全 50 件のコメント

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 6ポイント7ポイント  (17子コメント)

Woah lads, way to pile on /u/r271answers. He's probably going to tell me that he's a big boy and can stand up for himself, but I don't particularly care. Someone has to jump in.

When did you do your last corporate Scientology service?

When did you do your last corporate Scientology service?

What's your opinion of Hubbard's claims regarding his second wife, Sara Northrup? Do you think he was lying?

Do you think David Miscavige lies to Scientologists?

What's your reaction to what L. Ron Hubbard ordered done to Paulette Cooper?

What do you think about Lisa McPherson?

How much money have you donated to the church and/or invested in books and memorabilia?

This is supposed to be a discussion thread. Not even that, actually, it's a thread to solicit information for a college project. It's certainly not a sec-check, which is what it's starting to sound like. /u/FreeholdNJ, /u/YourMomDisapproves; the pair of you ought to know better than this. /u/r271answers is neither responsible nor answerable for the misdeeds of the Church to which he belongs. Neither are the majority of public Scientologists. By behaving in such an aggressive fashion, you lend credence to the Church's characterization of its critics as being "suppressive", and put both the harmony of the sub and the plurality of viewpoints on offer at risk. Further, I think it's slimy of FreeholdNJ to insinuate that the sources of information offered by r271 are not offered in good faith. Verges on a personal condemnation of his character, virtually.

And for the record, I'm not even a Scientologist. First book about Scientology I ever read was by Robert Kaufman (a source which I would recommend to OP). I'm actively working to undermine the monopoly the Church holds over its concepts and processes. What are you guys doing, other than picking on a productive contributor to the sub?

[–]Echo1883Mod, ex-staff 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

She*

Otherwise I agree lolol

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oops! Sorry!

EDIT: In my defence, it's a matter of laboratory proof that there are no girls on the internet.

[–]r271answersCofS Public 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

First book about Scientology I ever read was by Robert Kaufman (a source which I would recommend to OP).

I agree on this for sure. It can be found online here.

He's probably going to tell me that he's a big boy and can stand up for himself, but I don't particularly care. Someone has to jump in.

Oh by all means! Thanks for jumping in - I've learned that if I say something like what you wrote then the next posts are "oh well you are just playing the victim and couldn't wait to play that card" so its always good to see that someone else views these as aggressive tactics.

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

If it's any consolation, /r/FreeholdNJ has only been a redditor for a few hours, and all of his posts are in this thread. Looks like someone created an account with the intention of harassing you.

Based on /u/YourMomDisapproves's posting history, I think he has good intentions. I can't really speak for the guy though, since I don't know him.

The majority of us appreciate the perspective you provide, even if we don't agree with it and dislike the CoS as an institution.

EDIT: And even if, as in my case, we are covertly working towards the total enslavement of humanity. For the glory of Marcab.

[–]r271answersCofS Public 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think /u/FreeholdNJ actually made a post about religious cloaking prior to replying to my post so based on that and their responses to my posts I think he is primarily concerned with that issue.

I certainly welcome him to make a top-level post detailing why he feels that Scientology isn't a religion but feel that making accusatory remarks to another poster is probably not the best way to go about disseminating his viewpoint.

I actually thought /u/YourMomDissaproves's question:

How much money have you donated to the church and/or invested in books and memorabilia?

was reasonable, however their response to my answer seemed a bit non-sequitur and intended to make a point that they were unable to make when my response was reasonable.

I think he has good intentions

Oh I'm sure they both do! I look forward to reading more posts from them, I just hope they town down the language that seems intended to educate me on the abuses they perceive or accuse me of participating in them.

[–]FreeholdNJ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This account was created, initially, to give some information to Edwardfy9.

[–]FreeholdNJ 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Being "aggressive" is not Slimy. Deceit in the defense of evil is slimy. Laughing at what was done to Paulette Cooper is slimy. The inquiring student, Edwardfy9, deserves to be alerted to the nature of so called "harmless" Scientology.

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

I've never said that it's harmless, nor have I laughed at Paulette Cooper. Neither, to my knowledge, has /u/r271answers. But assuming that someone is arguing in bad faith is slimy. Perhaps my choice of language was too strong, and I'm sorry. I understand that you feel like you need to get this information out there, by any means... But there is such a thing as picking your targets.

[–]FreeholdNJ 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

I did not assume that someone was arguing in bad faith, I demonstrated, with evidence and logic, that someone was arguing in bad faith. There's a difference. This is not personal. Scientology is what it is and Scientologists do what they do. Corporate Scientologists apply Scientology which has its own teachings on how to deceive and manipulate. It's called "applying the tech." On this thread, through questioning, that is exposed to daylight.

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

But she didn't just quote a HCOB at you and run for the hills... I'm not sure how any of her behaviour resembles that of a die-hard corporate Scientologist. Why would she even be here, for starters? And what do you make of her reading (and even going so far as to recommend) Kaufman's Inside Scientology?

[–]FreeholdNJ 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's called PR damage control in an overwhelming situation - Plus the use of "suitable guises," in this case, the "suitable guise" of a "reasonable (corporate) Scientologist."

It's not something that one should be impressed by.

A decription of what was done to Paulette Cooper was given, following the assertion that A Piece of Blue Sky had been read. The description demonstrated that A Piece of Blue Sky had not been read.

Other tricks, and old PR lines, were also attempted.

Most likely what you have on your hands is an OSA volunteer.

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't understand how someone from OSA could associate themselves with a bunch of "suppressives" like us, or be so cognisant with critical sources of information. Surely they'd be afraid that we would invalidate their gains, or suppress them in some heinous way? Why would they admit to being a part of the church at all? Wouldn't cognitive dissonance totally fuck them up after a while?

I dunno man, I get the need to be cautious but I just don't think she fits the profile :/

[–]FreeholdNJ 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I guess you've never known an OSA covert volunteer. They exist.

This person may or may not be one, but something is very wrong when someone dismisses what was done to Paulette Cooper as being laughable. It's simply disgusting. Sorry, but it's a bit much.

[–]TheMightyNumberNineMarcabian Agent 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I actually don't know what happened to Paulette Cooper. I've not been in this scene for very long, see. It must be something pretty grim for you to feel so strongly about it, and I'd very much appreciate a link. In the meantime, I'll engage in a bit of google-fu.

Even still, I think that this user has proven that her loyalties are "flexible" when it comes to the Church. She readily recommends materials by mega-heretics like The Pilot, for instance. Perhaps her position on Paulette Cooper is insensitive... perhaps she's looking at it through a lens of Church teachings... or for all I know, she could be in the right and you could be the bullshitter; though I'm not saying that's what I believe, you understand. But either of the two former possibilities would suggest that more dialogue, not less, would be the way to go.

I just think that absolutely savaging someone who was trying to contribute to the discussion is a bit shit.

[–]FreeholdNJ 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You don't know what happened to Paulette Cooper? Well, make it your business to find out. I've known since before the Internet, and have seen - first hand - the actual documents. Now, with the Internet, it's easy to research.

And no one was "savaged." Calling a spade a spade is not "savaging."

[–]underthere 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty open on this sub about my past growing up in Scientology, but I am pretty gunshy about connecting my real name to any ex- or anti- Scientology activities. That said, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have without giving you my name!

[–]r271answersCofS Public 3ポイント4ポイント  (28子コメント)

I'm both a member of the church and an active member of this sub so I should be able to help you out there :-) feel free to give me a PM. The best book that I know of for academic use is The Church of Scientology: A History of a New Religion by Hugh Urban, a religious studies professor at Ohio State. Also you should check out the Faithology entry on Scientology, it's a 3rd party, objective, website that I think goes over the beliefs of Scientology better than the official Scientology website.

I hold a lot of views that are different than the "standard" views held by members, but I will point those out as/if they come up. Also one thing is that I'm a "public" member, which just means I'm a regular ol' member of the church rather than being on church staff or in the monastic order (called Sea Org). I would argue that most of the horror stories you hear come from staff and Sea Org members.

I have been warned by my professor that attempting to interview current members can be "dangerous"

No haha the only danger would be if you got a crazy one that was dead set on recruiting you and hounded you to go into a Church and see for yourself. And even if you did that the worst case would be that you would get junk mail from them after that.

ex-members difficult due to a tendency to be reclusive

Some ex members are very vocal. Most members are cautious to discuss the subject and when they do they are often vague about things but there are two reasons for this - one, there is a bit of fear of saying something wrong and misrepresenting the religion and two because Scientology tends to be very subjective and there are a lot of things about it that are simply very different from one person to the next.

[–]FreeholdNJ 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's interesting, r271, that you would suggest Hugh Urban's book rather than other books written by academicians in "New Religious Movement" studies. Urban, in parts, is quite critical of Scientology, and I think you sense that anything less than a critical book would not be taken seriously by someone who - even superficially - has examined Scientology related material, on this site and Scientology related material throughout the Internet.

So, with some strategic wisdom, you recommend Hugh Urban's book, which, despite its criticisms of Scientology, affirms corporate Scientology's "bottom line," and most essential (to its survival) assertion, which is the (dubious) assertion that it's a bona fide religious organization, and not - and many regard it - an unethical commercial enterprise, practicing psychology without a license, and using deceit and mind manipulation, and an assortment of abusive practices, while disguising itself as a "religion."

There are other books about Scientology, written by other academicians, that also support corporate Scientology's "bottom line," but these, ultimately, have been discredited, their authors having been exposed as hired shills for corporate Scientology, so their usefulness is limited.

One of these exposed, corrupt, academicians, is J. Gordon Melton, who takes credit for the acronym, "NRM" - meant to be a substitute for the word "cult." Melton also takes credit for the spreading of the "New Religious Movement" genre of academia.

The genesis of what is called "New Religious Movement" studies was none other corporate Scientology's Guardian's Office with its "Scholar (corrupting) Program" of the 1970s. The Guardian's Office - since renamed the Office of Special Affairs - handles, amongst other things, covert Intelligence (spying), covert operations (including harassment, bribery, and blackmail), and front group activity.

Remarkably enough, corporate Scientology has managed, through a sustained covert effort over many years, to not only corrupt, but to create, an entire category of academia.

Hugh Urban is an example of someone who, innocently, became involved in this category of academia and, honestly and with good intentions, worked within it.

Yet, unavoidably, he's framed - surrounded and dominated - by its suppositions, suppositions that were put in place by earlier corrupt academicians at the behest of deceitful and abusive organizations, most notably corporate Scientology.

Thus, even though with reluctance, his book is regarded by some corporate Scientologists, involved in communicating with "wogs" (never Scientologists) and "SPs" ("Suppressive Persons") on the Internet, as an acceptable "particle" for the "handling" of the curious, in an environment where damning evidence on Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, and Scientology's current dictator, David Miscavige, is vast and overflowing.

Succinctly put, recommending Urban's book is a last gasp attempt, in a desperate situation, at PR damage control.

[–]r271answersCofS Public 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Succinctly put, recommending Urban's book is a last gasp attempt, in a desperate situation, at PR damage control.

Well maybe if I worked for the CofS that would be true - but the reality is that Urban gives a fair treatment of the subject. As an example, he tackles issues like the OT3 mythology with context that other religions have secret teachings and the issue of "is Scientology a religion" with the question "who gets to decide what is and what isn't a religion", leaving the answer up to the reader. Urban, unlike just about every other author on the subject, seems to have no desire to sway the readers opinion on Scientology but rather he seems to genuinely want to simply fully inform the reader about its history and practices, with proper context, and allow the reader to come to their own conclusions.

So, I actually don't consider his work critical of Scientology in the negative sense - but rather objectively illuminating. He does a great job of covering "both sides of the story" all in one book. As such, I actively recommend it both to critics and to my fellow members (as well as academics looking for proper academic resources on the subject).

Works by other academics, such as Melton's work on Scientology, I consider to be too shallow of a treatment for serious academic use. Most academics writing on the subject simply don't have enough knowledge about it to do it justice.

I've never been one to blindly promote Scientology or to paint it as anything other than a complex subject that is best approached with an eye for nuance.

[–]FreeholdNJ -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't know if you've done the "level" of "OT 3," or to what extent you've studied Hubbard's writings, but OT 3 is centered around an incident on the time track, described in detail in 1967 and 1968 by Hubbard.

OT 3 is a psychological procedure whereby one is instructed to (mentally) "duplicate" the "time, place, form, and event," of a specific incident on the "time track."

It was meant to be literal and is taken literally by Scientologists. It is not "mythology." The "mythology" line is one forwarded by Scientology apologists - a line which the well meaning Hugh Urban was duped into accepting - and serves to muddy the water on this topic.

Urban accepts corporate Scientology's dishonest disguise as a religious organization which, as already noted, is the "bottom line" for corporate Scientology.

Cover of Urban's book, affirming corporate Scientology's claim to be a religious organization: https://comparativestudies.osu.edu/sites/comparativestudies.osu.edu/files/styles/250_square_thumbnail/public/scientology%20book.gif?itok=waraHSFb

Thus, it meets the "bottom line."

[–]r271answersCofS Public 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I mean "myhtology" in the academic sense of the word I don't mean "false". Within the context of religious studies, the description of Incident 2 is what Ninian Smart would classify under the "mythological dimension".

[–]YourMomDisapproves -1ポイント0ポイント  (21子コメント)

How much money have you donated to the church and/or invested in books and memorabilia?

[–]r271answersCofS Public 2ポイント3ポイント  (20子コメント)

The average is around 10% of my income, an amount that is pretty normal for a religious American to give to their church. Unlike with most churches, though, I've gotten back services and materials for that money.

[–]YourMomDisapproves -4ポイント-3ポイント  (19子コメント)

Unfortunately the services are brainwashing and the money goes straight to Miscavige's lavish lifestyle while the sea org members starve and do whatever they can to stay out of the rpf. Very sad.

[–]r271answersCofS Public 1ポイント2ポイント  (18子コメント)

the services are brainwashing

I guess we are just going to have to disagree on this.

the money goes straight to Miscavige's lavish lifestyle

Partially, probably, but on the other hand it also goes to things like ensuring we have very high quality books and other materials.

while the sea org members starve and do whatever they can to stay out of the rpf.

This may apply to some and that is their life. I have several friends in SO that I talk to regularly and neither of these things apply to them.

[–]YourMomDisapproves -5ポイント-4ポイント  (17子コメント)

I guess as long as things don't affect you PERSONALLY then it's all good. A little advice, don't tell them all your secrets in the confessionals and you probably want to think about reading a piece of blue sky some day.

[–]r271answersCofS Public 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

reading a piece of blue sky some day

I've read the first edition - I need to pick up a copy of the new edition though it seems to be much better organized and documented than the first one.

[–]FreeholdNJ -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Wow, r271, you seem to have read everything! How many of your corporate Scientology friends have done that?

When did you do your last corporate Scientology service?

What's your opinion of Hubbard's claims regarding his second wife, Sara Northrup? Do you think he was lying?

Do you think David Miscavige lies to Scientologists?

[–]r271answersCofS Public 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wow, r271, you seem to have read everything!

Not everything, but I'm decently well versed on the controversies surrounding the church. I don't have opinion about all of them or really care about all of them, but I've certainly been exposed to them.

How many of your corporate Scientology friends have done that?

Not enough of them!

When did you do your last corporate Scientology service?

Yesterday.

What's your opinion of Hubbard's claims regarding his second wife, Sara Northrup? Do you think he was lying?

Which claims in particular? i certainly don't believe LRH was perfect and really claims about his second wife are outside of my interest in the subject - but if you can be more specific I'll let you know if I have an opinion on it.

[–]FreeholdNJ -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I notice you didn't answer the question, "Do you think David Miscavige lies to Scientologists?"

Let me ask you this, r271, before following up on any other questions or responses, what's your reaction to what L. Ron Hubbard ordered done to Paulette Cooper?

[–]YourMomDisapproves -5ポイント-4ポイント  (10子コメント)

How could you possible read that and still support this piece of shit organization that rips families apart. The brainwashing is obviously stronger than you think.

What do you think about Lisa McPherson?

[–]r271answersCofS Public 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Because I believe its much more complicated than simply being a "piece of shit organization that rips families apart". I have the impression that any answer I give will just cause you to get more upset so I'll just leave it at that.

[–]YourMomDisapproves -4ポイント-3ポイント  (8子コメント)

Not acceptable. You have given no good answers to why you continue to stick up for these criminals after researching their illicit activities and you didn't even touch on Lisa McPherson. Scientology is a sick cult and I look forward to watching the organization go down in flames.

[–]Not-A-ScientologistNew SP VIII 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think the church is "dangerous" at all to you as a curious college student. They are more concerned with vocal ex-members, protesters and reporters. You can use their official church locator to find your closest location along with e-mails and phone numbers, shouldn't be too hard.

You can find an ex-member to talk to either here, exscn.net, twitter or some other site (google is your friend here). Reclusiveness is not much of a problem on that front anymore, tons of people are open about having left and willing to talk. Just contact a few people, there's certainly someone willing to be interviewed.

You could also contact someone practicing independant scientology/freezone to get a third viewpoint on this if you are looking for more material.

If you're really lucky some people from this subreddit might even be willing to talk to you, if so they'll probably pm you or make a comment.