全 89 件のコメント

[–]warranty_voids 10ポイント11ポイント  (11子コメント)

Well, this is quite interesting. I'm from the Netherlands and I've seen these struggles in quite a few places; They are quite famed to have happened in 1936 in Belgium and even here these had severe influence on our policies and manner of thinking. While it took quite some years until the Belgians adapted labour laws, most of Western Europe decided to allow unions and even nowadays they are pretty much everywhere here - sometimes taking it a bit too far.

However, it's quite interesting to see why this never developed in the United States and to this date it is perfectly allowed to be fired for being part of a union in certain states! It explains quite a lot - perhaps it was too early, and coincident with the October Revolution which may have caused a too extreme reaction against the movement.. However, it would be quite interesting to see the situation in 30 years!

[–]OfthedoorTop Contributor 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

However, it's quite interesting to see why this never developed in the United States

This is quite inaccurate. The US labor movement of the 20's was the biggest in non-communist countries. The 1928 crisis, the the war, then Mccarthyism killed it.

[–]warranty_voids -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay, :) Let's say developed and remained!

[–]Repticon [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

In the US, the National Labor Relations Act protects the rights of (most private sector) workers to join or organize a union. It's illegal for an employer to fire or otherwise retaliate for this reason.

[–]bigxspider [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

In at will states they'll just fire you for some other made up reason

[–]richardtheassassin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

No, actually, they can't. Not over union membership.

[–]martong93Top Contributor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The point of at will is that no reason has to be given to be fired, and the point of the National Labor Relations Act is to protect workers from being fired for a certain reason. It's up to the person fired to "prove" he was fired because of union membership, an impossible task if the former employer can say whatever the hell they want and everyone else just has to take it.

[–]Repticon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Some employers will indeed try to get around the law by using a flimsy pretext. This sometimes blows up in their face however, because depending on how blatant the retaliation is, it can make for a successful lawsuit. Totally random example here.

[–]richardtheassassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

it is perfectly allowed to be fired for being part of a union in certain states!

Actually, it's not, so either you didn't understand it or else the video is a bunch of bullshit. Or both, of course.

[–]putin_is_extremist 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Everyone will be screaming for communism when inflation gets out of control.

Edit: I like capitalism, just stating a fact.

[–]deliosenvy [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The problem is it's not really true capitalism. More of socialist capitalism.. you know along the lines of: privatize the profits, socialize the losses.

[–]deseretrenegade [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

But how is that not true capitalism? The wealthy are largely unregulated so they can go as far as they want to, gaining political control and wealth in a never ending cycle.

[–]MineBuilder1912 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Ok, I'll admit that the article itself is pretty bad, but I think this actually gives me a pretty good chance of having my thoughts heard. As far as I can see, the comment section has dozens of people saying that communism is evil, killed millions and was the staple of regimes such as Stalin and Pol Pot. I wish to explain why this was, slightly, not the case.

The main problem with communism is that it is often incorrectly defined. Karl Marx's vision of communism is incredibly different to the type of "communism" practised by Stalin and Pol Pot. True communism is the belief in an idealised (and therefore practically impossible) society where all people are equal, each working to their true ability and receiving an equal amount of this work, and an equal amount of reward. It is, in my opinion, impossible in the real world due to the limitations of human nature and free will. However, all those dictatorships, such as Pol Pot and Stalin, aren't actually true communism, merely a bastardised version of it. It's actually kinda similar to the knock-off versions of movies that companies put out to try and trick people into buying them. These dictatorships use the idea of true communism as a means of tricking people into putting them into power and then, once they have the power, abandoning the idea in its entirety to create a fascistic state under the guise of a communist one. These dictatorships are no more communist than Hitler was (and before anyone says anything Hitler was a facist, the exact opposite of a communist).

Furthermore, also this might be changing the topic slightly, I believe that there is often a confusion in America between socialism and communism. Socialism is NOT communism. Socialism is actually a blanket phrase used for a wide range of left-wing political beliefs, with common themes being state ownership (or nationalisation), regulation on the market and the implementation of a welfare system. I personally believe in state control of vital resources such as electricity, transportation and water, with an added emphasis on universal healthcare and education. I believe in regulations on the marketplace to ensure against monopolies and the practice of tax-dodging by multinational corporations. I believe in help for the poor and needy, while still encouraging them to find employment. I believe the rich should be taxed more than the poor, simply because no one man is an island of himself. All these things I often find support for, but yet people tell me socialism is evil and corrupt, despite agreeing with the socialist principles I listed above. I feel that although the era of Macarthyism might have been over on paper for quite a long time, it's effect on the mentality of the American people is still felt to this day and has, in certain cases, lead to a severe stifling of debate and freedom of thought. Ironic in a way that the land of the free should have such cute a lack of freedom and liberty in political expression.

[–]redditsucks1984 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're very confused. I'll lay out the short-term conditions that Marx and Engels had for the transition to Communism. This is copied directly from The Communist Manifesto;

"The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.

Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
  3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
  4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
  5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
  6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
  7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
  8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
  9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
  10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c."

The only one of these socialistic conditions that was not put into effect by the Bolsheviks was the first part of No. 8, "Equal liability of all to work", and even that only had a few exceptions. All of the rest were met by Soviet law. These conditions were also applied to the PRC, and many other states which called themselves communist before they either tore themselves apart or had to adopt much more practical policies. No, it wasn't the end result ie the abolition of money, state, and class. But they were communist. Not in order, but in ideology. The purpose of most communist governments has been to implement conditions that, if you believe Marx, will lead to communism as the final stage of economic systems. You're also incorrect about what fascism is, it doesn't simply mean a dictatorship and is in fact a well defined political ideology (usually, funnily enough, involving a sort of non-Marxist socialism), but I won't go into that now.

As for your rant about socialism and how it's real good and hunky-dory and the only reason people don't like it is because they're stupid and they don't know what it is; first of all it is directly related to communism as it features heavily in Marxist ideology. To a communist, socialism is the stage after capitalism and before communism and therefore that is usually what they implement and agitate for, see the excerpt from the Communist Manifesto. But regardless, it's dismissive and pretentious of you to claim that anyone who dislikes socialism and the expansion of state controls is simply ignorant of what it actually entails, especially as you yourself are showing great ignorance. All in all, please make sure you actually know what you're talking about before writing up something like this.

[–]Banana-cream-pies [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

How is fascism the opposite of communism? Fascism is a system of distributing power and communism one of distributing resources. On an economic level Hitler was a national socialist (NationalsoZialist) which is kind of close to communism. Volkswagen literally means car of the people.

[–]This_Is_The_End [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

NationalsoZialist

Get some education about Hitler and his national socialism. Just because he used some bullshit bingo, the goals of left and right an Germany were very different. You are embarrassing for humankind.

[–]SneakySnakeXTop Contributor [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

telesur propaganda strikes again.

Question: How many of their documentaries are Pro-American? How many are Anti-Russian? none

[–]richardtheassassin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Televisora del Sur is a pan–Latin American terrestrial and satellite television network headquartered in Caracas, Venezuela. TeleSUR

Well, you can hardly blame them. After all, America is the cause of Venezuelans not having any toilet paper any more! It has nothing to do with Chavez and Maduro fucking up the economy through their "Bolivarian Socialism" nonsense, and please ignore that Chavez's daughter somehow became a multibillionaire (in USD) with assets stuffed in foreign banks.

[–]SneakySnakeXTop Contributor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I agree but some people wont take your comment at sarcasm.. always good to put a "/s" at the end.

And yeah, this is Venezuelan propaganda that was unheard of until the past few months and they're really good at pushing Anti-American propaganda.

Never once heard them say anything nice.. not once, yet it's not "propaganda" just like Pravda or RT totally isn't propaganda... only Western media does that! /s

[–]AndyAndrophileTop Contributor 9ポイント10ポイント  (25子コメント)

meh, pretty much the sort of superficial one-sided agitprop you'd expect from a former Russia Today presenter.

I'd love to see a documentary on 'How Anti-Capitalism Became Academia's Unofficial Religion'. Of course, if such a documentary exists and were posted here I'd have approximately 8 seconds to catch it before it was downvoted into oblivion.

Edit: I see that teleSUR is headquartered in and largely funded by the Venezuelan government. lol. quelle surprise!

[–]SkrpTop Contributor 11ポイント12ポイント  (19子コメント)

I'll ask what I asked the guy in the Putin documentary who made a similar claim that it was just propaganda: Do you have any specific criticisms? It'd be easier to have a discussion if you bring up specific points.

[–]PM_your_readinglist 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

My guess is Andy disagrees with the assertion made in the title. You will also notice that r/shitstatistssay, a free-market brigade subreddit, has linked this post. I'd be surprised if this thread contains any actual discussion in the next 24 hours.

[–]AndyAndrophileTop Contributor -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't disagree with the title at all. And I made my comment before shitstatistssay arrived and have nothing to do with that sub.

[–]PM_your_readinglist 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So why do you think Anti-Communism is America's unofficial religion?

[–]richardtheassassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It must be true if the pro-communist fruitcakes from Russia Today claim it.

[–]AndyAndrophileTop Contributor -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do I think that?

[–]AndyAndrophileTop Contributor 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Uhhh yeah, like I just said, it's a grossly one sided caricature of a "documentary". They basically interview one person for their "historical" information, the leader of an officially Marxist political party that has consistently supported the Cuban and Venezuelan governments, and has gone so far as to speak favorably of Mao's cultural revolution. A stance so absurd it could make a cat laugh.

The presenter doesn't even attempt to dress the blatant ideological biases of the program in the thinnest gauze of disinterest. It's like watching a documentary on "Why Christianity Is Awesome" by Fox News.

[–]SkrpTop Contributor 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Alright, that's certainly more specific, and I would agree that it is unashamedly one-sided.

Is there any particular information in it that you believe to be wrong, or perhaps information missing from this that you think should be in there, but isn't?

[–]emmytee 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

having watched the first 5 seconds, the tone of her voice made me think "Propaganda, nope!"

I'm aware thats not a super good reason though lol

[–]SHOW_ME_YOUR_GOATSTop Contributor 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

While a bit sensationalist its not exactly wrong. Socialists have been treated laughably horrible since pretty much forever here in the US. People who held socialist ideas were not protected by the constitution until relatively recently.

[–]AnotherDayInMe -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Socialism =/= communism.

[–]richardtheassassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

superficial one-sided agitprop you'd expect from a former Russia Today presenter.

Ah, that explains it.

[–]FapMaster64 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, you're not supposed to point that stuff out! Lol you pc breh?

[–]Tw36912 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cinlton said, "Americans will get use to communism "

[–]TotesMessengerTop Contributor 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

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[–]alllieTop Contributor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Very interesting.

[–]Ketosis_Sam 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yes I cant imagine it was the piles and piles and piles and piles of dead bodies the communists were stacking up where ever they had power that would drive people to be so against it. Of course what am I thinking! Those were not "real" communist! We just need the "right" folks in charge this time around, and the communist utopia can finally be realized. I look forward to the next Holodomor, Great Leap Forward, and Cambodian Killing Fields. Sure signs of progressive progress.

[–]ShamalamadindongTop Contributor 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

We just need the "right" folks in charge this time around

Yes! The right guys! Like Pinochet! Or Batista!

[–]Ketosis_Sam 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Or the Castros, or Chavez! Venezuela is a shining workers paradise on the hill of progress!

[–]ShamalamadindongTop Contributor -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Chavez is dead, Maduro is the one to blame.

[–]richardtheassassin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Ignore Chavez's daughter's multiple billions of U.S. dollars that she stashed away around the world. That was totally her own legit business savvy!

[–]Ketosis_Sam [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

A hero of the people like Chavez will never truly die. Quit being defeatist comrade.

[–]bad_pattern8 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

maybe through the mid-70s

by now america's unofficial religion is progressivism, veneration of the victim and rent-seeking

who has been excommunicated for being expressly communist in the past three decades? and we have no shortage of open communists

and which -isms and -phobias WILL get you excommunicated from employment and much of your social circle

[–]PM_ur_RumpTop Contributor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Funny how this thread demonstrates the title perfectly.

[–]redherring2 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

How? How did Communism get a bad rap?

Oh maybe it was the execution of 60 million people by Stalin, the rape of all German women in post-war East German, and the enslavement of eastern Europe for 40 years that dimmed the luster of Communism. Or maybe it the tens of millions that Mao killed in the name of an ideology. Or maybe it was the genocide by the Khmer Rouge that killed 21% of the country's population (1.7 million).

All this death and idiots like Abby Martin still think communism is great. I suggest she try moving to North Korea for awhile.... Why the hell do you think that North Korea (or East Berlin) had to build a wall to keep their people in?

[–]spammo5 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

The fuck does rape of German women have to do with communism? Allied soldiers raped plenty of German women; does that reflect on capitalism?

And 60 million people by Stalin? Your entire comment is pure bullshit; are you hoping to inspire other teenagers to be as edgy as you? Why not round Stalin up to 100 million? Soon we'll be surprised that anyone in Eastern Europe is alive at all.

[–]SneakySnakeXTop Contributor [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

His comment isn't bullshit, just goes against the circlejerk.

Mao = 35 Million

Stalin = 45 Million

80 million on the high side, 60 million on the low end. It's not bullshit at all. Each killed far more than Nazi Germany.

[–]spammo5 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So while there is no consensus on the actual numbers, you just put 45 million and claim it to be correct? Oh Reddit, "summarizing" complicated things into simple numbers, based on whatever agenda they want to push. How did you come up with 45 million, if you don't mind?

[–]SneakySnakeXTop Contributor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How many do you think Stalin killed?

[–]Paulbo83 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Lets just make the US communist because it worked so well to go communist in the past

[–]SneakySnakeXTop Contributor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This propaganda channel is from a Pro-Communist country so of course they'd suggest capitalism is terrible and communism is great.

Funny thing is even Russia is more capitalist than communist and has been for decades.

[–]honeybadger5386 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So I just don't think this is anything other than dumb.

In America, about 50% of the economy is completely voluntary. Live your life and do what you want.

Another 25% or so is stuff basically everyone uses to a large extent that government provides involuntarily. Basically you have to buy it, but no one really objects to it because we all need it.

The final 25% or so is pretty much bullshit, implicitly corrupt bullshit like half the DoD's budget, the war on drugs, corporate bailouts, no free trade for drugs, have to see a doctor for penicillin lol, etc. I hate this shit and fight it whenever I can.

Soviet Union was 5% voluntary agreements, 35% stuff we all need, and 60% bullshit - how are we seeing no investment, poor housing, and poor health care when their defense budget routinely was larger than those in the West?

Moreover, anyone is free to be who they are in America. I know a few communists, and I've read Marx. I don't disagree with him on ethics, but his economic analyses regarding diminishing marginal returns to capital have so far not yet set in yet, and his predictions regarding population growth have been the opposite of what occurs during development. These are at the center of his assumptions about the failure of capitalism.

Finally the implicit assumptions about the role of the state in economics spill over into the state's role in social matters. See Mao's batshit insane cultural revolution, pretty much anything in North Korea, or Russian seriousface over sodomy.

[–]EDI-Thor -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lol I love how commenters chose to hide their votes in a politically-oriented discussions.