全 198 件のコメント

[–]Bitcoin_Error_Log 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good luck, you will either drive everyone away, drive yourselves insane, or give up.

[–]doctorwhony 25ポイント26ポイント  (22子コメント)

Disagreeing is hard, if not impossible to do, when the mods delete post they disagree with or when the mods delete posts in order to advance the mods agenda.

Edited to add: I object to you using the term "bitcoiners" as if /r/Bitcoin represents Bitcoin or that you speak for bitcoin users. /r/Bitcoin is just a forum (not an open honest forum but just a forum) where people might come to discuss things related to bitcoin. /r/Bitcoin has no authority whatsoever. Please don't pretend /r/Bitcoin, just as any other reddit forum, is anything more than that.

[–]Peter__R 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

when the mods delete post they disagree with or when the mods delete posts in order to advance the mods agenda

True.

It's also rather funny that the mods have broken many of their own rules in their comments in this very thread (which incidentally are mostly down-voted until hidden). I've seen examples of:

  1. Stone walling
  2. Ad hominem
  3. Side tracking

Paging /u/110101002; you're needed to give an example of lewd behaviour.

[–]statoshi 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It turns out that community-driven moderation works after all!

[–]tothemoonsands 31ポイント32ポイント  (38子コメント)

Can a mod please provide formal definitions and examples (specific to Bitcoin) for the following?

*Stonewalling *Strawman *Ad hominem *Lewd behavior *Sidetracking

It is of the upmost importance that these rules (or any rule changes) be widely known. Any bit of confusion, especially in a global community where languages/cultures vary, can turn toxic if users are banned without understanding why.

[–]doctorwhony 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

Also, as I tried to ask in another post, can you please provide topics that the mods censor, like discussing Bitcoin XT, and when the mods do censor can you make it a rule that a post has been censored and the reason and the option for the reader to click on the post to get the full text of the censored post.

[–]randy-lawnmole 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

The fallout from this one rule is the cause of the majority of your problems.

Promotion of client software which attempts to alter the Bitcoin protocol without overwhelming consensus is not permitted.

what does it even mean? The fact that mods arrogantly consider the community incapable of discussing and coming to it's own conclusions on exactly how an open source protocol should develop is insulting.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

[–]hairytoad 33ポイント34ポイント  (23子コメント)

Rule Number 1: If you say anything negative about the mod teams income source, Blockstream, you are a troll.

[–]muyuu 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indeed this is a troll, and a false accusation.

I'd say this should be a textbook ban, but they might as well allow it as an example.

[–]StarMaged[M] -30ポイント-29ポイント  (18子コメント)

If you say it like that, you probably are a troll.

Posts like this only serve to divide and distract the community, not to do anything constructive. Consider this your warning.

[–]pizzaface18 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

What happens when you think he's being a troll, but he's getting crazy upvotes anyway? Do you go against the community and delete is comment anyway?

[–]societal_scourge 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Buttcoiners do that all the time.

[–]eragmus -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

When something is obviously trolling, I'd advocate just treating it as such, regardless of votes. Votes should have no bearing, IMO. The only criteria should be: "Does this promote a good discussion? Or does this serve to divide and conquer, and be inflammatory? Is there evidence presented? Is it a thoughtful comment?"

[–]StarMaged -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, that's when moderation is the most important. There's almost no point at all in removing downvoted content.

Preferably we would catch the post before it has many votes at all, bit we can't always do that.

[–]doctorwhony 17ポイント18ポイント  (8子コメント)

I may be wrong since I'm new here but I think he's saying it from experience not trolling. I've heard other reddit users had similar experiences. You, StarMaged, need to be less judgmental of users of reddit. You shouldn't be warning users for expressing an opinion especially without further discussion as to the circumstances and history.

[–]eragmus 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

cc: u/starmaged

And this is why, a rule should be made about: not making accusations without producing evidence. In this example, hairytoad could get get a warning and be asked for clarification.

u/doctorwhony, can you clarify what you're saying about "saying it from experience not trolling"? He specifically said "mod teams income source, Blockstream" -- this is purely obvious trolling. There's no "experience" that could inform such a statement.

[–]doctorwhony 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

He may be referring to theymos? I don't know theymos or his income source but I remember reading about other users saying the same thing when they criticize Blockstream, not all of them on reddit.

In any case, this is a dangerous attitude for mods to take. Consider NSA spying on US citizens and other spying agencies in other countries spying on their citizens. That type of behavior by those governments puts a chilling effect on free speech and the citizens of those countries become afraid and watch what they say. The same type of effect happens on /r/Bitcoin when mods censor and warn users for expressing their opinions.

[–]StarMaged -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

but I remember reading about other users saying the same thing when they criticize Blockstream,

That's why those posts are so dangerous: if you say something enough, people start to believe it.

As far as I am aware, no moderator has ever been paid by Blockstream or any of their employees other than a few tips that were publicly sent through ChangeTip that amounted to a few dollars.

The only evidence to the contrary that has been posted was circumstantial based on our mod actions (which we allowed). However, unless all of the mods are being paid by Blockstream, I highly doubt that that would stay private for long.

[–]doctorwhony 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'll accept your explanation of that. That clears the Blockstream situation as far as I'm concerned.

[–]eragmus 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Gosh, and this is why dialogue is so important!! I responded to you sincerely, partly because I was trying to give benefit of the doubt, but I wasn't really expecting a constructive answer, tbh. I estimated it was intended as trolling with 65% chance. Now we see it was a genuine concern! Great to see.

For reference: u/bashco, u/starmaged, u/mineforeman

[–]StarMaged 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I estimated it was intended as trolling with 65% chance. Now we see it was a genuine concern! Great to see.

For the record, I knew that it was genuine concern all along, and would have treated it as such. That's why I'm not too concerned that this policy will lead to censorship.

[–]BashCo -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dialogue, sure. But what about all the bandwagon voting?

[–]livinincalifornia 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of what are referred to as "Core Devs" however are paid by this company Blockstream, and the Core Devs control the majority stake in the software releases that govern the protocol. They, along with the moderators, have reached the conclusion that anything that challenges the idea that the "Core" version of the Bitcoin protocol should control consensus is strictly against the rules of speech here. They literally will not allow the discussion of any clients that challenge Core's dominance from being spoken of if it "modifies the consensus" which is backwards logic.

It's not only blind circumstance that the moderators support the Core Devs interests as well as their connected companies.

Also, read this: https://blockstream.com/team/

[–]Peter__R 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

you probably are a troll

Ad hominem. Reported.

[–]hairytoad 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

How's this? It is my belief that the mods here and on bitcoin IRC are being paid by Blockstream's funders. I formed this belief by observing the pattern that Blockstream is constantly supported and endorsed and negative comments are removed and derided far more frequently than comments about other companies.

It is my assertion that we should be cautious of the intentions of ANY software company that influences bitcoin development. It is my assertion that removing negative comments about a company is NOT in the spirit of the openness of bitcoin.

Intentions matter just as much as code. Denying this just makes this place a joke. It is very possible that the people funding blockstream want to weaken bitcoin and implement their own self-serving plans in the long run. Denying that as a possibility is just not honest.

[–]juxtapozz 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

what about fruitbatting? or scare-crowing? you need to be more specific.

[–]bitsko 11ポイント12ポイント  (9子コメント)

You should not allow moderators to engage in the discussion. The incentive to abuse the powers is too great when they relate to types of argumentation like sidetracking.

[–]dem_eggs 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's really trivial to register a second account so this rule would be completely toothless.

[–]BashCo -4ポイント-3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Most of us tend to take a back seat, but engaging in discussion as a mod is generally okay. Mods are members too, but they should avoid escalating discussions to the point where a ban is even considered. The problem is if/when a mod decides to unilaterally ban someone they were engaging with, because the decision is almost guaranteed to be out of frustration. In those rare cases, the mod should get in touch with fellow mods to get some different perspectives on what happened.

[–]eragmus 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

u/bitsoko makes a good point, but I think it's a waste of talent to prevent mods from participating. Still, certain mods do act a little arrogantly when posting (or maybe just not sensitive to social behavior), and I've seen that end up casting a bad light on all r/bitcoin mods when people generalize it. Not sure how to correct that, but maybe make it clear in writing in the rules that mods are held to the same standards. This will incentivize accountability.

[–]BashCo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed 100%. We've talked internally about that a little, but there's room for improvement. Ordinary discussions with mods should never escalate to a point where someone gets banned, but don't assume that's a license to harass mods because it may be brought to the attention of other mods. If you see a mod trolling, definitely message the rest of the mods about it.

[–]bitsko 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Mods are members too

In this environment, mods are members of the inner party, whose views the outer party must emulate in order to find success on the forum, in this case, not get banned.

[–]BashCo -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

If we assume that mods should be raising the bar when it comes to civil discourse, I'm okay with common decency and non-trollish behavior being emulated.

[–]pizzaface18 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

General question.

When comments and posts are deleted, where do they go? Is there some other place where we can review mod behavior?

Another words, who moderates the mods?

[–]BashCo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

When a post gets removed from the front page, it's no longer visible to mods except in the mod log which tracks all mod actions. When a comment is removed, the comment is still visible to other mods who may choose to re-approve it.

A few of us review the mod log frequently to keep an eye on what's being approved/removed, so one might say that mods moderate other mods. There've been situations where I might disagree with another mod's approval/removal/ban and send them a PM or mail the mod team. Usually something like, "Hey, /u/ xxxx probably doesn't deserve a permanent ban. How about 2-3 days instead?" or simply "why did this get approved/removed?"

Non-mods can also moderate mods by simply messaging the mod team and asking why their post isn't showing or why they were banned, although that's usually explained in the ban message.

[–]statoshi 12ポイント13ポイント  (12子コメント)

I find it fascinating that the /r/bitcoin mods don't seem to support a key concept of Reddit (and Bitcoin) itself - fostering a free market. Community self-moderation is a critical aspect of Reddit - if you believe that the market works, then high quality content will rise to the top while low quality content such as trolling will fall to the bottom.

Perhaps it's because the mods desire to "make /r/Bitcoin a safe and pleasant place" - free markets can be chaotic and unpleasant. But their goal is not safety, it is progress.

[–]biznizza 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Key concepts?

To reddit:

I view reddit as a tool. With the exception of the past few months, the tool has evolved to serve the purpose of moving the best posts to the top. But now some other group of people think they might be able to use it more as a discussion/forum than a news aggregator. Is this the intended use of the tool? Only tangentially. But is it really against some reddit key concept to moderate such a forum? I'm not so sure.

To Bitcoin:

I prefer not to make it political. Rocks dont have emotions, and bitcoin doesn't care about freedom. The "freedom" and "free market" are design aspects to help success, but I don't think they are core concepts of bitcoin. Bitcoin certainly represents these concepts to people, but then again hurricanes represent "god" to some.

[–]statoshi 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, Reddit is a tool that takes a market-based approach to sorting content. It doesn't care if the content is a news post or an opinion post.

What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust, allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party.

Sounds like the description of a free market to me...

[–]biznizza 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

your quote is a technical description. a free market is very different in scope, it is much more about law and duty(tax) and people than the technical description of a secure accounting system. it is a technical solution, it is not a political one.

[–]belcher_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, if you want to end up like /r/adviceanimals or /r/twoxchromosomes, I'd prefer something more like /r/askscience.

[–]110101002 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

fostering a free market. Community self-moderation is a critical aspect of Reddit - if you believe that the market works, then high quality content will rise to the top while low quality content such as trolling will fall to the bottom.

The great thing about Bitcoin is you need millions of dollars in mining equipment to take it over, and you get paid to mine.

On /r/bitcoin you don't get paid to comment, you don't get paid to upvote, but the rewards for promoting an altcoin on this subreddit are huge, and it only costs a bit of time (and maybe money) to create a bunch of shill accounts to promote an altcoin. This means the best content wont always rise to the top, the content that either a malicious person, or another subreddit wants to rise to the top will.

[–]statoshi 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indeed, Reddit has a number of flaws around incentives and vote manipulation. I doubt those will be solved by stricter moderation; I'm holding out for http://datt.co/

[–]eragmus -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Like u/belcher_ said, do we want to aspire for Reddit to be respected and have quality content? Or, do we want to continue with status quo where anyone of note describes Reddit in a derogatory belittling manner? There is too much trolling these days; there needs to be stricter guidelines to help guide people into good behavior, or else there is no reason for the trolling to decline. Remember, if everything is good, then the new policies have no effect. If things are bad, then it won't just be about removing trolling posts, but about temp/perm banning, etc. to address the root of the problem (certain minority of troll users that lack social etiquette, or have some mental illness like 'paranoia').

[–]statoshi 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

It sounds like you're upset that Reddit has a PR problem; I don't think you're going to be able to fix the fundamental issues that cause some people to dislike Reddit.

I honestly don't see the point in banning anyone when it takes 20 seconds to create a new Reddit account. I see a similar problem with regard to mods removing posts; mods are outnumbered by users at a thousands to one ratio. It seems like it's more effective to let the users police each other.

[–]eragmus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://i.imgur.com/cXEeB17.gif , seriously.

Also, it may take 20 sec to create a new account, but then you lose all user history. Plus, mods can be severe on new accounts (since it's legit suspicious for a new user to be posting opinionatedly about bitcoin) by default, as they already are. It may thus be effective :).

Also, when posts are removed, it serves to remove misinformation. We had an example in this thread where a user had a legit concern that Blockstream has been "known" to be controversial, since "others have said so". He actually thought so, due to hearing it! That's the effect of misinformation, and not taking a hard line on accusations without evidence.

Finally, for posts that are removed, a user must be posting the post. If the user has a history, then you can target the root (the user) directly, right? If it's a new user, then back to my first argument 2 paragraphs earlier (just be strict with new users, and let automod filter most spam out).

[–]frankenmint 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey there. Funny note, a friend and I commented that of all the different places for the internet to spew content, Reddit seems to have the most proper grammar. You know, compared to the likes of a facebook or even a pinterest. So despite the fact that trolling and venomous spewing happens here, at least we're educated in our efforts of spewage with said venomry. (Hopefully that made up word will take off like my last made up word - the Virconomy 😏)

[–]pizzaface18 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

After reading the exchanges in this thread, the mods might have better luck taking a few months off and let the community handle it.

Downward spiral.

[–]BeastmodeBisky 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

Can we get some examples of trolling perhaps? There's always been accusations that this sub is 'full of trolls', but in my experience often when people are asked to point to some of the posts they consider trolling they're just dissenting opinions.

So some real examples of trolling behavior could be helpful so we can get a clear view on what exactly is not allowed here.

[–]biznizza 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't know how to feel about the guys using "BIT_C-oin" and such.

I mean I get the joke, but it's somewhat equivalent to calling someone a "poopy head."

Like the people who say "lib-tard" and "Barack Osama," it's super lame but... is it bannable?

And what if someone makes an honest mistake and says "bit-coin" out of lack of knowledge?

I also think we can begin to differentiate between troll posts and dissenting opinions. Your typical troll post DOES contain a dissenting opinion most of the time, but certain other factors might give them away. For example, they simply post a similar(or exact) post on multiple comments and posts without reading any responses. Even if someone does try to reason and and create a dialogue, they're either shat-upon or ignored by trolls. Their goal is not to ask questions, but to be assholes.

Recently, some guy was in a thread simply throwing out FUD to multiple comments. Stuff like "wasn't VanityGen a scam?" There was no research, no response, and now that's just left up there despite it being wrong... as if a logical, thinking user had read it somewhere.

Some people's comment history shows that they are just assholes looking for stuff they don't like. Definitely fuck those guys.

[–]BashCo 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Writing "bit-coin" on accident isn't going to get anyone banned. It's usually pretty easy to tell if someone is continuously drilling "bit-coin" to try and evoke a negative reaction. If there's been a mistake or misunderstanding, just message the mods.

For example, they simply post a similar(or exact) post on multiple comments and posts without reading any responses. Even if someone does try to reason and and create a dialogue, they're either shat-upon or ignored by trolls. Their goal is not to ask questions, but to be assholes.

This would be a typical example of derailing or sidetracking. If somebody's habitually responding without context just to be antagonistic, their odds of being banned will increase somewhat. The best approach with those people is to not respond and report them to the mods, preferably via mod mail as opposed to the report button.

[–]biznizza 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man, the next few days/weeks will be interesting...

[–]eragmus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd urge you to make sure the rules are not too vague or widely-applicable. We need a few quality rules, that are very clearly defined. It's not reasonable to expect everyone to have 10/10 debating skills.

I'd also like to suggest another trolling rule: * Making accusations without evidence *. Please encourage honest discussion rather than speculation. And yes, I mean things like:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ommzh/trolls_are_on_notice/cvyqawq

I think it's fair. If someone wants to show evidence (like that mods are paid off), then be my guest. If not, then best to keep shut and not be inflammatory for no reason.

Also, please clarify exactly what is meant by ad hominem. It can be interpreted differently by different people.

[–]BaurusdB 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

Top-down enforcement in a sub about Bitcoin. The irony. There's even ancap references in the sidebar. Lol.

[–]muyuu 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

What does ancap have to do with this sub moderation?

In pure ancap fashion there are several forums with several moderation approaches and you are free to use whichever you prefer.

[–]rglfnt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

all ancap's are equal, but some ancap's are more equal than others.

[–]belcher_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, I would like to see several bitcoin communities where people can choose between them by leaving one community and joining another.

[–]eragmus 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Who said bitcoiners are ancaps? Bitcoin's origins were in the cypherpunk mailing list (by implication, Satoshi = a cypherpunk), and it was initially developed mostly by cypherpunks (Hal Finney, the first bitcoiner and most famous of all, was a cypherpunk). Ancaps arrived on the scene later.

Definition of cypherpunk:

Activist advocating widespread use of strong cryptography [encryption] as a route to social and political change. Originally communicating through the Cypherpunks electronic mailing list, informal groups aimed to achieve privacy and security through proactive use of cryptography

[–]statoshi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was plenty of overlap between Cypherpunks and Anarchists.

Note that Timothy C. May was a founding member of the Cypherpunks Mailing List. He authored The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto

Ancaps were one of the earliest groups to adopt cryptocurrency because they saw value in freedom from state monopoly on currency.

[–]prezTrump 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It will be interesting to see how this approach works out. I expect drama, but since there's plenty already it's maybe the right time to go for this.

[–]veintiuno 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I like the idea of a defined policy. Would you be willing to cherry pick or invent some examples of the specific trolling behaviors for additional clarity?
EDIT - purpose of examples could also be precedent; a la English common law.

[–]MineForeman[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is not a bad idea but no one has been banned yet under the new policy. We wanted to get this out there so that no one would feel like they had been trapped.

I will start collection posts of bad posts right now (removing the user, we don't want them harassed).

[–]rydan 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

When you say no "Lewd behavior" does this mean no more posting NSFW links that accept bitcoin?

[–]MineForeman[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not at all (please mark them NSFW though).

It is more just dropping a string of creative swearwords to either attack someone or just for the hell of it.

[–]eragmus 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Please clarify that language. I interpreted "lewd" as sexual, too -- in fact the definition is: "crude and offensive in a sexual way".

[–]MasterCh13f 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

These people don't know definitions of common English words and they get to write subreddit rules... fantastic.

[–]eragmus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol... c'mon, let's give them a break. Their heart is in the right place. If we can have a sub with higher quality content, then everyone gains.

[–]redhawk989 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you would do better to purge out the crazy evangelists along with the "trolls". You know, the Bitcoiners who proudly state that they call up and harass places who refuse to accept Bitcoin.

[–]BashCo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We've banned crazy evangelists before. Remember BuffyButtcoinSlayer?

[–]biznizza -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

show me those posts? fuck those guys, m i rite?

[–]_The-Big-Giant-Head_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree with having issues with trolls in this subs but your definition is extremely vague and open to personal interpretation. You need to be more specific what you think is trolling and provide examples. (dogecoin wiki provided in a comment below is a good example).

Further more, banning someone just because a comment or a post might be seen as trolling by a MOD is just heavy handed. You can initially just remove the offending comment/post and notify OP. If OP doesn't take notice and does it again, he/she deserves the ban.

[–]MineForeman[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

banning someone just because a comment or a post might be seen as trolling by a MOD

We wont be doing that, either the person will have a substantial history of trolling or it will be a brand new trolling account.

Removal of posts and short bans may happen if you are normally a contributing member of /r/Bitcoin and just went a little troll happy.

[–]eragmus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, I hope you did see the other part of his post :)

"I agree with having issues with trolls in this subs but your definition is extremely vague and open to personal interpretation. You need to be more specific what you think is trolling and provide examples. (dogecoin wiki provided in a comment below is a good example)."

This is key. There has been misunderstanding here, since the current reasons are indeed quite vague. The more clear things are, the less ability a troll has to complain after being sanctioned.

[–]mors_mortis 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

How about you take a community vote on the matter, instead of forcing your will upon us?

[–]transdimensionalsnug 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

And how would they ensure that no one person votes twice? I can't recall a time that this sub-reddit was ever run like a democracy, so I don't see a reason it should start without a system that ensures that one person equals one vote.

[–]ToasterFriendly 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I vote for banning trolls.

[–]Noosterdam 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If only there were a way to vote on posts, or even comments, and maybe have them be displayed more or less prominently based on that.

EDIT: The solution isn't to ban the potentially questionable content, but to create an environment where intelligent posters moderate (through votes) for you. In particular, activist moderation tends to drive away some of the most intelligent posters, since they know the thread they are posting in could be deleted any time (even the top post on the front page, with over 100 comments) and they are less likely to be the type who enjoy writing cursory comments. Their motivation to write carefully crafted posts, especially on important controversies where the "mod discretion" clause may move against them, is severely undercut when mods feel like they have sweeping "including but not limited to"-type powers.

[–]SoCo_cpp 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

'Like/share to ban trolls, keep scrolling to let trolls fester into cancer.' hue

[–]muyuu -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is satire... right?

[–]nakedbitcoins 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a start. Thanks.

[–]belcher_ -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Good move.

Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism

If something like this doesn't happen, this sub will probably be overrun by low-effort, low-content, trolling and spamming. It's impossible for an internet community to get large and avoid this without good moderation. Perhaps this community more than others should be able to see the limits of downvote democracy, like we see the limits of political democracy.

Long term I would like to see several well-moderated bitcoin communities. People can choose between mods by leaving one community and joining another. Like citizens choosing between countries run by philosopher kings, except migration is much much easier.

Look at some other badly-moderated subreddits like /r/funny or /r/adviceanimals. You'll find the opposite of no-moderation isn't freedom or academia, it's 4chan and 9gag. (Who incidentally DO have mechanisms to stop spammers) We should aim to be something like /r/askscience

[–]Noosterdam 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Content, participation, and quality of discussion seem to have taken a nosedive since the sub started deleting entire front page threads that were heavily upvoted and commented. It doesn't take many instances of these entire-thread deletions before posters (regardless of debate side) who invest a lot of time to make quality comments start wondering why they even bother. It should be no surprise that those who remain tend to be the posters who don't put time and thought into their posts, instead just sniping with the same old talking points. They are hit least hard by the changes.

Funny thing about the swamp of over-moderation: once you're in it, the solution always feels like it is to dive deeper in.

[–]eragmus 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're making this argument, but being someone who invested time in the thread you're alluding to (peter__r's thread), I can say I felt no disheartenment over the thread being removed. I've posted just the same pre- and post- removal.

In fact, what you are missing is the thread was removed because it suffered heavy, blatant vote brigading. In such a situation, with one half of debate being effectively censored and buried, it's not possible to have healthy debate. You may have been satisfied since you support the XT side, but those who were on the other side were not satisfied at all. The thread was effectively a big PR propaganda machine, so I can see why mods did not care to leave it up (and hence mislead users). It was also inflammatory and targeted at developers, which is not particularly productive.

[–]Noosterdam 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess that may have been true for the thread I had in mind, and that was unfortunate. Though I do find it odd (not wrong, but odd) to castigate vote brigaders (meaning the voters, often not the poster, who had may have had no such intentions) when it's clearly direct blowback in response to censorship. Still I seem to recall several threads getting deleted like that.

The more hard-hitting point is perhaps that talking about controversial subjects is being allowed if you're on the "right" side of the debate. If something is controversial, that seems like one of the most productive things to discuss (for the sake of both sides; who wants the other sides' arguments to be allowed to float around all over the rest of the Internet, polluting minds, while going completely unchallenged here?)

[–]belcher_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Those heavily upvoted threads you refer to were all about advocating for BitcoinXT. Including lies like the client being faster, how it would make the price rise and how it wouldn't destroy what makes bitcoin valuable.

Frankly I don't give a damn about up/downvotes. The mob would listen to any charismatic leader and vote for dumb stuff. If I believed in mere voting like that I'd use central bank money. Though at least democratic government checks you cant vote 1000 times as with reddit vote bots.

I respectfully suggest you contribute to another bitcoin community. Competition between moderators is always good. I'm doing this myself with smaller niche bitcoin communities. As the ecosystem grows we cant all crowd into only one subreddit.

[–]StarMaged 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Competition between moderators is always good. I'm doing this myself with smaller niche bitcoin communities. As the ecosystem grows we cant all crowd into only one subreddit.

Absolutely! If there is anything that the /r/bitcoin mods can do to facilitate this, please let us know!

[–]a7437345 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Most people prefer 4chan to /science. Just compare the numbers. Not everyone is a dork.

[–]belcher_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The people who want to look at cat photos and naked women can do that. But not in a place dedicated to bitcoin.

Trolling and spamming aren't even fun and light-hearted like the other subs. It's all vitriol and hate. It has no place here.

[–]a7437345 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Only hate I have seen here is from the mods.

[–]KKamwah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No lewd behaviour? But the adult industry will love Bitcoin!

[–]cipher_gnome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

disagreeing with someone is not trolling

...

Bitcoiners are more than capable of telling each other they are wrong

Ahaha

[–]peoplma 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I actually support the bitcoin mods in this decision, /r/bitcoin has been overrun by trolls for far too long. My main concern is that if you guys have any hope of being able to enforce the new no trolling rule in an unbiased manner, you will need a clear and thorough definition of trolling. Something you can refer to and users can refer to so that they can be sure they aren't in violation of the rule.

Your current definition:

No Trolling - this may include and not be limited to;- * Stonewalling * Strawman * Ad hominem * Lewd behavior * Sidetracking Discussion not conducive to civil discourse will not be tolerated here. Go elsewhere.

is extremely subjective. "May include but not limited to" is just awful wording that basically says you reserve the right to ban anyone for anything at any time. Might I suggest something like /r/dogecoin/wiki/trolling ?

[–]eragmus 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

100% agree, thanks for posting u/peoplma!! I'm not a fan at all of the current definition. Those words are quite vague, and the preface about "may include and not limited to" is abrasive. It does not signal a friendly atmosphere. It will only give ammunition to people to claim censorship, which of course is not the intention.

Focus on crystal clear language, so that misinterpretation is impossible.

cc: u/bashco

[–]peoplma 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hey, we agree on something, hurray! /u/changetip 500 bits

[–]changetip -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

eragmus received a tip for 500 bits ($0.13).

what is ChangeTip?

[–]BashCo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good feedback, thanks. The wiki page is seriously worth considering. Would you mind if we borrow from that page as this policy evolves?

[–]peoplma 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not at all, please do :)

[–]SoCo_cpp 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The sidetracking rule will be very helpful. The crying of butthurt spammers will be glorious.

[–]eragmus 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

What does 'sidetracking' mean, what's an example?

[–]TotesMessenger -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]StarMaged[M] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Note: these are official cross-posts, so be sure to check out the discussion in these places as well.

[–]bitsko 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Vote brigading? No np link.

[–]muyuu 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

The links are np.

[–]bitsko 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

So I see. Still bannable, right?

 [–]110101002XT is a scamcoin -3 points 8 days ago 

Had he applied 'np' would you have kept it up?

 It becomes more ambiguous at that point. Had he done that I would believe he was still attempting to brigade, but I would probably just have given him a warning to stop.

[–]muyuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The np is just a guideline. You can of course still earn a shadowban if you go out brigading.

[–]Introshine 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

So can we still do self-mockery?

[–]nevremind -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Finally.

[–]brighton36 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Finally

You say that, but were you one of the same people that was up in arms about censorship? Because I'd bet you'll be up in arms about this policy for the same reasons after a couple months of this.

[–]zluckdog 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the non-r/bitcoin trolls, there is /r/buttbrigade

[–]rydan 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Shouldn't this be sticky? How else are trolls supposed to see this?

[–]StarMaged 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

The hell? The modlog doesn't show anyone unstickying this, so I don't know what happened there. This was stickied for a few hours...

[–]pizzaface18 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's a troll mod!!

[–]tophernator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's a built in reddit function where if a stickied post is shitty enough it will still slide down the rankings like a loose bowel movement on fresh porcelain.

(Am I banned yet?)

[–]DakotaChiliBeans 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh my, here we go....

[–]livinincalifornia 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's obvious by reading the most upvoted comments on this thread that the community really does not support what is being done here.

The mods are concerned with their own special interests and are censoring information that challenges Blockstream's desire to profit from sidechains.

[–]Fakhoury -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

To be honest, trolls just tell me (and many others) that we are going on the right track, I see this as a measurement of success.

[–]rydan 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

The same could be said about Garza's Paycoin. His forums were filled with trolls.

[–]BlockchainOfFools 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

They were run by them too

[–]muyuu 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Must have been a massive success, right? :-P

[–]BlockchainOfFools 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It turns out Gresham's Law applies to trolls, too.

[–]BeardMilk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The same could be said about Garza's Paycoin.

* banned for straw-man

[–]Chakra_Scientist -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You need to ban cypherdoc2 from this subreddit