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[–]krizo2007 White GTI -9ポイント-8ポイント  (34子コメント)

and rightly so. They were completely deceptive in their emissions testing practices. It was literally criminal.

I love Volkswagen as much everybody here, but what they did deserves huge punishment, and everybody here needs to advocate for a just punishment because that is what keeps companies inline and their product quality high.

*Edit: Come on, guys. I feel like a part of helping VW survive this is to acknowledge that what they did was severely wrong and they should be held accountable. Not down-voting somebody like me who's simply pointing out the obvious.

[–]MadMaxMercer 25ポイント26ポイント  (31子コメント)

Really? Criminal negligence that directly lead to people dying is worth less of a punishment than tuning cars to get better mpg/performance? How many families suffered because a small diesel car got better gas mileage and consumed less fuel in the process? They tuned the car to burn at a hotter cycle, it reduces many other harmful emissions at the same time. What do you think tuning gas cars does to the emission output? Yet no one has a problem when the consumer does the same thing to increase their performance. There is no reason why the EPA should even entertain the idea of fining a company over 50% of their total value for violating regional emission standards when there are hundreds of tuning shops out their that do it daily.

[–]mikeincolumbus 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Unfortunately for Volkswagen, they chose to break a law that already has pretty clear-cut penalties built in and can be applied regardless of proving intent by the EPA. They gambled for a few years, risking the fine in search of higher sales and ended up losing.

I doubt they'll go out of business, but even with a small risk they have to disclose to investors.

[–]MadMaxMercer 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I absolutely believe they should be punished but government bleeding them dry isn't the answer. Where do you think that money will go? The EPA released millions of gallons of mining chemicals into a national park's water system this year and did nothing about it, I have zero faith in their concern for the environment over profiting from regulations they create.

[–]mikeincolumbus 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think they should bleed them dry either. The problem for the EPA/Feds is that the penalties are well defined and there is no question that they broke the law. The fines are set specifically as a deterrent and they are set outrageously high to make certain that the aren't taken into a cost-benefit analysis (aka "It's cheaper to pay than comply.")

My guess/hope is that they'll negotiate the fines down considerably, but part of that is going to be a requirement to fix all or a significant number of the vehicles affected, which I imagine is going to be more costly than the fines.

[–]MadMaxMercer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It'll be a simple ECU flash on each car that will put it back into standards while also reducing performance. Pay a fine, flash the cars, and reimburse the consumers who lose value on their cars.

[–]krizo2007 White GTI 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

tuning cars to get better mpg/performance?

Either you're completely misunderstanding what VW did or you're whitewashing the issue.

How many families suffered because a small diesel car got better gas mileage and consumed less fuel in the process?

White washing again. The vehicles were emitting 40 times the nitrogen oxide than what is allowed in the US. 40 times.

What do you think tuning gas cars does to the emission output? Yet no one has a problem when the consumer does the same thing to increase their performance.

You're correct. Mostly everybody doesn't have a problem with it. You want to know why? Cause it's not being done in a massively organized manner like how VW did it. 11 million cars by one estimate. Also, consumers aren't exactly lying about their tuning. It's not like they have to either. We're talking about corporate regulations that were being violated. Not consumer.

[–]MadMaxMercer 6ポイント7ポイント  (12子コメント)

I work in emissions, I know exactly what happened. Ignition cycles were tuned to burn hotter thus giving better performance, higher mpg, and higher nox levels. Cooler cycles produce lower power, higher soot, and lower nox. If you are truly concerned with nox levels you should be worried that the 10 largest cargo ships that cruise international waters burn fuel oil and produce yearly emissions that are equivalent to millions of cars without regulation, they have a far higher impact than the tdi's emissions. I'm not encouraging higher pollution rates but they certainly didn't cause global warming single handedly. What effect did this have on the average person? You say I'm whitewashing but I've done no such thing, you're overreacting and pretending that corporate sanctioned tuning is killing innocent people? Go scold the tuning subreddits since they are doing THE EXACT SAME THING AS VW DID. Tell them to think of the children before they boost their performance.

[–]krizo2007 White GTI -2ポイント-1ポイント  (11子コメント)

but they certainly didn't cause global warming single handedly.

Nobody's saying that.

10 largest cargo ships that cruise international waters burn fuel oil and produce yearly emissions that are equivalent to millions of cars without regulation

Well if there were regulations on those ships and the companies running those ships rigged them to give out false data, then I expect government action to punish them.

What effect did this have on the average person?

11 million cars giving out 40 times the regulated pollutants into the air over the course of about 7 years. I would say it's quite significant. But putting that point aside, the root of the discussion here is that VW purposely violated laws in the most intentional ways. When you break laws you get punished. That's how laws work. We can argue about the validity of the law till we're blue in the fingers, but that doesn't address the fact that VW broke the law over the past 7 years. I'm going to repeat that in bold to get my point across.

VW violated the law for the past 7 years

Go scold the tuning subreddits since they are doing THE EXACT SAME THING AS VW DID. Tell them to think of the children before they boost their performance.

Again, we're talking about a corporation violating corporate regulations it was required to follow. How are you getting corporation and consumer confused?

[–]alxq 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think you don't understand how much fuel cargo ships go through, and how dirty they are.

Since you aren't really stating facts, I didn't do that much work looking for sources but here you go for a start: http://www.gizmag.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

[–]MadMaxMercer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seriously, I have no idea why people pretend to give a shit about tdi pollution and ignore shipping vessels.

[–]notwhoithink -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

So you think that because there are vehicles in the world that are more polluting than automobiles that we shouldn't care about automobile emissions? Or are you saying that we shouldn't care about companies deliberately violating emissions regulations because there are other unregulated avenues of pollution? I honestly don't know what argument you are trying to make, but it feels like a massive red herring.

As a Chinese proverb once is alleged to have said, "No single drop of rain ever believes that it is responsible for the flood." No single vehicle is ultimately responsible for all of the pollution in the world. No ten vehicles (even cargo ships) are responsible for all of the pollution in the world. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't make efforts to improve those things that we actually do have control over.

And here's a question for you: how old are you? Do you remember the late 1960s through the early 1980s when major cities were covered in smog, and acid rain was a huge environmental problem? I do, but a lot of people alive today are too young to remember those days, and the reason for that is that the clean air act has dramatically increased the air quality over major cities over the past few decades. Anyone old enough to remember what things used to be like knows that it works.

While we're at it, the issue with the VWs is the elevated NOx emissions. NOx leads to smog over major metro areas an asthma. Huge, ocean-going cargo ships aren't pumping out those emissions in major cities, or in populated areas at all.

[–]alxq -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Huge, ocean-going cargo ships aren't pumping out those emissions in major cities, or in populated areas at all.

uhh there's a reason it's referred to as global warming (or global climate change).

I'm not saying the VW thing is acceptable, I'm saying if what you really care about is pollution it's not that big of a deal.

[–]notwhoithink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

uhh there's a reason it's referred to as global warming (or global climate change).

Uhh... no. We're talking about NOx emissions, which do not contribute to global climate change. It's not a greenhouse gas. NOx does, however, lead to smog and asthma. Do please try to keep up, I did explain that fact in the first two sentences of the paragraph that you selectively quoted.

[–]MadMaxMercer 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

So you're ok with individual people tuning their cars but you take issue with corporations doing it? Semantics. I never said it was ok for VW to do this, however there is zero reason a foreign car company should be punished with a fine equal to over half their total value. Nox levels have increased ten percent in the last 30 years despite nearly doubling the number of drivers on the road, it would seem that it isn't as large an issue as you'd think.

[–]krizo2007 White GTI 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

So you're ok with individual people tuning their cars but you take issue with corporations doing it?

Never said that. That's beyond the subject of this discussion.

there is zero reason a foreign car company should be punished with a fine equal to over half their total value.

Let's be real here. The punishment is probably not going to be that much. The articles are being sensational. They do deserve a severe punishment.

Nox levels have increased ten percent in the last 30 years despite nearly doubling the number of drivers on the road, it would seem that it isn't as large an issue as you'd think.

Gee, I wonder why that is. It's almost as if there's some controlling entity that is able to regulate how much cars from car manufacturers can emit.

[–]MadMaxMercer 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It just shows how little effect VW had on air quality, a fraction of a fraction of a percent. You already said that corporations shouldn't tune yet you accept that consumers do, that's extremely hypocritical.

[–]krizo2007 White GTI 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You already said that corporations shouldn't tune yet you accept that consumers do, that's extremely hypocritical.

putting words in my mouth again. At the consumer level, it depends on whatever state/city/country emission standards their cars have to meet. I have to get my GTI tested once a year here in California and I abide by those laws. That's not the topic of discussion here. I never said I'm ok with consumer tuning cause it's really a case-by-case basis that needs to be reviewed. That's just the nature of consumer behavior.

We're talking about a law in multiple countries that was willfully and systematically violated here. That's pretty severe and VW should not get slap on the wrist for it.

Comparing that to consumer tuning is apples and oranges.

[–]notwhoithink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about me, I don't accept all consumer tuning. Getting your car chipped? Probably OK. DPF delete? Federal crime. EGR delete? Federal crime. Anyone caught doing that should be fined, and in fact there is a portion of the same laws that VW got caught breaking that address individuals involved in doing exactly that. The problem is that it is extremely unlikely that anyone is ever going to get caught modding or tuning their own personal vehicle, unless they have to regularly get tested for registration.

[–]notwhoithink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never said it was ok for VW to do this, however there is zero reason a foreign car company should be punished with a fine equal to over half their total value.

  1. They haven't been fined yet. They are facing potential fines of up to $18 billion dollars. The penalty is up to $37,500 per vehicle. The fines are so ridiculously high so as to act as a deterrent against companies doing what VW did and deliberately cheating the regulations.

  2. The fines were not equal to "half of their total value" until after the scandal broke. They had a market cap of nearly $90 billion until they got caught breaking the law and were facing billions of dollars in fines and legal settlements.

  3. VW knew what the potential penalty was and chose to break the law anyway. Why should they be given leniency on this matter? It's like a mother telling their six year old that if they hit their baby sister then they'll have to go in timeout, then the six year old crying because the mother had the gall to actually put them into time out for doing what they knew they were not allowed to do. Everyone knows the rules, everyone is supposed to follow the rules. Nobody was forcing VW to make diesels, or to make diesels that cheated on emissions testing. They chose to manufacture diesels, and they chose to program them to cheat on emissions testing. Now they have to pay the price for those choices.

[–]Supaflygti 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you realize that in 2007 these cars didn't even have a DPF? That wasn't that long ago...imagine the emissions level then. It blows my mind that people are riding this 40x more quantity to the end of earth and back when there are so many other forms of far more detrimental pollution sources. Get over it

[–]krizo2007 White GTI 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Question the regulation/law all you want. It doesn't beat the fact that VW willfully broke the law and deceived many people.

Why are people so unwilling to hold VW accountable for this?

[–]notwhoithink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you realize that in 2007 these cars didn't even have a DPF? That wasn't that long ago...

Yes, and those cars were legal then as well. In the 1970s airbags weren't required in cars, now they are. In the 1940s seatbelts were not required in cars, now they are. Laws change over time as we learn more.

[–]Supaflygti 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seriously can't stand people like you and you're pompous attitude.

[–]krizo2007 White GTI -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Awwhhh :(

And your opinion matters so much to me. I'm sorry. Forgive me?