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[–]noteven0s -8ポイント-7ポイント  (13子コメント)

And FWIW, a properly conducted breath test is every bit as accurate as a properly conducted blood test.

I disagree. There are a TON of assumptions the machine makes on breath tests. For those in the middle sigmas of people and situations, those assumptions are pretty accurate. For unusual situations and physiology, they may not be.

I understand the courts have found them to be scientifically accurate. But, the thing they compare the results to is the blood test. I also understand the "properly conducted" portion of the answer as well. But, properly conducted in breath testing is far more difficult than in blood testing. There are a lot more variables that must be accounted for, sometimes from observation, that is not readily provable but by the testimony of the person who arrested the suspect. I mean, I know you observed the suspect closely for 15 minutes while you were preparing the Intoxilyzer 9 bazillion for testing to make sure he didn't belch or hiccup. I'm not sure everyone is as cautious before putting in the standard claim in the report.

[–]Citicop 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

I disagree.

And you are welcome to do so.

I am a certified DWI enforcement instructor, and hold a Type 2 permit in the state of Missouri which allows me to maintain breath testing units as well as to train others on their use.

Feel free to post the qualifications you hold which give your opinion any weight here.

Also feel free to point out specific issues which would cause a properly administered breath test to be inaccurate compared to a properly administered blood test.

[–]noteven0s -3ポイント-2ポイント  (8子コメント)

[–]Citicop 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'm aware of all that.

Some of that is taken care of by properly conducting the test. Some of it requires ridiculous assumptions (like the suspect ingesting something that will affect the test which would not render the suspect unconscious or dead.

So, which specific circumstances would cause those errors. Blood tests, when improperly conducted, can have all kinds of issues as well.

So please enlighten me- which circumstances would interfere with a properly conducted breath test?

Be specific, I'd love to hear your expert opinion on this.

[–]noteven0s -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

You claimed:

And FWIW, a properly conducted breath test is every bit as accurate as a properly conducted blood test.

That is a false statement. I responded to it. If for no other reason than the blood test is, in most states, definitional for...um...the blood alcohol concentration. To even consider if a breath sample is correct for determining the BAC, they compare it to blood tests.

You can do the research for why there is a difference found between the two. Much of it may be because the test was performed incorrectly. But, even when studies are done by experts (actual doctors and doctorates), there is variation. Some is statistical, some may have other sources. Hyperglycemia is one possibility of error. While many defense attorneys might claim "diabetes" as a cause for the high reading on the breath they have a problem because of real world observation. It is low blood sugar that might cause impairment observed by an officer while it is high blood sugar that might give a false reading on the breath test. But, it is the combination of the two that gives rise to driving under the influence. Hypoglycemia alone can give a higher breath test result than the BAC would be. GERD is another. I know, that was the reason for the caveat of "properly conducted" and why the suspect is watched for 15 minutes and why two samples are taken at different times. But, even then, the procedure only reduces the chance of error, it does not eliminate it.

Then we get to the basic statistic, 1:2100. The claim is that such a ratio favors the person as the actual ratio is around 1:2300--thus making a rounding down of the BAC. But, that is what I talked about in the first post in regard to the "middle sigmas" of population. The ratio varies among people. (For those other than Citicop as he knows, that is the calculation the machine makes to translate concentration in the breath to concentration in the blood.) The ratio on large samples seem to be distributed as a normal bell curve. The numbers on the curve may differ--depending on the size of the study and the accuracy of the instruments and perhaps other facts. But, no matter which study, it is a bell curve.

In a bell curve, the middle two sigmas cover 68.2% of the population. The middle four covers 95.5% and the middle six covers 99.7% of the population. That's not argument, that's just math. One good study has the middle two sigmas (With the median [technically the modal] being 2280:1.) range from 2038 to 2521. The next two from 1797 to 2763. With the next two from 1555 to 3005. That variation is the statistical reason why the breath test is simply not as accurate as the blood test when both are properly done.

A lot of the studies seem from the '80s and '90s in regard to other physiological issues. I assume the more modern machines have adapted to resolve some of them, like the need to take temperature of the breath. Each particular type of machine also has bias of its own based on testing method.

[–]Citicop 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hyperglycemia is one possibility of error.

Is it?

Because modern breath testing instruments screen for acetone (the chemical which might cause this) and if the test results are affected by it at all, the instrument has to be able to flag it as an interfering substance and return an invalid test result before NHTSA will approve it for use.

Same with GERD. Modern breath testing instruments are able to screen for mouth alcohol (the reason that GERD would cause an inaccurate testing number) by measuring the slope of the alcohol output, which progresses in a standard fashion when the alcohol is on the breath coming from the lungs.

But I'm sure you knew all of this already from your extensive training and experience, right? Because you have that. Otherwise you'd just be some guy who read some stuff online.

I've been cross examined about these issues by some of the most skilled DWI litigating attorneys in my state. Their defendants got convicted.

Remember how we talked about how people were noticing how you refuse to admit when you're corrected by people with more knowledge and experience in an area than you? That's where you're at now.

Unless you have been failing to mention your specific expertise in this area despite me asking you several times now.

Finding studies that are 20-30 years old are not going to be relevant because the technology and procedures have developed significantly since then in response to all of the issues you're bringing up.

So if you have anything current which shows real issues which affect the validity of breath testing, I'd love to see it. But you don't.

[–]noteven0s -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Once again, and before you argue too much about someone arguing too much:

And FWIW, a properly conducted breath test is every bit as accurate as a properly conducted blood test.

Is false. If you don't believe it, I suspect you don't know math or how the breath test works.

As to specific expertise? I claim none. I was a cop a long time ago and was trained by the guy who created the FSTs. It was a week long course where the whole topic was covered in detail as he was still trying to get his studies standardized. I think it was the Southern California Research Institute and we're talking about the mid 80s. In part, because of that training, I made many arrests and testified as an expert many times. (As you know, being an "expert" does not mean real expertise in such matters.) I completely admit, I have no training and experience in over 30 years.

However, because of my background, I've always been interested and kept up on the literature. Both from the standpoint of litigation on the matter and just as general interest. I'm not pulling any of what I wrote out of my ass or just from looking things up today.

But, the bottom line is, the breath and blood tests for blood alcohol are not equivalent. They are not "every bit as accurate" as each other. You overstated the case. If you have a study or anyone else other than you that claims differently, I'd love to see it. But, you don't. (See, I think the comma belongs there. I'm not sure.)

[–]Citicop 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I completely admit, I have no training and experience in over 30 years.

Well then- as long as everything is exactly the same as it was then, your opinions are meaningful about this topic.

I'm not asking again you for an example of a single instance which could occur in the field which would interfere with a breath test on a modern instrument when properly given. You have no provided one, and I have no doubt you would continue to fail to do so.

I want to apologize. This discussion was my fault. It should not have happened. I had resolved to no longer respond to your bait, but when you chose this topic I broke my own rule. I will endeavor to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

[–]noteven0s -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I understand you should just shut up when you are wrong.

Fair enough.

It seemed you didn't do that.


By the way:

And FWIW, a properly conducted breath test is every bit as accurate as a properly conducted blood test.

Is not correct. Live it. Learn it. Love it.

Edit:

I think you should take a statistics class. It will help when the question comes up.

[–]Citicop 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I understand you should just shut up when you are wrong.

You do not now, nor have you ever demonstrated any understanding of that.

I'm happy that you'll leave this conversation feeling that you've somehow "won."

You haven't, but I'm glad you feel that way.

[–]demyst 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

You're such a fantastic troll. Seriously, bravo. I wish I had the time and willingness to be wrong as often as you do.

I especially enjoyed the wiki-ish links!

[–]Zapopa_Bot 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]demyst 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Every inch of my bookmark bar is now covered with this link.