what you get. manjinas and white knights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TkiWl_rsVg 1

      • Terrence S M Popp

        comedy vid on feminism and rape “rape religion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanGv1j-sSE 14

    • Anon

      You know what’s worse though? Not being able to go about your daily life in fear that the potential for being raped is an actual possibility.

      • Craig Wells

        If you live in constant fear of being raped, you need therapy.

        • Anon

          Sorry, it’s just the harsh reality of being part of a society where rape is trivialised, which, you may wish to ignore, for your convenience, after all, ignorance IS bliss.

          • Craig Wells

            Rape is considered one of the worst if not THE WORST crime imaginable. That’s not trivial.

            • Anon

              You’re not convincing me that you actually share that view.

              • Micqey

                This is exactly the problem with feminism. It’s seen as an offense if I’m not actively engaged in convincing the world that I think Rape is a serious crime. . .

                I personally think it’s more offensive to be actively engaged in convincing the world that men are naturally rapists who need reform from the moment they are born.

              • William Gruff

                Anon wrote:

                ‘You’re not convincing me that you actually share that view.‘

                And you are?

            • Jon Alderson

              Well, I think once crimes get serious it’s difficult to rank them. I could never get the funding to do it, because it’s abhorrent, but I imagine if you did a study of rape survivors and asked them “would you rather be raped, murdered, or have your sight lost in an acid attack”, the results might be surprising to some.

          • Jon Alderson

            Rape is trivialised by feminist activists who talk of “rape culture” and use the word to describe things which are not rape, such as “visual rape”.

          • disqus_QL05BqU79X

            It’s trivialised by feminists. The words “rape” and “abuse” are now used so blithely it’s untrue, but ONLY for women-as-victims.

        • Guest

          If you don’t you are very lucky and should acknowledge that privilege. It might be an interesting exercise for you to ask 20 women you know if they have ever feared being raped or attacked, and ask them how frequently they check over their shoulder when they walk home, or text their friends to check everyone arrived home safely, walk a different way even if it takes longer to avoid badly lit areas. You might be surprised.

          • disqus_QL05BqU79X

            That’s because they’re indoctrinated to fear men. It really is that simple.

          • RV

            Women are afraid for sure, but that doesn’t mean they are in danger at anywhere near those levels.

          • William Gruff

            What you’re describing is an irrational fear, a phobia in fact, since the perception of risk is not supported by the number of actual instances of rape. That women ‘fear’ something does not mean they are actually at risk of it.

            As an example, some years ago, perhaps thirty or more, a survey suggested that while young black men in London were two hundred times more likely to be assaulted than elderly white women, the perception of risk was almost exactly the reverse. Media reporting of incidents was likewise disproportionate.

            If women live irrationally in fear of rape they need psychiatric help. They cannot be helped by teaching young men who do not need it ‘not to rape’.

        • Kathy

          It’s called ‘living as a female’

          • Lizzie Cornish

            I’m a female, Kathy…and I’ve NEVER lived in fear of being raped, not EVER. I’m deeply appalled at what Third Wave Feminists are doing to men at present. It’s obscene to imply that ALL men are potential rapists and ALL women are ‘victims, victims, victims’ !!!

            Seems to me these women aren’t right in the head…

            Time for men to stand up together and say “ENOUGH!!”…and to also refuse to have sex (we used to call it making love, as love came into it, backalong) with women until they come to their senses.

            Tell you what, get the feminists to start telling women to drink less, to keep themselves safe (OOH, Lizzie, that’s ‘victim blaming, that is!)…and to accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY for the CONSEQUENCES of their actions, as my generation did.

            Today, you want women to see EVERYTHING as being the fault of men…

            It’s obnoxious…it’s ignorant, it’s fecking INSULTING and it’s WRONG, in EVERY way.

            Get over yourself, kiddo….and tell your mates to do the same.

            Men matter AS MUCH as women…and if EVERYONE started drinking less, showing respect to themselves, to each other…and went back to The Old Ways of getting to know someone, NOT having ‘sex’ with ‘strangers’ ad infinitum…most folks would be a LOT happier, other than most Feminists, who have NO emotional connection to men, no spiritual connection to making love, seeing it merely as a bodily function, akin to any other…and who have encouraged many women to dress and behave like total sluts, to have sex with any Tom Dick and Harry’s dick, whilst ensuring that next morning, they take Tom, Dick AND Harry, to court for raping them, after a drunken night of consensual sex….

            Have a good day…

            • http://www.fashionslave.co.uk/ sophie milner

              Lizzie, you are simply another example of a woman who has misunderstood that feminism is a movement fighting for women to have the same social, cultural, and political rights as men. It’s about equality. To address your comment… You’re right in saying that men matter as much as women do. And women matter as much as men do. Feminism is about equality. It’s women like you who skew perceptions of feminism which keep us back. I’m a feminist, I have a great connection with men as I see them as equals, sex with my boyfriend is way more than just a bodily function, but feminism is about women having equal rights to act the same way as men do and be accepted in the same way. What’s wrong with that? Do you not think men and women should be treated and accepted as equals?
              Now please, get out of your narrow little box, pick up a book, and learn something.

              • Terrence S M Popp

                comedy vid on feminism and rape “rape religion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanGv1j-sSE 2

              • http://banterloud.com/ armenia4ever

                Apparently all the feminists on this thread think feminism is about teaching men not to rape and to check their privilege.

                Lots of equality here.

              • Lizzie Cornish

                EQUALITY? HeForShe…but tell me, Sophie, please, do, WHERE is the SheForHe?

                Equality? Two people, a man, a woman, both a bit drunk, have consensual, enjoyable sex. Next morning, SHE cries ‘RAPE!”, for only HE is guilty.

                Equality? A woman can say whatever she wants to a man, but if a man DARES to do this to a woman, he is lambasted on Twitter/FB, his life torn apart, etc.etc…

                Equality? FGM campaign, but WHERE is the one for the little boys?

                Equality? “Women NEVER lie about sexual abuse, Lizzie!” Thus, ALL men ARE guilty?

                Equality? A woman can do whatever she wants, with NO reason to accept a single consequence of her actions. A man will end up in prison, his life wrecked!

                Equality? A woman is raped. She is supported by endless charities, police, cps, courts. She receives endless sympathy and help. A MAN suffers false allegations of rape/abuse and his life becomes HELL, either he is thrown into prison, or left on the outside, to deal with lynch mob gangs. Even if the woman OWNS UP, she receives NO punishment, more often than not, yet he is given NO HELP, NO SUPPORT, NO £COMPENSATION, he remains on police records for decades, if not for LIFE, where any employer can access these details and many, many people remain believing that he IS/WAS guilty, for ‘there’s no smoke without fire’…Right?

                EQUALITY???????????

                With respect, you don’t know the MEANING of the word, nor does any feminist!

                When you look it up, please also learn the meaning of HYPOCRISY and MISANDRY too.

                Thank you…and I sincerely hope YOU get out of YOUR narrow Feminist World and start PROTECTING the very men you say you love and are friends with, because trust me, Sister, they are ALL in GRAVE DANGER now!

            • Cher Reynolds

              Wow you are an awful human who has got it all so wrong.

              • Terrence S M Popp

                comedy vid on feminism and rape “rape religion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanGv1j-sSE 1

              • Lizzie Cornish

                An awful human? And you know this, because…….? Pray tell me, Cher, what exactly *have* I got wrong?

                • Cher Reynolds

                  I’m not getting into it with you, you’re too nuts and angry to discuss something rationally. Just pray to god that women who think like you are a minority.

          • RV

            It’s called being living as a neurotic. Btw I am glad you are posting here, your replies are very helpful.

        • Angela p

          An alternative solution, and more viable one, is to teach men not to rape.

          • disqus_QL05BqU79X

            Nope. Men don’t need it. Our DNA programs us not to hurt women. Almost no men ever do. Women need teaching. They’re by far the greatest abusers behind closed doors.

            • Craig Martin

              “…Our DNA programs us not to hurt women.”

              This.
              It is innate.

          • Jamie Taylow

            Let’s teach murderers not to murder while we’re at it. Drug dealers not to deal drugs. If only we could teach people that crime is bad the world would be rid of all crime.

            Very naive, stupid, and condescending view of how the world works, Angela.

          • William Gruff

            The real need is to teach women not to make false rape allegations, and to punish severely those who do.

      • Jon Alderson

        Men are overwhelmingly the victims of violent crime, gunshot death, suicide. I manage to not go through my daily life in fear of those things.

        • Alex

          Get back to us when 1 in 4 men are victims of gunshots, as is the case with women and sexual assaults.

          • brookstyle

            debunked stat

            • disqus_QL05BqU79X

              Yep, those stats were invented in the 1980s by Mary Koss for Ms. Magazine; a publication funded by the CIA. The former editor, Gloria Steinem, was a CIA informant before becoming a feminist.

              The likelihood of an adult woman being raped in the UK is almost zero. Around 80% of rape victims are male, too.

              • nomis

                You can only claim the stat is garbage if you drop the “and sexual assault” part. The only reason it ever gets debunked is by defining it as strictly “penetrative sex rape”. And even that is far greater than 0%.

                Add in all the harassment, forced touching, following, groping on crowded transit, and inline threats, and you have a culture which is decidedly tolerant of the idea of rape.

                And, your 80% stat is completely made up, but for the record, 80% of zero is still zero.

                • Craig Martin

                  “…your 80% stat is completely made up, but for the record, 80% of zero is still zero.”

                  You’re stating that 0 men get raped?
                  Absolute ignorance on your part there.

                  • disqus_QL05BqU79X

                    In fairness to “nomis,” I will concur that I phrased the earlier comment badly. The LIKELIHOOD of a women being raped is staggeringly small. Feminists say 1-in-4 or something silly. They’re just sock-puppets who’ll believe anything that sounds impressive.

                    But the amount of people being raped is at least 80% male. As I say, a low estimate from my research. Almost all rape claims made by women are indeed false, however. The prevalence of that depends on how easy it is to make the claim and get away with it. The UK ranks high, but not as high as India where the state pays women who claim rape even before a case is opened. Lowest is probably China, which operates an agonistic justice system; if you lie about a crime, YOU get the sentence.

                    Women do get raped by men, yes, but less now than ever. Broadband and wireless internet have done their job there. Thanks, porn!

                    Lesbians are actually the worst rapists of all, of course.

                • disqus_QL05BqU79X

                  Not all. Plenty of genuine studies prove this. It’s a low estimate, actually. Around 80% of all rape takes place in prisons, the military and institutions where people are forcibly enclosed together – almost all of whom are males raping males. In women’s prisons, however, the per capita rates are higher. There’s just so few women in prison that, by number, 20 times more men are raped. In open society women rape men more than the reverse. Even the US CDC’s last study showed this.

                  With all due respect, I’ve been researching this for 15 years. Truth is not a popularity contest.

                  • nomis

                    Fair enough, statistically speaking. But solving the problem of sexual assault on a campus setting is not helped by examining prison or military statistics, just as it would not be helped by examining data from the Middle East in the 13th century. This blog post, and this discussion is about what consent looks like on campus, not in prison.

                    Do you have a link for the CDC data you referenced?

                • Jamie Taylow

                  I think suicide is probably a bigger issue than someone touching you on public transport, don’t you? The male suicide rate is FOUR TiMES that of the female suicide rate, and continues to rise year on year. Look at the toxic feminist society we’ve created (and continue to create) and it’s no surprise why.

              • Terrence S M Popp

                comedy vid on feminism and rape “rape religion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanGv1j-sSE 8

            • Terrence S M Popp

              comedy vid on feminism and rape “rape religion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanGv1j-sSE 0

          • Lizzie Cornish

            Rubbish! The figures feminists come out with are total CRAP! STOP your WAR upon men. Get psychological help for your Misandry and leave men, young men and boys alone…STOP putting them down all the time. We’re sick of it..and I’m a woman…Get over yourselves!

            • Terrence S M Popp

              Here is why the 3rd wave feminists have such a big voice. them men of today have been raised by women and here is a comedy video of what you get. manjinas and white knights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TkiWl_rsVg 2

              • Fezzik

                Intelligent guys who know about consent versus semi-literate “good ol’ boys” who shout “white knight” instead of coming out of the dark (stupid) ages…

          • RV

            It’s a bogus stat used as a pretext to peddle this nonsense . All feminist memes are easily debunked evan by the most generous assessments. It’s nothing but man hating at its core.

        • Angela p

          men are victims of violent crimes perpetrated by other men. Violent criminals are overwhelmingly men. Why don’t men speak up against this situation if it affects them so much? Why are they complacent instead of finding ways to reduce male violence?

      • Tom

        “x is worse than y so y isn’t a problem”

        Ridiculous logical fallacy. The fact that women experience far more rape than men DOES NOT justify punishing/blaming all men for the actions of a tiny minority, and you should seek genuine mental help if you think that it does.

        • Kathy

          When the majority of rapsists and perpetrators of violent crime are men, you have to start thinking why that is.

          • Craig Martin

            It still does not justify the blaming.

          • Lizzie Cornish

            When the majority of false allegations are made by women, you have to start thinking why THAT is….

            • Terrence S M Popp

              another college rape BS rap, false alligations with no consiquences = life destroying oppression but hay they are men so who cares right comedy vid follows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3cukYMblg 1

          • disqus_QL05BqU79X

            “Rapsists?” Men commit more violent crime on men (and property) because of the way boys are subjugated as youths. Their routes into such crimes are caused by staggeringly higher rates of neglect and abuse compared to girls.

            Women commit the majority of interpersonal crime behind closed doors. Lesbians are the most violent demographic of all in this respect. This has been known since studies began. Whether or not you wish to believe or disbelieve is of no consequence. Truth is not subject to a popularity contest.

          • RV

            men are not the majority of rapists. And women are just as likely to be abused, at the very least, by female partners as male, and the women least likely to be abused are those in heterosexual marriages, and women are far less likely to be the victim of a violent crime than a man, you will have to start thinking about why these things are the way they are.

          • Tom

            Literally completely irrelevant to my point

        • Terrence S M Popp

          another college rape BS rap, false alligations with no consiquences = life destroying oppression but hay they are men so who cares right comedy vid follows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3cukYMblg

      • VictoryMonk

        Oh please, rape numbers are all-time low. Check the FBI report if you don’t believe me. Don’t uncritically buy that rape-culture hysteria.

        • Terrence S M Popp

          another college rape BS rap, false alligations with no consiquences = life destroying oppression but hay they are men so who cares right comedy vid follows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3cukYMblg 2

    • Elly

      Brave? What’s brave is walking down the street at night as a female, past a group of cat callers. “That kind of gender biased assumption is not tolerated elsewhere”?? Um, hello? Sexism towards women which happens everyday? If men feeling uncomfortable is the price of empowering women in situations and oppression which remain UNACKNOLEDGED in mainstream society, then I think it’s worth it. You worrying about your potential to misread signals is just a symptomof you recognising your privilege.

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        Nice typing. Women cat-call men as well. Nobody bothers to note that. I wonder why?

        Sexism TOWARD women does not exist. Women are the benefaciaries of sexism and are privileged over men in every social facet of life. Some basic facts (not myths) are collated at http://www.realsexism.com

      • Terrence S M Popp

        another college rape BS rap, false alligations with no consiquences = life destroying oppression but hay they are men so who cares right comedy vid follows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3cukYMblg 3

        • Elly

          I do care about false allegations! I don’t deny that those can happen, and that women are wrong in those situations. However, it’s crazy to jump from the fact that these cases sometimes happen to the view that men are not privileged in society!!! The fact is that most rape cases are dismissed/made light of for the very reasons that people here are listing: that the woman ‘seemed into it’ to the man, or that on entering certain situations women have no right to resist sex. I only argue that consent workshops help to change mainstream views on this. Men are NOT in danger of being oppressed by the legal system with regard to rape cases, whereas women ARE through dismissals and blame.

        • Elly

          No one is fighting a battle against all men. We are merely trying to draw attention to some of the struggles that women go through, which until recently have not been spoken about.

      • Micqey

        Nonsense. The protection of women and children is the basis of our society. The only issues that go unacknowledged in our society are men’s issues and the reason is very simple.

        Men are defined by their ability to accept the intolerable, and accept it with stoicism. A man’s complaint of suffering or injustice is met with derision and minimization, because being hurt or insulted is the antithesis of what we think maleness is.

        When a man complains he is immediately seen as less of a man.

        The only time a man has the ability to increase his ‘maleness’ while complaining is if he is complaining on behalf of women. Do you get that? A man can not complain about his own problems without being seen as less of a man but if he complains about a woman’s problems he can be seen as more of a man. . .

        The fact is that you can choose to ignore men’s issues and even be actively supported by your culture when you attack and belittle men’s issues. . .
        Simultaneously Anita Sarkeesian gets Hundreds of thousands of dollars and a chance to speak at the UN because she thinks video games are sexist. . .

        Who’s gendered oppression is unacknowledged?

        This is a blatant signal of your own privilege as a woman. . . You can choose to check it, or you can choose to believe the lie.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M0MW6ON484

    • Terrence S M Popp

      comedy vid on feminism and rape “rape religion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EanGv1j-sSE

  • Reubeniv

    If they’re going to teach men about asking consent they should teach women about giving consent? Seems only fair with so many false rape allegations.

    • People are tiring

      Consent workshops are for all genders and that is the point duuuuh
      It is about consent, what is it, and for both genders, to make sure to get it.

      So fed up of the genderedness

      • Reubeniv

        Why are they only targeted and made mandatory to male students then? Why are the articles I’ve seen all about offering someone tea and someone being able to refuse it, not about how to properly accept the tea and not accepting the and calling the police the following morning?

        • People are tiring

          Cos it is trying to stop the crime before it starts. And where I’m from consent workshops are mandatory for everyone, they aren’t gender-specific.

          • Sarah

            Absolutely. At least two members of every society and sports exec are required to attend one 90 minute session, regardless of gender, to promote the concept of consent and consensual sex to as many members of the student body as possible, as societies and sports clubs are such a large part of the student experience at Warwick. The claim that the workshops are mandatory for all men only is incorrect. This year it is being offered to freshers for free, completely optionally, in a bid to spread the conversation about consent even further. These free consent workshops have been made possible through backing from the National Union of Students, who have selected Warwick as one of 20 pilot universities for consent workshop schemes. What has changed between this year and last year, as someone who took the training in both years, is a sense of inclusion of EVERYONE into the discussion – including non-binary and transgendered students, as well as ethnic minorities and those from poorer background, to name but a few minority groups whose voices and stories often go unheard and underrepresented. These workshops may not be convenient to your timetable, and they may bring up discussion around sexual assault on campus and beyond, but it truly cannot be argued that they are negative in their approach. Leaving feminism and questions of ‘fairness’ aside, this discussion has more than highlighted the need to bring certain members of our student body out of their own understandings and to appreciate that there are others studying beside them who have very different experiences or opinions and that those experiences or opinions are just as valid as anyone else’s.

            TL;DR – I Heart Consent workshops are creating discussion about students, sex, and consent, in all their forms, and I think that can be nothing but a good thing.

    • Lizzie

      I agree that both genders should go to these events

  • Anon

    @Tom: if you don’t support rape, can you at least try and act like it?

    • Tom

      I am more opposed to rape than probably anyone else in this comments section. It’s something I’m deeply passionate about.

  • Lizzie

    I used to go to Warwick and was assaulted on the way back from Skool Dayz. Whilst 98.5% of the student population aren’t and never will be involved in sexual assault, I think everyone at uni should be made to go to one of these classes. Whilst this ‘aspiring journo’ might think he knows better I’m sure there’s something everyone can learn from these events. With such a massive drinking culture at Warwick we need to have some sort of discussion about consent.

    • Craig Wells

      What can people learn? Where is the evidence that it makes anyone better people and more importantly, where is the evidence that it prevents rape?

      • anon

        And the evidence that it doesn’t?!!!!

        • Craig Wells

          IF YOU WANT TO JUSTIFY THESE USELESS CLASSES, YOU NEED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT THEY WORK. THE LACK OF EVIDENCE IS ENOUGH TO MEAN THAT THEY SHOULDN’T EXIST.

          • Anon 1

            heh heh, what a double standard.

            • Craig Wells

              It’s not a double standard at all? The lack of evidence IS evidence.

              • Anon 1

                Ok, how about we both agree these sessions are trialed, that will then provide the evidence we need to see whether a difference is made or not. Evidence for either side is then provided.

              • Logic summarised

                Lack of evidence = Unknown

                Lack of evidence =/= It doesn’t happen

                Evidence = It happens/doesn’t happen from x sample

          • You fail at logic

            Ummmm Nope

            • Craig Wells

              I don’t fail at logic. If there you want something to happen, the onus is on you to prove why that thing is justified. Nobody else.

          • Sophia

            the amount of people on this thread who have run these classes and said people came up to them thanking them for it and saying they hadnt realised a lot of stuff should be evidence enough??? god do you even read any of the other comments or do you just write something and then salivate over your own words

          • Kathy

            You need to prove they don’t work. Why are you so incredibly defensive about providing evidence?

    • Tom

      You are a disgusting bigot if you want to force all men (who are evidently in your opinion all rapists) to go to consent workshops.

      Grow up.

      • Lizzie

        Hey troll, actually I said most people aren’t and won’t be rapists. I don’t think all men should go I think all students, men and women. Both genders need to learn more about consent, especially when drink is involved.

        • Tom

          We get it Lizzie, you hate men and think all men are potential rapists, that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinions – just please don’t force us to do things we don’t want to do

          (do you not see the irony in forcing people against their will to go to consent classes?)

          • Anon 1

            All I’m reading is: I don’t want to take measures that might prevent rape.
            Not sure I’d want people to see I was advocating this kind of message.

            • Tom

              I will never violate anyone’s consent so whether or not I go to one of these classes will have absolutely zero impact on preventing rape. For the extreme majority of men it’s the exact same.

              I know it’s hard for you to believe because you’ve been brainwashed in to thinking that all men are rapists, but that’s how it is.

              • Anon3

                Maybe you should put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been sexually assaulted and then assess how much the feelings of “all men are rapists” (which no one is saying btw, save yourself) over “if only this person had understood that no means no, that silence does not mean yes, and that me being drunk isn’t a freeway to going with me and that us having sex in the past doesnt mean I want it right now”, y’know? And just cos you think you know it all doesn’t mean everyone does.

                TW: assault
                my ex seemed to love and respect me very much in his words and took ages to get over me when he dumped me, but still decided to rape me because “my body was saying yes, even though I was saying no”
                When years later I explain to him that him pushing on and going ahead despite me saying no, he was quite surprised. Still sure that everyone has this superbly clear?

                • Tom

                  I’m sorry to hear that, but treating every man like a potential rapist is not the right way to combat rape and sexual assault.

                  • Anon3

                    If he had heard the content of those workshops (because he was willing to listen 2 years afterwards to me, he was shocked and he was *very* apologetic for what he did, although this does not undo the fact that he forced himself on me and coerced me despite me saying no, and never yes), it wouldn’t have happened. And it also helped me to understand that it wasn’t quite right either, before I had just blamed myself for not trying harder to push him off, or convince him with words better that no, me being wet doesn’t mean I want sex, it is just my physiology. But no, I did not want to have sex with him (we had broken up), and he did force himself on me and was threatening at the time, despite describing himself as a nice guy, who loved me a lot and wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to me… So honestly, I think there is no way of knowing until it happens, he probably didn’t even think he would ever do that.
                    But anyway, I feel that receiving this information earlier in life would have prevented this one assault in my life (which technically was rape). So, I think they are of value. I’m sure I’m not the only one, and if this system was proposed clearly it didn’t come out of thin air but because for the situations people had been in they felt it could have prevented it. I feel that one case, it could’ve stopped it.

          • Lizzie

            I’m pretty sure anyone who knew me at Warwick would know I didn’t hate men. And I think these classes would work for both genders. If both genders were taught more about consent then there would be less lives ruined by rape, both for victims of rape and for people wrongly accused of rape. These classes aren’t an attack on men, they’re here to prevent a life ruining situation.

            • Tom

              A lot of misandrists don’t consciously hate men. Just like a lot of misogynist don’t consciously hate women. It’s best to think about things with an open mind and consider the effects that various ideas, no matter how well-intended they may be, may have on those that they are directed at.

              Regardless of whether or not this is the intention, these workshops do for all intents and purposes assume that all men are rapists, and that’s how it feels for men.

              • doesnt add up

                No, it just shows the values of the place providing them. It does not make that assumption. You are making that assumption to yourself and assuming that your poor lil’ feelings are more important than the poor lil’ feelings of victims who should just suck it up because they can’t face the real world. Oops. Double standard. Awks Tom.

                • Tom

                  Again you’re making the same fallacious comparison that so many others have. Rape and sexual assault are horrible and they are a particular problem at universities, but that doesn’t justify blaming/punishing all male students for the actions of a tiny minority.

                  • Lizzie

                    Going to these classes isn’t a punishment, it’s a prevention. And it’s not just for men, it’s for women too. If everyone has to go, it’s not just punishing men is it?

                    • Tom

                      Forcing everyone to go out of their way to attend these classes is a punishment. They do the exact same thing to actual rapists, domestic abusers, other criminals etc.

                    • SOmeone

                      Most people enjoy these workshops and find it an interesting discussion if nothing else – many also take something home with them.

                      I don’t see how a one-hour conversation is “punishment”. Are they chemically castrating you in Warwick or something?!

                    • Sophia

                      forcing someone to go to a class is punishment?? how can you honestly say you take rape more seriously than anyone else in this thread, yet you find the thought of going to a class (which everyone is invited to, men, women and whatever you feel you are) is worse than people getting raped. how privileged are you???

                  • Someone

                    They aren’t blaming all male students for it. They recognise there is a problem and there is no sure-profile of who is committing it, so you tell everyone. It doesn’t mean that everyone is a rapist, but as many have pointed out, rapists don’t fit one hooded-guy category. How would you target people for these workshops instead?

        • :)

          I would be deeply concerned about our future as a country if I honestly believed that the vast majority of our students who will be heavily involved in building our future and overcoming the problems of the future were such morons that they didn’t understand the concept of mutual consent.

          Fortunately for my mental health I still have a bit more faith in humanity than that.

          • Lizzie

            I think you’d be really surprised at the number of sexual assault cases there are at Warwick then. As someone who’s both had a good male friend (from Warwick) falsely accused of rape and been sexually assaulted at Warwick, both genders could definitely benefit from these classes. Even if only the minority learns something, surely that’s worth it. If these classes only prevent one rape happening, it’s worth it.

            • Tom

              According to feminists, false rape accusations do not exist, you misogynist bigot.

              • Lizzie

                I’m a feminist and I believe there is such a thing as a false accusation. How does that work for your close minded idea of political ideologies?

                • Tom

                  You’re the first feminist I’ve ever met who acknowledges that false rape accusations actually happen, I’ve tried to be open minded about it

                  • Lizzie

                    Seeing as feminist literally means someone who see’s men and women as equal beings, I should hope more people agree with me. Of course they exist, as awful as it is and though I’m sure it’s in the minority of accusations, I’m sure there are people who say someone has assaulted them when they know that they didn’t. Just as rape is could ruin the life of a woman who is attacked, being accused of rape could ruin the life of a man who is falsely accused.

                  • Lizzie

                    As feminism literally means someone who see’s men and women as equals I’m sure more feminists agree with me. Just as women can have their life ruined by rape, men can have their lives ruined by being falsely accused. These classes are important not just to prevent rape, but also to prevent false accusation too which is why both genders should attend.

            • :)

              If you think a lack of understanding of mutual consent is what caused those events then it’s you who needs classes, not all students. The false accuser and the rapist in your unfortunate friends story both knew what they were doing was wrong, telling them again won’t change their actions.

              I frankly find it rather patronising that I am considered so stupid that I should need a class on consent. Lets face it that is the base assumption when you say these classes are needed, that everyone but you is a moron.

      • Yeah

        I think you need one of those workshops

        • Tom

          Couldn’t be further from the truth pal.

          • Sophia

            oh spare me. “pal”

      • Sophia

        did you somehow not notice how she said “everyone”? not men in specific. EVERYONE. yes, for some reason not everyone is out to get you, most people actually understand that learning more about things isnt insulting that you dont know everything (because shock horror YOU DONT) its a useful thing, so we can all learn.

  • Anon 1

    It’s incredibly damaging and dangerous to suggest that rapists look a certain way.

    • Craig Wells

      But it’s not damaging to say that all men need to be taught not to rape by going to consent workshops?

      • Anon 1

        It doesn’t actually accuse people of rape, it is not intended to suggest that all men do, so no, no it’s not damaging.

        • Tom

          It indirectly holds all men collectively responsible for the actions of a tiny minority of men who commit sexual assault, and punishes them for it

          • Anon 1

            Semantically, prevent means the action in question hasn’t yet happened, which means that responsibility cannot yet be taken. Your argument is defunct.

            • Tom

              But the workshops are held and directed at men precisely because of the sexual assaults committed by a tiny portion of men.

              • Anon 1

                Yeah you’ve just repeated exactly what you said before, to which I provided a beautifully rational response to (your favourite kind!)

                • Tom

                  Yeah there’s no way you’re not trolling right now, nobody can seriously be as much of a dumbf*ck as you, you are seriously thick as sh*t if you don’t clearly understand the valid point I’m making

                  • Really?

                    Oh, the namecalling…
                    When that happens, we know you lost the argument and don’t know how to admit it.

                    • Tom

                      There is no argument, the argument ended when you/he decided to stop putting forward rational arguments

                    • Anon 1

                      Boohoo, I’m a female!!

                    • Tom

                      Means nothing to me, do you want to re-think your previous “argument” and come up with something of substance or is this conversation over?

                  • Anon 1

                    No, your arguments are just far too easy to pull apart 😀 (it’s been a pleasure)

                    • Tom

                      If deluding yourself in to thinking that’s what happened makes you feel better, go for it – you haven’t pulled apart anything, you haven’t made any rational response at all

                    • Not Anon1

                      You’re the deluded one Tom. :)

                  • Sophia

                    you are actually being told by people they are not aimed at men, by people who run this stuff, and as a random person who had never even been to it you have decided you know best. pull yourself together tom and grow up

              • Roll Eyes

                No, the workshops are directed to everyone, so people know what consent is, how to give it, how to obtain it.

                • Tom

                  Don’t pretend that they aren’t directed at men

                  • Roll Eyes

                    They are directed at everyone. They aren’t gendered, they are aimed for queer relationships too. So no, they aren’t directed “at men”, they are of value to everyone.
                    Even from a heteronormative view that everyone loves here, a woman may learn that she can rape or that certain situations constitute sexual harassment, when before she may have blamed herself, whereas now she may understand that another person ignoring her lack of consent means the responsibility is of the other person, and not her fault for not doing everything to prevent it.
                    but you know, this applies to everyone… not just men as perpetrators, women as victims. Although men are more often found to be perpetrators, in both assault towards men & women, but women can and do assault too.

              • Kathy

                Keep pushing that tiny portion thing, it’s not convincing anyone.

        • :)

          As a man I really hope I don’t accidently rape someone. I wasn’t invited to one of these consent awareness groups and I am worried that because I am a man I am too unintelligent to know what constitutes sexual activity without consent from the other party.

          Please help, I don’t want to end up being raped in prison by other men who also didn’t attend consent awareness classes.

      • GUEST4

        No one said all men and it is just an invitation. What about cat calling, guys beeping their horns, men who think they can put their hand on your waist to guide you through a door, guys who thought they were flirting with me over the years by bumping into me or trying to get me to dirty talk with them, all these things are unwanted but yet I get told I should expect it to happen to me throughout life because it’s just guys, a little bit of fun, banter etc bullshit, if he doesn’t want to go he doesn’t have to end of story, stop criticising people who are trying something rather than nothing!

  • Ciaran McQueen

    nice of you to remove your fedora for the picture

    • Craig Wells

      Nice of you to contribute something meaningful to the discussion

  • :)

    Thank god for that. Until now I had just been avoiding women altogether in case I accidently did something horrible without realising. Now I can rest easy on this new found knowledge that I won’t rape anyone by accident.

  • Emily

    What an awful article. Off the top of my head I know of at least two instances involving close friends that have been raped by boys that didn’t consider what they were doing as wrong. One even had to confront said boy- a friend!- to tell him what had happened (he was drunk and claimed he couldn’t remember). He was so shocked that he was capable of that and kept repeating that it didn’t sound like him. He himself claimed to be a feminist YET he was still capable of rape. So no, I reject your view that boys that rape know what they’re doing, many do not. It’s an issue and it needs addressing.

    • Tom

      If the male friend was too drunk to remember, but your friend could remember, surely he was the one that was raped?

      • Dan Wheatley

        is that really what you think defines rape?

        • Dictionary

          Penetrated without consent is rape.

      • Emily

        she was lying there not participating at all and also very, very drunk. So no, I disagree.

  • Fractal

    Unfortunately, given the staggeringly high number of sexual assaults that happen on university campuses every year, it seems that a large number of students such as yourself actually don’t have a clear understanding of consent and could probably benefit from such a workshop. And yes, actually, this IS what a rapist looks like. Rape isn’t just committed by strangers in dark alleys, the majority of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, very often a friend or romantic partner who might not even know they’re doing anything wrong, ie people just like you. Sorry if that invitation was ‘incredibly hurtful’- I can assure you it wasn’t as hurtful as sexual assault. Don’t believe you’re too clever and important to go to a consent workshop, because you clearly are not. You are part of the problem.

    • LitStudent

      I really want lots of people to like your post so it goes to the top – sums it up so well – I agree – angering to read the author of the original post saying he is “hurt”. At worst – he’s being inconvenienced

  • dilliwali

    yooooouuuuu aaaaareeee a fuuuuucckkkiiiiinnggg idiot

  • Amy

    I think the main problem I have with this article is that it makes the assumption that sexual consent workshops are specifically to teach men that they shouldn’t rape women. Women are not only raped by men, but by other women too. Women aren’t the only ones to be raped; men are raped by other men, and by women. Consent workshops are for EVERYBODY, and there must be people – out of the 7 billion there are on earth – who don’t see the “grey areas” of rape as being inherently wrong, because moral subjects are subjective to the individual. There must also be potential VICTIMS who aren’t aware of the “grey areas” or rape, (like rape occurring within a relationship) and workshops serve the purpose of raising awareness with these people as well. No harm can come from giving people knowledge, even if it’s something they already know.

    • VictoryMonk

      In the UK, legally only men can rape (see below). Notice “he”. These workshops reinforce the idea that men are potential rapists. They are very hostile and offensive to men.

      “1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

      (a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

      (b) B does not consent to the penetration, and

      (c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.”

      Source: Section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act of 2003.

  • ellie

    Written, probably, by someone who has, by nature, a good understanding of consent. Teaching consent isn’t necessarily for those who set out to hurt or attack, but for people to whom (I’m not very good at using the word whom) the concept does not come naturally. I was, too, surprised to find that perfectly normal, nice people can misjudge situations quite badly, and the only explanation that I can come up with is that they weren’t properly taught boundaries growing up. Just because you don’t (think you) know someone who fits this description/has been a victim to a poor understanding of boundaries and consent, doesn’t mean these people don’t exist.

  • Zach

    Well I think this article in itself is a pretty solid proof that more work needs to be done. If you take the time to criticize having been invited to an event which in the worst case doesn’t hurt anyone else than your ego and in the best case might do some good work in teaching people about consent, I’m afraid you might be a little too focused on yourself and not aware enough of the size and complexity of the problem (Not saying I understand it myself). I think every try to do something good as long as it doesn’t hurt someone else, is a good try. And I really don’t see how you’re trying to do something good here. It’s always very easy to say “Of course I’m against rape” to kind of reassure yourself that you’re still on the good side, but there are no sides and really there shouldn’t be any ‘opinions’ here either. I like to think that we’re all trying to improve the world and I’m sure you do too, but denouncing other people’s tries as wrong seems counter-productive. Ok maybe this article isn’t trying to do anything good and is just a slightly pissed off commentary, fair, but I think we all really need to learn how to not be pissed off with each other over who does good in the better way.

    • VictoryMonk

      It does hurt. It perpetuates a prejudice that men are rapists, or potential rapists. Do we send black people to classes about not mugging people? By your logic, those classes wouldn’t hurt anyone, and might reduce theft and mugging. We can even send black and white people, though of course everyone will know what’s it about.

  • Cisgenderapeapologistscum

    Fact is rape isnt even a problem. Feminists create stats such as the 1 in 5 sexual assault stat through dodgy survey’s because they need a reason to look like the victims because without that there movement dies.

    • Sophia

      rape isnt even a problem? this is probably the only time i have had to stop myself wishing someone to get raped and i apologise for it

      • Hzle

        OK, well what about the stats being heavily doctored? If there’s a moral panic based on completely false stats, then that really is a problem, isn’t it?

        Look at the US, where in response to the same bad stats, you get colleges setting down draconian rules: expelling students who’ve merely been ACCUSED of sexual misconduct. Not found guilty, *accused*

        In some cases the women seem to have lied, for weird reasons, and the guys had evidence that sex was consensual (in practice, how many guys will have such evidence in these scenarios?) The universities don’t tend to reinstate the male, his reputation and education are ruined. Not surprisingly, lawsuits have followed.

        We for some reason are trying to foment the same moral panic in the UK. We must be mad…

  • natalia

    ‘Do I really look like a rapist’…. Well yes? What do you think rapists look like?! They’re just normal looking dudes like u lol. Sry ur ‘hurt’ tho lol

  • James Bartie

    You actually do look really rapey

  • Ben David Webber

    Believe it or not, there are people who don’t quite get it. They might have minor misunderstandings, and a consent workshop can pick these up and correct them. The very fact the writer gets so indignant is worrying, as the workshops are intended as a check-up. No one gets indignant over going for a check-up with their doctor, because they understand that the doctor has an impartial view and training that can spot anything wrong. Likewise the people running the consent workshops have an impartial view and can spot anything wrong before it develops into something more serious. More to the point, the claims he makes about understanding consent, then claiming that the people who turn up are the ones who all share the same views about consent is deeply worrying.

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  • chichachachi

    What kind of arrogant dood could be so blind to think he could never be perceived as a potential rapist? Realistically, I’ll bet more women are afraid of being trapped in a conversation than being raped by him, but even that has little to do with the impossibility of rape.

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  • Fred

    I think it is a somewhat flawed article (the whole picture thing), but I agree with his general argument that pressuring men to attend the classes , since we know it is aimed at men, with constant citing of statistics and other discourses which are gendered in a male-raping/female-being-raped dichotomous way, is infantilising and patronising. Following exactly the same logic, all male Muslims should be educated not to take part in terrorism, all male PoC should be educated not to commit violent crime (which disproportionately they commit). Now we know, for the latter example, that this is because of structural reasons e.g. the racial politics of the prison-industrial system, and definitely not the classic reductionist racist views. Moves to institute such re-education classes would be rightfully and overwhelmingly criticised. Yet, when it comes to men, they are seen as fair game, in need of re-education because it is alleged that the current state of men and masculinity tacitly supports rape apologism and men are thus in need of re-education and pressured attendance at these workshops.

  • For Bleep Sake

    You were the only male human to get the notification-invitation? The people in charge singled you out? It’s a workshop-class only for you to attend? How adorable that you think they’re persecuting you.

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  • psychosaurus

    Try to explain to me how a severely alcohol intoxicated man is going to magically remember the consent training session (given the probability that he even attended one) before he commits an action what will be deemed as rape and stops his wrongdoing – when his sex drive is the strongest. (remember the wonderful feminist notion of these days that regret = rape too) Mind you – most cases of rape in UK arent what your delusional feminist fantasies imagine them to be – like a forced violent sex in the back alley outside somewhere. No – most rape cases victim accounts start with a simple sentence “I was drunk”… Both parties are usually in the state of being unable to give consent on their own sober will. And you idiotic delusional feminists who barely even get laid while being sober think that some consent training will do any difference ?! Its like you consider the world one big “safe space” where there is a prevailing EQUALITY of retardation that you have. Pathetic.

  • Tom Holmes

    The point that this guy and a lot of other guys have missed is that it’s not just guys who don’t realise that they’ve raped girls. Often girls think that it’s their fault because they were drunk or whatever. A lot of young women don’t necessarily get taught exactly what their rights are and think that they’re the ones in the wrong. This course is as much about teaching young women their own rights and helping them stand up to potential rapists as it is teaching young men the exact laws of consent.

    But to echo what others have already put more eloquently than I, people see rape as something sensational, as a vile crime (which it is) where evil people knowingly commit horrific acts on women with every intention of doing so and hence everyone who commits rape is some sort of monster and must be a psychopath. And the problem with this is that it fails to grasp the reality which is that most women are raped by guys that they were close to and that didn’t realise that what they were doing (or did and simply didn’t care) was so wrong, and was in fact rape.

  • LitStudent

    So many comments to scroll through, but pretty shocked at this ignorant article. The purpose of Nationwide student consent workshops such as these is because we have a global crisis with rape and sexual violence, which of course – can affect anybody of any gender, age, race, or identity. I don’t know why people are saying these workshops will not bring anything new into discussion? Really? Think again:

    After Warwick, I got involved with a consent campaign at another University, and am glad to see that Warwick is increasing awareness here. Warwick was full of sexual harassment, and anybody saying that isn’t the case – well you are very lucky to have not experienced it. Regardless of what you believe your moral compass is like, I honestly believe that these discussions are vital – and as said by someone amid the hundreds of comments – at worst, an inconvenience to a small few who think they don’t need it. Circumstances in which my friends, and myself, were at risk at Warwick – were indeed unwanted advances from people we knew and could name. Sometimes they were strangers. This included instances of rape and stalking. I was in fact naive enough (before coming to Warwick) to think of a rapist in a more stereotypical alleyway sense. I wish consent awareness had been stronger when I began my degree.

    Going to University opens your mind of course, encourages people to change their mode of thinking. The point I want to make is that some of the feedback from the consent activities I was involved with last year, were as follows: one individual came up at the end and said to one of the organisers “Thank you; I have known deep down for a long time that I have been sexually abused by my long-term partner, and discussing it with other people has made me realise that I have been denying the abuse.” This individual was not the only person to come up and the end and say that they had been blaming themselves for their past experiences, or that they had never really stopped to think properly about the notion of consent. So please, particularly the author of this article, think about the people sat in the room who will feel at ease knowing that this issue – which is all around us – can be discussed. (Now this is for the author of the article) – your address to the organisers of the events, and the fact they need to “have a little respect for [you] – [and others’] intelligence” is ridiculous. Your article is far from intelligent. Most people at this highly-regarded University are intelligent, it doesn’t mean that consent is simple in their heads – I know somebody who came out with great grades, but they admitted that these kinds of discussions made him realise that he had at times used some emotional pressure on somebody. As for your suggestion, “They could be making a difference by actually going out and campaigning” is also flawed – most groups that run these workshops do so as part of a wider awareness campaign – but the conversation needs to be tackled from its roots – the roots are not that ‘some people are rapists and know what they are doing’ – and then there’s the rest of society, etc. – that is clearly not the case.
    As for “self-appointed teachers of consent” – most student-run consent workshops are not run in a Teacher>Student didactic fashion but as an open forum, so please rethink what you are saying. It could affect you one day – perhaps in an indirect way – maybe providing support to a friend who experienced harassment, you just don’t know. I also hope this post debunks user: Tom’s worrying claims that the workshops are “useless”.

  • Jayne

    I get what this article is saying. I do however disagree, such classes should be attended by all students, male and female. They should also include topics on accepting drinks from strangers, getting into difficult situations, and behavior to keep safe. The amount of times I’ve been groped in a club and despite attempts to get away, push them away (which is sometimes hard in a crowed club), and they have persisted. It’s when someone else steps in, tells them to back off that in almost all cases has made them stop. It’s this awareness that what is happening isn’t ok, which has given many girls the support they need in these horrid situations.

  • questions and/or complaints?

    If you have questions or complaints about the above article, address them to editor@tab.co.uk, clearly citing which article you are referring to before outlining your content. Keep discussion open, and avoid bickering, it’s frankly rather boring.

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  • Upset

    I was raped in first year at Warwick University. On campus. By someone I knew. He spiked my drink. He didn’t LOOK like a rapist.

    What I want to point out here is that it was someone who I trusted.

    Sometimes someone wants sex so they take advantage of a situation when a girl (or boy) is vulnerable. This is common. It’s really interesting yet naïve to find that you believe consent is a “basic human interaction” rather than down to morals or moment-specific decisions.

    Unfortunately, even people you trust can overlook consent if they think they can get what they want and get away with it.

    We need to fight against rape. This is not a gender war. This is about raising awareness and engaging men and women to unite against people who violate and rape.

    • James

      That’s terrible, but what does it have to do with this article?

  • Nirelli

    This is pretty narrow-minded, seemingly written from the point of view of someone who has not experienced any of this. I’m not saying that means he doesn’t have a right to talk about it, but unfortunately he seems to have little enough experience to take it personally (regardless of inexperience) and pen it in as black and white. “I am not a rapist, therefore I know about consent.” Apparently not. I have heard of and personally experienced situations where someone forces themselves on someone else- not because they’re the boogeyman jumping out of a street corner -but because they have little concept of the fact that two people having a physical relationship does not mean ALWAYS GO … To put it very briefly. There’s so much more to it, but it’s probably pointless writing this because the author of the article is likely still somewhere proclaiming how he is not a rapist and everyone should know that. Because obviously, trying to teach people about consent means you are calling them a rapist. Duh.

    • VictoryMonk

      I think you are missing a bigger point in his stance. When young men view consent workshops as insulting and hostile towards men, they are ineffective.

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  • Partridge

    Much better to teach mothers not to abuse their kids. Oh wait, that wouldn’t work either…

  • Smithereens

    Yes – you do look like a rapist.

  • Aaron Miles

    People know the difference between wrong and right but some chose to do the wrong thing even when they know it don’t tar everyone with the same brush no amount of so called consent education will change that get over yourselfs. The lad standing up and so he should.

  • Chris Hancock

    hahahahaha omg unbelievable douchebaggery

    • Partridge

      That comment tells us more about yourself than about anything else.

  • Mike_Hodges

    I have to agree with this young man. If you’re likely to need lessons in NOT raping people then you’re highly unlikely to attend or pay any attention if you do.

  • Nora Reed

    lol writing articles like this and holding signs like that def make you look like a rapist, dude, i’d def avoid being alone with you personally

  • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

    George, as the leader of the only political party in the English-speaking world campaigning for the human rights of men and boys, I salute you. Just posted this:

    https://j4mb.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/community-of-the-wrongly-accused-george-lawlor-student-insists-he-doesnt-need-consent-training-next-hell-insist-he-doesnt-need-training-on-how-not-to-kill-people/

    Mike Buchanan

    JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
    (and the women who love them)

    http://j4mb.org.uk

    • Kathy

      Lol hi Mike, how’s that political party going?

      • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

        Kathy, it’s going very well, thank you for asking. Hopefully you’ve read our 80-page election manifesto? If not, it’s here https://j4mb.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/141228-v7-general-election-manifesto1.pdf. It outlines how the state (through its actions and inactions) assaults the human rights of men and/or boys in 20 areas. The state assaults the human rights of women and/or girls specifically in no areas. Not one. Time for some gender equality, starting with an end to MGM, maybe?

        Feel free to peruse our YouTube library, which contains our 100+ radio and television appearances since 2013 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKhX1c3ow6BrzdzP3ydpeZQ/videos. Also links to why a number of women won Lying Feminist of the Month awards – Caroline Criado-Perez (three times), Sandy Toxic (twice), Laura Bates (twice), Kat Banyard…

        • Kathy

          Hi Mike, thanks for your reply. I would contest that your party is going well, however. 71 votes was it?

          • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

            No, it wasn’t. You appear not to understand our electoral strategy. Our electoral strategy for 2020 is here https://j4mb.wordpress.com/2020-2025-general-election-strategies/. We already have in place funding streams to pay for the deposits of candidates in the seats which were the top 20 Conservative marginals in 2015.

            If you want to learn about assaults on men’s and boys’ rights – which is unlikely, I accept – you should subscribe to A Voice for Men http://avoiceformen.com (no cost).

            • Kathy

              Hahaha, no thank you. A Voice for Men is not a reliable source in any way.

          • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

            Kathy, you’re hopefully aware that men are frequently the subjects of serious sexual assaults by women? If this comes as a surprise I recommend you read pp.31-37 of our manifesto https://j4mb.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/141228-v7-general-election-manifesto1.pdf.

            • Kathy

              I’ve read your manifesto and there isn’t enough brain bleach in the world.

              • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

                Kathy, judging by the intellectual level of your latest comments, I’m guessing wildly you self-identity as a feminist. Have a nice day.

                • Kathy

                  Yes, you’re right, I am a feminist. Sorry to disappoint (not really).

                  • Terrence S M Popp

                    another college rape BS rap, false alligations with no consiquences = life destroying oppression but hay they are men so who cares right comedy vid follows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3cukYMblg 5

                    • Rebecca Pâté

                      You can’t write, but good job for being able to vaguely use a keyboard!

                    • William Gruff

                      Your own writing is nothing to be proud of. Be careful of throwing stones in glass houses. That notwithstanding, whatever one thinks of Mr Popp’s writing, it is clear that he can think for himself, unlike you.

                  • William Gruff

                    You haven’t disappointed us Kathy; we can all see what you are and expect nothing sensible from you.

                • nomis

                  Guessing wildly? What does that even mean?

              • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

                Oh, and if you have any spare time, I invite you to visit the website of The Anti-Feminism League http://fightingfeminism.wordpress.com. There’s a link to a free downloadable copy of ‘The Fraud of Feminism’, a book published in 1913.

                • Kathy

                  Wow a book published in 1913? That will be so relevant to today’s world, thank you.

                  • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

                    I assume you’re a student at Warwick Uni, yet you can’t grasp that a book published 100+ years ago could be relevant to today’s world? Wow. The book is very relevant. Bax showed that feminism, even then, was not about gender equality, but the extension of female privilege.

                    If male criminals were sentenced as leniently as female criminals, five out of six men in British prisons today wouldn’t be there, as William Collins explains http://mra-uk.co.uk/?p=215.

                    In many respects women are effectively above the law. Even if convicted of making false rape allegations – ruining innocent men’s lives – they remain anonymous, and will probably get a suspended sentence i.e. no punishment.

                    I repeat that our election manifesto – which you claim to have read – describes 20 areas in which the human rights of men and boys in the UK today are assaulted by the state. Can you name me ONE area in which the human rights of women and/or girls – specifically – in the UK today are assaulted by the state? In the past three years I’ve been asking feminists this question, not one has ever been able to think of one. No rush, take your time…

                    • Kathy

                      You should probably stop assuming seeing as I’m 27 years old and graduated from Newcastle University about 5 years ago.

                    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

                      I’m assuming you’re five and a 27-year-old is typing for you.

                    • Terrence S M Popp

                      here is a comedy assasination on a feminist and there typical behavior https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMUCI2ixFUA

                    • nomis

                      Their

                    • William Gruff

                      Your written English is not what I would expect from a graduate. What subject did you graduate in, and how did you actually get into university?

                    • Kathy

                      And no, a book from 1913 that will inevitably be an anti-suffrage screed is not relevant. If you tried to use that as a source in academia you’d be laughed out of the building.

                    • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

                      Laughed out of the building? Perhaps… but that would be a reflection of a problem with academia, not the book.

                    • William Gruff

                      What sort of ‘academia’ do you haunt? The book is a primary source document and no serious student of history would dismiss it out of hand simply because he disliked its essential premise. I realise that no professed feminist can be a serious student of anything serious.

                    • Tim Lennon

                      I’m a feminist, and a Warwick MA. I imagine anyone attempting to use the book for much beyond an analysis of social attitudes in 1913 probably would be laughed at.

              • William Gruff

                If there were, Kathy, there would be far fewer seriously mentally ill women justifying their extreme gynocentric and misandrous rantings as ‘feminism’. There isn’t currently enough ‘brain bleach’ to clear out the mental disease that is feminism but we men are inventive, resourceful and industrious (we’ve built the world that keeps you in idleness, safety and comfort) so the solution to the global insanity that is feminism is well within our abilities. Justice for Men and Boys is part of that solution.

            • Rebecca Pâté

              False. No statistics or evidence to back up this ridiculous claim.

              • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

                Read the manifesto – pages 31-37. Can you manage that?

      • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

        The full list of our Lying Feminist of the Month award winners https://j4mb.wordpress.com/lying-woman-of-the-month/.

        Smart women explain why they don’t need feminism http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/

        • Kathy

          Have you ever wondered how much you could actually get done if you stopped whining about feminism (and calling women whiners) and actually did something constructive that will ACTUALLY help boys and men?

          • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

            We spend a great deal of time trying to ‘actually’ help boys and men. Our #1 campaigning issue is MGM, which is clearly illegal under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, later legislation, and is in breach of numerous Articles in UN and EU conventions. The criminal justice system doesn’t prosecute practitioners, so we’re challenging Theresa May and Alison Saunders with FOI requests etc. We may bring a private prosecution on the matter.

            So, WHY doesn’t the CJS prosecute the practitioners? Because it doesn’t care about the genital mutilation of male minors. Instead it fixates on finding elusive male practitioners of FGM, although it’s long been known FGM is carried out by women at the behest of women.

            • Elly

              Lol this man is a nutcase.

              • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

                Which of the facts and evidence-backed rational arguments we employ have led you to that conclusion?

          • mb1957@hotmail.co.uk

            Since you brought up whiny women, herewith my article on The Whine Club http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/the-whine-club/. Laura Bates – The Everyday Whining Project – was the inaugural member.

        • Terrence S M Popp

          here is a comedy assasination on a feminist and there typical behavior https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMUCI2ixFUA 2

      • DaveRistaro

        “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

        • Craig Martin

          Isn’t that the truth!

        • disqus_QL05BqU79X

          Men’s greatest weakness is the façade of strength. Women’s greatest strength is the façade of weakness.

    • Angela p

      it didn’t take long until an MRA professional nut job appeared on this site, did it.

    • Terrence S M Popp

      another college rape BS rap, false alligations with no consiquences = life destroying oppression but hay they are men so who cares right comedy vid follows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3cukYMblg 4

      • Rebecca Pâté

        Yeah, and your terrible use of the English language really helps your ’cause’.

  • Chris B

    How fortunate I belong to a generation with sufficient empathy and morality, to know right from wrong, good from bad – and how sad that thousands of years of evolution have led up to this seemingly terminal decline evidenced by almost everyone born after 1987/88 and educated under the ‘New Labour reforms’ whilst watching Big Brother, Geordie Shore and Jeremy Kyle on the telly.

    As for sex, if you need to wear T-shirts and bark lessons at people to understand the concept of ‘consent’, you shouldn’t be having sex with anyone. Sex, as the word suggests, alludes to ‘sexy’, to allure and to eroticism, to decency and attraction. How the hell can anyone find hectoring, senseless sloganeers ‘sexy’? Again, perhaps I’m fortunate having not experienced the brainwashing epidemic, I tend to find women attractive who behave like adults and not silly spoilt children. I suggest to those “young people” who have requisite common sense still that you colonise somewhere safe, the continuing of humanity may depend on you escaping the dodo’s.

    • Kathy

      So not wanting to be raped counts as being silly and spoiled now?

      Wow.

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  • opnyrhrts

    I have a big gun and online I shoot my load at whomever I want.
    Are you going to be all right with that?

  • Suzi

    What strikes me most about this article is the sheer arrogance. George apparently understands more about how people think about rape than the countless researchers, psychologists, activists who have studied and reported on the subject of rape culture and apologism. I guess that learning pales in comparison with George just ‘not believing people don’t know’ (clearly this is enough of an editorial arguement that actual research and facts aren’t needed). The Tad isn’t known for its strict editorial standards and it appears that they are prepare to accept any old sexist bullshit as long as its got a high clickbait factor. I’m pretty sure once he gets out there in the world of work he won’t be able to get this crap published.

    • Mamusu Kallon

      word suzi word.

  • Captain Hindsight

    Yes, you do look like a rapist. You see, rapists can be anyone.

  • Chris Hancock

    hey dickhead at university the rapist would actually look like you a preppy white dude with dead eyes

  • Laurence Hughes

    Well done, George! Keep sticking up for sanity and the rejection of enforced ideological indoctrination at our universities This kind of ‘pc’ totalitarianism is gaining far too much of a foothold and needs to be resisted!

  • alice

    I cannot believe this article has been allowed to be published. You clearly do not understand consent at all. Its not as simple as yes means yes and no means no. I have been heavily pressured into sex and made to feel bad for not doing it. This is wrong but i think many boys fail to understand this. Pestering someone for sex once they’ve said no is also wrong. Just because a girl is in your bed does not mean they want to have sex with you. There is a huge problem with rape and sexual assault at university, and a huge problem with boys knowing what consent means. I think every girl would say this.

    • VictoryMonk

      “I cannot believe this article has been allowed to be published.”

      Have you heard of free speech? He raised very important point. One could argue that these consent workshops do more harm than good, by perpetuating “all men are rapists” prejudice and being hostile to men. So I’m very glad he took a stance and we are having this discussion.

  • James

    I agree with him. Not all of us need to be taught how not to be a rapist. There’s a huge problem–not just in the UK, but across the world–with rape, but I don’t believe the way to tackle it is “consent workshops.” As Lawlor says, the type of person who needs such a workshop isn’t like to attend voluntarily, and it’s not very likely that there’s anyone old enough to have sex who in 2015 doesn’t know that someone can be too drunk to consent, or that someone can withdraw consent at any stage, or that how a person is dressed isn’t an indicator of consent.

    • Mamusu Kallon

      Wow, because repeated research surveying peoples attitudes to sex show there are people old enough to have sex who say, its not rape if she is drunk and who say it’s her fault if she is in a short skirt. Over and over again across different countries including good old england. Amnesty international, the UN, etc all have done this research. Is it deliberate ignorance on your part right that you don’t know this?…..or it could be because you simply don’t know about this research and so can’t even fathom it exists, a bit like how you might not know certain things about consent and can’t fathom that some of what you do is against consent… and so might find new insights in a consent workshop? geeez……..talk about a lack of self-awareness and humility. In short, somethings you can be aware of your own ignorance of, and other things , you are so ignorant, you don’t even know you are ignorant of it!

      • James

        This is information that has been widely discussed for decades. I’m simply agreeing with Lawlor’s statement that people lie: people who make those claims know they’ve done something wrong; they just deny it.

        And even if what you say is true: that there are people who DON’T know these things, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t many others who do. In other words, that’s still not an argument for making everyone take a “consent workshop,” and it’s still not an argument for the efficacy of those workshops.

        • Mamusu Kallon

          The type of person who needs such a workshop isn’t
          likely to attend voluntarily- well actually they are, because the type of person who is likely to rape someone is ‘any type of person’, Especially those who perceive themselves to be ‘good guys’ If you have decided to award yourself, the” I am a decent human being award’ you stop questioning your own behavior because – if you are a good person, everything you do is good, no need to be vigilant about your behavior- and then do something that that is actually rape or assault- and off course you deny you did something wrong because you don’t want a criminal record etc. The whole ‘type of person’ who is a rapist argument has been proven over and over again to be a false comfort. Every single person is capable of violating anther’s sexual boundaries. Perceiving yourself as decent does not preclude you from
          harming others. You and this writer seems to have a singular vision of Rapists being ‘evil people who set out to rape from when they woke up that morning. Rapists are sometimes boys/young men who
          feel pressured to be having sex, have a completely fucked up notion of what sex should be and think ‘women like forcefulness’ or whatever because some idiot told them or watched porn, came from an unhealthy household, experienced abuse. Consent workshops tackle the whole range is issues. Workshops will help these people to not go out and harm others. Its utterly false that rapist are men hiding in bushes with balaclavas, bad to the bone and only have this one identity. They are not in some other category marked evil. I am shocked that someone in an educational institution
          thinks learning about consent is not worth his time.

          Also university aged women need to attend workshops,- so they can understand what rape is and learn about asserting what they want. Various surveys show young women saying, that it’s
          still not rape even if she has said no to her boyfriend. Th seem to think its only rape when extreme violence- broken bones) is used. Loads of women can’t even recognize rape and minimize it. So yea the type of person who needs to attend is likely to come. They are not pointless but very necessary. this writer has a very limited understudying of sexual relations and consent as he hasn’t aknowledge that its not just potential perpetrators who need to understand consent – but also potential victims.

  • mik

    George Lawlor – self-absorbed, pompous, up his own arse creep.

  • VictoryMonk

    I think people are missing very important point here. Many young men, including George Lawlor, view the consent workshops as hostile and insulting.

    Most people here unleashed a storm of insults on him, and even “Warwick’s women’s officer and one of the organisers of the ‘I Heart Consent’ workshops, Josie Throup, also took to The Tab to write how she was angry at reading Lawlor’s piece.”
    It only show how responsive and open-minded consent workshop organizers are to the feedback. And they are not. What they should have done is to think: may be we are doing something wrong? It’s hard for a workshop to be effective when it alienates and demonizes its target demographics.

  • Craig Martin

    Consent classes?!?
    This is starting to look like a Nazi Education system.
    Well done George for ousting it.

  • Helena Makarova

    Totally with you, George!

  • disqus_QL05BqU79X

    Good work, George. Take it from a man who’s been sexually assaulted by more women than most men sleep with in a lifetime, it’s not men who need to be taught consent at all. Males are biologically designed to protect women, hence why so many modern men of your age are so easily brainwashed, bought and sold into thinking women are being assaulted all over the place. There’s never been a time in human history where disgust and horror was not piqued by the very idea of womenfolk being raped or hurt. Men still go to war over it.

    Feminism is largely a mirror on real life. You’ll learn this steadily. Women actually rape men more than men rape women – and there’s rather a lot of paradigm-spoiling evidence to show it, too. Same with domestic violence and child abuse. You’re just not allowed to say these things and you’re forever mocked and silenced for trying.

    Fly high!

  • horus752

    Good for you George.It’s about time someone took a stand against this horseshit. Feminists and progressives have whipped everyone into such a frenzy about a fake rape crisis, and that every man is looked at as a potential rapist. Men and boys from an early age know what consent is.They don’t have to have this bullshit programming force on them.

  • keith

    Careful George as much as I totally agree with you posting your picture online with the message `this is not what a rapist looks like` is inviting a woman to make a false allegation against you. All they need to do to get you locked up is make the allegation, not matter how unlikely! The police are compelled to act and you will face one and a half years waiting for the CPS to decide if they are going to prosecute or not. The level of evidence required? Her allegation!!!

    You will be ostrisized by all bar your closest friends. Depending on how vindictive the accuser feels she may decide to leak the accusation to the press so that all your friends and family back home find out.

    You will be forced to pay your own expenses to and from your legal advice. Whereas she will have all hers paid and wont have to pay a penny back even if you are eventually aquitted!

    If you are lucky the state will pay for you to have good legal representation. Once she is in the dock your Barrister will eventually, you hope, prove she has lied. When this happens the judge will pronounce you not guilty and your nightmare, bar the nightmares will be over.

    Surely, you think she will pay for her lies? No of course not no charges will be brought against her. Like you she is free to go.

    So all I am saying is this, yes of course you are right and I applaud you loudly for saying what you said but be careful.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      BOOM. Life for young student men in the UK, nailed, right there. You have NO legal rights to due process if you are male accused of hurting a woman or child in any way. Often the worst part is that if the case looks pivotal, the police and/or CPS will tip off the press so your name will be thrown around the media. Once you’re branded socially, you’re done. Being found not guilty doesn’t count for much when you cannot get a job ever again.

      Most big cases are closed up before the trials start. Witnesses can be paid to lie by media agencies. This is what happened to Rolf Harris. The evidence that the witnesses lied in that farce isn’t hard to find either. You only need to blindside the public and ensure the judge guides the jury. All UK judges have been under bench guidelines from certain members of the peerage (Hale, Butler-Sloss and co.), since 2011, to treat women with the utmost leniency in all courts.

    • Angela p

      It has been shown time and time again that there are no more false allegations of rape than there are for any other crime, a very small percentage of all rape allegations, but MRA nuts keep pushing their ‘lying women’ agenda with the soul purpose of undermining any attempt to create safe environments for women in society.

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        Opposite of the truth. It’s been shown over and again that women lie about rape more than any other crime and yet not a single woman in UK legal history has ever been the victim of a false claim of a sexual offence. The evidence of hoax prevalence is out there, but hidden by feminists. The public just get bombarded by the loudest voices: feminists.

        Rape is the most falsely reported crime on earth and always has been. There’s a reason why, historically, women were not allowed in courts to sit on juries or whose testimonies were considered worth half of a man’s (Roman Empire, Islamic societies). It’s impossibly un-PC to say it, but there you go. Women lie because they can and idiot men and women are taught as kids to believe that women are virtuous victims.

        Women used to murder men more than the reverse, too. Now they just get the state to do it and cash in.

        There are a few idiots in the MRM, sadly. It happens. Real MRAs are 99% men and women trying to protect good men from the power of the state, which now actually pays women to lie.

        Women have never been safer. You’re looking in a mirror and are too scared to turn round. And I mean no offence by that. 95% of the UK public are just cattle, psychologically speaking. I used to think like you until I had the indoctrination beaten out of me, quite literally.

        • Angela p

          Historically women have not been believed, and haven’t been equal to men in any societal aspect, precisely because of the deeply ingrained misogyny in our cultures, like the one you display in your posts. You really hate women, dude.

          • disqus_QL05BqU79X

            Again, opposite. Women are almost always believed. Historically, so many have been known to lie that the liars ruined it for real victims and things crashed. We’re going through that cycle again. Societies do this, collapse and go round again. Rome, Sparta, China, Russia. Idiots never learn.

            It’s deeply-ingrained misandry we have in the UK; it’s this which leads you to think that I hate women for stating unpopular facts. I have amazing women in my life. Loads of them. They respect me because I respect them and do not pander or pedestalise them.

            It’s you – and millions like you – who has no respect for women, denying their intelligence, their agency and their capabilities for both good and bad.

            “Misogyny” is a tiresome buzzword used by feminists to throw at men who could not possibly disrespect women as much as they do.

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  • Oisín G86

    Get over yourself. I heart consent but I’d be more than happy to attend a meeting promoting such ideas and would have probably benefited from it particularly at an earlier age when I was maybe less aware of the prevalence of sexual violence against women. You don’t care enough about these issues to appreciate an invite great, but don’t get all offended.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Oh dear. You’re STILL not aware of the prevalence of sexual violence against women. Very few people are. It’s virtually nothing in the UK today. You’ve just not educated yourself out of the social programming you’ve suffered since age four. Men are the majority victims of every form of assault, regardless of the sex of the perpetrator – and in cases of rape and domestic abuse, it’s women doing most of it.

      Men are scarcely even dating or hooking up with women, let alone pushing their luck, because it’s so dangerous to do so. Christ, there’s even a MGTOW movement.

      • Craig Martin

        It is unfortunate, but many people are oblivious to this point. But then again the incorrect figures and lies coming out of the feminist camp through media shames people into believing them.
        Caroline Criado-Perez once appeared on “This Morning” and stated that 2.23 women died every week to DV.
        The real yearly figure was 77 (which is 77 too many I add) which, divided by the 52 weeks of the year does not come to 2.23 per week.
        But it’s the lies like these that folk believe without checking the evidence, and it is causing problems all around.

        • disqus_QL05BqU79X

          Oh bless Caroline. She’s the daughter of the Sainsbury’s magnate, right? Couldn’t make it up. Why are all feminists privileged arseholes? Because it’s a supremacist cult funded by big money and has been for over a century. Really grim stuff.

          No wonder 80% of women and rising do not associate with the movement at all.

      • Oisín G86

        Well I don’t live or come from the UK but an NSPCC study in 2009 found a third of women and 16% of boys had experienced sexual violence. There is no evidence to show that women are the majority offenders or even close to it although certainly a lot of men are the victims of sexual abuse, most carried out by other men. Domestic violence is an issues increasingly facing men but that doesn’t negate any of my points. MGTOW are a bunch of losers who no other human being is attracted to because they are so pathetic and bitter so they invent a reason so they don’t have to reflect on their own failings.

  • Lizzie Cornish

    This is an excellent blog. Men need to come together to stop this *insanity*. There is a war against men now..and against boys too, with them constantly being put down and ridiculed, made out to be Rapists-in-Waiting by sick women who want ALL women to see themselves as ‘victims’, at ALL times.

    Already they have brainwashed young women into giving up all sense of self-responsibility, into NOT accepting, in any way, the *consequences* of their actions, as my generation was taught.

    They encourage women to dress like sluts, to behave like sluts and to be PROUD for doing so. They encourage women to drink themselves senseless, to have ‘sex’ with total strangers, to put themselves INTO dangerous situations, and then, these perverted women USE these women who ARE harmed as STATISTICS!

    Feminists REFUSE to acknowledge that in some cases both men and women simply arrive on the planet wrongly wired up, leading them to commit terrible crimes in later life, they having no thought for those they harm. They also REFUSE to acknowledge that the most decent human being, when sober, can sometimes turn into the most vile monster when taken over entirely by alcohol, such is the reaction of this drug on their normally normal brains.

    Nope, feminists would RATHER that women WERE harmed/raped/abused by putting themselves into ANY situation, so they can then screech out about how ALL men are vile, sexual predators, just waiting for the right opportunity to pounce and rape.

    It is MAJORLY INSULTING to men…and men MUST come together now to say “ENOUGH!” And…they should refuse to make love to ANY woman until all this sick nonsense is stopped.

    How DARE these mentally deranged women do what they are doing, putting terrible fear into ALL women, making the majority of men who ARE decent, kind, protective human beings, who’d lay down their LIFE to protect a woman or a child, without even thinking about it, feel so bad about themselves!

    Right the way through a man’s life now they are told how bad they are, how they under-achieve, how much better girls are, how they want to hurt and abuse and rape women….

    It’s INSANITY and it’s having a TERRIBLE effect on many young men…and older ones too…

    Sussex Police dropped their recent campaign to try to keep women safe, telling them to look after the most vulnerable (drunk?) in their group and not let them go off with strangers, etc..because The Mad Misandrists went ape-shit and started screaming out ‘Victim Blaming! Victim Blaming!”….

    Not ONCE did they stop and think that actually, the police were absolutely correct…and that their campaign could save lives, could save harm and hurt.

    There will ALWAYS be mentally unwell people in this world, ALWAYS…ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS…and ALL of us, men and women, girls and boys MUST be taught to keep ourselves SAFE as much as we can, because those with mental illness do NOT think as the majority of us do..and they never will do.

    Alcohol is a drug..and it can turn normal people into mentally deranged ones…yet, this too is NEVER spoken about by these stupid women!

    WE were taught to stay safe, to NOT drink ourselves senseless and the majority of my generation (I’m 60) wouldn’t have been seen DEAD being Legless and so out of control, throwing up on city streets….It just DID NOT HAPPEN, because Common Sense was still around…

    Femniists want a world that is not real. They want a world where everyone MUST do whatever they want (so long as it fits in with their outlook, of course) be allowed to behave in whatever way they so chooose (if they’re women) and be SAFE at ALL times.

    This is NEVER going to happen, not EVER, due to reasons given above.

    Therefore, keep your wits about you, STOP drinking to the point of obscenity, STOP dressing/behaving like SLUTS, wobbling your boobs in front of men, then calling them foul names if they respond (we used to call such women ‘prick teasers’ in my day and they were loathed, by both men AND women alike)…get BACK your self-respect, your respect for others, your taking back the consequences of YOUR actions….

    Understand that many of the most radical feminists may well be on the autism spectrum, round about the Asperger area…and that they loathe ANYONE telling them what to do, are very focussed on certain issues…such as…er…feminism….and have trouble enough understanding their own gender, let alone another…being filled with many, many fears which they seek to try to control through rules and regulations, to keep them safe in a world they struggle to understand…

    Many feminists loathe men…they simply don’t ‘get’ men, in the same way Misogynists don’t ‘get’ women. They are both extremists…and they think in an extreme way…

    Most folks are too bloody scared to talk about this, for fear of being shouted down, hated…but I realize that we are now at CRAZY DANGER LEVEL and we MUST start to speak up, because ALL MEN are now in terrible danger from these Extreme Feminists…

    ALREADY they have changed our legal system..and thus, a man can now be sent to prison merely on a woman’s word, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL being needed by the police, nothing! Thus, our justice system has become a Roundabout of Pleasure for Narcissists, Gold-Diggers, Liars, Cheats, Misandrists, Revenge-Seekers and the Mentally Unwell….

    The police, I believe, are TERRIFIED of these feminists…and thus, they cave in, as they did over the Sussex Police Campaign.

    These women are spoiled little brats..and it’s their way or the highway..and because most folks are terrified to stand up to them, they’ve been GETTING their way for a long, LONG time now, but in most recent times, they’ve started up a Whole New Campaign..and this CONSENT one is just one step TOO FAR, now.

    IF a man and women are both drunk, have consensual sex then now, ONLY the man is guilty, if she decideds to scream “RAPE!” the next day. This is PREPOSTOROUS!

    HOW is a man supposed to PROVE a woman gave him consent, wasn’t too drunk when she did so (easy to claim), or that she’s mentally stable….HOW are they supposed to do it?

    There is truly EVIL SHITE going down at present and ONLY MEN THEMSELVES can stop it…

    I’m doing the best *I* can to help sort this mess out..for I’d NOT be the woman I am today were it not for the deep love, wisdom and care shown to me by my Darlin’ Dad…

    This insanity MUST be stopped.

    And..we need to go back to The Old Ways, of getting to know each other, of slowing it all right down, of sex becoming ‘making love’ again, of it MEANING something, with someone you know and care about…Throw Casual Sex out the window, along with the whole Dressing/Behaving like Sluts thing…and most definitely the entire Radical Feminism movement too…

    What kind of women want a HeForShe without a SheForHe?
    What kind of women want to stop FGM but don’t give a damn about little boys who suffer this too?
    What kind of women want breast cancer solved but couldn’t give a fuck about prostate/testicular cancer?

    Answer those questions and there you have Femnism…and it STINKS to High Heaven in my view.

    Women matter, but SO DO MEN in EQUAL AMOUNTS!

    We are HUMANS first, before we are Genders…and these Gender Obsessed Feminists make me SEEEEEEETHE with rage, they truly do!

    They want ALL women to be vicitms, to SEE themselves as victims..and it’s putrid, it truly is, as is the way they want MEN to be responsible for women who are now out totally OUT of control and who have, by their own volition, given up all self-responsibility.

    Gawd, what a MESS has been created, where once, there was happiness, fun, love and trust.

    Well done, George…truly, WELL DONE! You have my deepest respect and admiration.

    Lizzie

    • B11

      This is so beyond ridiculous I can only assume its a joke.

    • Mickster66

      Great post Lizzie, this mess may take some time to clean up, but with people like you around I have great hope it can and will be done.

  • Lizzie Cornish

    Oh..and let’s see The Feminists start up a campaign against the absolute horrors of False Allegations, shall we? Ha! Pigs might fly, eh?

  • Angela p

    Consent is not an option, it is the law, and any intelligent man would be interested in what the law has to say to that respect. Any man should be interested to know how sexual assault and harassment affect women, the prevalence of it, finding ways to stop this epidemic and enable women to study in the same safe environment men enjoy.
    This training should not be optional, it should be mandatory.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Men, submit! MANDATORY SUBMISSION!

      ZEIG HEIL! ZEIG HEIL! ZEIG HEIL! ZEIG HEIL!

  • http://banterloud.com/ armenia4ever

    About time someone called these people out. The idea that men need to be taught not to rape is appalling bigotry and should be denounced as such.

    So should their guilty before proven innocent nonsenses.

    ANY time one of these feminists tells you about how rare false rape accusations are and how we should always belive the victim, immediately accuse them of rape because obviously false accusations are rare and you are a victim who should be believed.

    • Angela p

      You know who is usually most insistent that they are not a rapist? Rapists. False denials of rape are so common as to be banal.

  • Terrence S M Popp

    Here is why the 3rd wave feminists have such a big voice. them men of today have been raised by women and here is a comedy video of what you get. manjinas and white knights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TkiWl_rsVg

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Poppmaster. You’re going to give some pampered British middle-class tosser a heart attack with this. You know that these biologically-adult infants are not trained to think critically.

  • annoyed

    Clearly what you fail to understand is that consent is not as clear as no means no and yes means yes. Myself and the majority of my close friends have been in situations where we were pressured into sex, or said no but the boy carried on and we didn’t stop them. sexual assault isn’t always obvious And neither is consent. Yes boys do need lessons on what consent means .

    • Chris B

      Surely then both males and females need to be taught “self esteem” in order to prevent intelligent human beings feeling they have to present themselves and treat others as pieces of meat? That is the real issue here – self-esteem, followed closely by common sense and decency.
      The objective of mutual respect will not be attained by promoting fear and loathing between genders, and that is what is happening here. Treat men like they are dogs and don’t be surprised when they behave like them.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      He knows exactly what consent means. Now reverse the sexes in that statement you typed. Sexist much?

      When a man says no to a woman, he’s powerless. If he uses force to stop a woman, he’s facing jail for assaulting a woman. Women do use force occasionally (almost lost an eye 14 years ago to a woman forcing herself on me while I was asleep) but tend to manipulate, coerce and shame men using their societal power to accuse and be victims in any situation – kinda like you’re doing with your post.

      It’s women who rape more – and lie more. People are baffled by this fact, but because they’re cattle.

  • Eli Mullis

    First of all, what the hell does a rapist “look like?” Any person is capable of committing rape. They don’t come with a fuckin’ warning sign. The reason these classes exist and are necessary is because so many people like you have a juvenile and simplistic view of consent. If you think you have consent and you actually don’t, then that is rape, by definition.

    Which brings me to my next point: yes does not always mean an enthusiastic and irrevocable “yes.” In fact, consent is never, ever irrevocable. If your partner wants you to stop, you STOP. If your partner is intoxicated, they are not fit to give legal consent. If your partner says “no” over and over again then pressuring them into saying yes is not a valid acquisition of consent. Consent is also not implicitly given just because someone does not say “no.” These are all very common examples of garbage excuses that slimy fuckwads use when they want some thin pretense of consent to justify their predatory behavior.

    Your feelings do not trump students’ safety. Please get over yourself.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Spoken like an actual predator. The voice of privilege…

      “Any person is capable of committing rape.” Steven Hawking would be enamoured with you, ol’ bean!

    • William Gruff

      And your hysterical feelings do not trump the facts. Rape is far less prevalent than feminists claim and teaching young men ‘not to rape’ is nothing more than psychological abuse aimed at destroying them as functioning individuals, in the interests of female supremacy.

      You’re not on sweetie.

  • Rebecca Pâté

    This comments section being stormed by MRAs just further demonstrates how ridiculous their ’cause’ is. Stop being white boi sad and learn how to form meaningful relationships.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Yes, can all MRAs please listen to this racist named after processed liver and remember their place in society? It’s under the bootheel of feminists, crawling in the dirt and not allowed to voice opinions or circulate any scientific research contravening popular fallacy.

      • William Gruff

        My assumption is that Rebecca Pâté’s nom de plume describes the consistency and composition of her brain, and so her mental ability.

        I could be wrong of course.

    • William Gruff

      Rebecca Pâté wrote:

      ‘This comments section being stormed by MRAs just further demonstrates how ridiculous their ’cause’ is.‘

      I’d say that is a non sequitur and a straw man. Well done for squeezing both into one sentence

      She also wrote:

      ‘Stop being white boi sad and learn how to form meaningful relationships.‘

      I’m not ‘white boi (sic) sad’; I’m cis het bigot and proud.

      I don’t know, you nutjob feminists and your meaningless and puerile terms of abuse for healthily normal males. You come up with so many I’m beginning to think it’s a form of masturbation for you.

  • Rick Bradford

    George – Well done for refusing to give in to this exercise in humiliation. And that is what this nonsense is really about. Feminism does not merely want to control your actions, it wants to break you psychologically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1umxQInyjmQ. Your action is laudable and entirely correct. If enough men had the courage to do the same, this misandric nonsense would come to an end.

  • Camomile

    Unfortunately he is what a rapist looks like. As am I. As is anyone. There is no “look” of a rapist, no way of knowing who could or could not have sex without consent. If we could tell what rapists looked like by looking at them we would have a much safer world. And consent is not a simple case of yes means yes and no means no, if only it were. We have universities with a lot of drinking culture, and substance use including alcohol removes the ability to meaningfully consent, and lowers people’s interpretation of whether they have gained consent. Consent, and the other legalities of sexuality including the confusing laws around age of consent and sending photos of yourself when under 16 meaning you are technically a producer of child porn, should be taught at school. But they are not. And so universities have to pick up the buck where our Government and school system fails to equip all young apoplexy with knowledge needed.

    And for those “men’s rights” activists who have jumped on this, including Mike Buchanan who can’t go 5 minutes without spouting nonsense about discrimination, consent is consent for men and women, in same-sex or opposite-sex relationships, and it is important for all young people to learn the law in full and question their understanding of consent in confusing situations, regardless of gender.

  • disqus_QL05BqU79X

    Massive shame on all the feminists below who claim that university “consent classes” should be “mandatory.” Mandatory means something done without consent or choice; to wit: “against one’s will.”

    You’ve all just demonstrated the very same cognitive processing as a rapist.

    • William Gruff

      I’d say the rapist wins in the cognition stakes because he has some conscious intent while the idiots supporting the psychological abuse of young men are simply reacting unthinkingly to conditioned ideological triggers.

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        Well, he or *she* has some intent. Still, I so believe that these commentators have some deep-seated intent insofar as they believe they’re fighting a good cause, even if they’re pushing in the wrong direction by somewhere in the region of 180 degrees.

        I feel for these poor ruminants, I really do. They know nothing of the world right in front of their faces at all, some of them; swallowing ideologies that are so preposterous as to be more unbelievable than any fairy tale ever written. Yet, as you know, young men are dying in droves; the male suicide rate now so high that the police are downgrading some of them as accidents on official records.

        I have a son about to turn 18 and, thankfully, he’s a whip-smart and conscientious young man but I worry about him so much now that he’s thinking of going to university.

    • Angela p

      right, because adding consent and sexual harassment to the mandatory curriculum to inform students about the university’s safety standards is up on par with men forcing themselves on unconsentig women.
      It is mandatory training in most workplaces you go ( since sexual harassers/ abusers are a liability for any business) and it’s been introduced in schools in most western countries.
      But living in a cave, like you do, won’t give you any cognitive functions.

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        I love living in a cave, where I’ve learned to spell. How is it living with your head on backwards?

        No, classes aren’t mandatory in most workplaces at all. The Marxist-feminist public sector, perhaps, but I’ve worked there and not had to suffer such sexist drivel. I’m 44 and never once had to sit and listen to some sociopath telling me that sexual harassment is something (a) men do to women and that (b) it’s just not on. Never met a man in my life who would think otherwise, frankly.

        It’s people like you who might some some education. Women rape men more than men rape women, with impunity. Yes, the solid reseach and links to it are out there, so yes you can look it up. Early days, too. Give it two more years and the known figures will begin to match the domestic violence facts (70% battery committed by women, women almost always strike first in reciprocal abuse) that have been known for decades.

        Men almost never rape women because they’re (a) biologically programmed to protect women and (b) know that even a false accusation can kill. A tiny number do, but almost all men who DO rape women were sexually abused as kids. By women. We know this too. We’re just not allowed a voice, because…well, feminism. Doesn’t tolerate dissenters.

        • William Gruff

          Don’t you know that using facts and logic in an argument with a woman is abusive?

      • disqus_QL05BqU79X

        Oh and your supremacist-style insulting of *both* male and female agency and intelligence puts you on a par with Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

        Hugs. x

  • J

    Only today could common sense be considered ignorance. The fact that anybody that feels groups like this are pointless has to fear that they’ll be met with negative branding is disgusting.
    I don’t think anybody should have to go about their life with others thinking of them as rapists or bad people for no reason. I understand that people will respond with “well we have a fear of being raped”, but as a man I have a fear of any form of assault. That’s considered paranoia in many cases. If I went around assuming every person is out to hurt me, and that I needed to hold classes to tell them not to, that’s almost definitely paranoia.
    You can teach people to be more aware and more considerate all you like, but don’t assume everybody needs it and, and definitely don’t assume you know better than them.

    • disqus_QL05BqU79X

      Orwell had it nailed back in 1949, mate. Freedom is slavery, ignorance is blah blah whatever whatever whatever.

      Google: Gloria Steinem Ms. Magazine CIA and also Betty Friedan Communist Party. All will become clear. You’ll just wish you hadn’t. Sorry.

  • Micqey

    I think this is a brave demonstration and assertion of positive masculinity. Rape is a crime. By it’s very definition a crime is not a “socially normalized” behavior, it is a socially vilified behavior. Everything in society bends towards the common goal of protecting women and children. That is the biological BASIS for our culture. Wake up.

  • Rob

    Excellent Man of High Moral Character. If more men were like him, this world would be a better place. We all know the difference between consentual and non-consentual sex……While studies prove rape is only on the rise from the mass Muslim immigration, we live in a society of Liberals who’s tactic is “If I shout the loudest I’ll get my way, whether it’s right or wrong”….And a media that invites this nonsense. In the Military, we learned Silence is Acceptance. And I find this to be true everywhere. If you are willing to be brow beaten and Shut Up by immoral people who tout Political Correctness for their own devious means to stop conversations about their VERY WRONG ideals, then you are part of the problem….These were tactics started by the Nazis….And Liberals have learned a lot from them.

  • Marcia

    “Yes means yes, no means no. It’s really that simple.”

    Ahahaha right so if it is that simple why do we have laws about the age of consent and intoxication? Because yes is not always yes. Get a grip.

    • lttlemoi

      That’s because children and drunk people are not capable of making informed decisions for which they can be held responsible. It has nothing to do with yes not always meaning yes.

      • Marcia

        Uh huh but his article says nothing about that as a caveat? No discussion of what counts as informed decisions. What about when someone says yes to safe sex but their partner has lied about contraception? Not an informed decision. Would the author consider this rape? Unlikely.

  • Gogo

    jfc just look at the people supporting you down there and seriously reconsider you’re allegiance, bunch of rude screeching racists

  • ArsVampyre

    These ‘classes’ are about money, not about improving society. ‘Rape culture’ is an industry. It’s a made-up issue in order to generate research funding, donations, and create jobs for people without useful skills. Modern western societies don’t have a rape culture, and real statistics show it is exceedingly rare.

    Even the word ‘rape’ in ‘rape culture’ is misused. It doesn’t even mean sexual assault anymore. This is how you get things like ‘stare rape’, as if you could sexually assault someone by viewing them in public dressed the way they chose to dress in public.

    Do not put any stock into ‘rape culture’. It’s as truthful as DnD teaching children to be satanists, videogames turning people into murder machines, or any of the other hysterical nonsense some con-artists have turned into a way to steal money from well-meaning people.

  • Lttlemoi

    I’d kindly tell them to go fuck themselves and that they can stick their misguided condescending whining in their butt. I guess that this is a much more eloquent way to say it.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. Glad that finally someone is stepping up against the 3rd wave feminist brainwashing in some universities.

  • Anon

    Russell Group university has nothing to do with it. I was still raped by a student on Warwick campus, and so have other women. Oh, but no, let’s ignore the problem and sweep it under the carpet as always. Makes me annoyed that you have painted yourself as a victim. Pity that I have met and do know you.

    • William Gruff

      That anything can ‘make’ you annoyed suggests that you have no self-control. That notwithstanding, your claim to have been raped is meaningless here.

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