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[–]Darth_Punk 975ポイント976ポイント  (126子コメント)

In case anybody is wondering why this study is important, we knew that the black stuff was carbon and nanoparticles are bad, but we weren't quite sure how much of emphysema was from poisons in the smoke, and how much was from immune cells that ingested the carbon particles (and the underlying mechanisms).

[–]suoarski 161ポイント162ポイント  (42子コメント)

So this information would be useful to make health predictions?

[–]spiderwoman1019 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

well, it would make diagnosing smoking as the cause and assessing overall health risk form smoking easier, but because of the way the tobacco industry operates, and the limited restrictions placed on it, it probably won't help many people until it's too late, but this data can be used to possibly find ways to combat some of it's harmful effects in the future,

[–]yurigoul 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

If you can see it on a x-ray I would say - is that possible?

[–]WarPhalange 37ポイント38ポイント  (5子コメント)

No. X-ray scans only differentiate between atoms, not molecules. This is because the energy is so high (in order to penetrate through the body) that "molecules" aren't even visible to the x-ray (it has a small interaction cross section), only individual atoms can block them.

So this means you can't tell that there's gunk carbon vs. body tissue carbon. Maybe if the concentrations were incredible different, but even then detecting carbon isn't really easy in the body due to its low Z number (how big the nucleus is).

And if you look at the periodic table:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Periodic_table_%28polyatomic%29.svg/2000px-Periodic_table_%28polyatomic%29.svg.png

Most of the elements in your body are low Z. Not likely to block X-rays at all, and when you do it is not possible to differentiate between carbon and oxygen or hydrogen without also using a low enough dose of x-rays not to kill the patient. Calcium stands out. That's why we tend to use X-rays on bone fractures. But if you look at iodine, it's even better. That's why we inject it to detect coronary blockage and whatnot. I'm not a doctor. However, there are methods of separating bone and tissue with x-rays. I won't get into that because it involves taking two x-rays of different energies profiles because each atom responds to different energy x-rays differently, and then you subtract out the images. Whoops, there I went.

So, the carbon from the soot would be indistinguishable from your lungs.

MRIs may be able to work better. MRIs can work on low Z atoms because they work much differently. In this case resolution matters. How thick is the gunk? It would have to be caked on there to see anything.

[–]NewSwiss 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

While most people think of X-rays as z-contrast, they're also related to z-density. For instance, an area with a higher concentration of carbon will appear darker than an area with lower amounts (assuming the rest is hydrogen/oxygen/nitrogen). Elemental carbon (as in these nanoparticles) is a more dense form of carbon than the carbon in organic material (which is "diluted" with H/O/N) so a contrast could be visible with X-ray.

Although a better mechanism for detection may be some sort of electromagnetic screening, as carbon nanoparticles have very different electrical properties than the surrounding tissue.

[–]yurigoul 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

But how did they get the TBC damage to show up on X-rays at the beginning of last century? Or is that something else entirely and is that because it can leave behind scar tissue?

[–]UncleWittgenstein 55ポイント56ポイント  (7子コメント)

Actually, it's been known for a long time that smoking oxidizes a methionine moiety of the binding site of anti-elastase/anti-trypsin, which renders it non-functional (can no longer bind to elastase) and so elastase is free to destroy the elastin which makes up a large portion of the connective tissue in the lungs, causing emphysema.

So the connection between smoking and emphysema is nothing new.

[–]NewSwiss 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

It sounds like the current study showed that there is an additional mechanism that results from carbon nanoparticles. So while it is not the first mechanism found, it's still important.

[–]Doctor_of_Something 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think he is saying there are multiple causes, such as the Alpha-1 Antitrypsin genetic preconditioned route. This study shows there's also a more macromolecular effect by resins rather than a straight chemical reaction. But I didn't read the article....so...

[–]snkifador 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

and nanoparticles are bad

What do you mean by this?

[–]MDfootball2014 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

We used carbon nano particles that would get stuck in the lung and ingested by your immune cells. This same phenom is what coal miners and people who use indoor wood stoves experience. It leads to cancer and emphysema. Source, I worked 2 years in Dr. Kheradmand's lab before going to medica school.

[–]GarbledComms 1774ポイント1775ポイント  (949子コメント)

Since this particular disease path is related to the combustion process of carbon this would imply to me that smoking marijuana is as hazardous as cigarettes. Yes/no?

[–]Se7en_speed 2001ポイント2002ポイント  (589子コメント)

Yes, or inhaling smoke from any burning organic matter.

Really you shouldn't inhale smoke, ever. It's pretty bad for you regardless of what is burning.

EDIT: You can't really say that it is "as hazardous" though, there are many different factors that make up the totality of the hazard.

[–]notlawrencefishburne 129ポイント130ポイント  (172子コメント)

What does this mean for vaping?

[–]wolfkeeper 237ポイント238ポイント  (34子コメント)

There's no combustion, and so there's going to be hugely less carbon nanoparticles.

[–]Immortan_Hoe 85ポイント86ポイント  (82子コメント)

I did a lot of research into vaping a few months ago, and the strongest argument seems to be "well come on, It can't be as bad as smoking".

At that time, they were still unsure of what effects (if any) the glycerin in the product might cause.

There may be new info now, though.

[–]Achalemoipas 162ポイント163ポイント  (30子コメント)

The two biggest studies on e-cigarettes to date have these conclusions:

Due to their unique characteristics, ECs represent a historical opportunity to save millions of lives and significantly reduce the burden of smoking-related diseases worldwide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110871/

E-cigarettes around 95% less harmful than tobacco.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review

[–]LawOfExcludedMiddle 17ポイント18ポイント  (15子コメント)

E-cigarettes around 95% less harmful than tobacco.

I'm too lazy to check the paper myself. How exactly can you determine percent harmfulness of a substance?

[–]Achalemoipas 61ポイント62ポイント  (11子コメント)

By calculating harm as a probability of getting sick.

What this means it that e-cigs are 95% less probable to make you sick than tobacco.

Same way they calculate the harm of regular cigarettes and other things. Smoking makes you X% more likely to develop X cancer, etc. You could never get sick too. But chances are that you will.

EDIT: the 5% that is missing is actually a residual risk, basically a margin of error. They can't say for sure it's 100% not harmful, so they arbitrarily decided on a 5% residual risk.

[–]virtusthrow 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

how can they extrapolate health effects 20-25 years from now if vaping has only been popular for a few years? is it just analyzing the chemicals from vaping and already knowing the toxic effects? has anyone done gc on the vapor from vaping yet?

i guess this guy did:

http://www.restek.com/Technical-Resources/Technical-Library/Foods-Flavors-Fragrances/fff_FFAN2127-UNV

[–]Achalemoipas 26ポイント27ポイント  (8子コメント)

how can they extrapolate health effects 20-25 years from now if vaping has only been popular for a few years?

The contents of the e-liquid are really nothing new. Nicotine alone has been studied extensively for decades for products to help people quit smoking. Same for propylene glycol (found in sodas, artificial sweeteners, etc.) and vegetable glycerin (which is found in all kinds of food, make-up, pharmaceuticals, etc.)

It's a bit like trying to determine the effects of a new alcoholic drink composed of wine, beer and vodka. We already know the effects of each component, so there really is no need to do a 20 year study on that drink to determine it's as safe as the average of its constituents.

[–]pooyah_me 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's a bit like trying to determine the effects of a new alcoholic drink composed of wine, beer and vodka.

But the difference here is that the propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine are being inhaled directly into the lungs, which is different from eating or drinking it in the form of sweeteners or applying it as make up because the stomach and skin are less susceptible to irritation. It may be innocuous in these forms, but that says nothing about its potential for harm as an irritant in the lungs.

[–]socsa 43ポイント44ポイント  (24子コメント)

I wonder to what degree water filtration sequesters the uncombusted nanocarbon.

[–]ineptjedibob 43ポイント44ポイント  (11子コメント)

Considering it's non-soluble, chances are good that it's not very effective... but there may be some mitigating effects related to a slower smoke plume velocity caused by water filtration.

TL;DR Probably better than dry smoke, but maybe not by much.

[–]BaseAttackBonus 20ポイント21ポイント  (3子コメント)

running smoke through water only cools the smoke down it doesn't actually filter anything except large particle and burning ash.

the bong water gets nasty because it becomes a weed/ash soup.

[–]EzDaod 20ポイント21ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have a book called The Science of Weed or something like that, written by some doctor at Duke. There is a section in there on bongs/bubblers/whatever you call your water pipe, and what few studies have been done basically concluded it's actually worse for you because the amount of smoke in your lungs is generally a lot larger and the water doesn't filter much.

The book is fairly pro weed so I found that part fairly interesting.

[–]ILovePotALot 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I replied further up with results from a study done by NORML California:

"Disappointingly, waterpipes performed uniformly worse than the unfiltered joint. The least bad waterpipe, the bong, produced 30% more tar per cannabinoids than the unfiltered joint. Ironically, the pipe with the electric mixer scored by far the worst of any device. This suggests that water filtration is actually counterproductive, apparently because water tends to absorb THC more readily than noxious tars. Like the waterpipes, the cigarette filter also performed worse than the unfiltered joint, by about 30%. Researchers speculate this is because cannabinoids are exceptionally sticky and adhere to other solids. Hence, any filtration system that picks up particulates is likely also to screen out cannabinoids."

[–]NecroticFury 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Apparently to an extent but such a negligible amount it doesn't make it any safer.

[–]Frank_Sincatra 132ポイント133ポイント  (327子コメント)

I've heard marijuana generates more tar when burnt but i'm not sure if that's accurate

[–]monsda 735ポイント736ポイント  (221子コメント)

Cigarette smokers may smoke a pack or two a day.

Unless you're snoop dogg you probably aren't smoking that many joints.

[–]jmggmj 262ポイント263ポイント  (172子コメント)

THC users have also been at an ever increasing rate getting their kicks from edibles and vapors - I have never heard of a tobacco brownie.

Edit: Forgot about Gum and Chew - Gum is probably a good alternative but i've heard just as much bad stuff about chew as I have inhaling.

and yes the tomacoo...

[–]serious_sarcasm 159ポイント160ポイント  (17子コメント)

Chew, but it still gives you cancer.

[–]StShrk 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

The risk factor multipler for chewing tobacco/dip is 2-4x, cigarettes are 12x, and betal quid is 16x for developing a malignancy. So it's not good for you but switching from smoking to dipping is still greatly reducing your chances of getting cancer. Vaping needs more conclusive research but a recent meta analysis showed a 95% harm reduction from cigarettes.

[–]jackster_ 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I get my nicotine through vapor. I just got over a HORRIBLE flu/cold. Would have taken weeks for my lungs to have cleared out when I smoked. It would have turned into an ear/sinus/bronchial infection by now if I still smoked cigarettes like I did a few years ago.

[–]zootered 22ポイント23ポイント  (11子コメント)

Here me out: I'm not a wax head, but I really think concentrates are the future. You can buy stuff that is like 95%+ THC and only 5% plant matter. This falls under vaporizing, but you can do all sorts of shit with oil and wax.

[–]rxneutrino 38ポイント39ポイント  (38子コメント)

But the method is different too. Marijuana smokers tend to inhale much more deeply and hold the smoke in for much longer than cigarette smokers.

[–]Ravetronics 46ポイント47ポイント  (33子コメント)

Yeah but if they're taking 3-4 hits, I assume smokers inhale more than 3-4 times each cigarette. I also think I read somewhere that all the absorption happens in 3 seconds, so holding in over that has no effect.

[–]zoot-geist 51ポイント52ポイント  (34子コメント)

Although this is true, research also says there isn't an increased risk of lung-cancer or emphysema with light to moderate cannabis use.

http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1513/AnnalsATS.201212-127FR

[–]GreenStrong 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Tar" is an imprecise term for a mixture of vaporized plant compounds and combustion byproducts, different plants would produce different mixtures of compounds. Cannabis is a more resinous product than tobacco, and the condensate of any vaporized resin certainly puts a burden on the the lungs. But the relative toxicity of one vs. the other, based on patterns of actual use, can only be determined epidemiologically.

Anecdotally, the paint and upholstery in the homes of indoor cigarette smokers become visibly saturated with tar, I've never seen this in the homes of regular cannabis consumers.

[–]SuperHighDeas 242ポイント243ポイント  (80子コメント)

Respiratory therapist chiming in... Yes, smoking pot is comparable to smoking cigarettes, we cannot say whether or not it is worse but it is certainly comparable with regards to temperature and tar. Now vaporizers on the other hand... I'm working on developing a study that will show the temperature of the vapor, the amount of nicotine inhaled per puff, the amount of vapor inhaled vs exhaled, and what exactly the vapor is made out of... SO if there are any chemists reading this thread what should be given off when a mixture of C3H8O2 and C3H8O3 are vaporized at 350F. That is what is going to be analyzed in a lab Hopefully I can get started this month because it would be awesome to take this info to the national congress of respiratory therapists. Maybe then we can give these devices out at hospitals as smoking cessation tools.

[–]brownmoustache 39ポイント40ポイント  (1子コメント)

We'd be more than happy to assist at /r/electronic_cigarette. Please keep us updated on your study.

[–]BauermanVape 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm in the process of starting a company that manufactures personal vaporizers. I'd be extremely interested in seeing the results of this study. As great as I think vapes are, it would be irresponsible of me to sell them without providing the exact kind of information that you're looking to uncover.

[–]iklr 16ポイント17ポイント  (16子コメント)

Just so you are aware, you can not uniquely identify compounds that way. The structure could still be different, so a chemist would not be able to tell you much from the empirical formulas alone.

[–]SuperHighDeas 21ポイント22ポイント  (13子コメント)

exactly why I'm requesting full lab privileges at my hospital, this gives me access to a team of lab techs, pharmacists, pulmonologists and pretty much full range to do as I see fit under the guidance of a physician.

honestly shouldn't be more than a days worth of work unless identifying a compound and structure takes more than 24h

[–]JohnMcPineapple 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

How did you specify the 350F? Most vaporizer batteries offer a customization of the energy applied to the coil (and thus the heat) so this would vary strongly. Or is 350F the minimum vaporization point for PG/VG mixtures?

[–]lazydetective_ 88ポイント89ポイント  (80子コメント)

Follow-up: How would it affect vaping of dry herb? No burning, no carbon?

[–]cuddlefucker 128ポイント129ポイント  (45子コメント)

The science is still kind of out on this one, but the consensus seems to be that for our medical understanding right now, vaping seems to be healthier.

[–]oldworldavacado 21ポイント22ポイント  (8子コメント)

There's no actual combustion, but vaping (at least e-cigs) can still result in particulate matter (like silicate) accumulating in the lungs.

Way less than combustion, but it's still present.

[–]LilJacKill 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

Got a link? I've wondered about silica wicks ever since I started using ecigs, but haven't seen a study that showed one way or the other.

[–]Infinite_Red 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Cotton wicks are much more present than silica in the newer devices.

[–]LilJacKill 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Right. I haven't used anything but cotton in a couple of years.

[–]Infinite_Red 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I imagine a lot of the ego style pens still use silica, which I think most of the studies are done on.

[–]LilJacKill 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would imagine so, as they are still the most common style. What I would like to know/see is a study showing how many particulates are kicked out by an ecig being used properly, wick wet and not ridiculously overheated. Real world conditions versus "My god, if we heat this thing up until it smokes, it's bad for you", you know?

[–]titsonalog 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Remember how when your silica wick started to burn, it hurt like hell? That's proof for me

[–]MookieFish 25ポイント26ポイント  (23子コメント)

As far as I've learned vaping heats up the trichomes just enough to vaporize and then you're left with slightly cooked herb without most of the THC.

edit: no cumbustion

[–]Gylth 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't know about most of the thc, but a lot of it yes. I'm saying this because if you vape dry herb, you can still use the vapid weed to smoke. Hell you can even just eat it straight and treat it like it's an edible (it's been activated by the heat of vaping so you don't need to let sit in butter or anything).

[–]house1 41ポイント42ポイント  (34子コメント)

It is a matter of degrees. A pack of cigarettes contains roughly 20 grams of plant matter that will be smoked. Heavily smokers use a pack to two pack a day, so about entire ounce of plant material smoked.

It is extremely rare/unlike for any marijuana smoker to smoke an ounce a day themselves. At current prices that would cost like $80,000 a year. Heavily marijuana users smoke about a gram a day of plant material.

Add to this that tobacco seems to contain chemicals that make the problem worse while cannabis contains chemicals that help reduce the damage.

If a cigarette smokers consumed only 1 cigarettes a day for their entire lives the negative impact on their health would be very small.

[–]Soulsiren 56ポイント57ポイント  (30子コメント)

Simplifying down just to amount smoked is a bit disingenuous though, because the gram for gram risk isn't the same. Neither is great for you, and heavy marijuana smokers do have several similar risks to heavy smokers -- basically, pot is worse in some regards, and better in others

I'm pro-legalisation (I think it's absurd marijuana is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol especially aren't). At the same time, the picture reddit paints of marijuana also verges on absurdity.

[–]Brady113 31ポイント32ポイント  (16子コメント)

Well emphysema is just one potential health consequence of smoking. However, in terms of emphysema the article says...

A burning cigarette has a temperature of between 800 to 920 degrees Celsius; this is hot enough to cause carbon black particle formation.

A Marijuana joint can burn up to ~1000 degrees Celsius, suggesting it can burn hot enough to produce these particles but whether it's composition produces them isn't in the article.

[–]tavaryn 39ポイント40ポイント  (6子コメント)

Source? That's enough to melt bronze and almost hot enough to melt copper, your throat would be liquefied after smoking one bowl. Cannabis combusts starting at 230°C. There's no reason a joint would burn that much hotter than a cigarette.

[–]Urbanscuba 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's measuring the hottest point of the cherry during an inhale, not the temp of a smoldering cig/joint. What's important is that's the temp during the time you're inhaling which produces the particles. The gas cools before it reaches your mouth because gas doesn't hold heat well.

[–]AngryData 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Provided you smoked the same amount of it, it burned at the same temperature, and gave off the same byproducts. But people don't smoke weed the same a cigarettes so there will be some difference.

One, people don't usually smoke nearly as much material for weed as cigarettes, secondly, weed usually and preferably kept at a higher moisture level, unclear how this effects combustion or temperature. The water vapor itself shouldn't be a problem though. Then there is smoking methods too, a joint is pretty similar to cigarette but a glass bowl is going to burn different.

Of course all this is void if are vaping or using different oils or hashes and such.

Likely marijuana has a bit less of a problem if only due to smoking less actual material

[–]chilaxgamer15 22ポイント23ポイント  (58子コメント)

From what I read/understand Technically yes, but aren't the chemicals and such from cigarettes much worse for you compared to marijuana?

Edit: Yikes people can't ask questions nowadays?

[–]nvaus 32ポイント33ポイント  (43子コメント)

No. Cigarettes contain few of the harmful chemicals that they are known for until they are burned. Cigarette companies don't add tar or formaldehyde, benzene, what have you to the tobacco. Those chemicals are produced via combustion of any organic matter, from tobacco to firewood to lawn clippings. Marijuana smoke will also contain all of those same chemicals that tobacco gets a bad wrap for, apart from nicotine which really isn't the damaging element anyway.

[–]SnakeDanger 51ポイント52ポイント  (5子コメント)

While I don't believe marijuana smoke is better for you than cigarette smoke, most cigarette companies absolutely add chemicals during processing. Some are flavorings while others are used to increase nicotine absorption.

Additionally, in many states the paper in cigarettes must be treated to resist burning when not being actively smoked. It's a safety measure to prevent fires.

[–]gurg2k1 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think he/she was stating that tobacco companies don't add the typical harmful chemicals that we hear about in anti-smoking ads not that tobacco companies don't add chemicals to cigarettes.

[–]AdHom 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

THC also mitigates some of the effects of these carcinogens and there is no where near the same risk of cancer as far as we (as of yet) know.

Edit: source

[–]Sphinctuss 109ポイント110ポイント  (67子コメント)

Even though smoking is completely unhealthy, American spirit cigarettes claim to have no additives. Do the lack of additives mean anything? Does it make them slightly better at all?

Thanks!

[–]blueorchestra 44ポイント45ポイント  (4子コメント)

As someone who smokes American spirits, I think the absence of chemicals is really just making the flavor not crap. It might help a little but not much health-wise.

[–]califuego 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

American Spirits actually have a different kind of additive in tobacco that's much worse for you than they claim. I read an article about it recently somewhere Found it

"adds ammonia to its cigarettes to maximize the amount of freebase nicotine in its cigarettes and thus deliver more nicotine to the smoker,” the lawsuit states. "The more freebase nicotine, the more addictive the cigarette. American Spirits contain extremely high levels of freebase nicotine, 36 percent, compared to Camel’s 2.7 percent, Winston’s 6.2 percent, and Marlboro’s 9.6 percent."

[–]AngryData 51ポイント52ポイント  (12子コメント)

Not really. It isn't some evil chemicals people add that make cigarettes bad or more harmful, its just the plain fact that burning plant matter in an open-air reaction will never be complete and produce all sorts of carbon compounds that are bad for you. Even then it still takes years of constant smoking to develop easily discernible problems. The whole 'chemicals in my cigarettes' shit has always been anti-smoking propaganda. They don't add hundreds of chemicals to tobacco, tobacco produces hundreds of chemicals as byproducts of incomplete combustion.

American Spirit are nice cigarettes though.

[–]eatmydonuts 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

They certainly do add chemicals. One that they add is ammonia, which allows the nicotine to essentially be freebased in your body, leading to a much stronger buzz. Other chemicals are also added to make them taste better, burn smoother, and stay lit more easily. Among other things.

[–]EastenNinja 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nope!

And there is actually now evidence that NAS add ammonia to make the nicotine content more addictive.

[–]contrarian_barbarian 55ポイント56ポイント  (17子コメント)

So do people who don't get emphysema smoke in a different way that permits more complete combustion, or is there something about their body that permits them to process the nanoparticles? For example, my Grandpa smoked a pack a day for 70 years without breathing problems before he died to something completely unrelated.

[–]sgtcentipede 35ポイント36ポイント  (7子コメント)

Emphysema's pathogenesis is the alveoli walls breaking down. This is caused by the neutrophils releasing various proteases as part of the immune response. There is a genetic predisposition to emphysema and it's with those who lack the gene Alpha-1-antitrypsin. This protein is responsible for neutralizing trypsin, a protease, and serve as a balance. People who lack this gene entirely (normally we have two copies, one from mom and other from dad) get emphysema even without smoking. Those with variations in expression can either be more susceptible or less to emphysema. So basically your genes can let you smoke like a chimney until you're 90 or can shaft you early on. So many diseases are our bodies freaking out (immunologically).

[–]EastenNinja 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That sucks eh.

Someone having taken care of themselves and end up with worse lungs than a chain smoker.

But hey, life's life eh. Work with what we have.

I really need to go and get tested since my grandmother has A1D1. Doctors told her to be happy she never smoked because she's be dead by now if she had.

[–]JamesB5446 39ポイント40ポイント  (4子コメント)

I watched something on TV once that suggested your genetics determine how deeply you inhale when smoking, that could have a pretty big impact.

[–]Not_Like_The_Movie 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Genetics do appear to play some part, but it's not just your genetics that affects the occurrence of emphysema, but your environment as well.

The environment also determines how rapidly the disease will continue to progress after a person quits smoking (Yes, even if a person quits smoking, it gets worse over time, but at a far slower rate).

People can get emphysema from just living or working in places with terrible air quality (coal mines, chemical plants, poorly ventilated kitchens, etc.).

Places with poor urban air quality (generally from various types of exhaust), also have higher incidence rates of emphysema among smokers (suggesting that it's contributory, but not the main cause).

[–]saramace 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mine too! My grandfather started smoking when he was 14. He was a farmer basically since he could walk so he spent most of his life outdoors, sunup to sundown. He died at age 78 after his melanoma metastasized :( but he never had any ill-effects from smoking. No COPD, emphysema...not even asthma. The sun is what got him. But he was one hell of a farmer.

[–]vtjohnhurt 11ポイント12ポイント  (9子コメント)

Are carbon nanoparticulates part of general air pollution and would this be a clue to emphysema in the general non-smoking population?

Did the case for reducing (and avoiding) particulate pollution just get stronger?

[–]stillsleeping 94ポイント95ポイント  (77子コメント)

Does the same thing happen when you vape?

[–]Jlogizzle 135ポイント136ポイント  (34子コメント)

There is no combustion process in vaping. The majority of vapor consists of propylene glycol (PG), vegetable glycerin (VG), nicotine, and flavoring. This solution is heated to the point where it evaporates and is inhaled. There can be combustion in the way of burning cotton if the solution runs low. Also, there have been concerns of chemical additions by companies and the degradation of chemicals into more harmful forms during the "steeping" process. There have been some studies, but not nearly enough as of yet. Personally I vape, and I think it is amazing. I don't think it can be anywhere near the danger level of smoking, and would encourage all smokers to make the switch.

[–]MattPH1218 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone who starting using vaporizers to quit cigarettes over 2 and a half years ago, vaporizers helped me kick my pack and a half a day habit.

As you said, most companies use Propylene Glycol, Vegetable Glycerin, Nicotine, and flavoring. The company I personally go to only uses these ingredients. However, as you mentioned there's a lot of shit being sold now that has a lot of questionable ingredients. When I first started with this, I naively tried some of them and immediately got a headache and felt sick. I still don't know what was in it, but I was told it was probably made out of the country.

My point is only that if you vape, make sure you're getting the liquid from a trusted place with a good reputation that lists its ingredients openly. Don't buy it at the gas station.

[–]BillyBucketsMD PhD|Molecular Cell Biology|Radiology 44ポイント45ポイント  (14子コメント)

A good question that will likely be answered with a lot of reddit-standard conjecture but really needs a study specifically looking to answer it specifically.

Right now we do not know the long term effects of e-smoke.

[–]MattPH1218 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

Right now we do not know the long term effects of e-smoke.

This website does a decent job summing up the scholarly articles done on the subject since 2005. Not to say your wrong and we know the long term effects, but its also not true that it hasn't been studied.

http://www.ecigalternative.com/ecigarette-studies-research.htm

EDIT: Wow, gilded for a comment with 3 upboats. Thanks!

[–]BillyBucketsMD PhD|Molecular Cell Biology|Radiology 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

its also not true that it hasn't been studied.

I didn't say it hasn't been studied. I said "Right now we do not know the long term effects of e-smoke." It's true. We don't know. We don't have hundreds (or even tens) of thousands of patients that have been using e-cigs for 20, 30, ... 50 years like we do with other drug intake methods.

Rather than explain it fully myself, I can cite the well-written conclusion from Priscilla Callahan-Lyon of the FDA (Tob Control. 2014 May;23 Suppl 2:ii36-40.; I emphasized the many statements of uncertainty to make the point)

Although e-cigarettes have potential advantages over traditional cigarettes, there are many deficiencies in the available data. ... E-cigarettes may be useful in facilitating smoking cessation, but definitive data is lacking. E-cigarettes may provide a less harmful source of nicotine than traditional cigarettes, but evidence of decreased harm with long-term use is not available. It is encouraging that few serious adverse events have been reported related to e-cigarette use during the years the products have been available, but without a specific reporting mechanism, adverse event data may not be comprehensive. ... Significant gaps exist in the health-effects data for e-cigarettes. Product standards including criteria for ingredients, quality and manufacturing have not been developed. There are limited data on the effects of recurrent long-term exposures to aerosolised nicotine, flavourings and PG. The effects of an aerosol delivery system on the quantity of nicotine consumed by users are unknown.

The paper is actually a great review and it's freely available from PubMed Central. Here's a link.. If I had to place money on it, I'd definitely say e-cigs are safer than conventional cigarettes. But I stand by my initial statement: we do not know what the long term health effects are.

[–]MattPH1218 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I said "Right now we do not know the long term effects of e-smoke." It's true.

Right, of course. I did not mean to discredit your comment, just wanted to correct any assumptions from readers that this was a totally unstudied subject. As you mentioned, it's impossible to test long term effects without a control group who has been smoking these long term.

My own personal experience is that there is some misinformation on the subject. I have a good friend whom, along with me, quit smoking cigarettes two years ago after a pack a day habit and switched to ecigs. She now has a girlfriend who smokes, and has been spreading the story that 'ecigs are worse than cigarettes'. Because of this, my friend is back to smoking cigarettes. If you press her friend on the subject, she points to the fact that there's 'no research'.

As a former smoker, I think a lot of smokers will grasp at any excuse they can find to not quit. I know I did for quite a while. So I just wanted to throw it out there that there is some early evidence that says, in the short term at least, ecigs are far better than cigarettes.

[–]leshpack 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Unlikely, especially since the liquid and cotton don't burn.

[–]Katie3634 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think the real takeaway here is that the particles don't go away over time after a person has quit smoking. There are definitely benefits to quitting, but it's decidedly better to just never start smoking in the first place.

[–]jungleboogiemonster 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's how I interpreted the article, but the topic should have been discussed in greater depth. Does this mean someone who smokes one cigarette will forever carry carbon particles in their lungs? Does a regular smoker who quits still carry a risk of emphysema 30 years later?

The key risk is that once someone has inhaled a sufficient level of particles, the particles cannot be removed from the lungs and the risk of ill-health is very real.

[–]bonejohnson8 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

What about bong hits? Do the nanoparticles stay in the water?

[–]Darktidemage 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah every study you see pro Mary Jane is always focused on Cancer and ignoring Emphysema. Bleh I'm going to start swimming laps again.

[–]yunus89115 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

While all smoking is harmful, does this study mean that certain methods are worse than others? Would vaporizing result in less or no carbon particles? Is there some other method that can cause the tobacco to burn without creating the carbon?

[–]Mandog222 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Vaping doesn't involve burning so it wouldn't produce these nanoparticles.

[–]QuantumBlunt 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

Mechanical engineering chiming in who's familiar with combustion processes. The amount of carbon particules you get as a result of combustion is directly proportional to the amount of air available around the combustion. Hence if you space your grinded tobacco leaves properly so that you get a stochiometric combustion (perfect amount of air per particules of carbon), in theory, the smoke should contain only CO2, as far as carbon is involve, which is MUCH less damaging than solid carbon (C) particules mentionned here. I see this as a simple design flaw in cigarettes that is easily fixable, unless I'm missing something important here. I get that lowering the density of the cigarettes imply more rolling paper needed which increases production cost. The current density we find in cigarettes is probably the result of some optimization calculation that yields the least amount of paper that can maintain combustion under some design conditions. But still, this could easily get fixed or at least vastly improve. I mean cars are strictly checked to make sure their combustion respect emission standards. I don't get why something that produces smoke DIRECTLY into your lungs wouldn't be subject to the same standards or even much stricter ones.

[–]EastenNinja 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting thought...

Some of the ultra low tar cigarettes work on that principle actually.

Lightly packed and burns really hot with a very large cherry on the tip.

[–]kmelkon 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

So does this apply for passive smokers too? My whole family smokes all day long.

[–]EastenNinja 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Air pollution of any form will be a factor.

If the indoor smoke is unavoidable, get an air filter at the very least.

[–]mutatronBS|Physics 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, carbon nanoparticles, whatever the source, can contribute to emphysema.

[–]Debonaire_Death 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

So do these nanoparticles eventually get cycled out of cells? I smoke about 2 cigarettes a week. It doesn't seem to be compromising my blood oxygenation, aerobic capacity, or circulation, but I'm curious if such scant dosage would prevent an aggregation of these problem molecules.

[–]sfshilo 35ポイント36ポイント  (21子コメント)

Plentry of long term pot smokers have the same problems as cig users. I have no clue why anyone would smoke with the options available today.

[–]brickmack 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Combustion gets more complete with more heat and oxygen added, right? I wonder if this could be solved/at least reduced by putting in something that burns really really hot (but slow enough to not make the cigarette blow up) and some LiOH or something like that that produces oxygen when burned.

I guess any additives like that would probably just contribute to deaths from other smoking related causes, but maybe theres some combination of chemicals that would work for this that have less fatal effects when burned than the emphysema