上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 587ポイント588ポイント  (83子コメント)

Note: he wasn't a former president when he proposed this. He was never a former president while he was alive.

[–]drunkhearthstone 218ポイント219ポイント  (22子コメント)

He's a former president now.

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 81ポイント82ポイント  (18子コメント)

He's also very much not alive!

[–]Fariswheel 45ポイント46ポイント  (14子コメント)

If he is alive, that's a much bigger TIL than any information about his opinions.

[–]john2kxx 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, don't worry. He's not.

[–]Fariswheel 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

Did you check?

[–]acu2005 34ポイント35ポイント  (4子コメント)

I just looked at FDRs wikipedia page and according to that he might be alive, I'm not 100% sure though because someone keeps changing my edits back to saying he's dead.

[–]metalflygon08 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

Twist, FDR is the one changing it to dead.

[–]narayans [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And if this were a movie or TV show, the hacker character will be able to type a few lines into command prompt to triangulate and get a location. And I'd be happy and pleased to watch that.

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'd upvote that one to the front page, for sure, and then run for the hills.

[–]Fariswheel 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

TIL: FDR has returned! RUN!

[–]sexierthanhisbrother 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

TIL: FDR has returned! RUN! WALK BRISKLY!

FTFY

[–]GoogleNoAgenda 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

TIL: FDR has returned! RUN! WALK BRISKLY WHEEL AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

FTFY

FTFY

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

FDR has returned!

Sounds like a tagline to an action movie.

"And he's pissed off."

[–]peppers_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rob Schneider is FDR in a 'Herpa derpa derpa derp, herp derp'

[–]Logic_85 36ポイント37ポイント  (8子コメント)

Nit-pickey, but technically correct.

The best kind of correct.

[–]anon17538 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually it's very likely the VP would have been sworn in before he was pronounced dead. So for a few hours while he was alive he was a former president.

[–]FourAM 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wrong. Referring to any President who is no longer in office should be preceded by the word "former", living or dead.

[–]RichardRogers [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Former President Abe Lincoln freed the slaves

You got a source for that, cause it sounds reeeeeal fucky.

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uhh not when speaking of them in a historical context, and not necessarily true in any case, as even former presidents can still be addressed as "Mr. President"

[–]thingandstuff 873ポイント874ポイント  (186子コメント)

This isn't a bad idea because people shouldn't have these things, it's a bad idea because it blurs the idea about what a "right" is. I think the conception of that idea is extremely important.

Our current rights are not binding impositions on one another which require resources. These rights are, and that makes them very problematic. Our current rights should be respected as an untouchable baseline of society, and we then work towards the goals Roosevelt mentioned.

[–]fredemu 136ポイント137ポイント  (20子コメント)

I think the bigger problem is that they're totally different than the current bill of rights.

The US constitution grantees all rights to everyone in the country from the start, simply by being human. We can take away rights by mutual agreement of society in the form of laws.

The bill of rights is a list of things that the government is not allowed to make laws to do. Thus, you aren't given rights by the constitution - you're guaranteed rights that you already have. The government simply has to do nothing in order to keep giving you those rights (e.g., don't stop you from speaking freely, don't try to force you to testify against yourself, and so on).

The implication with the second bill of rights (which usually implies a social support structure) is that it's not telling the government that it can't deny the rights of people to eat, because nobody would make that law anyway. It's telling the government that it has to create programs to meet those "rights" - it's not a passive thing that you have, it's something that has to be given to you.

Bur worse than that - it also makes an implication that rights are a thing given by the government. It's a subtle difference, but it's an important one. The constitution is there to stop government tyrant - not to hand out rights to citizens that they already have. You do have the right to a decent home and food and so on - but the government isn't going to write a law that you aren't allowed to eat, and that's the only thing that the constitution, if keeping with the same pattern, would be able to prevent.

[–]Hypothesis_Null 13ポイント14ポイント  (11子コメント)

Well said. Shame they don't teach civics in a lot of schools any more. Basic functioning of the government and the reasoning thereof seems lost on a lot of people.

[–]moinnadeem 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

They do.

Source: senior in high school taking AP Government and Politics. Next semester is comparative government.

[–]creepyeyes [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Back when I was a middle-school student in the mid 2000s, we literally had a class titled "Civics"

[–]Fragarach7 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And it wasn't about government, but one of the most popular cars of all time.

[–]Xenomech [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Back when I was in high school, some of the teachers drove Civics. That is as close to an education in civics that I got from school.

[–]onewiseowl [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They do. One of the more important things taught is the notion that the constitution is not a suicide pact, that it can be changed, and that political expectations are dynamic.

[–]2dumb2knowbetter [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well nobody seems to give a shit about the fourth amendment

[–]Lookoutbehind 74ポイント75ポイント  (26子コメント)

I'd even say "who determines what a "good" education is or what a "living" wage is.

[–]commodore32 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

SCOTUS

[–]discountedeggs 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Technically correct, the best kind of correct!

[–]Numericaly7 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the only kinda correct that SCOTUS goes by.

[–]captain_craptain 21ポイント22ポイント  (7子コメント)

Exactly, everything on that side of the debate is relative to what you believe something is worth. Whereas some people argue that people making minimum wage deserve a higher 'living wage', others will argue that they need to learn to live within their means. A 'living wage' is a totally arbitrary term that really doesn't mean anything.

[–]DasRaw 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

If you tally up all basic needs... insurances (auto, health) either a cellphone OR house phone, cost of education, rent/mortgage, food, and a family, as those things are the pursuit of happiness - you don't get that with a measly $16.6k a year BEFORE taxes...(and that number was on a 40 hour work week, which might be trouble for a lot to find) But then one would argue why would the government let corporations allow this blasphemy while also giving away hundreds of millions of dollars in welfare to those corporations.

We live in a world where major business buy each other out, use all resources to do so, claim bankruptcy which tax payers have to pay for, and then jack up the prices/rates of goods/services. This is okay, but saying minimum wage is too low is the fucking worst...

That joke when I was a kid "its opposite day" has transformed into "its opposite world".

[–]Richard_Engineer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Insurance, cellphones, high education, rent/mortgage, and a family are not basic needs.

The only basic needs for a human being are: shelter (read: regulating body temps, doesn't have to be a roof), eating, and drinking. That's it.

All the other things you listed are not needs, they are modern conveniences that allow one to navigate our complex world, but they are FAR from necessities. You may be able to argue that clothing is a basic need, but clothing serves the function of keeping one warm.

Don't muddy the water by conflating needs with wants.

[–]captain_craptain 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree with your points especially about corporate welfare and I would add the issue with incentivizing them to move manufacturing and other jobs overseas.

[–]Vrilmachine [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Exactly. Laws establish the environment for businesses to operate. If we make it such that businesses and large corporations can do these things they will.

Its like my five year old. If he has the opportunity to run around like crazy with no supervision he will do so.

Corporations exist to serve themselves. Laying down at the feet of corporate america has done so much for the middle class right? Since the 80s they have been telling us that making things easier for corporations will make it better for all of us.

Well has it?

If the Government doesnt start protecting people from big business who will? FDR saw this then. Its time we see it again.

[–]practicalprof 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm shocked I found this wisdom on Reddit. Hope for America.

[–]antagonisticsage 220ポイント221ポイント  (63子コメント)

It's worth noting that the rights we have already impose responsibilities on others, whether they're negative or positive.

In political and moral philosophy, there are two different conceptions of "rights." A negative right, such as the right not to be harmed, imposes on others the responsibility not to do something to us. A positive right, on the other hand, imposes responsibilities on others to do something to us or for us. One such example of a positive right is the right to a lawyer; In the supreme court case known as Gideon Vs. Wainwright (1963), the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution obligates the state and federal government to provide a defendant with a lawyer if they request one, free of charge. This is a quintessential example of a positive right in the same vein as the rights Roosevelt proposed here.

Roosevelt's proposal of a Second Bill of Rights is in fact consistent with the conception of rights as most moral philosophers, political philosophers, and legal experts think of it today. It's merely a list of positive rights that he thought we enjoyed in virtue of the fact that they were granted to us by the Constitution, or perhaps, because we are merely human beings.

One last thing: rights, whether positive or negative, always impose duties on other people to obey them. This is thought to be the case in deontological ethics, which was supported by the likes of Immanuel Kant, Thomas Nagel, and other moral and political philosophers.

tl; dr: Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights isn't an aberration of the concept of "rights" in the views of many, if not most philosophers and legal experts.

[–]sharkweekk 83ポイント84ポイント  (12子コメント)

In the supreme court case known as Gideon Vs. Wainwright (1963), the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution obligates the state and federal government to provide a defendant with a lawyer if they request one, free of charge

But only if the person is being prosecuted by the government. You can't just call up the government to get a lawyer to draft a will for you or represent you in a civil case. It's still in essence a protection from the government, a negative right to not be prosecuted by the government without counsel.

[–]Das_Mime48 40ポイント41ポイント  (11子コメント)

It's still in essence a protection from the government, a negative right to not be prosecuted by the government without counsel.

If that were the case and it were truly a negative right, then by refusing to hire or accept a lawyer you could prevent the trial from taking place. The government is required to take a positive action, offering you a lawyer to defend you in court, in order to protect your individual rights. You can mess with semantics all you like but all legal scholars recognize that as a positive right.

[–]sharkweekk 15ポイント16ポイント  (9子コメント)

OK, then make it the right to not be prosecuted without access to counsel. The government doesn't have to provide anyone a lawyer, unless they take the very intrusive action of prosecuting them for a crime. It's like a prisoner's right to not be starved to death (8th amendment). Yes the government must provide prisoners access to food, which is positive right in some sense, but only after they have used their power to intrude heavily on the prisoner's life.

[–]rmwe 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

Could a case be made that by zoning real estate, granting private ownership of wild land through the homesteading act and granting corporate charters to allow pooled cash to sign contracts and hold property - the goverment has massively intruded into the free life of every citizen already?

[–]Das_Mime48 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

The government has to impose upon other people to make up the jury. It's imposing on one group of people in order to protect another person's individual, positive right to a trial by jury. This is a situation, one of many, where the government has to take an active role to protect an individual right. Others, as I said in another comment, include:

  • Right to public education (this is guaranteed by state constitutions rather than federal, and is clearly a positive right which obligates the state to spend a not-inconsiderable amount of money securing that right for the individuals in the state)

  • Right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury

  • Right to be confronted by the witnesses against you

  • Right to bring lawsuits to court (again, generally a state-guaranteed positive right. It obligates states to set up and operate courts for such matters)

  • Right "to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor", meaning that the defendant's individual, positive rights can actually compel the actions of other people through a court-issued subpoena.

  • The right to demand that the government enforce the terms of legal contracts between individuals. This is another example of an individual's positive right imposing a requirement both on the government and on other people.

[–]marsman 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

OK, then make it the right to not be prosecuted without access to counsel..

For a jury trial....?

[–]Precursor2552 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

While both do certainly exist, the US has a much more limited set of positive rights (compared to the ECHR). As seen in Deshaney v. Winnebago County where they certainly set limits as to how far the 14th establishes a positive obligation on the state.

[–]NakedAndBehindYou 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution obligates the state and federal government to provide a defendant with a lawyer if they request one, free of charge. This is a quintessential example of a positive right

Not exactly. If the government chooses to not prosecute, then you have no right to the lawyer.

In other words, the right to a lawyer is not a positive right of the individual. It is a limitation on the right of the government to enforce their laws on individuals. "Okay government, you can enforce the laws, but with the restriction that anyone prosecuted must have a lawyer."

The expense of the lawyers is 100% within the government's power to control by simply not prosecuting people. Whereas, compared other positive rights like a right to healthcare or education, it is not so.

[–]moreworkouts 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Roosevelt's 2nd Bill of Rights (2BoR) would have been a huge expansion on the common definition of rights as seen in the original 10 amendments.

The "positive" rights in the 1BoR are only related to things involving government detention, essentially.

  • 1: Freedom to speak
  • 2: Freedom to own weapons
  • 3: Freedom from obligation to quarter troops
  • 4: Freedom from unwarranted searches
  • 5: Freedom from double jeopardy and self-incrimination
  • 6: Speedy trial, and so on. This is probably the closest to a "positive right" amendment, but again, only with regards to government detention and deprivation of liberty.
  • 7: Trial by jury - see 6
  • 8: Right not to be tortured by the government
  • 9: Clarification on intentions
  • 10: Provision of all other rights to the states and people.

The 2BoR would have imposed a much broader, civil burden on the government to provide (or require private businesses to provide) wages, housing, medical care, etc.

You are correct in your broader analysis, but your tl;dr is really off the mark.

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

tl; dr: Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights isn't an aberration of the concept of "rights" in the views of many, if not most philosophers and legal experts.

They're not going to listen, though you are entirely correct.

[–]thingandstuff -1ポイント0ポイント  (20子コメント)

I don't agree with the positive and negative right dichotomy, and I think it's a poor way to frame the issue.

Can you think of any other examples of "positive rights".

One such example of a positive right is the right to a lawyer; In the supreme court case known as Gideon Vs. Wainwright (1963), the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution obligates the state and federal government to provide a defendant with a lawyer if they request one, free of charge. This is a quintessential example of a positive right.

I wouldn't call that an individual right, personally. Sure, individuals make use of it, but it's a condition of the justice system, not the right of an individual -- though I'm sure I don't make a convincing case for this view.

It's not: citizen gets lawyer.
It's: IF the state decides to prosecute, THEN citizen gets lawyer.

One last thing: rights, whether positive or negative, always impose duties on other people to obey them.

This clearly wasn't what I saw talking about with respect toward the difference between the right to free speech and the right to have a house.

[–]antagonisticsage 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's a positive right of the legal kind. Roosevelt is only proposing positive legal rights, so I'm focusing on the concept of legal rights and not moral rights here. There's a distinction.

You said that, and I quote,"Our current rights are not binding impositions on one another." This isn't actually consistent with the notion of rights in the sense that philosophers and legal experts understand them.

The right to free speech and the right to have a house both impose obligations on others to respect them, even though those obligations have to be upheld in different ways. This accurately addresses your concerns about how rights should be conceptualized, whether you want to admit it or not, and I have your quote to back that claim up. You think rights don't impose responsibilities on other people to respect them, and most moral philosophers and legal experts don't agree with you.

By the way, Gideon Vs. Wainwright still establishes a positive right, even if that right is conditional. It's conditional on whether or not I get prosecuted. It doesn't mean I don't have a positive right. It obligates the government to do something for me in certain circumstances. By definition, that's still a positive right.

You should look into the literature on this subject.

[–]Gardnersnake9 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think you're misunderstanding the original argument. Any legally recognized individual right imposes a duty or responsibility on others not to violate that right. Freedom of speech requires legal protections against unjust censorship, just as the right to life requires legal protection against murder. These laws do not demand any action of others than to simply not violate them. No one has to provide for you the subject of these legal rights, as theyre inherent to our existence. These rights are recognized to exist before their legal manifestation; hence the terminology "God given" or "inalienable". The laws associated with these rights exist only to prevent society and government from violating these basic rights.

The right to have a home carries with it an entirely different level of responsibility and burden, that is not even remotely comparable to the responsibility required by freedom of speech. For one to have the right to a home, someone must build and provide that home. A home isn't inherent to our existence in the way freedom of speech and the right to life are. You're born with the ability to speak freely; you're born with a life; you aren't born with a house and a living wage, someone must provide those.

[–]zolzks_rebooted1 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

The Indian constitution, which is inspired by the US constitution, distinguishes between "Fundamental Rights" and "Directive Principles of State Policy".

For that section it notes off the top:

Article 37 Application of the principles contained in this Part.

The provisions contained in this Part shall not be enforceable by any court, but the principles therein laid down are nevertheless fundamental in the governance of the country and it shall be the duty of the State to apply these principles in making laws.

Here is a link for those interested

For those wondering what actual effect this has, everything besides "Right to work" has seen significant implementation, though some might see this last statement as a little contentious.

[–]Okichah 22ポイント23ポイント  (9子コメント)

The original bill of rights were the philosophical achievement of a generation of thinkers. Collectively providing each citizen with natural rights not provided by the state, but indelibly above the state.

These "rights" are something that the state would provide and enslave the people to the power of the state. Instead of people being free of it.

[–]captain_craptain 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree, I see all this 'benevolence' on his part as nothing more than a typical power grab by someone in power dressed up as a winning lottery ticket.

This is par for the course when it comes to the Federal government. "Oh you don't want to lower all of your states speed limits to 55 MPH? Then we'll just stop sending you checks for highway repairs." OR "Oh you don't want to follow our recommended Education guidelines? Then we'll just stop sending you checks for Education expenses."

Carrot and the stick.

[–]Precursor2552 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd avoid South Africa's Constitution.

[–]Maniacal_Musings 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Many people also confuse "having rights to" as being equal to "being forced to take".. which is all sorts of weird. Both of which somewhat apply to the current healthcare BS.

That is, no one in the US can now be denied medical insurance on the basis of actual or supposed prior conditions which would fall in to the "right to have" category. Which is fine, as long as it does not come hand in hand with an expectation to be able to receive something for free. Even the Right to free speech comes with its own secondary stipulation which limit context and adds accountability in practice which can be construed as a type of cost involved in the practice of the right it self. Even then you can speak out if you want, or you can choose not to.. its the individuals choice on the matter.

Now, with regard to the health insurance stuff the mandate that got pushed in to it would be the "being forced to take" category and is messed up in all sorts of ways. (Also we should all thank the douchebags at the heritage foundation and Gingrich for the origin of the mandate policy concept.)

[–]Muppetude 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agreed. Fundamental rights are more workable and less prone to abuse when they are written as proscriptions on government power. His proposed amendment just confers vague affirmative duties to the government that could be widely misinterpreted or used improperly.

[–]Hypothesis_Null 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

used improperly.

You misspelled "buy votes".

[–]HandySamberg [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The difference is negative and positive rights.

[–]benito823 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Exactly, you can't have a right to have other people give you things. These so called rights are a blatant contradiction.

Right to a job? Employed by who?

Right to medical care? Provided by who?

Right to a home? Built by who?

[–]krooch [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

When one person claims a right to the product of another person's labor, we have a word for that.

Slavery.

[–]placewhereusernameis 85ポイント86ポイント  (13子コメント)

Says the dude who didn't even apply the first one to section of American citizens due to mass hysteria

[–]Lews-Therin-Telamon1 33ポイント34ポイント  (1子コメント)

Neither did Congress or SCOTUS.

That court case has never been overturned.

[–]flakAttack510 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, that's probably mostly because no one has been in a position to challenge it since. The Supreme Court can't just declare things.

[–]I_am_a_weenie 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

Can you explain what happened?

[–]abide1187 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm guessing its a reference to the internment camps which many americans of asian descent were imprisoned in during WWII.

[–]Dr_Marxist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Not "Asian," specifically Japanese. The Chinese actually had pins that said "I Am Chinese" on them so they wouldn't get mixed up.

[–]ztary 76ポイント77ポイント  (14子コメント)

Way to bring the Libertarians out of the woodwork.

[–]JobDestroyer 68ポイント69ポイント  (6子コメント)

We plot to take over the world only so we can leave everyone alone.

[–]ConservativeAtheist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's a nice change of pace from the usually reddit Sand-men.

[–]RasslinsnotRasslin 30ポイント31ポイント  (6子コメント)

Those things are good but they aren't rights. Rights exist extant of society and are inherent of the natural law. A service isn't a right

[–]RedditThinksImABot 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

what about trials/courts, aren't those a "service" to some extent?

[–]Entropist713 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

If you're talking about the 6th Amendment, the right to a speedy trial isn't stating a right to trial, per say, but rather a guarantee that the government wont keep postponing the trial date, effectively incarcerating you forever.

[–]koaladruglord 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

GOD, just imagine how complicated that would be in interpreting this nowadays. What would constitute a good education, etc?

[–]Dr_PaulProteus 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

How about a k-12 that meets some standards that we decide are appropriate (i.e. set by a ministry of education at the state level)?

[–]suburban_rhythm [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

We already have that. If you want to fix education, look into tighter/smarter controls on how schools spend their money.

[–]sjryan 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

Funny how there's always a trillion bucks laying around for another Middle East war or Wall Street bailout, but when it comes to education and health care, 'we can't afford it.'

[–]smithsp86 23ポイント24ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah, Roosevelt didn't have the best understanding of the difference between a right and a privilege.

[–]ZapPowerz 58ポイント59ポイント  (41子コメント)

I have a right to be happy and I have a right to your stuff to make me happy. If you disagree with me, then you hate the demographic I represent.

[–]chayatoure 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is one of the most depressing comment threads I've ever read on reddit. Is it really that crazy that healthcare and college should be affordable and accesible. Apparently in the US that's the same as redistribution of wealth.

[–]WatcherOfTheWatchers 57ポイント58ポイント  (55子コメント)

Ah yes. The stupid idea of "positive rights". Sorry but if it requires the money and work of another person, its not a "right".

[–]nmhunate 62ポイント63ポイント  (36子コメント)

So I don't have a right to an attorney?

[–]kingcobra5352 54ポイント55ポイント  (14子コメント)

Only if the government brings charges against you.

[–]ranhalt 19ポイント20ポイント  (13子コメント)

Well, not only then. Really you have the right to an attorney all the time, even when you don't need one. No one can stop you from having legal representation at any time. The "Miranda Rights" are just the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, and they all the time; police are just required to inform/remind you of those rights as you are arrested so you have the knowledgeable choice to not intentionally or unintentionally incriminate yourself before receiving legal representation.

The only reason police are required to inform you of your rights if because Ernesto Miranda was coerced into confession during interrogation without knowing he had the right to legal representation and was found guilty of kidnapping and rape. After the USSC found in his favor that the original conviction had to be nullified, the State of Arizona retried him without the unlawful confession and still found him guilty.

[–]Pupikal 25ポイント26ポイント  (8子コメント)

Really you have the right to an attorney all the time, even when you don't need one.

You're getting things mixed up. /u/kingcobra5352 is saying that you have a right to be PROVIDED an attorney ONLY if the government brings charges against you. You're saying you have a right to RETAIN an attorney for any reason you want. Both are true.

[–]OpRaider 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

How could they retry him? Is that not double jeopardy?

[–]ranhalt 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I tried to clarify that the first conviction was nullified, rendered invalid by the USCC. Plus, Miranda appealed the conviction, which waives the risk of double jeopardy. If the State tries a person for a crime and is found not guilty, but later finds evidence to support the conviction, they can't. Double jeopardy rules help the people, not the state.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20130526-man-arrested-in-murder-case-goes-free-because-of-double-jeopardy.ece

[–]Fastfish 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Incorrect. The only time you have a right to an attorney is when you are being prosecuted. You can seek an attorney any time you want, but if you are not being prosecuted, the government does not guarantee that you will get one.

Here is the text of the sixth amendment:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

[–]firefan53 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You only get an attorney if the government is bring charges against you.

[–]CatsAreGods 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you even pay taxes, bro?

[–]DonCarloGesualdo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's why inheritance is not a right that is enforced by law.

[–]jaretok 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Who would want that?! I would rather struggle to find low paying work, so I can support a small, elite ruling class of bitch ass motherfuckers. Who wouldn't?

[–]CasuallyErect 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Me, for one. I want all people to be able to have those things. I don't want to be legally responsible for providing it to them.

[–]radar_technician 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah yes, the questionable "right" to a thing someone else has to provide.

[–]ILikeMyDogNotYours 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

"displays social contract where you signed in blood that you agreed to this."

[–]DraculaBranson [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

was it a proposal for every american, black white and asian or just white?

[–]horseradishking [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What about a right to a vacation home?

[–]EddieVisaProphet [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

God, Reddit's really on a pretty big Bernie Sanders, Socialism, "new rights" Circle Jerk. We get it. The Government should start affording "rights to a job with a living wage, adequate medical care, the right to a decent home, and the right to a good education" even though the majority of Americans has every fucking single one of these already. Whoa be to us Americans. Our 1st world lives are so hard, so give me more. Stop distorting what Roosevelt was saying as if he and Sanders were one and the same.

Now Franklin Roosevelt will become some kind of Sanders-prototype Reddit God who we can all bring up as if he were the final authority on human affairs within the U.S.

[–]TheMadMullah 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good thing that shit never went anywhere, you can't "legislate away poverty". Unless you want to end up like Venezuela that is.

[–]b0wchicab0w0w 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's literally a politician saying politician things. "Everyone should have the right to be rich and money and happy and healthy and blahhhh." None of that is actually possible to carryout nor is it necessary. People work harder when they aren't given things for free. Stupid politic bull shit.

[–]86maxwellsmart 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Those are not rights, they're entitlements. If an alleged right has to be provided by, and\or paid for by, someone else then it's not a right.

[–]CombativeAccount [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What about a country like France who declares internet access a fundamental human right? Do you consider it not a human right because somebody has to provide the internet?

[–]mavnicks 20ポイント21ポイント  (91子コメント)

Roosevelt, the left's hero. Paving the road for future socialists.

[–]orr250mph 26ポイント27ポイント  (86子コメント)

So a good job and house, education, and medical care is socialism?

[–]mavnicks 45ポイント46ポイント  (57子コメント)

It is if you are redistributing the wealth in order to accomplish that.

[–]HolidayInnCambodia 22ポイント23ポイント  (35子コメント)

It is if you are redistributing the wealth in order to accomplish that.

Every government ever redistributes wealth in some way. That doesn't make them socialist. I think you need to go back and read more about socialist theory.

[–]Hypothesis_Null 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is a distinct difference. Taking money from everybody, and using it for things that benefit everybody, is reasonable. A National highway system is a pretty good example of that.

But taking money from some people, and not others (income tax) and giving money to some people, and not others (entitlements, welfare, etc) is the kind of vote-buying power grab that flies in the face of a free society, and which our constitution was expressly constructed to prevent.

[–]orr250mph 7ポイント8ポイント  (17子コメント)

If redistributing wealth benefits corporations, then why not people?

[–]mavnicks 32ポイント33ポイント  (14子コメント)

I don't think corporations should get corporate welfare of any kind - that is crony capitalism.

[–]SouthShoreBum 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

Eliminating crony capitalism doesn't fit the agenda so it gets lumped in with all capitalism. You can try and explain the difference until your blue in the face but a bunch of 19 year old know it alls are just going to respond with "hurr durr go move to Somalia the free market paradise".

[–]Ameisen1 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't think corporations should get corporate welfare of any kind - that is crony capitalism.

Which is the end result of capitalism. You keep talking about this 'pure' form of capitalism as though it's a thing (you actually don't know what the term means, as you're referring to a free market economy, but whatever). You neglect to understand that a true free-market, capitalist society is going to become crony capitalist, once any level of discrepancy exists in wealth between organizations. All you've done is establish a power vacuum, which corporations are going to fill.

Capitalism guarantees net upwards movement of wealth. The rich get richer, and there is a limited amount of wealth. Thus, in the end, income disparity is guaranteed and gets worse. The entire reason that welfare states exist was because the income disparities of the 19th and early 20th centuries were agitating the workers to a point that the upper class were terrified of a potential revolution, so it was a 'band-aid'.

[–]jason_stanfield 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If one obtains those things from the state, and not as a result of their own effort, yes.

[–]magiteker 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

When society is structured to guard against predatory forms of economics, yes

[–]Okichah 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

When provided by the state? Sure.

If the government enacts policies that provide people with the freedom to pursue these things on their own? Then no.

The state is too clumsy to adequately provide all these services. Each of these services has an infrastructure supporting it. And the state can either take control of that infrastructure as well or play favorites with suppliers and producers. This power leads to bribery and corruption as those contracts are worth millions of dollars.

[–]orr250mph 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the state should remove the mortgage interest deduction since its state provided right?

[–]imlistening123 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

A good job is something earned, as is a house.

[–]orr250mph 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Usually by education which apparently is also socialist. Best to remain ignorant and trust in God right?

[–]imlistening123 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Usually, yes. Public education is available to all US citizens though, so I don't fully understand your point; especially with the false cause nicely tucked in at the end. Plus, any adult can teach themselves something new. The library is free, and they have the internet there (also free).

The US has some socialist programs anyway, people get too worked up over the term.

[–]CIthrowAway 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Devil's advocate here, I don't really have a side in the issue, a GOOD job is never stated as a right, just a job is. I'm going to assume if you are unskilled, the government will give you a job digging ditches or flipping burgers in this scenario.

[–]imlistening123 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right. I may have worded that deliberately, but that's what was used before.

[–]rolfraikou 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you fucking learn what a socialist is already?

[–]unicornfetus 17ポイント18ポイント  (34子コメント)

Yeah who's gonna pay for all of that?

[–]jpguitfiddler 37ポイント38ポイント  (30子コメント)

Job with a living wage = income tax. Imagine if all bigger corporations like walmart didn't just pay minimum wage to nearly every employee. That would be quite a bit of more money filtering to schools, housing, etc. Saying there's no way to do it is just being lazy about finding an adequate solution.

[–]BanditMcDougal 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

I've contemplated "the law of unintended consequences" if we woke up one morning and all the "big box stores" started paying 150-200% the area average for a given job. We might see a shift in the types of staff these companies employed; a companies expect more from employee they are paying well. They expect more reliability, more productivity, more experience/natural skill to build on top of. In short; the company expects a good return on that higher investment. We might see a lot of people complaining they weren't qualified to be a stockboy at Wal-mart.

Although... if all the "big box stores" are going this route, then it becomes the new base for expected income for those types of roles. So... we might not see the shift. Instead, we could end up seeing is a demand from more skilled, more experienced workers in the workforce as a whole demanding an increase in pay, as well. That would, I fear, lead to inflation.

[–]rolfraikou 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Inflation isn't so scary when people earn more. As long as it balances out, rather than goes out of control.

I think the real issue we have is that the Walmart heirs are still worth something like $20 billion each (last I looked), which equotes to them earning more than a few dollars per SECOND for every second they have lived.

They can't fucking spend their money. A lot of it is locked up into walmart itself, but let's say they have a "modest" billion. They buy a few cars, a few planes, a few houses, and then just sit on the rest of their money.

That money is doing nothing other than being had.

If they had to actually invest more of it into their workforce they would still have multiple houses, private jets, and still have a lot of savings.

Sometimes I think we don't even need money from the 1%, we just need some of the 0.1% to pay more and we would be fine.

A gigantic lump of money not circulating is really bad for the economy. I understand you do with your money what you will, but for fuck's sake, if it means damaging the entire system, clearly we have a problem.

[–]BanditMcDougal 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Inflation isn't so scary when people earn more. As long as it balances out, rather than goes out of control.

But, if it just ends up balancing out, haven't we just moved 0? A while back, I got curious and graphed out minimum wage since it started in 1938 and inflation based on 1938 dollars. The trend is pretty cool to see.

I'm not saying there is any causation here; but there does seem to be some correlation between the two.

[–]ZombieAlpacaLips 4ポイント5ポイント  (20子コメント)

So what happens when Walmart raises all their prices to compensate for higher labor costs and then your "living wage" buys exactly the same amount of stuff that their current wages buy? Except now they're in higher tax bracket, so they have less money to spend.

[–]Revenge_of_the_Smith 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Labor only accounts for a percentage of the cost of goods or services. Doubling the minimum wage would result in a 25% increase for most goods and services. The increase in income would outweigh the increase of goods and services, so more people would still have more disposable income to spend. This creates a higher demand for goods and services and leads to job creation and lower unemployment rates.

[–]CQReborn 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

People say this like corporations would just indefinitely raise the prices of their goods or take their business elsewhere. There would eventually be someone else that would provide the goods at a lower price (IE competition) and we are the biggest consumer market in the world, you don't just leave that because your profit margins aren't perfect.

Hell, half the business related shit governments deal with these days are just corporations trying to block competition so they can maintain their profits. If we are in a position where businesses are trying to create artifical inhibitors to competition then we aren't in a position where corporations are hanging on by their fingertips 'just tryin to scrape by'. This is why we have trillion dollar tax havens overseas too, right?

[–]moeriscus 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

Because that's not how any of this works. Wages are only one factor in wal-mart's operating costs (and thus price calculations). Additionally, as you might also infer, wal-mart employees are not the only people shopping at said store. It is not a simple zero-sum game or closed system between employer/retailer and employee/consumer..

Also, that's not how income tax brackets work. Generally speaking, the higher tax rate applies to only to that portion of your income earned above the previous bracket demarcation.

Tl;dr your statement is uninformed or (more likely) mal-informed

[–]fkinusername_432 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

We need a "livinger wage."

[–]AsksAboutCheese 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well they only need to raise prices $0.01 according to this video

[–]ChucklesOHoolihan 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour would increase the price of a $16 product at Walmart, such as the typical DVD, by just a cent if all of the extra costs were passed on to consumers, according to an analysis by an economist for Bloomberg News.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-20/minimum-wage-debate-prompts-u-s-retailers-to-plot-strategies

[–]jason_stanfield 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The 1%, of course.

Weren't you paying attention to all those smelly hippies economics majors in the park with their tents and bongos a few years ago?

[–]yonreadsthis 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's the job of the government to make sure the people are safe. The people in the USA are not safe. A living wage, medical care, a decent home, and a good education would go quite a long ways towards safety.

But to care about the people's safety, you have to think that people are really people. The powers that run the USA right now see the people as expendible or at least interchangeable. Franklin saw people as people.

[–]Mrpettit 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Then you would support having more and more police officers, random home checks, military in the street, and NSA being expanded even more for safety right?

[–]TheSpiceMustAirflow 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

But to care about the people's safety, you have to think that people are really people.

Funny thing to say coming from a sociopath that only sees resources instead of people. If you truly thought people were people, you would respect their right to their hard-earned money and wouldn't fuck them over with massive taxation to pay for government programs. But hey, one man's a tragedy, one million is statistics.

[–]Clowdy1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If you truly thought people were people you'd do what was best for all of them instead of just serving yourself as an individual.

[–]naegermeister 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

shit's expensive, man.

[–]jpguitfiddler 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

It's funny how some people on here are like "Nobody should be entitled to somebody else's hard work." while you have no problem with that money you worked so hard for paying for politicians salaries and 250,000 homes. You know they "work" so hard 30 weeks a year. "I won't give my money to anyone who doesn't work for it!! Here you go capital hill, here's 40% of my income." Durp.

[–]pewpfeast420 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can guarantee you that anybody who says that is not a big fan of politicians making great money off of taxpayers and barely working.

[–]TropicalAmerican 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know about you, but my area has improved DRASTICALLY thanks to tax dollars. We've gotten overpasses and all kinds of infrastructure upgrades with new shops and new everything the past 5 years. I'll gladly pay tax

[–]rolfraikou 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think people forget, Walmart will never pay to build an overpass just to get customers to their stores.

[–]Toddler_Fight_Club 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I live in a place where $250,000 won't buy you a studio condo. Why? Partially because demand for housing has been artificially increased by subsidies, while supply remains stagnant due to regulatory and bureaucratic barriers.

[–]Bornandbread 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, cause we have a choice in that matter.

[–]TheSpiceMustAirflow 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure thing buddy, A robber takes 40% of my income every month and you try to make a joke saying that is voluntary? So, similarly, you supported the war on iraq and think police brutality is ok, since you too fund it?

[–]circlhat 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, people have a problem with that also. They also have a problem paying for other peoples children, single mother hood is on the raise and welfare is out of control.

I know women with 5-6 babies, in fact most girls in my community do just this and why should they stop, they get a house for free, a car for free, food for free.

People also have a problem with paying for useless wars , trillions of dollars of national debt looking for weapons that don't exist.

[–]rolfraikou 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

What? Where do you live? No one here gets a free house.

[–]Roadguy 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I believe we already have these rights. I think some people are confusing having rights with having things given to you for nothing.

[–]rolfraikou 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do me a favor. Look at the pay rates, and cost of houses, food, vehicles. Adjust for inflation from a few points in american history. (maybe 50s, 60s 70s, 80s) Tell me what you find.

I'm not saying it because I don't want to spin a bias on here. You can guess what I might be getting at, but I want other people to look at the numbers too, and tell me their view on it.

[–]TheSpiceMustAirflow 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

We kinda don't. minimum wage is exactly the opposite of the right for a job. It says you're FORBIDDEN to be employed if your boss doesn't pay the governments' magical number. It's the anti-right for a job.

[–]stringerbell 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

He called this the Over-the-Republicans-Dead-Bodies Bill.

[–]Shadowbanned4lyfe 22ポイント23ポイント  (5子コメント)

majority of Republicans in the mid century were moderate to liberal compared to modern day GOPers.

Edit: sad that down-voters don't understand U.S. political history.

[–]TheNexusKid 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dixiecrats. The parties essentially flip flopped because of race issues.

[–]ubspirit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And it never went through because it was totally infeasible.

[–]NlghtmanCometh 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So he was basically Bernie Sanders before it was cool.

[–]amolad 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

From The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by the UN in 1948. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Drafting Committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt, who was known for her human rights advocacy.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

[–]leDesespoir 0ポイント1ポイント  (33子コメント)

I'm not really fond of the "give the poor everything" mentality. This gives people 2 options: 1) Stay poor and benefit from the government, or 2) Become successful and be crushed by the government because it needs your money to pay for impoverished people's benefits.

[–]nmhunate 10ポイント11ポイント  (24子コメント)

Do you think people will actually be poor just to get government cheese?

[–]Tolham 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

If the cheese is better than what they could afford by earning a taxed income, then yes they would.

[–]bool_idiot_is_true 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think you're suffering under a misapprehension. a) If the entire economy is so based around redistributing wealth the poor that the non-poor are "crushed" than no one will have any buying power and the economy will stagnate. And then no one wins. I see the basic necessities of life as a human right. If there aren't enough resources to supply that than its tragedy but I understand that trying to build a true utopia is a folly. That said I find the idea of anyone refusing to even do what they can because of selfish reasons to be fucking sociopaths.

b) If it were a simple put effort in and get wealth based on the amount of effort you put in I might agree with you. But at the end of the day success is based more on luck than anything else. Hard work helps, sure, but when there are so many variables outside of your control (race, gender, socio-economic status of your parents, random genetic gifts and advantages) it seems pretty fucked up to use that argument. Just because life isn't fair doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make it as fair as possible. Maybe I'm just weird; but I see it as a moral responsibility. To paraphrase an old saying, "the only time evil can flourish in the world is when good men do nothing." Is a slightly bigger portion of your income as taxes that much of a hardship?

[–]AnonymousisAnonn 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

He also tried to abolish the Supreme Court, because they disagreed with him. No seriously, he wanted to literally do away with 1/3 of our government.

[–]Sanhael 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" is not just flowery language. The government is supposed to be protecting our rights to those. If something is critical to my survival, to my remaining free of incarceration, and to my ability to pursue a satisfying existence based upon the standards established by our society at any given time, I have a right to that (Edit: clarification/grammar). The government isn't responsible for making me happy or successful, but it is responsible for ensuring that the means to make myself happy and successful -- Buddhist koans about happiness aside -- are available to me.

[–]Freeiheit 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Positive rights such as a "right" to healthcare or housing cannot exist, because they place demands upon others, and infringe their rights. If such "rights" existed, one could sue a doctor who refused to preform services for free, or a man who refused to share his house with you for violating your rights. Such a result is absurd and unjust

[–]Symphon 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

As a Canadian citizen, I live within an hour of the border to your country. I recently went to see my doctor my make sure my COLD wasn't something worse. Free.

The right to healthcare saves you money in the same way that insurance does. You pay a premium so that when you need it, it is covered. The benefit of public healthcare is that your money is DIRECTLY used to treat other people in need, instead of lining a investment banker's pocket.

[–]RobO2112 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

“We ask that the government undertake the obligation above all providing citizens with adequate opportunity for employment and earning a living.”

“The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within its confines and be for the good of all. Therefore, we demand…an end to the power of the financial interest.”

“We demand profit sharing in big business.”

“We demand a broad extension of care for the aged.”

“We demand…the greatest possible consideration of small business in the purchases of the national, state, and municipal governments.”

“In order to make possible to every capable and industrious [citizen] the attainment of higher education and this the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around enlargement of our entire system of public education…We demand the education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents.”

“[We] combat the…materialistic spirit within and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people and can only proceed from within on the foundation of The Common Good Before the Individual Good.”

Sounds like a good idea.

[–]rasputin777 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Unless you're Japanese in which case we're gonna throw you in camps. Thanks FDR!

[–]kombatunit 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey now, they are crafty as fuck.