上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 428

[–]inopia 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

we would like to point out that disagreeing with someone is not trolling provided you do it in a civilised manner and provided that it is not all you come to /r/Bitcoin to do

So what if I just happen to disagree with a lot of what is being posted here? Does that mean I won't be allowed to post here anymore? How would you be able to tell the difference?

[–]randy-lawnmole 112ポイント113ポイント x2 (31子コメント)

The fallout from this one rule is the cause of the majority of your problems.

Promotion of client software which attempts to alter the Bitcoin protocol without overwhelming consensus is not permitted.

what does it even mean? The fact that mods arrogantly consider the community incapable of discussing and coming to it's own conclusions on exactly how an open source protocol should develop is insulting.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

[–]rglfnt 55ポイント56ポイント  (22子コメント)

and how can any new concept ever achieve "overwhelming consensus" if it can not be discussed?

[–]happyscrappy 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does it really mean anything more than the other 6 things listed?

They've outlawed enough things they can basically ban any post they don't agree with.

[–]Zarathustra_III 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is unbelievable what's going on here, but it is the reality! How is it possible that the mods cannot realise what they are doing?

[–]saddit42 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

A question was asking myself for almost my whole life: how can people be that hypocritical and dishonest to themselves..? So blind of their own actions and subjective in their believes.

I came to the conclusion that this is a very very common skill a long time ago.

[–]randy-lawnmole 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why thank you, kind guilder.

[–]tothemoonsands 44ポイント45ポイント  (65子コメント)

Can a mod please provide formal definitions and examples (specific to Bitcoin) for the following?

*Stonewalling *Strawman *Ad hominem *Lewd behavior *Sidetracking

It is of the upmost importance that these rules (or any rule changes) be widely known. Any bit of confusion, especially in a global community where languages/cultures vary, can turn toxic if users are banned without understanding why.

[–]doctorwhony 14ポイント15ポイント  (14子コメント)

Also, as I tried to ask in another post, can you please provide topics that the mods censor, like discussing Bitcoin XT, and when the mods do censor can you make it a rule that a post has been censored and the reason and the option for the reader to click on the post to get the full text of the censored post.

[–]shortbitcoin 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

I figure my neck is going to go on the chopping block first; I probably already would have been decapitated except I haven't been posting lately.

I suppose when they get me it will be under the "sidetracking" loophole. I can be as courteous and on-topic as I possibly could be, but if have it out for me, they'll say "Hey, stop sidetracking the discussion."

The way I see it, if this place has their panties in a bunch so much as to ban me, then I've won.

[–]blackmarble 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Take my upvote and choke on it.

[–]frankenmint 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Or we could simply remove your singled out comment and everyone would go about their day.

[–]Noosterdam 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Except those who have already replied to it, and the entire subthread that may have followed, which may well make no sense (hence be a bunch of wasted comments) without the original comment to contextualize it.

[–]frankenmint -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

ah, but would that mass confusion lead to his temp-ban/perma-ban/whatever-ban? I'm asserting that it would not.

[–]blackmarble 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It does more to harm the discussion the the original "offending" comment.

[–]muyuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The way I see it, if this place has their panties in a bunch so much as to ban me, then I've won.

They way I see it, if you believe you have won and disappear, everybody (that matters) is happy and we all won. Ain't it grand when people can agree to something?

[–]thefallinghologram 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well I'm not a mod here, so not the answer you're looking for. But I'll give it a stab.

I've tried to discuss multiple times Lightning Network, how it functions, why there is only a SINGLE trade off with the main chain as far as security (the fact that if you aren't watching the block chain someone can fraudently close a channel). I've been met more times than I can count with "LN isn't bitcoin" with no supporting evidence. This is infuriating, and in the majority of the cases, the idiots I've talked with didn't even understand what LN is and just echoing others opinions.

Strawman: I've multiple times brought up LN, and immediately been attacked as having said 1 MB is where the block limit should stay. I do not believe that, have never posted that on a single account I have. If I had half the conversations I've had like this in a bar, I would have knocked someone out.

*Sidetracking- People constantly attacking LN, sidechains, a scaling proposal, and when receiving answers simply pivoting to another attack, instead of conceding they were wrong or misunderstood something. I've had conversations that played out like this cycling between the same three attacks a dozen times.

This type of behavior is not conducive to a conversation or dialogue, is not educated, and frankly does not belong in a place where the sole reason for its existence is to contribute and participate in dialogue.

[–]Noosterdam 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are plenty of bad debating tactics on both sides. Perfect debaters are an extremely rare commodity. Even assuming it's a good idea to hold people to perfect debating standards, a major problem arises if those on one side get deleted/banned disproportionately.

[–]doctorwhony 51ポイント52ポイント  (39子コメント)

Disagreeing is hard, if not impossible to do, when the mods delete post they disagree with or when the mods delete posts in order to advance the mods agenda.

Edited to add: I object to you using the term "bitcoiners" as if /r/Bitcoin represents Bitcoin or that you speak for bitcoin users. /r/Bitcoin is just a forum (not an open honest forum but just a forum) where people might come to discuss things related to bitcoin. /r/Bitcoin has no authority whatsoever. Please don't pretend /r/Bitcoin, just as any other reddit forum, is anything more than that.

[–][削除されました]  (10子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]statoshi 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

    It turns out that community-driven moderation works after all!

    [–]cryptonaut420 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    This is what i find funny. The whole deal with reddit is that its user submitted links and content which you can self moderate via upvotes and downvotes. It wouldnt be reddit without the voting mechanism. Yet there always seems to be a struggle between moderators and users because apparantly we are too stupid to do basic self moderating, or large amounts of upvotes or downvotes can only mean vote brigading (especially when its for a different opinion of mine), etc... I dont really know where im going with this lol, but its like why use reddit at all if you think the voting system is pure shit and your always fighting against it? Especially bad in this sub but iv seen similar behavioir in a lot of subs.

    [–]Bitcoin_Error_Log 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Good luck, you will either drive everyone away, drive yourselves insane, or give up.

    [–]hairytoad 65ポイント66ポイント  (67子コメント)

    Rule Number 1: If you say anything negative about the mod teams income source, Blockstream, you are a troll.

    [–]pizzaface18 22ポイント23ポイント  (8子コメント)

    After reading the exchanges in this thread, the mods might have better luck taking a few months off and let the community handle it.

    Downward spiral.

    EDIT: annnd I'm banned. LOL.

    [–]statoshi 30ポイント31ポイント  (20子コメント)

    I find it fascinating that the /r/bitcoin mods don't seem to support a key concept of Reddit (and Bitcoin) itself - fostering a free market. Community self-moderation is a critical aspect of Reddit - if you believe that the market works, then high quality content will rise to the top while low quality content such as trolling will fall to the bottom.

    Perhaps it's because the mods desire to "make /r/Bitcoin a safe and pleasant place" - free markets can be chaotic and unpleasant. But their goal is not safety, it is progress.

    [–]belcher_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Sure, if you want to end up like /r/adviceanimals or /r/twoxchromosomes, I'd prefer something more like /r/askscience.

    [–]chrico031 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Why would self-proclaimed Libertarians support something as crazy as a Free Market?

    /s

    [–]110101002 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    fostering a free market. Community self-moderation is a critical aspect of Reddit - if you believe that the market works, then high quality content will rise to the top while low quality content such as trolling will fall to the bottom.

    The great thing about Bitcoin is you need millions of dollars in mining equipment to take it over, and you get paid to mine.

    On /r/bitcoin you don't get paid to comment, you don't get paid to upvote, but the rewards for promoting an altcoin on this subreddit are huge, and it only costs a bit of time (and maybe money) to create a bunch of shill accounts to promote an altcoin. This means the best content wont always rise to the top, the content that either a malicious person, or another subreddit wants to rise to the top will.

    [–]statoshi 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Indeed, Reddit has a number of flaws around incentives and vote manipulation. I doubt those will be solved by stricter moderation; I'm holding out for http://datt.co/

    [–]eragmus -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Like u/belcher_ said, do we want to aspire for Reddit to be respected and have quality content? Or, do we want to continue with status quo where anyone of note describes Reddit in a derogatory belittling manner? There is too much trolling these days; there needs to be stricter guidelines to help guide people into good behavior, or else there is no reason for the trolling to decline. Remember, if everything is good, then the new policies have no effect. If things are bad, then it won't just be about removing trolling posts, but about temp/perm banning, etc. to address the root of the problem (certain minority of troll users that lack social etiquette, or have some mental illness like 'paranoia').

    [–]statoshi 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It sounds like you're upset that Reddit has a PR problem; I don't think you're going to be able to fix the fundamental issues that cause some people to dislike Reddit.

    I honestly don't see the point in banning anyone when it takes 20 seconds to create a new Reddit account. I see a similar problem with regard to mods removing posts; mods are outnumbered by users at a thousands to one ratio. It seems like it's more effective to let the users police each other.

    [–]eragmus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    http://i.imgur.com/cXEeB17.gif , seriously.

    Also, it may take 20 sec to create a new account, but then you lose all user history. Plus, mods can be severe on new accounts (since it's legit suspicious for a new user to be posting opinionatedly about bitcoin) by default, as they already are. It may thus be effective :).

    Also, when posts are removed, it serves to remove misinformation. We had an example in this thread where a user had a legit concern that Blockstream has been "known" to be controversial, since "others have said so". He actually thought so, due to hearing it! That's the effect of misinformation, and not taking a hard line on accusations without evidence.

    Finally, for posts that are removed, a user must be posting the post. If the user has a history, then you can target the root (the user) directly, right? If it's a new user, then back to my first argument 2 paragraphs earlier (just be strict with new users, and let automod filter most spam out).

    [–]muyuu -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    New users start with low karma and are throttled in various ways, and if they drop below zero they are even more throttled. Also, reddit admins take it into account for shadow bans that a user is misbehaving with a seemingly new account. At the end of the day, Reddits underhanded tactics ARE effective, and can be very discouraging.

    Like Theymos said, he knows how moderation affects people. He's right, it does, and he knows how. He has the experience and the drive to hound trolls out. All in all it's working a treat, despite of the intermittent drama and noise.

    [–]biznizza -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Key concepts?

    To reddit:

    I view reddit as a tool. With the exception of the past few months, the tool has evolved to serve the purpose of moving the best posts to the top. But now some other group of people think they might be able to use it more as a discussion/forum than a news aggregator. Is this the intended use of the tool? Only tangentially. But is it really against some reddit key concept to moderate such a forum? I'm not so sure.

    To Bitcoin:

    I prefer not to make it political. Rocks dont have emotions, and bitcoin doesn't care about freedom. The "freedom" and "free market" are design aspects to help success, but I don't think they are core concepts of bitcoin. Bitcoin certainly represents these concepts to people, but then again hurricanes represent "god" to some.

    [–]statoshi 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Yes, Reddit is a tool that takes a market-based approach to sorting content. It doesn't care if the content is a news post or an opinion post.

    What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust, allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party.

    Sounds like the description of a free market to me...

    [–]biznizza 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    your quote is a technical description. a free market is very different in scope, it is much more about law and duty(tax) and people than the technical description of a secure accounting system. it is a technical solution, it is not a political one.

    [–]rydan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Or maybe the market doesn't actually work.

    [–]BeastmodeBisky 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Can we get some examples of trolling perhaps? There's always been accusations that this sub is 'full of trolls', but in my experience often when people are asked to point to some of the posts they consider trolling they're just dissenting opinions.

    So some real examples of trolling behavior could be helpful so we can get a clear view on what exactly is not allowed here.

    [–]biznizza 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I don't know how to feel about the guys using "BIT_C-oin" and such.

    I mean I get the joke, but it's somewhat equivalent to calling someone a "poopy head."

    Like the people who say "lib-tard" and "Barack Osama," it's super lame but... is it bannable?

    And what if someone makes an honest mistake and says "bit-coin" out of lack of knowledge?

    I also think we can begin to differentiate between troll posts and dissenting opinions. Your typical troll post DOES contain a dissenting opinion most of the time, but certain other factors might give them away. For example, they simply post a similar(or exact) post on multiple comments and posts without reading any responses. Even if someone does try to reason and and create a dialogue, they're either shat-upon or ignored by trolls. Their goal is not to ask questions, but to be assholes.

    Recently, some guy was in a thread simply throwing out FUD to multiple comments. Stuff like "wasn't VanityGen a scam?" There was no research, no response, and now that's just left up there despite it being wrong... as if a logical, thinking user had read it somewhere.

    Some people's comment history shows that they are just assholes looking for stuff they don't like. Definitely fuck those guys.

    [–]BashCo 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Writing "bit-coin" on accident isn't going to get anyone banned. It's usually pretty easy to tell if someone is continuously drilling "bit-coin" to try and evoke a negative reaction. If there's been a mistake or misunderstanding, just message the mods.

    For example, they simply post a similar(or exact) post on multiple comments and posts without reading any responses. Even if someone does try to reason and and create a dialogue, they're either shat-upon or ignored by trolls. Their goal is not to ask questions, but to be assholes.

    This would be a typical example of derailing or sidetracking. If somebody's habitually responding without context just to be antagonistic, their odds of being banned will increase somewhat. The best approach with those people is to not respond and report them to the mods, preferably via mod mail as opposed to the report button.

    [–]biznizza 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Man, the next few days/weeks will be interesting...

    [–]eragmus 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'd urge you to make sure the rules are not too vague or widely-applicable. We need a few quality rules, that are very clearly defined. It's not reasonable to expect everyone to have 10/10 debating skills.

    I'd also like to suggest another trolling rule: * Making accusations without evidence *. Please encourage honest discussion rather than speculation. And yes, I mean things like:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ommzh/trolls_are_on_notice/cvyqawq

    I think it's fair. If someone wants to show evidence (like that mods are paid off), then be my guest. If not, then best to keep shut and not be inflammatory for no reason.

    Also, please clarify exactly what is meant by ad hominem. It can be interpreted differently by different people.

    [–]BaurusdB 26ポイント27ポイント  (18子コメント)

    Top-down enforcement in a sub about Bitcoin. The irony. There's even ancap references in the sidebar. Lol.

    [–]rglfnt 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

    all ancap's are equal, but some ancap's are more equal than others.

    [–]blackmarble 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    First they came for the big-blockers, and I said nothing because I was not a big-blocker. Then they came for the trolls and I said nothing because I was not a troll...

    [–]eragmus 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Who said bitcoiners are ancaps? Bitcoin's origins were in the cypherpunk mailing list (by implication, Satoshi = a cypherpunk), and it was initially developed mostly by cypherpunks (Hal Finney, the first bitcoiner and most famous of all, was a cypherpunk). Ancaps arrived on the scene later.

    Definition of cypherpunk:

    Activist advocating widespread use of strong cryptography [encryption] as a route to social and political change. Originally communicating through the Cypherpunks electronic mailing list, informal groups aimed to achieve privacy and security through proactive use of cryptography

    [–]statoshi 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    There was plenty of overlap between Cypherpunks and Anarchists.

    Note that Timothy C. May was a founding member of the Cypherpunks Mailing List. He authored The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto

    Ancaps were one of the earliest groups to adopt cryptocurrency because they saw value in freedom from state monopoly on currency.

    [–]blazes816 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    People here may find the Manifesto interesting as it talks at length about the need for a Bitcoin-like system, as well as all the things that would enable (free global trade, smart contracts, elimination of trusted counter-parties, etc).

    Particularly interesting is chapter 12, search for: "12. Digital Cash and Net Commerce"

    [–]mmeijeri 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    There's nothing wrong with private societies with private rules from an ancap perspective. You can always start your own subreddit, as some have. With dismal results so far, but if people don't want you in their club and don't want to join yours, then that's your problem.

    [–]prezTrump 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, probably they should take the hint that their ideas regarding community moderation seem to fail with astonishing consistency in the "market".

    [–]muyuu 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

    What does ancap have to do with this sub moderation?

    In pure ancap fashion there are several forums with several moderation approaches and you are free to use whichever you prefer.

    [–]rglfnt 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

    theymos claims he is one himself.

    how he wraps that around censorship, i have yet to understand.

    [–]belcher_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yep, I would like to see several bitcoin communities where people can choose between them by leaving one community and joining another.

    [–]juxtapozz 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

    what about fruitbatting? or scare-crowing? you need to be more specific.

    [–]blackmarble 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    What happened to the weekly scaling threads? Are we now allowed to post new submissions about blocksize increase proposals?

    [–]bitsko 12ポイント13ポイント  (35子コメント)

    You should not allow moderators to engage in the discussion. The incentive to abuse the powers is too great when they relate to types of argumentation like sidetracking.

    [–]blackmarble 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They will just get unpopular sock puppets if this is the case.

    [–]dem_eggs 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's really trivial to register a second account so this rule would be completely toothless.

    [–]_The-Big-Giant-Head_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I agree with having issues with trolls in this subs but your definition is extremely vague and open to personal interpretation. You need to be more specific what you think is trolling and provide examples. (dogecoin wiki provided in a comment below is a good example).

    Further more, banning someone just because a comment or a post might be seen as trolling by a MOD is just heavy handed. You can initially just remove the offending comment/post and notify OP. If OP doesn't take notice and does it again, he/she deserves the ban.

    [–]DeftNerd 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I used to view /r/bitcoin as a place to discuss bitcoin and occasionally ask questions or post about projects I'm working on.

    Because of all the moderator behavior in the last year, I'm scared to participate in discussion because I might upset a moderator and get banned. Then I would be unable to post about new services that I build.

    The moderators have not censored me. The moderators have scared me into censoring myself.

    The moderators might look at their statistics and see that they've only banned X number of users, but they're missing the bigger picture. I'm not the only one who is scared to be "kicked out of the club" so we're sitting by in silence and letting the bullies run things.

    I've found other subs to have discussions in. /r/bitcoin is now just a place to scan for bitcoin-related news headlines. I rarely, if ever, even look at the comments anymore.

    [–]doctorwhony 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's exactly what happens in a surveillance society and why I brought up the NSA in a previous comment to illustrate that point.

    [–]Jay_Zaq 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I fear this will increase the blatant censorship of this subreddit, hoping to be proven wrong.

    [–]Voluntaryists_dude 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is old stuff. You take down Theymos authoritarian stickied post, and put this up. Censorship opaques truth.

    Some of the trolling is by the bullies who support the mods.

    I've wondered if downvotes can be easily manipulated. I've seen a comments have lots of upvotes, then lots of downvotes.

    It'd be nice if when mods deleted a post, they would put a link to it, that would hold them accountable. But never believe you're getting the truth on this sub.

    [–]doctorwhony 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It'd be nice if when mods deleted a post, they would put a link to it, that would hold them accountable. But never believe you're getting the truth on this sub.

    Exactly. As it is now the attitude is like just trust us mods. No justification, no accountability.

    [–]Guy_Tell 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    When I invite someone in my house, there are some basic rules he must respect. If he starts shitting in my living-room and wiping his ass on my curtains, I will banish him.

    This is a kindly reminder that subreddits are privately owned forums, and posting on r/bitcoin is not a fundamental human right.

    [–]NotHyplon 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    • Stonewalling

    Could someone clairfy this based on reddit? I mean i asked someone ( a very active poster) a question on here a while back and not got an answer. Is that stonewalling? Because the guy could just be busy or missed my post?

    Would this be aimed at people who say "Bitcoin ate my baby" then when asked for proof they had bitcoin or a baby go silent?

    Ad hominem

    So i can post in purse threads without someone accusing me of a heinous crime (completely unrelated to bitcoin or reality)and having it left there by the mods despite being reported twice? Cool.

    [–]prezTrump 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It will be interesting to see how this approach works out. I expect drama, but since there's plenty already it's maybe the right time to go for this.

    [–]muyuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Judging by the whining and moaning from precisely the drama queens we want to lose, who incidentally want to keep their trolling rights, we are solidly in the right path.

    [–]dskloet 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The only way to stop trolls is to stop feeding the trolls.

    [–]Lethalgeek 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Another fine example of how hypocritical this community is.

    [–]peoplma 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I actually support the bitcoin mods in this decision, /r/bitcoin has been overrun by trolls for far too long. My main concern is that if you guys have any hope of being able to enforce the new no trolling rule in an unbiased manner, you will need a clear and thorough definition of trolling. Something you can refer to and users can refer to so that they can be sure they aren't in violation of the rule.

    Your current definition:

    No Trolling - this may include and not be limited to;- * Stonewalling * Strawman * Ad hominem * Lewd behavior * Sidetracking Discussion not conducive to civil discourse will not be tolerated here. Go elsewhere.

    is extremely subjective. "May include but not limited to" is just awful wording that basically says you reserve the right to ban anyone for anything at any time. Might I suggest something like /r/dogecoin/wiki/trolling ?

    [–]eragmus 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    100% agree, thanks for posting u/peoplma!! I'm not a fan at all of the current definition. Those words are quite vague, and the preface about "may include and not limited to" is abrasive. It does not signal a friendly atmosphere. It will only give ammunition to people to claim censorship, which of course is not the intention.

    Focus on crystal clear language, so that misinterpretation is impossible.

    cc: u/bashco

    [–]BashCo -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Good feedback, thanks. The wiki page is seriously worth considering. Would you mind if we borrow from that page as this policy evolves?

    [–]peoplma 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not at all, please do :)

    [–]veintiuno 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I like the idea of a defined policy. Would you be willing to cherry pick or invent some examples of the specific trolling behaviors for additional clarity?
    EDIT - purpose of examples could also be precedent; a la English common law.

    [–]MineForeman[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That is not a bad idea but no one has been banned yet under the new policy. We wanted to get this out there so that no one would feel like they had been trapped.

    I will start collection posts of bad posts right now (removing the user, we don't want them harassed).

    [–]tomyumnuts 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Fuck it. I'm outta here for good. I don't want a safe space. I can deal with trolls by myself.

    I don't need the mods to censor anything. Have fun with your hugbox.

    [–]frankenmint 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Look you guys, Its working :)

    [–]tomyumnuts 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Well if you look in my history you would notice that I am 99% lurker. The community here is going to shit since the banning started. Im sure more banns will fix this.

    [–]nakedbitcoins 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is a start. Thanks.

    [–]TotesMessenger 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

    If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

    [–]StarMaged[M] -8ポイント-7ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Note: these are official cross-posts, so be sure to check out the discussion in these places as well.

    [–]bitsko 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Vote brigading? No np link.

    [–]muyuu 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The links are np.

    [–]bitsko 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    So I see. Still bannable, right?

     [–]110101002XT is a scamcoin -3 points 8 days ago 
    

    Had he applied 'np' would you have kept it up?

     It becomes more ambiguous at that point. Had he done that I would believe he was still attempting to brigade, but I would probably just have given him a warning to stop.
    

    [–]muyuu 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The np is just a guideline. You can of course still earn a shadowban if you go out brigading.

    [–]belcher_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Good move.

    Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism

    If something like this doesn't happen, this sub will probably be overrun by low-effort, low-content, trolling and spamming. It's impossible for an internet community that gets large to avoid this without good moderation. Perhaps this community more than others should be able to see the limits of downvote democracy, like we see the limits of political democracy.

    Long term I would like to see several well-moderated bitcoin communities. People can choose between mods by leaving one community and joining another. Like citizens choosing between countries run by philosopher kings, except migration is much much easier.

    Look at some other badly-moderated subreddits like /r/funny or /r/adviceanimals. You'll find the opposite of no-moderation isn't freedom or academia, it's 4chan and 9gag. (Who incidentally DO have mechanisms to stop spammers) We should aim to be something like /r/askscience

    [–]Noosterdam 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Content, participation, and quality of discussion seem to have taken a nosedive since the sub started deleting entire front page threads that were heavily upvoted and commented. It doesn't take many instances of these entire-thread deletions before posters (regardless of debate side) who invest a lot of time to make quality comments start wondering why they even bother. It should be no surprise that those who remain tend to be the posters who don't put time and thought into their posts, instead just sniping with the same old talking points. They are hit least hard by the changes.

    Funny thing about the swamp of over-moderation: once you're in it, the solution always feels like it is to dive deeper in.

    [–]belcher_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Those heavily upvoted threads you refer to were all about advocating for BitcoinXT. Including lies like the client being faster, how it would make the price rise and how it wouldn't destroy what makes bitcoin valuable.

    Frankly I don't give a damn about up/downvotes. The mob would listen to any charismatic leader and vote for dumb stuff. If I believed in mere voting like that I'd use central bank money. Though at least democratic government checks you cant vote 1000 times as with reddit vote bots.

    I respectfully suggest you contribute to another bitcoin community. Competition between moderators is always good. I'm doing this myself with smaller niche bitcoin communities. As the ecosystem grows we cant all crowd into only one subreddit.

    [–]eragmus -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You're making this argument, but being someone who invested time in the thread you're alluding to (peter__r's thread), I can say I felt no disheartenment over the thread being removed. I've posted just the same pre- and post- removal.

    In fact, what you are missing is the thread was removed because it suffered heavy, blatant vote brigading. In such a situation, with one half of debate being effectively censored and buried, it's not possible to have healthy debate. You may have been satisfied since you support the XT side, but those who were on the other side were not satisfied at all. The thread was effectively a big PR propaganda machine, so I can see why mods did not care to leave it up (and hence mislead users). It was also inflammatory and targeted at developers, which is not particularly productive.

    [–]Noosterdam 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I guess that may have been true for the thread I had in mind, and that was unfortunate. Though I do find it odd (not wrong, but odd) to castigate vote brigaders (meaning the voters, often not the poster, who had may have had no such intentions) when it's clearly direct blowback in response to censorship. Still I seem to recall several threads getting deleted like that.

    The more hard-hitting point is perhaps that talking about controversial subjects is being allowed if you're on the "right" side of the debate. If something is controversial, that seems like one of the most productive things to discuss (for the sake of both sides; who wants the other sides' arguments to be allowed to float around all over the rest of the Internet, polluting minds, while going completely unchallenged here?)

    [–]muyuu -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The sub is currently at its best ever since the XT drama escalated.

    The least a bunch of conflictive individuals poo "content" over here, the better it is. There's already more than enough content, so the focus should be on quality.

    [–]mors_mortis 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

    How about you take a community vote on the matter, instead of forcing your will upon us?

    [–]transdimensionalsnug 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And how would they ensure that no one person votes twice? I can't recall a time that this sub-reddit was ever run like a democracy, so I don't see a reason it should start without a system that ensures that one person equals one vote.

    [–]ToasterFriendly 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I vote for banning trolls.

    [–]SoCo_cpp -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    'Like/share to ban trolls, keep scrolling to let trolls fester into cancer.' hue

    [–]Noosterdam 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

    If only there were a way to vote on posts, or even comments, and maybe have them be displayed more or less prominently based on that.

    EDIT: The solution isn't to ban the potentially questionable content, but to create an environment where intelligent posters moderate (through votes) for you. In particular, activist moderation tends to drive away some of the most intelligent posters, since they know the thread they are posting in could be deleted any time (even the top post on the front page, with over 100 comments) and they are less likely to be the type who enjoy writing cursory comments. Their motivation to write carefully crafted posts, especially on important controversies where the "mod discretion" clause may move against them, is severely undercut when mods feel like they have sweeping "including but not limited to"-type powers.

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]sybil28294 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

        I for 631 fully support this proposal! FORGET MODERATION. VOTING FOREVER!

        [–]sibyl93821 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Seconded!

        The people must be heard! DOWN WITH EVIL MODS.

        [–]muyuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is satire... right?

        [–]DakotaChiliBeans 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Oh my, here we go....

        [–]muyuu 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You can see how different is the "community" within a few hours :-D

        We are much better off without the participation of some of you, the ones that only ever appear in conflictive threads like this. You know who you are, now abide to the rules because no, your antics won't be permanently allowed no matter how much you cry.

        [–]chealsonne 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is great, I totally agree. There is alot of trolling here, mostly from buttcoiners. regardless of what side of the block size debate you are on, we can agree that trolls love to post here. sometimes their trolling is very sublte, sometimes its very blatant but i think its worth it to keep banning these types, both subtle and obvious. make them keep making new accounts, its fine.

        [–]bitburnt2 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        People who use the term "bagholder" its insulting and obviously trolling.

        [–]OldManToza -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Do you even know what “bagholder” means?

        [–]timepad 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Bitcoiners deserve better

        I agree. Bitcoiners deserve a censorship-free forum to discuss pertinent issues of the time. I wish you'd focus on building a community, rather than using your censorship powers to sway policy and public opinion.

        [–]cipher_gnome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        disagreeing with someone is not trolling

        ...

        Bitcoiners are more than capable of telling each other they are wrong

        Ahaha

        [–]SoCo_cpp -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

        The sidetracking rule will be very helpful. The crying of butthurt spammers will be glorious.

        [–]eragmus 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

        What does 'sidetracking' mean, what's an example?

        [–]KKamwah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        No lewd behaviour? But the adult industry will love Bitcoin!

        [–]Prom3th3an 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        "disagreeing with someone is not trolling provided you do it in a civilised manner and provided that it is not all you come to /r/Bitcoin to do."

        So how much do I, as a farther-left Democrat, have to pretend for argument's sake that I agree with you guys on, before I can start giving reasons for my disagreement? I'm not quite clear on the ground rules here.

        [–]dbthegimp 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Can we still crack jokes?

        [–]DakotaChiliBeans 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Bitcoin is not for jokes!@!!!!! you callin bitcoin a joke. Gone with you ! We all serious now, no games. If you don't eat your meat how can you get any pudding. All in all you need to help put another brick in the wall, or else you will be judged before your peers!

        [–]prisonsuit-rabbitman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The echo chambering is worse than the trolls ever were.

        [–]Fakhoury 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

        To be honest, trolls just tell me (and many others) that we are going on the right track, I see this as a measurement of success.

        [–]rydan 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

        The same could be said about Garza's Paycoin. His forums were filled with trolls.

        [–]BlockchainOfFools 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        They were run by them too

        [–]muyuu 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Must have been a massive success, right? :-P

        [–]BlockchainOfFools 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It turns out Gresham's Law applies to trolls, too.

        [–]BeardMilk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The same could be said about Garza's Paycoin.

        * banned for straw-man
        

        [–]Zarathustra_III 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Looking at the votes, the community seems to believe that the mods are the real trolls. How is this possible? Should the mods learn something from this fact, or should they ignore it?

        [–]rydan 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

        When you say no "Lewd behavior" does this mean no more posting NSFW links that accept bitcoin?

        [–]MineForeman[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Not at all (please mark them NSFW though).

        It is more just dropping a string of creative swearwords to either attack someone or just for the hell of it.

        [–]eragmus 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Please clarify that language. I interpreted "lewd" as sexual, too -- in fact the definition is: "crude and offensive in a sexual way".

        [–]MasterCh13f 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

        These people don't know definitions of common English words and they get to write subreddit rules... fantastic.

        [–]eragmus -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Lol... c'mon, let's give them a break. Their heart is in the right place. If we can have a sub with higher quality content, then everyone gains.

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]brighton36 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Finally

          You say that, but were you one of the same people that was up in arms about censorship? Because I'd bet you'll be up in arms about this policy for the same reasons after a couple months of this.

          [–]ThomasGullen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          No Trolling - this may include and not be limited to; Strawman

          Wow, so people can't even leave their true opinions any more?

          [–]Doctoreggtimer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It won't get rid of trolling, it will just get rid of people trying to disagree civilly since they know their posts will just might be deleted and there is no point in putting effort into writing them.

          [–]bitsko 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Is it not argumentative sidetracking of the blocksize debate to call XT an altcoin and ban for it...?

          [–]redhawk989 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I think you would do better to purge out the crazy evangelists along with the "trolls". You know, the Bitcoiners who proudly state that they call up and harass places who refuse to accept Bitcoin.

          [–]BashCo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          We've banned crazy evangelists before. Remember BuffyButtcoinSlayer?

          [–]rydan -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Shouldn't this be sticky? How else are trolls supposed to see this?

          [–]StarMaged 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

          The hell? The modlog doesn't show anyone unstickying this, so I don't know what happened there. This was stickied for a few hours...

          [–]pizzaface18 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

          There's a troll mod!!

          [–]tophernator 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I think there's a built in reddit function where if a stickied post is shitty enough it will still slide down the rankings like a loose bowel movement on fresh porcelain.

          (Am I banned yet?)

          [–]zluckdog 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          For the non-r/bitcoin trolls, there is /r/buttbrigade

          [–]Lejitz -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Spooky!

          [–]karl_burgerstein -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Better late than never!