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Giles was concerned about Willow practicing magic because of the whole Mark of Eyghon thing. (self.buffy)

ChillocksTroublemeat Palace が 投稿

The Dark Age
S2E8

Giles: I was twenty-one, studying history at Oxford. And, of course, the occult by night. I hated it. The tedious grind of study, the overwhelming pressure of my destiny. I dropped out, I went to London. I fell in with the worst crowd that would have me. We practiced magicks. Small stuff for pleasure or gain. And Ethan and I discovered something bigger.

Buffy: Eyghon.

Giles: Yes. One of us would go into a deep sleep, and the others would, uh, summon him. It was an extraordinary high. God, we were fools.

Buffy: You couldn't control it.

Giles: One of us, Randall, he lost control. Eyghon took him whole. We tried to exorcise the demon from Randall, but it killed him. We killed him.

I mean, I knew Giles was right scolding Willow about getting too into magic, but I completely didn't connect that he experienced it all himself firsthand!

In Flooded (S6E4) he calls her a very stupid girl for bringing Buffy back.

GILES: Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed, the lines you've crossed?

...
WILLOW: I brought her back!
GILES: At incredible risk!
WILLOW: Risk? Of what? Making her deader?
GILES: Of killing us all. Unleashing hell on Earth
...
GILES: You were lucky.
WILLOW: I wasn't lucky. I was amazing. And how would you know? You weren't even there.
GILES: If I had been, I'd have bloody well stopped you. The magicks you channeled are more ferocious and primal than anything you can hope to understand, and you are lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur!

The parallel just seems so clear that I can't believe I didn't see it sooner.

Edit: Thank you so much!

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[–]kodachikuno 35ポイント36ポイント  (0子コメント)

You rank, arrogant amateur

This is one of my favorite insults to throw at newbies at work.

[–]Cielle 68ポイント69ポイント  (5子コメント)

Bear in mind that Giles' perspective is not always reliable. He's cautious and restrained to a fault, and we see that have negative results many times over the course of the series - for example, his season 7 attempt to kill Spike, or his insistence on killing Dawn in season 5, or his refusal to aid Angel in any way during season 5 of AtS.

His admonishment of Willow is arguably in the same category - even at her worst, the threat of Dark Willow came from her sadness and rage, not any lack of control over her powers. And season 6 Willow is a moral quandary all on her own.

Basically, Giles is the show's father figure. He's wise and protective and caring, but a recurrent theme in Buffy (from the beginning!) is about how growing up means realizing your parents don't have all the answers and learning to define yourself outside that safety net. And Giles is no more immune to that than Joyce.

[–]hglonjic 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

To be fair, Gile's refusal to help Angel in season 5 of AtS was probably justified. I mean, Angel did end up spoilers killing Drogen and causing an apocalypse, and then doing some more terrible stuff in Buffy Season 8 comics.

[–]legobunny 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like this and think it is absolutely true. Many many times we see Giles as the wise elder, the guy who knows most and finds answers but time and time again we also see others taking over and even disputing his ways. And it's fun to watch, because as it all happens you can totally see his reasonings and understand, even without agreeing. Which makes me love him as a character

[–]CJGibson 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think this is pretty fitting combined with OP's observations. Parents often want their kids not to do stuff that they themselves did as kids and it's often because they themselves did it as kid sand have realized the horrible consequences that it had or could have had.

[–]ChillocksTroublemeat Palace[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. It's almost like Giles is yelling at his younger self when he's upset with Willow. He doesn't want her to make the same mistake he did.

[–]RTSchemel 24ポイント25ポイント  (5子コメント)

I've always wanted for someone, anyone in the Buffyverse to make a bigger deal out of the argument Will and Giles have in the kitchen. She threatened him. That is a huge deal. Would anyone have let it slide if Buffy had threatened a mortal? Hell no. It was a sign of things to come, and unlike her vengeance on Glory, this was uncalled for.

I don't think that Giles pushed her further down the path of magical abuse and addiction by calling her out on the lines she crossed. The thing about addiction is you can only start to get better when you accept that you have a problem. If Giles failed there it was by not warning anyone about what was said in the kitchen and what was brewing.

[–]iLouminator 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've always wanted for someone, anyone in the Buffyverse to make a bigger deal out of the argument Will and Giles have in the kitchen. She threatened him. That is a huge deal.

I agree. Her response to Giles is chilling and a clear indicator that her problem with magic has already gone beyond the point of reason.

Alyson Hannigan plays this scene incredibly well. For a moment, we get a glimpse of Dark Willow - anger, arrogance, hedonism - followed by that slight shake of Alyson's head and the subtle change in her gaze. Then she is Willow again. It's so well done.

[–]ummmwhut 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are a few scenes where I'm like, "Goddamn, this needs to be expanded on." Because it feels like they just get swept under the rug, and this scene is definitely one of them.

That being said, I can also understand to some extent that Giles sees all those "kids" as family to him, so he likely didn't want to turn an offhand comment into a huge deal. At the time of the argument he's furious with her, but the idea that Willow has an addiction hasn't been broached yet. It was obviously very out of character for her but I can also understand him not wanting to immediately run to someone else and get them involved on a one time, comment that stemmed from a heated argument.

[–]Ahab17000 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Giles is full of shit. "How dare you bring Buffy back and ruin my early retirement, Willow!"

[–]Beloit 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

More like, "How dare you bring Buffy back and nearly ruin the entire planet by risking to unleash hell on earth and killing everyone, Willow!"

[–]tclovescheese 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think Giles has some pretty legitimate concerns, personally.

[–]skeezycheesesCallous and strange 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

It always me bothered when Giles left again in S6, more because of Willow than Buffy. He is shown wrestling with his decision and its impact on Buffy and Dawn, but not Willow - even though he clearly recognizes her abuse of magic and where she's headed.

[–]RTSchemel 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a really good point that I hadn't ever thought of before. Buffy may need to stand up on her own but Willow needed supervision and guidance when he left. Again, he also didn't warn anyone what he was seeing in her. I don't know if his staying could have made a difference in how things turned out in the end but it is something to consider.

[–]toychristopher 10ポイント11ポイント  (35子コメント)

However, all he achieved was alienating Willow, which didn't help prevent her from going down the path she went down.

[–]SoMuchMoreEagle 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

It took Tara leaving and Willow nearly getting Dawn killed before she really realized she needed help. I'm not sure Giles could have said anything that would have made a difference.

[–]Gneissisnice -3ポイント-2ポイント  (33子コメント)

Agreed, Giles was way out of line with his little speech.

[–]Beloit 18ポイント19ポイント  (30子コメント)

I don't think Giles was out of line at all with his "little speech". Like he says, Willow could have unleashed hell on Earth and killed everyone. Should he have been nicer? "Oh Willow, you nearly destroyed the earth. Haha, maybe you shouldn't do that again, huh?"

[–]Cielle -5ポイント-4ポイント  (29子コメント)

Man, they bring people back all the time in the Buffyverse without any apocalyptic consequences. I don't think Giles really knew what he was talking about in that speech.

[–]Beloit 6ポイント7ポイント  (28子コメント)

Nah, he's only a watcher with intensive training in and extensive knowledge of magic who has seen the dark part of magic up close and personal in his youth. Plus the Scoobies only have to avert another apocalypse every other Tuesday or so. I'm sure Giles doesn't know what he's talking about at all.

[–]Cielle -1ポイント0ポイント  (27子コメント)

Giles is flawed like everyone else in the setting. We see that his knowledge is imperfect on multiple occasions.

Is there a reason you're being a dick to me about this?

[–]Beloit 7ポイント8ポイント  (15子コメント)

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just saying that Giles being flawed and occasionally being wrong does not mean he's not the most knowledgeable person there is when it comes to the abuse of magic and its potential consequences. Willow played with power beyond her comprehension when she pulled the stunt of resurrecting Buffy and IMO she fully had coming what Giles was telling her because at that point she was in fact a "rank, arrogant amateur" addicted to magic. Just because it did not cause an apocalypse right then and there does not mean there was no risk when she did it. In fact, Buffy's resurrection was what enabled the First Evil to rise, which in turn caused the death of countless of people and slayers.

[–]TinMan2256 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

To take Beloit's comment and present it in a more ahem polite way: Yes, Giles is flawed and perhaps went a little too far when he spoke to Willow like that. But "out of line"? Not at all.

What Willow did with Buffy's rez could have gone very, very wrong. What they don't spend a lot of time on is that Willow is dabbling into black magick for that spell - and very powerful magick at that. She's literally ripping Buffy's soul from another dimension and putting it back in her body, and making deals with a very dark power in order to do so. It just so happens to go her way because she makes the proper offering and has enough power to force things her way, in the end. If she were a mite weaker or had messed something up in the slightest way, she could have unleashed all that dark power on Anya, Xander and Tara at the very least. At the worst, she could have inadvertently allowed that dark power to control her completely, meaning that the baddies would have access and direct control of this stupid powerful magic being, who would wreak havoc all over, without a Slayer around to stop her.

So, what Giles is trying to impress on her (in a rather ineffective way, I agree) is that she doesn't know everything, which we see her take to heart in season 7. Her teenage arrogance and natural talent for the arts is making her foolhardy at this point. You see it start all the way back in Season 2, with the re-ensoulening of Angel. She likes the power of it, but tells herself she's just eager to learn.

[–]RTSchemel 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

She also didn't really let anyone know the full scope of the risk they were taking when they began the ritual. Remember Xander's questions after they have to escape from the demon biker gang? Also what Spike says when they make it back to the house. "Willow knew there was a chance she could have come back wrong."

She didn't tell anyone these things, or about that pure spirit fawn she murdered to work the ritual. I still don't understand how she convinced Tara to go along with it, since Tara had already made her feelings about that kind of thing known after Joyce died and Tara isn't a layperson in magic like Xander. Willow may not have really grasped the risks she was taking because of her arrogance about her power but it didn't seem like the others had any clue what they were in for. That always stood out to me as a warning sign of Willow's power leading her to disregard others because she can so often bend things to her will. Or because they don't know what she does so what Willow wants is always the right thing.

[–]Cielle 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or because they don't know what she does so what Willow wants is always the right thing.

Or because they thought Buffy was trapped in hell and decided any risks were worthwhile to help their friend, maybe?

[–]RTSchemel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe, but they didn't really look into where she was or could be. (You mean to tell me none of them own a ouija board?!) I've always thought it was funny that they thought someone as good, and pure and selfless as Buffy would be in hell.

[–]Cielle -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

So, what Giles is trying to impress on her (in a rather ineffective way, I agree) is that she doesn't know everything, which we see her take to heart in season 7. Her teenage arrogance and natural talent for the arts is making her foolhardy at this point. You see it start all the way back in Season 2, with the re-ensoulening of Angel. She likes the power of it, but tells herself she's just eager to learn.

We also see his lessons in restraint nearly get everyone killed several times. Remember when Dawn's wish got them all trapped and they needed Willow's illicit stash? Or Willow saving Buffy after she was shot? Or just about all of season 7's struggles against the First, right up until the very end when someone finally pushed Willow to empower all the Potentials?

[–]TinMan2256 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

To reply to your particular examples: Dawn is not Willow. Her making that wish was evident of her character sort of rehashing the same point from a different individual. Also, Dawn was manipulated by Halfrek into making that wish. That wasn't so much her not having restraint as being taken in by a demon, which isn't really her fault. Willow's stash, on the other hand, actually shows the beginning of what she demonstrates later - struggling to find the right balance. She kept it because she couldn't let go completely, but note that Tara commended her on not using it before taking what was left away. True, maybe they would have been in more trouble had she not kept what she did, but there were other more difficult ways out of that. It's difficult to argue hypotheticals.

Willow saving Buffy - this was an example of Willow understanding the risks and taking them for a good reason. Thus, restraint was smart, but unnecessary, since she was saving the Slayer.

As for not empowering the Potentials before they did - I'd argue this is more of a lack of inspirtation than anything else. I doubt anyone even had this idea before Buffy did. Keep in mind that even doing the spell required Willow to tap into the Sycthe's magic. That is, she had to use even more power than she readily had available just to do it. Also keep in mind that she was very frightened to do it, and took the precaution of having Kennedy right there to kill her should she go all Dark Willow.

In essence what you're citing are times when calculated risk was taken. Willow didn't perform the spell to release the wish, Tara did, because Willow recognized she would be too tempted. She saved Buffy because Buffy needed to be saved - she was Dark Willow when this happened, but I imagine regular Willow would have done the same, if she felt confident enough. And the empowering was a last ditch, hail mary thing that they weren't even sure it would work. So they took precautions to minimize risk as best they could.

tl;dr- your examples are good, but not the same situation. In your examples, they were taking a calculated risk. When rezzing Buffy, Willow jumped in all but blindly, and didn't seem to take any precautions when dealing with the powerful magicks she was working. Also, she did so off the assumption that Buffy was trapped in some sort of hell dimension, which we all know was not true, not that Giles knows that at the time.

[–]Cielle -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's difficult to argue hypotheticals.

Doesn't seem to be stopping you when regarding the resurrection ritual.

[–]Broken_Sky 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

He wasn't out of line really, he was scared. Scared for her, scared for what she might have bought back, scared for the world. He has seen her potential and it frightened him. He was over harsh but he was also reacting in a base human way

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[–]hrb_ninja 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Giles could have easily become a John Constantine type character if he wasn't so uptight.

[–]ummmwhut 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This entire post just reminds me how sad I am that the "Ripper" spin-off was never made.