Vaccine apologists can be convinced to change their positions by showing them graphs of the overwhelming decline of diseases *before* vaccines were developed (response to front page propaganda)

axolotl_peyotl · 9時間前

31 minutes: 11 points, 82% upvoted

(saving for future just cuz)

Meekin33 · 8時間前

I may be incorrect, but aren't mortality rates different from actual contracted cases? I thought mortality was death from the illness. If that's the case, then deaths declining would line up with better medicinal practices, where contraction would likely show the vaccinations in a more correct light. I would fm definitely be willing to look at a graph that shows how these diseases were eradicated before the vaccines, as opposed to the mortality rate of them.

maplebar · 9時間前

It's stupid how pro-vaxxers are all up in arms about public health and safety. Are all of these people suddenly germaphobes? Do we have a mass cultural shift toward hyper-cleanliness? Where is it? Is it absent because maybe people are being told what to believe instead of coming to these ideas on their own? Geez, kind of like when pro-vaxxers assert that anti-vaxxers adopted their position from a perspective of fear as opposed to reason. So ironic.

man_of_liberty · 8時間前

Thank you for posting this. I was thinking the same thing. I also noticed its on top with the Russian missile video. The front page of reddit is almost as bad as tv these days.

pilgrimboy · 9時間前

Actually, showing them these charts doesn't work. I have tried.

winter_sucks_balls · 5時間前

Not trying to skew this debate AT ALL, are you? "apologists" and "propaganda" in the title. Nice job freezing out debate. And you are a mod here?

forestafire · 8時間前

Thank you for this, that thread was fucking bullshit.

maplebar · 9時間前

I actually tried to engage some people on there. What am I, new to the Internet?

nonorat · 5時間前

Your graphs show the decline of deaths from disease, not a decline in incidences of disease. This is to be expected given general improvements in medicine and supportive care.

For example, the invention of the iron lung prevented deaths from polio. But it did nothing at all to prevent people from catching polio in the first place.

This link explains why this presentation of the data is flawed.

sailone · 8時間前

summary of the pro vaccine position: show opponents horrible pictures of infected children. not graphs, or statistics.

SoCo_cpp · 7時間前

I argued that showing these pictures subconsciously trick people into wrongfully thinking that these nearly eradicated disease are more of a risk to people not vaccinated than they are and that vaccine skepticism is a logical reaction to avoiding needless personal risk solely for the benefit of others through herd immunity, since the real personal risk of catching these diseases in a developed country is almost nil. It is a bold move in /r/science, we'll see how it plays out.

FreedomIsYouAndMe · 9時間前

Vaccine apologists, lol. So true BTW, the numbers don't lie, only the big pharmaceutical companies do.

OffMyFaces · 9時間前

The smallpox vaccine was an outrageous failure that made the problem much worse

Smallpox was eradicated by a global vaccination programme. How did that make the problem worse?

lilistj · 1時間前

thank you

[deleted] · 1時間前

Interestingly, /u/brokeglass submitted both links, and they are both from the website vocativ.com.

Outofmany · 1時間前

The great thing about the vaccine hypothesis is that normal healthy factors, clean drinking water, sanitation, nutrition, controlling over crowding are not really important factors in controlling disease, rather, taking our magic pills and injections are the magic ways of curing disease. Let's bury the real truth about health and feed people a superstitious approach based around the infallibility of our institutions, our experts and our claims about our snake oil cures.

Rockran · 9時間前

Appropriate reactionary medical care has had the greatest influence in keeping people alive.

But does that mean these now non-life threatening diseases shouldn't be prevented? - This is where vaccines come in.

These days, vaccines don't save many lives. They largely just prevent survivable-suffering.

Your graphs all address death, so of course they're going to show vaccines doing bugger all - But if you got a graph showing incidences of disease, you'd see the implementation of vaccines was followed by a reduction in disease -> For example and another.

*This is all in reference to first world countries.

Throwaway4Censorship · 9時間前

So I'm not following you on the smallpox thing. If it was so detrimental that we introduced the vaccine, and numbers actually got worse... why did smallpox basically just die right the fuck out at the turn of the century?

Like seriously, it's amazing that you can look at that graph and think "and smallpox is way worse now!" when it's literally dropped to almost zero.

That graph is not at all supporting your anti-vax cause.

Edit: Oh I get it, because the diseases were already on the downturn prior to vaccines, your argument is that the vaccines were unnecessary. Funny. Guess why those diseases were already on the downturn? Hint: It's because of other forms of western medicine – the same western medicine that says we ought to vaccinate. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And further, the graph still shows vaccines work.

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