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Baby killers, then & now... (imgur.com)

chabanaisStronger than derp. が 投稿

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[–]MustangMark83Libertarian Conservative 33ポイント34ポイント  (25子コメント)

I'm a right leaning independent and I can say that you're not going to win anything with this abortion debate. Abortion has been made legal for over 30 years, it's not going anywhere. Instead of focusing on things that turn off all independents from voting for your party, perhaps focus on taxes, national debt, jobs, immigration, etc.

[–]awksomepenguin 9ポイント10ポイント  (11子コメント)

Slavery was legal in many places in the US for over 80 years before it was abolished. The fact that it was legal for so long was not a solid argument then, and it isn't a solid argument now.

[–]EspadaNumberNine -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

And it took the bloodiest war in American history to end it. Is that what you see happening over abortion?

[–]awksomepenguin -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. I certainly hope not. The point is that just because something has been a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be changed.

[–]veyron9009 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd imagine it would be bloodier considering you'd be fighting women.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm a right leaning independent and I can say that you're not going to win anything with this abortion debate.

Who said it's about "winning?"

[–]DJWhamoSingle Payer Proponent 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm of the opinion that making it completely illegal may be infeasible for the time being, but gradually restricting it by challenging how people think may not be impossible. For example, someone who supports abortion in principle may be convinced not to support third trimester abortions. Someone who supports it in principle may find the concept of gender-based abortions reprehensible. Someone who may support abortion in general, after seeing videos on the procedure, or an ultrasound of the child they are going to abort, may change their mind.

Ultimately, I think more can be accomplished if we address the hearts and conscious of people, as opposed to changing the law in that regard, but you have to understand something: if you see abortion as murder, then it's incredibly difficult in good conscience to support it's legality.

[–]Palmar 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Restricting it should absolutely be a thing.

Here: http://www.infopankki.fi/en/living-in-finland/health/abortion

liberal nordic finland has relatively strict abortion rules. I wonder if liberal Americans who so often idolize the scandinavian countries want to adopt these rules.

[–]stubingConservative -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

if you see abortion as murder, then it's incredibly difficult in good conscience to support it's legality.

I don't think it is hard if you still believe in a human's right to bodily autonomy. I don't believe any human has the right to attach himself/herself to your body without your consent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion

Also, some people will say "consenting to sex is consenting to being pregnant." While I heavily disagree with that statement, I still believe someone can take away consent to someone occupying their body at any time. We still allow people to take away consent to sex half way through. We understand that bodily autonomy is a very important right for humans.

[–]DJWhamoSingle Payer Proponent 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't say that the attaching of one body to another is a matter of will, though. Nor is the continued attachment throughout the pregnancy. You can hardly fault the baby for the position nature has placed it in. And if taking away consent in this respect results in death...

[–]stubingConservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can hardly fault the baby for the position nature has placed it in.

I don't blame the baby. However, that doesn't mean fuck bodily autonomy. The violinist didn't put himself in that position either.

And if taking away consent in this respect results in death...

Are you familiar with the bone marrow transplant list? It is where you sign up to be a donor and can be called in when needed. You consent to give your bone marrow. However, you can withdraw that consent at any time before you go in for surgery. That means you can get called in and at the last second back out, even if it means the death the other patient. We respect bodily autonomy more than the loss of life.

You may disagree with how we do the bone marrow transplant list, but I feel like you have to be one side or the other if you want to be ideologically consistent. Either we are allowed to force people to go into surgery to give up their bone marrow if they signed up at one point and not allow people to get abortions, or we keep the current system we have.

[–]cajunFAITH -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So the baby isn't a human. Got it.

[–]stubingConservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nope. You didn't even read what I posted or you replied to the wrong person. I don't believe any human has a right to attach himself/herself to your body without your continuous consent. Just like no human can continue to have sex with you, without your continuous consent. Bodily autonomy is a very important right for humans to have.

[–]cajunFAITH 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So one human has the right to kill another human?

One irresponsible human has the power to kill another human because of their own mistakes?

[–]stubingConservative -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

So one human has the right to kill another human?

Well under certain conditions, yes. When someone holds a gun to your head, you have a right to defend yourself. That defense might result in that person's death.

One irresponsible human has the power to kill another human because of their own mistakes?

First off, not everyone is an irresponsible human that gets pregnant, but that is beside the point.

You are missing the issue completely. You keep bringing it back to "people kill babies since they made a mistake." The issue isn't people getting pregnant just to abort because they can. The issue is that no human has the right to intrude on someone's bodily autonomy.

I'm very much against abortions when the baby is at the age when he/she live outside the mother. The mother should have doctors induce pregnancy at that point.

[–]optionhome 18ポイント19ポイント  (10子コメント)

Liberals never have a problem with communist governments as in Vietnam who murder millions of innocents.

[–]KingJak117 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not true communism /s

[–]optionhome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So true. Amazing how the liberal brain can categorize things as not "true" once the very thing that they supported ends in failure or worse.

[–]ePrime 24ポイント25ポイント  (7子コメント)

Statements like this are toxic to actual discussion. You know, and everyone else here knows, that liberals are not ok with communist governments that murder millions. Just making a statement demonizing the opposition into murdering innocent sympathizers and pretending it's true makes it impossible to actually grasp the liberal position and attack it where it will make an actual difference and perhaps change minds.

[–]uberpowerLibertarian Conservative Traditionalist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a play on words. Hardcore abortion supporters will never acknowledge that an unborn baby is anything other than a fetus with zero rights. So it's not baby killing, because to them it's not a baby.

Language. The left insists on their words and definitions being the right ones, and they are winning that battle. Conservatives should fight for better more accurate truer language, and Trump, of all people, is currently leading that battle.

[–]REMSheep 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

While there is evidence that US troops killed babies, there isn't much to support that people spit on soldiers.

[–]oussanModerate -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

We're a small sub, but /r/republicanmemes would enjoy this kind of content.