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Trolls are on notice. (self.Bitcoin)

MineForeman[M] が 投稿 - stickied post

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[–]hairytoad 60ポイント61ポイント  (67子コメント)

Rule Number 1: If you say anything negative about the mod teams income source, Blockstream, you are a troll.

[–]StarMaged[M] -51ポイント-50ポイント  (44子コメント)

If you say it like that, you probably are a troll.

Posts like this only serve to divide and distract the community, not to do anything constructive. Consider this your warning.

[–]pizzaface18 24ポイント25ポイント  (4子コメント)

What happens when you think he's being a troll, but he's getting crazy upvotes anyway? Do you go against the community and delete his comment anyway?

[–]eragmus -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

When something is obviously trolling, I'd advocate just treating it as such, regardless of votes. Votes should have no bearing, IMO. The only criteria should be: "Does this promote a good discussion? Or does this serve to divide and conquer, and be inflammatory? Is there evidence presented? Is it a thoughtful comment?"

[–]societal_scourge -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Buttcoiners do that all the time.

[–]doctorwhony 24ポイント25ポイント  (10子コメント)

I may be wrong since I'm new here but I think he's saying it from experience not trolling. I've heard other reddit users had similar experiences. You, StarMaged, need to be less judgmental of users of reddit. You shouldn't be warning users for expressing an opinion especially without further discussion as to the circumstances and history.

[–]eragmus -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

cc: u/starmaged

And this is why, a rule should be made about: not making accusations without producing evidence. In this example, hairytoad could get get a warning and be asked for clarification.

u/doctorwhony, can you clarify what you're saying about "saying it from experience not trolling"? He specifically said "mod teams income source, Blockstream" -- this is purely obvious trolling. There's no "experience" that could inform such a statement.

[–]doctorwhony 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

He may be referring to theymos? I don't know theymos or his income source but I remember reading about other users saying the same thing when they criticize Blockstream, not all of them on reddit.

In any case, this is a dangerous attitude for mods to take. Consider NSA spying on US citizens and other spying agencies in other countries spying on their citizens. That type of behavior by those governments puts a chilling effect on free speech and the citizens of those countries become afraid and watch what they say. The same type of effect happens on /r/Bitcoin when mods censor and warn users for expressing their opinions.

[–]thefallinghologram -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Really? You're going to bring up the NSA and surveillance as a justification for allowing trolls to run rampant everywhere saying whatever they want? You conveniently left out the fact that the NSA, CIA, DOD, and many others, PAY TROLLS TO TROLL. There is a handbook decades old on derailing a topic of conversation on a forum, given to these people.

That is a complete cop-out bullshit argument, ignoring half the facts.

[–]Peter__R 26ポイント27ポイント  (12子コメント)

you probably are a troll

Ad hominem. Reported.

[–]hairytoad 11ポイント12ポイント  (13子コメント)

How's this? It is my belief that the mods here and on bitcoin IRC are being paid by Blockstream's funders. I formed this belief by observing the pattern that Blockstream is constantly supported and endorsed and negative comments are removed and derided far more frequently than comments about other companies.

It is my assertion that we should be cautious of the intentions of ANY software company that influences bitcoin development. It is my assertion that removing negative comments about a company is NOT in the spirit of the openness of bitcoin.

Intentions matter just as much as code. Denying this just makes this place a joke. It is very possible that the people funding blockstream want to weaken bitcoin and implement their own self-serving plans in the long run. Denying that as a possibility is just not honest.

[–]StarMaged -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I formed this belief by observing the pattern that Blockstream is constantly supported and endorsed and negative comments are removed and derided far more frequently than comments about other companies.

Huh? How'd you come to form that impression? It is quite literally an insult to call someone a Blockstream employee, that's how negative the community is towards them. That needs to stop in general, since it should never be an insult to be working for any company in this subreddit, but that's besides the point.

It is my assertion that we should be cautious of the intentions of ANY software company that influences bitcoin development.

Agreed. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts about that in a new post. You could probably mention how private sidechains like Liquid increase the barrier of entry for other exchanges, legal and illegal ones alike. You could liken it to the idea and importance of Network Neutrality. (hopefully you can already tell how unhappy I am about Liquid)

It is my assertion that removing negative comments about a company is NOT in the spirit of the openness of bitcoin.

And my assertion is that if a company name becomes an insult, that's gone too far. Ad hominem attacks are not okay just because it involves a software company that you don't like.

Intentions matter just as much as code. Denying this just makes this place a joke. It is very possible that the people funding blockstream want to weaken bitcoin and implement their own self-serving plans in the long run.

Again, I'd appreciate a post about that, especially in light of Liquid being announced.

One final note: posts like your reply are completely acceptable. You back up your assertion with reason, and then explain why. Had you been banned and sent this to modmail as an appeal, I would have accepted it and unbanned you immediately.

[–]eragmus -2ポイント-1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Much better. Now people can have an actual discussion about it, instead of having emotion-inciting words leading to 2 sides battling off with one another.

In terms of my response to it...

belief that the mods here and on bitcoin IRC are being paid by Blockstream's funders.

I formed this belief by observing the pattern that Blockstream is constantly supported and endorsed and negative comments are removed and derided far more frequently than comments about other companies.

Ever consider this belief is justified by evidence that is a direct result of such beliefs twisting peoples' minds and encouraging troll posts? Because that's a distinct possibility. It's also circular logic. I think requirements for evidence should be much more exacting than mere observation of something like that. Especially, when the claim is so potentially slanderous ("mods are being paid by Blockstream's funders").

Agree with the rest of your post, in theory. Vigilance is good, but trolling a company for no good reason (i.e. without evidence) is more defined as 'attacking', rather than being vigilant.

[–]hairytoad 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think requirements for evidence should be much more exacting than mere observation

This is a good way to protect them. We both know they have to slip up for that and that could happen years after damage has been done. Until then, we can only judge by behaviors and observation.

[–]adam3usAdam Back - Bitcoin Expert -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

See the reason I'd say there is some rentabot upvoting and downvoting goin on is for example /u/eragmus above who makes a balanced reasoned commentary gets -ve votes and /u/hairytoad who posts something inflammatory and untrue for personal amusement gets +57 instantly. Actually now it is +15 so maybe insta bot upvote, then slow human downvote.

Now up/down voting is cool etc but it should be one vote per user and no bots.

[–]BashCo -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you have any ideas on how we can address bandwagon voting, I'm all ears. That behavior is more damaging than trolls in my opinion, and is mob censorship whether those responsible choose to acknowledge it or not.

[–]adam3usAdam Back - Bitcoin Expert -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah I am not sure. Disable voting?

[–]BashCo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If only that were possible we could at least consider it. Reddit does have an option to hide votes for up to 24 hours but I don't know if that will help. The level of tribalism is ridiculous.

[–]adam3usAdam Back - Bitcoin Expert -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Would hiding votes avoid collapsing (with [+] marker) massively downvoted articles for 24hrs? That might be useful as reddit is mostly scrolling by - after 24hrs a thread is no longer so interesting.

[–]BashCo -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not exactly sure. If you want to read opposing views which have been censored by downvoters, you can change your preferences.

don't show me comments with a score less than [ ] (leave blank to show all comments)

Maybe we should raise awareness about that option.

[–]adam3usAdam Back - Bitcoin Expert -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

FWIW /u/hairytoad's claim is completely untrue. We could equally ask which bot service he paid to get +57 on his troll post.

[–]hairytoad 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have the mods ask everyone in a sticky post who upvoted it.

[–]aquentin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of his claim is true such as core devs employeed by blockstream censor discussion in the irc channel of #bitcoin.

Blockstream has hired many core developers who have huge connections and are moderators of most irc channels. Though there may be no money changing hands, the concentration of so much "authority" within one hierarchical and centralised entity does have an effect and when this is coupled with the censorship here at /r/bitcoin (which may be simply because of an affinity of the moderators here with blockstream employees or perhaps completely unrelated) it places blockstream in a huge position of power to such an extent that if this censorship continues it can be said that bitcoin is no longer decentralised, but controlled by you.

[–]randy-lawnmole -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is no PROOF of this claim. There is some apparent correlation, however this could merely be an extension of bias towards CORE dev over XT dev. Blockstream should not be found guilty on circumstantial evidence.

Edit for clarity, All mods should openly declare payments or ties with any companies in the space. ( I believe BashCo did this changetip? and should be applauded)