全 92 件のコメント

[–]encisera 129ポイント130ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't like to compare women too much

Sure, which is why you wrote a long post comparing (your perception of) American women to French women and explaining why you think American women are inferior, "weird," "unnatural," "pretty tacky," "very insecure," "hypocritical"...

[–]kanicot 44ポイント45ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, op came off really judgmental.

[–]lavender-fields 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's too bad because this had the potential to be an interesting discussion topic.

[–]Moonstone-star 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention ugly.

[–]spicychampredux 120ポイント121ポイント  (18子コメント)

I can't communicate seriously with someone who uses the terms "shit body" and "butterface" to describe other women. I think you have a lot of issues to work out before you can accept that cultural differences just exist and other women like themselves and like makeup.

Also I wear natural-looking full face almost every day but most women just wear mascara and maybe some light lipstick or blush. MUA doesn't represent all of the US.

[–]sea-weedฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ 43ポイント44ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't agree with a lot of the things you've said but that's okay. Opinions can differ and I think it's an interesting discussion to have.

France has a very definitive look, mostly natural beauty with an emphasis on health. Healthy skin, healthy hair, etc. Different countries and cultures have their local signature looks and when I think of Paris it's very much as you've described.

I can only speak for myself but these are some of the reasons I wear makeup that doesn't fit within the "no makeup makeup" category, though I do like that too!

  • Some of it is corrective, yes. I'm fine with my dark circles, occasional acne, and uneven skin tone and have no problem walking around barefaced. But if I feel like wearing makeup, why not cover those things and add a bit of blush and highlight? Same with contouring.

  • The application techniques and placements are skills that I've learned and I enjoy putting them into practice. Do I need to contour my nose? Of course not, but if I have an extra minute and fancy having a go...

  • I collect all these products and tools and using them really is a lot of fun. It's also a nicely relaxing ritual to start a day with.

  • Self expression! Purple lips can express or change my mood. Certain eyeshadow looks can say "This is who I am today." I'm that person anyway so why not show it in a fun way?

  • Confidence is part of it. I'm plenty confident without makeup but wearing it gives a different kind of self assuredness. I wouldn't crawl into a corner and die without concealer and a red lip but wearing them can make me feel a little more powerful.

I'm actually not trying to change your mind with all of this because you're entitled to your opinion and can stick to it if you want to. Just sharing my own thoughts!

[–]tkjoy 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

The culture thing is spot on. I'm Persian and even the most bold looks on MUA would be a regular "brunch" look for Persian women haha. It all depends on what you're used to seeing but either way, it doesn't matter what someone chooses to put on their face.

[–]monstersof-men 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Indian here. I wear a toned down look when I wear a full-face compared to some of my Indian compatriots.

[–]tkjoy 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

When I see "wedding makeup" on MUA and it's like a bit of eyeshadow and nude lips and the comments still say that it's a bit much for a wedding. I'm like have you seen our brides? It's like if you can't see their makeup from the moon are they even getting married???

[–]nixedreamer 40ポイント41ポイント  (0子コメント)

This just reads like a rant about you're upset with how other people choose to live their lives and make choices concerning their appearance.

I love the transformative nature of makeup, I find it so interesting and fun. Different combinations of makeup, clothing, and hair will turn me into a different person to match the personality of how I feel that day. I find that so interesting and it's something I love to experiment with.

I also find makeup enjoyable to apply. If I'm feeling stressed, I might spend longer on my makeup and wear more of it because the actual act of applying makeup is really calming to me.

Your natural face and your natural body is not a reflection of who you are, they are features you were born with. Makeup, fashion, hair, body mods, plastic surgery, these are all things we can do to our body to customize it to fit our own personality and how we view ourselves. I don't have issue with my naked face, but the days I wear makeup are the days I am feeling the self love, because it's a way of showcasing myself (not just my appearance, but my personality THROUGH my appearance, which is even more important).

And yes, there are people who wear makeup because they're self conscious about their features. Instead of shaming them, tearing them down and making them feel worse and even more strongly about hiding features, we should be encouraging them and putting forward positivity so that they can eventually become more confident within themselves.

[–]jan_in_the_pan_ 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is that you, Ms. Mercier?

[–]Brompton_CocktailNC42 52ポイント53ポイント  (0子コメント)

You sound as if bashing what other people do seems to give you confidence. Why critisize what others are doing if it doesnt affect you? I can tell you that "people who change their faces drastically" may have reasons for doing so. Perhaps they have hormonal acne from a condition that is out of their control and despite taking medication want to feel confident in themselves so they turn to makeup to conceal it. Thats not to say they shouldnt or cant go outside not wearing concealer/foundation but thats the point: its THEIR choice. Maybe they have deeper skin and want to even out their complexion or conceal their hyperpigmentation. Are they concealing themselves from the world or putting their best foot forward?

Lastly, the niqab and hijab issue is one you are so wrong about. backstory: I was once muslim and I am now an atheist. The hijab is far from a fashion choice. Its a personal choice a woman has whether or not she is to wear the hijab. Also, its a different culture from yours entirely. it's more socially acceptable in those countries to dress that way. They would think the same of the nudist movements in France. it's a difference in culture, upbringing and thinking. You said you were 16 so I can understand that your view of the world is still developing. Being from france though and at what was once the center of enlightenment, I would think that you would understand that people are in control of their own faces and bodies and dont seek to do it to please others.

[–]crayolasand 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject - while I was getting my BA I did an ethnography that involved concepts of beauty within a particular community on campus. Because I have many thoughts, hopefully my post won't come off too disjointed or scrambled. For the sake of ease, I will be generalizing in my post - obviously, neither you nor myself can speak for all people of our respective countries when it comes to the hows or whys of makeup choices.

I'll start with the first half of your post, where you believe (American? MUA is hardly American-exclusive, but my post will be from an US perspective, so for the sake of conversation I'll base it off an American VS French) faces overdone, I could claim that French faces are underdone and make assumptions based off that idea; if I took the same approach as you, I could come to the conclusion that, based off your description, French women make boring, mundane, plain makeup choices.

But that, obviously, wouldn't be a fair or accurate conclusion. If I made that assumption, I would be ignoring a whole slew of other variables that effect the makeup decisions French women make. General values, societal exceptions, cultural standards of beauty, French trends, and many more.

I don't expect OP or anyone else to know all these things when speaking in generalizations regarding the makeup of a group of people outside their own, I only believe that these variables should always be considered when comparing and contrasting the trends of beauty between countries, cultures, (including subcultures), even US states, etc. I feel that, based off your post, you have failed to think about many of these variables before coming to the the conclusions that you have.

Regarding the second part of your post, fashion VS makeup, on the first two points:

  1. There's a lot of comments I could make here regarding clothing, its need and expectations, and how it all ties into culture just like makeup, but instead I will offer you a counter-argument: just as we wear clothes everyday, we present our faces everyday. People see our faces before they see our clothes. Does it not, then, also make sense to also put work - however much work a person wants or deems necessary - into making your face appear how one wishes?

  2. I feel like I could use your own points regarding a person's face being what they display to the world to explain why some people might choose to wear a full face of makeup on a daily basis. If others consider the face more so than the body (and thus, what they're wearing), why do you find it unreasonable that some might choose to wear a full face?

And as far as the hijab, niqab, and burqa -- one of the communities I mentioned above (in fact, my main focus) for my ethnography were an amazing group of American Muslim women. I could write an entirely separate post on this subject alone; that said, if you'd like to discuss hijab, I'd be happy to do so.

TLDR; As others have noted, you are entitled to your opinion, but since you have titled this CMV, I will offer rebuttals to some of your thoughts that stuck out to me. I believe that the assumptions you make as to why a person would choose to wear a full face of makeup lacks consideration of an abundance of variables - I only touched on societal and cultural reasons because of your comparison to the French, but I feel it goes without saying that there are many personal reasons you have failed to consider as well.

[–]Cascadix 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

Hey, bienvenue!

The thing is, like you said, it's a different culture. A lot of people wear makeup because a lot of other people wear makeup; it's just something a bunch of people do, just like it's not a thing people do much in France. A French woman who does up her whole face might be insecure/blemished, but an American woman (which most of the MUA posters are) doesn't have that context around her as strongly. An American woman is generally going to aim for the American standard for beauty/creative expression, whereas a French woman is aiming for the French standard of beauty/creative expression.

Every woman will have her own reason for wearing or not wearing makeup, and I think they're all valid. One woman might have scars that she finds unsightly, another might be more for the "face art" stuff, while another is trying to fit in, another trying to find her personal style. Or any combination, or other reasons. Makeup is a lot, but not exactly, like fashion, where most people will be following trends, because that's how people are.

I guess, as a comparison... okay, the legal age to drink in France is 18, and most people let their teens drink wine on occasion. That usually seems totally irresponsible to a typical American, because the drinking age is 21, and drinking is only for adults. Typical Americans might think that French people are letting their children get drunk on a regular basis, but that's just what it seems like in comparison to American culture. Whereas a French person might think Americans are uptight and afraid of alcohol, which isn't true either. It's simply different cultural contexts.

[–]divastating 33ポイント34ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think you're thinking about it too hard. Some girls like to smear pretty colors on their face every day because it's fun and they like how it looks. That's really the extent of it... I loved the idea of makeup when I was a little girl and it never really stopped.

Also there are makeup artists that win Oscars for their work on films... those people have to start somewhere! It's a hobby as well as a technical skill, and practice makes perfect. That's why a lot of girls do it every day.

Also I wear a full face: foundation, powder, bronzer, contour, blush, eyeshadow, highlighter etc. every day to work. I'm a biomedical sciences PhD student. Please don't think that all Americans are walking around looking like Kim K, it couldn't be further from the truth lol. I am pretty much the only person in my program of ~100 (1st through 5th+ year PhD students) that wears a full face much less editorial makeup and could fit in with the people on r/MUA.

MUA is just a really intense collection of makeup hobbyists.

[–]feraltarte 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

Please don't think that all Americans are walking around looking like Kim K, it couldn't be further from the truth lol.

Haha seriously. It still catches my eye when I see someone wearing a bold lipstick or a lot of eyeshadow walking down the street on a weekday because it's not the norm at all.

I was at a pretty swanky jazz bar the other day and I was the only one at my table of 6 women wearing makeup, and I only saw one other woman in the whole place wearing red lipstick (we were both wearing Ruby Woo and I got all excited and complimented her in the bathroom).

[–]divastating 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

HAHA aweee I love those moments. I had a girl in my lab (a new tech) call out that I was wearing Champagne Pop (seriously!!!!) and say that she had it too. I got so excited. She keeps her makeup really simple at work but has an interest in it too!

[–]feraltarte 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was telling my boyfriend the other day how excited I get when I recognize what makeup someone is wearing. It's like a neat little secret society. Makeup can be a great social icebreaker.

She doesn't even wear makeup ever since she's fairly butch, but I asked my bff of 22 years why she decided to sit next to me on her first day at school and she was like "you had cool eyeliner!"

[–]SmokeMyBlunt 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's just cultural differences! We are products of our environments, including our cultures. Your culture doesn't accept as much makeup as the predominantly North American culture of mua, and some of your comments about full faces could be considered "makeup shaming" in other relatively makeup accepting cultures.

Cultural differences and their origins are a very interesting topic! But I think you have to approach them from the view of trying to appreciate other cultures even if they don't fit with any of your own ideals, rather than justifying why a culture is "wrong" (all your reasons that makeup isn't comparable to fashion, skincare, etc.)

I'm sure there a number of things you have in your closet that my friends would laugh at me for wearing here! Just like your friends might think your makeup is overdone and garish if it looked like mine. We can't necessarily change our views to completely agree with the other culture, because we are still immersed in (and evaluated relative to) our own, but we can at least appreciate that it's appreciated by someone else!

[–]hardwiredfae 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

2 things, i think. the first is that, except maybe in very big cities, someone wearing instagram / r/mua makeup every day is very rare, and also looks very different in person than in photos. the second is that over here, a certain amount of makeup is considered to be part of a professional look, or almost part of a uniform, for many workplaces. it's not so much that full coverage foundation and lots of makeup is considered necessary for bad skin, but that a noticeable lack of it is unprofessional for a lot of office jobs.

of course there is a lot of emphasis placed on makeup and skincare as being part of the same thing in advertising, and makeup trends and fashion trends are basically the same here also. and i think an interesting effect of that is that regardless of how your skin actually is, wearing a full face makes a lot of people more comfortable just because of the connotations / ritual aspect.

tl;dr fashion culture, office / business professionalism, and the basic purpose of makeup and skincare are different in the US/canada and in france, and a lot of your confusion seems to come from the fact that a lot of culture is taken for granted and not stated explicitly unless someone, like you, straight up asks

[–]Syc4more 69ポイント70ポイント  (8子コメント)

Why don't u focus on you instead of people wearing full faces daily? Like they don't concern u b, if we ain't fuckin u ain't nothin.

[–]NorthernDownpour 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm French and wtf did I just read ?

[–]eisenkatzeolive beige princess with second-world eyelids 21ポイント22ポイント  (23子コメント)

I have some of the same thoughts as you but I would stop short of criticizing individual decisions to change one's given face rather than a culture of forming expectations of women. It's somewhat empowering to sculpt your own face according to your wishes and personality, rather than be defined by two random people who decided to fuck and combined their genetics into you. I'm uncomfortable with artificial, unattainable ideals though.

I'm kinda interested to see the streets in the USA in general, over in Lithuania makeup is also more understated and I just wonder if people really wear so much stuff outside!

[–]sea-weedฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's somewhat empowering to sculpt your own face according to your wishes and personality, rather than be defined by two random people who decided to fuck and combined their genetics into you.

This is perfect.

I don't see many MUA/IG-ish looks on the streets in the UK either. Mostly natural looks or heavy bronzer with bold brows.

[–]eisenkatzeolive beige princess with second-world eyelids 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll see contour/bronzer/BROWZ if I happen upon a more "mainstream" party, bold lips and brows where more hip people hang out at night and a lot of dippie action on schoolgirls, but I really can't remember the last time I saw anyone wearing any visible eyeshadow. Maybe at an anime convention years ago, otherwise I don't even remember what colorful lids look like on someone besides myself. Maybe I forget to look? I've heard that there's more creativity going on in the UK though I've never been to confirm.

[–]sea-weedฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do see some creative looks and am always really happy when I do. One of the women who works at my bank (of all places) regularly wears unconventional lip colours and we bonded when we both wore MAC Cyber on the same day.

I see a lot of heavy black liner around with red or black lips. Lips are probably where I see the most variety, actually. I work with creative types so I probably see a concentrated subsection of makeup wearers because for the general population it seems to be the natural look or that bronzer situation.

[–]divastating 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think I've ever seen a full instagram look on the streets. Maybe a couple times in Sephora on SAs but even they are usually quite a bit chiller than that! MUA is not a representative sample of anybody in the US lol. Maybe in like California/NY in certain circles but certainly not anywhere in the suburbs or even college towns. Most girls wear some base if their skin is spotty, mascara, maybe some eyeliner or eyeshadow smudged in the lashline.

[–]feraltarte 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think MUA/instagram might give a skewed impression of what's normal for women in the U.S. it's not that those looks are completely unseen, but definitely not the norm, I think showing off a dramatic face on social media is more popular than going all out in public.

I think somewhat heavier makeup is more common in the U.S. than it is in some other countries, but it's not nearly as dramatic as you'd guess if you're basing it on stuff you see on the internet.

Personally I very rarely wear makeup out beside from the occasional bb cream and tinted chapstick, I usually only wear noticeable makeup once on the weekend or so, but if you looked in my makeup photo folder you'd think I was wearing dramatic stuff all the time, when really I only wear stuff like that to parties or while I'm playing around at home.

[–]Xiaosheng 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even though I don't really agree with 90% of what you said, I do feel the same on a couple things on a personal level. For one thing, I don't think that a full face of makeup is necessary for everyday living. However, I'm just one person and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of reasons that other ladies might need or want that look. I don't really think that American women have a corner on this market, by the way. I'm American, but I've seen a lot of foreign women with just as much makeup on as any other woman, some of them were French. I don't think we can paint any one nationality with the broad brush of too much makeup.

I also believe that natural makeup just looks better on about 75% of women, but that's a personal opinion and I can't really judge a person's character or motives for not agreeing with me on it.

At the end of the day, everyone is free to do as they please, and they deserve to feel proud of themselves and the way they look.

[–]eggboys 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who are you to define meaning in what others do for themselves? Where exactly is the line between "personal expression" and what qualifies as "art"?

It is absolutely natural to change one's appearance to be perceived differently. Animals do it, insects do it, plants do it.

Skincare is complex chemistry designed to change what your skin is doing on it's own. You are changing what you have to be happier with your appearance. It's very similar to makeup in that regard. Some skincare can have quite drastic effects on skin. It is also used to create uniformity in how people look. Would you not look more unique if your face had much more variety in color and texture from not treating skin issues?

Your skin itself is a mask. It's there to keep the environment out and your guts in. Who you are is influenced by but also hidden behind your body. Have you read MUA long enough to see the tons of posts by women who desire to wear more makeup but are afraid to do it in public? If these women wanted to blend in and go unnoticed, they would not wear a full face, like you. It is a way to conform to what others want you to be. I could make the argument that instead of being insecure by wearing a full face, these women are actually quite brave and confident. They know they will be judged, and they do what makes them happy. This of course is not the case for everyone who wears a full face, but for many of the people on MUA, I think it is. In refusing to pluck your eyebrows you might look very tacky to some, but you share what these tacky full faced women also believe. They are going to do what makes them happy with their appearance, regardless of what others tell them.

I agree that we need clothing however the second you choose a clothing item because of how it looks vs how it protects you from the elements it loses the utilitarian label. Not to mention that the ancient Egyptians used cosmetics as a way to fight off eye infections and sickness. It improved their health and helped protect them from the environment, like clothing.

I think you will find many Americans would rather you think we are tacky than give up our personal expression. I also think you will find that making things black and white will often limit your understanding of others. You've decided who these people are just based on looking at them. That alone makes you seem short-sighted and shallow.

Why should anyone have to look the way you want them to? If you wouldn't pluck your eyebrows for others then why desire other people to change? For many putting on makeup and getting dressed is not an art, for some it is. For most people writing is not an art but a part of life, would you use that as reason to belittle the work that artistic writers do? Do you sit and complain on writing reddits about all the people who use LOL and IDK and CMV because of the lack of personality and uniqueness? Online, writing is a mask and many people are hard to tell apart. That doesn't stop us from having meaningful and diverse conversations, makeup won't stop us from being meaningful and diverse people.

TL;DR I think you judge the way others look too harshly.

[–]N4U534 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Personally, I really don't look that much different with makeup than I do without. I usually like the way I look so I don't use makeup as a way to change my face.

[–]Alsterwasser 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/mua does not reflect what people wear in RL. At all. Especially the front page. People prefer to see inspirational and creative, or at least very skillful looks, and I've seen comments that "no makeup makeup" looks aren't much different from selfies, that's why people post and upvote looks where you see how much work went into it. I'm pretty sure half of the more colorful looks aren't even worn out on the street.

Also, there's a reason the classic French look with the clear skin, a bit of eyeliner and red lips is French. It's just what looks best on classic "gamine" faces with a small chin, big eyes and dark lashes. The same look on my German&Slavic features doesn't look sophisticated at all. There's a reason why Persian women use lots of black khol and Asians don't, etc.

[–]shapkaushanka -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Se maquillée comme une voiture volée comme on dit...

Tête de chien aussi là, c'est vrai que j'en porte pas bcp mais ça me choque pas si je vois des filles très maquillées quoi!

[–]augustelantier[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ça me choque pas non plus et parfois c'est très bien fait, j'ai exagéré dans mon post mais visiblement c'est pas bien passé ici. Faut pas que j'essaye d'avoir des conversations en anglais ou je maîtrise pas bien le sujet, après je m'emporte un peu et ça se barre en couille.

[–]TheBraveNewGirl -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Tu montres bien pourquoi tout le monde déteste les Français et les Parisiens en particulier. Good job.

[–]akingwithnocrownayy lmao[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, not really. You shouldn't let someone's opinion ruin how you see French people. :)