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Baby killers, then & now... (imgur.com)

chabanaisStronger than derp. が 投稿

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[–]mswilsoMajor derp -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm pro choice, your body, nobody should tell you what to do with it, as long as it doesn't harm someone else, and I personally and scientifically don't equate a early fetus to a human.

The phrase you used was, "As long as it doesn't harm someone else".

So what if you "personally" or "scientifically" don't equate an early fetus to a human being. It's not your call. And it's certainly not the government's call, which is exactly why Planned Parenthood-lums need to be defunded, and immediately.

You CANNOT definitively say (nor can any medical doctor) that life does not begin at conception. In the absence of information, it is always best to err on the side of caution. (See this for clarification).

If it IS a "person", a human being, even a proto-human, or a potential human, whatever phrase you choose to use, it is not for you, or for any other person to arbitrarily decide that at any point it is NOT a human being, and do whatever you want to with it.

Just to be clear, this is the same logic that was used to put the Jews in the gas chambers in WW2. First, the powers that be decided that "Jews were not human beings." (Do some reading in history if you don't believe me). Then, after deciding that they were not "human" it was decided that they were a drain on the countries resources (remember, National "Socialists"?), and so needed to be disposed of, because they were not desirable. The next comes the "Final Solution" which is eradication of the undesired population. In that day, it was Jews. In this day, it is unborn children. Tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Personally, I think you need to do some deep soul searching. Because one of these days, you yourself may be deemed an "undesirable population" and no longer considered "human" by someone else's determination. Explain to them that it's not your choice, and see how far you get with that.

Explain that to the 50 million children murdered since Roe V. Wade. It certainly wasn't their choice. Explain it. If you can.

[–]PurpleJuiceman 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

Okay, your argument is honestly terrible, like I'm not even being malicious here, I can not believe you are equating the killing of living, human, thinking, Jews- who can react to stimuli, think, have memories, process thoughts,etc to Abortion.

you say planned parenthood needs to be defunded, because "it's not the governments call", you do realize they don't force you to abort right?

It's the government helping women who would most likely find another way to abort, not support,etc to do things safely.

You say "you can not definitely say life begins at conception" but, if we go by life starting at conception, we might as well say that life begins before conception, because cells are alive, so we should make it law that men can not masturbate, or use contraceptives?!

Life does not begin at conception.

If it a potential human, you have no choice

Damn, I guess millions of men and women are wasting tons of potential humans, despite the fact that it is a phyiscal choice?

now to your last paragraph, you claim I need deep soul searching, because you imply that "some power" will deem me, unfit to live. I'm already alive, buddy, I'm all for preserving life when it is alive(but conventional standards), but living/= unborn.

You also go on to say that the jews of today are unborn children, but, do you realize that abortions aren't selective, it's not a specific group or race being targeted in abortions, and again, they aren't alive yet.

By this logic, we should keep everyone who has suffered brain trauma alive as long as possible, even if there are no signs of recovery, and they are mentally a potato, because we can't decide if they should live or die. Also, if we can't determine if people can live or die, we should keep serial killers/extreme criminals alive too, because we can't decide if they live or die.

Aside of logic, putting it all down the drain, and pretending you made a point, do you really think someone is going to say "Hey it's purple juiceman, a living breathing male, with a clean record,mental capacity,etc does not deserve to live, he is undesirable".

[–]mswilsoMajor derp 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I dunno. Ask the Jews in Auschwitz if they ever thought they would be targeted for elimination. Chances are, they didn't think so either.

Funny thing about that. When you are in a position of power, those kinds of things only happen to "other people".

I would not wish this on anyone, but someday, you may find yourself being part of that "other people". Fyi.

[–]PurpleJuiceman -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fetus=/Human

have you ever tried talking to a fetus?

Have you ever seen a fetus eat?

have you ever seen a fetus react to any sort of stimulus before quickening stages?

COMPLETELY different things, we are not performing fucked up experiments on them, we are not gassing them, we are not starving fetus's, we are not feeding them drugs,etc; we are not torturing fetus's.

[–]mswilsoMajor derp 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

All those things you mention (communication, self-efficacy, etc.) are also true at the END of life as well as at the beginning. Have you ever visited a nursing home. My guess is no.

There are people, fully human, who cannot speak, cannot feed themselves, have to be cleaned after bodily functions...in short they have the same value to society as humans at the other end of their lives.

Are you standing on your position that old folks as well are "useless tissue"? Where do you stand on euthanasia? How is that any different morally from abortion? Murder is murder...the taking of a human life, that is not yours to take, regardless of the age, sex, race, or any other factor.

And who makes that decision to end their life? You? A politician? A judge? If they can arbitrarily end someone else's life....they can end yours, with the same moral justification. Think about it.

[–]semantical 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

You say "you can not definitely say life begins at conception" but, if we go by life starting at conception, we might as well say that life begins before conception, because cells are alive, so we should make it law that men can not masturbate, or use contraceptives?!

I don't think you understand the science or the philosophy.

The science: A sperm or egg are not whole organisms while the embryo is a whole human organism, i.e. human being. The sperm or egg are merely part of the parent. A sperm has the potential to become like us like any other part of a human by a passive potential. That passive potential is not the same as the active potential for the embryo to mature into an adult form of itself. A germinating seed has the active potential to become a tree and the tree has a passive potential to become a canoe. The embryo has the same kind of potential to become like us that your 10 year old version of yourself had to become as you are right now.

The philosophy: The best and sufficient reason for why it's wrong to kill anybody is because it deprives them of their active potential to experience the goods of their life. In other words, it's sufficiently wrong to kill because it deprives the victim of their future of value (where a future of value is a future like ours, the kind of future we have as members of a rational kind).

Therefore, your argument is stupid and comes from ignorance of the pro-life position.

[–]PurpleJuiceman 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Wow nice twist, then, just as our sex cells are merely part, the embryo is only part, and the potential of a embryo out side the womb is literally 0. The embryo has the potential of a Sex Cell, in it's early state, inside the womb.

Your argument is stupid, and comes from the ignorance of science, reason, logic, and ignorance of the pro choice position.

[–]semantical -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

You're clearly ignorant of the science here. The potential of the embryo to mature into an adult stage of itself (like us) is not the same kind of potential that a sperm or egg cell have.

I explained in my previous comment that there is a clear and obvious distinction between two types of potentialities.

Your "objection" ignores that distinction. I've tried to clarify for you that the morally relevant kind of potential is the active potential and not the passive potential.

[–]PurpleJuiceman 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Are you sure about that? Last I checked, when a sperm and egg cell combine, they turn into a fetus after some development, the fetus, at first, is esesentially not much more complex than the egg cell, and outside of the womb, like the egg cell, the fetus has no potential.

you keep forgetting that fetus's despite the potential to develop into a human eventually, the fetus is not a conscious, living being at first. I am for early term abortions- by choice.

Again, I am personally against abortions, and would suggest to a friend to not get one, but I would not force that friend to not get one, because it is her choice, and the develop of her sex cells, in the early stages. I am pro choice, despite my personal beliefs. I do not think you should be able to terminate a fetus after or during the quickening stage, because that is where I believe signs of human life is exhibited.

[–]semantical -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

outside of the womb, like the egg cell, the fetus has no potential.

If I were chained to the bottom of the ocean I would die from lack of oxygen but it doesn't mean I lack the active potential to breath oxygen.

you keep forgetting that fetus's despite the potential to develop into a human eventually

The fetus is a human being already. If you refrain from killing it then it will develop, by its own intrinsic volition, into a more mature human being.

[–]PurpleJuiceman -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

by its own intrinsic volition

I don't think you know what that word means.

The fetus, is extremely dependent upon the mother to develop at all, after all, the fetus is the development of the female child carrier's sex cell.

to claim that a fetus will develop on it's own volition is like saying " I have these seeds, if I plant them, and I don't feed them water, they will grow, on their own volition."

[–]semantical -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The womb isn't a workshop that puts the baby together. The growth is intrinsic. That's because it's a whole human organism. Like you have the intrinsic, self-directed capacity to grow into a more mature form of yourself that's exactly what the embryo is doing. This is just plain science. You can deny science if you want but you're going to look ridiculous doing it.

[–]PurpleJuiceman -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, but the difference between you and a fetus is, outside of the womb, once again, one of you will be breathing, heart beating,etc, on your own, while the fetus will die very quickly(if not instantly)

[–]semantical -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

And anyone will die if you put them on mars. It's not morally relevant. It doesn't mean I cease to be a person with rights just because I'm on mars. Your view is really ignorant and stupid.

You should read more on this subject because you sound extremely ignorant.