18
19

Destiny's titular character is transgender (although you're forgiven if that's a surprise) (polygon.com)

The_Iceman2288feminist gazpacho が 投稿

全 72 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

Okay, I know very little about this lore, so maybe I'm reaching here, but I think it's fair to read a character as trans if the character in question is sentient and is part of human-like society (i.e. one which features gender pronouns, which seems to be the case), since gender is a social and mental thing, rather than a physical. Even if their physiology is completely different from humans', if they have a concept of gender, then it's reasonable to draw a comparison to the way gender works in our society.

[–]GottaLoveIgnoranceAnecdotally Circumstantial 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That and the fact that the society upon which the Hive is based was written by a person in human society, so even if they went in a more alien direction, it still has aspects of thought from a human perspective, making the reading as trans even more valid (plus, Laura is trans, so if she read it as that, I'll trust her judgement).

[–]Alilzabub 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

But is it meaningful? What can we take away from it?

Cause, as far as I can see from my very limited knowledge, being trans means being some evil giant alien monster.

Representation doesn't mean shit if it doesn't actually teach anything, or worse, teaches something bad.

As far as the character being a representation of trans people, is it? I mean, what shared experiences do I have with this thing? How is it, in any way, relatable to me outside of trying to reduce me to a single part of my life and then having even that part be radically different than anything I've experienced?

[–]Ellie_DoodlesThe Golden Bag of Ethics Flavored Doritos 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Representation doesn't mean shit if it doesn't actually teach anything

I don't think you really have to teach anything to have good representation. It's more about making sure that the character is visible and isn't perpetuating bad stereotypes.

Unfortunately this character's transgender status is pretty hidden away, and it's not a featured part of his character. You could say this is a good or bad thing, and there's certainly great arguments for both sides, but it feels a little more like Rowling revealing that Dumbledore is gay after being randomly asked about it one time instead of having his homosexuality a part of his character in the books.

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hey, representation is representation! Even if Oryx isn't some groundbreaking amazing character, he's still trans. His being trans doesn't play into anything harmful, as far as I know. It would be nice to have trans heroes, I definitely get that, but I'll settle for villains, any characters, really, as long as they're not negative, harmful portrayals.

[–]Alilzabub 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

An evil character with cruel, selfish motives isn't a harmful portrayal?

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No . . . The kind of villain Oryx is, it's not like the queer coding you see in Disney stuff, and his being transgender is not central to or portrayed as his motivation. He's just a villain who happens to be trans. It doesn't reinforce harmful ideas. No one really believes that trans men are winged god king boss monsters.

[–]MrJoobJoob 13ポイント14ポイント  (18子コメント)

I think Bungie was just trying to flesh out one of the unique aspects of the Hive -- that they are born genderless female and eventually assume a gender upon maturation. Like it's pretty clear from the Grimoire and from the fact that Oryx has basically no personality other than being evil that Bungie wasn't trying to make a statement or even comment on trans issues.

Edit: female, not genderless at birth

[–]RhaganaDoomslayerSocial Justice Summoner 7ポイント8ポイント  (17子コメント)

Except in this case, the character is stated as being female before the transition.

[–]MrJoobJoob 7ポイント8ポイント  (15子コメント)

Right, all Hive are born female and can morph into male. I just don't see how this relates to actual human trans issues though. I do think it's interesting that the female precursor Aurash is supposed to be inquisitive and knowledgeable, while Oryx is pretty much just evil.

[–]RhaganaDoomslayerSocial Justice Summoner 4ポイント5ポイント  (14子コメント)

Because there was a choice involved. You say they can transition to males, which implies there's a choice. Because what are the usual circumstances for a female hive to change into male? In nature, there's usually an event that forces gender change in certain species.

But here, since we're talking about a sentient being who decided to transition into a male, that denotes agency and choice.

[–]MrJoobJoob 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true. Bungie did seem to word the Grimoire specifically to suggest it was Oryx's choice to become male. But then again he sort of transitioned into an evil monster demon alien thing so I'm not going to hold up his characterization as a pivotal moment for trans issues in gaming.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Literally refers to himself as female before using magic space tech to become a god and deciding to be male. The whole thing is chronicled in the first person.

[–]siebersboy 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

Oryx is not transgendered. Oryx is a sequential hermaphrodite. All of the hive are. They are born female but may change gender based upon the form the take in adult life. Sequential hermaphroditism is a thing that exists in some species, like clownfish

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

*transgender.

[–]Ellie_DoodlesThe Golden Bag of Ethics Flavored Doritos 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm pretty sure sequential hermaphroditism would count as intersex, which is under the "transgender" umbrella term.

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not necessarily. Best to leave it up to the individual, as is usual with these things.

But, being that this is a fictional character, while it could be argued either way, outright insistence that he isn't transgender is silly, and borders on erasure. Would that we could ask him himself.

[–]Alpha_Lance 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm a Destiny lore freak, I've read the book of sorrow (and the rest of the grimoire!) So I would like to chime in.

First off, the book of sorrow is an account of Oryx's rise to power penned by his own hand. It is also translated from "hive" to english. The writer of this grimoire set has stated as such. Because of this, we shouldn't take very specific language within the boom of sorrow very seriously. I only mention this because the genders present within the book may be beyond male and female, or any reasonable conception we have of gender, but characters are referred to this way to fit the English translation.

Second, it is unclear if gender roles have ever existed in hive society, even before their deal with the devil and ascent to the stars. Oryx and his/her sisters all dreamed of very different and diverse roles within their society before their transformations, and biological changes seem to have been inherent to attaining those positions. For instance, one sister is to inherit and become king, one wants to become a brood mother and live longer, and the last dreams of being a knight. At least in the case of motherhood, the book makes a very strong implication of massive overall biological change.

Finally, there is nothing really to indicate that the hive evolved to even have multiple genders.

All of this is to say that the hive may not even recognize gender. It is entirely possible let that Oryx is recognized as a "he" instead of a "she" simply because Oryx took the king morph, and it is an English conceit that kings be male.

Even if this is not so, Oryx can shift and change his/her body according to their own will. So labels of male/female are still meaningless, as Oryx could change his/her body at will.

[–]NamelessTunnelgrubLiteral Monster In Human Skin -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

... I agree with you, but male/female isn't determined by body or meaningless because you can change it. That's some transphobia right there.

[–]Alpha_Lance 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Name calling? Really?

I'm not saying that it renders the gender decision necessarily meaningless, but we are applying human terms and human notions of gender to Oryx. If a being of pure celestial energy chooses to manifest as male in one moment, and female in the next, is "transgender" really an accurate term? Especially if that entity doesn't seem to notice or care, and has no concept of traditional gender roles? In my opinion, it would be unfair to really apply a gender at all to such a being, which is why I bring up the issue of translation and language bias.

[–]NamelessTunnelgrubLiteral Monster In Human Skin -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not "name calling". It's me, a trans woman, being uncomfortable hearing you say that because tying gender to body is literally the root principle and main axiom of transphobia. And the his/her when Oryx is referred to by he pronouns throughout the game and Books Of Sorrow.

It rings alarm bells you develop over a lifetime of having to be hypervigilant for transphobia so you can stay in one piece. Given how eager you are to instantly treat that concern as insulting you and name-calling, despite me saying I agree, I don't really want to continue this. Bye.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

No one is really taking about what the Taken King calls himself or if he considers himself transgender. People are talking about their own person view of him and if they think he is transgender. And if the character's change speaks to them.

[–]GearyDigitMost Charrming Mod 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

By that argument Iran has a lot of transgender people.

[–]wightjiltSchrodinger's Cuck 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Don't they? Not being able to be openly transgender doesn't make them less transgender.

[–]GearyDigitMost Charrming Mod 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm referencing how gay men in Iran are forced to chose between transitioning and execution. So either they pretend to be straight trans women or die gay men.

[–]wightjiltSchrodinger's Cuck 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah. I... Did not know they did something that utterly monstrous over there. My bad.

[–]GearyDigitMost Charrming Mod 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's sorta one of those weird things where a horrible government will accidentally become very tolerant and accepting of one minority in their quest to rid themselves of another.

[–]KitsunelaineBased Hawkgirl 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed.

[–]Transright 3ポイント4ポイント  (35子コメント)

As a trans person this does not seem like a trans man, it seems like she has no choice in her gender changing.

It seem the she made a deal with the devil for power and the devil changed her gender without her consent. To me she was not trans although she might have gender issues now the devil changed her gender without her consent.

I feel the writer of this article has no idea about GID to think someones that didn't choose the gender change makes them trans.

If someone forced a sex change on you does it make you trans, no of course not.

[–]VogonPoetryLoverSocial Justice 1, 2, 3! I wanna be PC! 7ポイント8ポイント  (26子コメント)

I feel the writer of this article has no idea about GID

Not that I'm disagreeing with the rest of what you said, I haven't read the whole article and being cisgender don't feel it's my place to comment anyway, but I did just want to point out that the writer of this article (Laura K) is a transwoman herself.

[–]Transright 1ポイント2ポイント  (25子コメント)

I didn't know that but cannot understand her logic how it makes the character a trans man.

Think of it this way say you are a man and you have cancer, you make a deal with a crazy doctor to cure you but while under he also performs a sex change on you without your consent.

You are not a trans woman. You never wanted to be a woman the doctor forced it on you, you would now probably have gid until you could undo it as much as possible to be a man again.

[–]VogonPoetryLoverSocial Justice 1, 2, 3! I wanna be PC! 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with your position. I wasn't pointing out that she's trans to say she's right or anything, just that it might be a bit insensitive to suggest she has no experience with GID. Like you said though, you didn't know.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

Sci-fi is allegorical at times and things don't fit perfectly. And from my reading, he took the power for the sake of having the power. And that gave him the ability to alter his flesh and at that point he decided to be male.

[–]Transright 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

The devil the parasite changed her gender, she chose the deal for power not to change her gender. There is nothing to say this was her choice to become a male it seems forced on her by the devil/parasite.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

From my understanding all hive have the option to change their gender. This is a crazy space future where they teleport across the galaxy and use black hole filled swords. The Destiny world is crazy and I don't think it would be much of a leap to say that any of the races could change their gender with that level of tech.

[–]unit74 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

"The worm grants you power over your own flesh, Aurash. [...] what will your adult name be?"

"Auryx."

By my interpretation, the character always wanted to express as male, but changed their name first when they had the power to personally alter their own body.

He was given the option to alter his body, and as well as option to change his name. And he chose to present as male, after being gender assigned as female at birth.

I see nothing that suggests that this was forced upon him.

[–]Transright -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sathona, Xi Ro and Aurash all made a proverbial deal with the devil in Destiny, taking part in a symbiotic relationship with a parasitic species to gain massive amounts of power and even immortality for themselves He didn’t just gain power, he changed his gender.

To my reading of the article there is nothing to suggest it was her choice, it was the parasite that changed her gender.

[–]wightjiltSchrodinger's Cuck 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The worm grants you power over your own flesh

You see, that line has a lot of implications. For starters, it really seems like the phrase "Power over your own flesh" implies the gender change was his choice.

[–]unit74 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess it's up to interpretation about who actually made the final choice when it comes to Oryx's gender transition, but here's the original piece of lore I quoted, and the one Laura refers to in her article. The last few sentences seem to detail the moment Oryx decided upon their own gender presentation.

http://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/x-immortals#books-of-sorrow

It's always nice to fall back to the original material.

[–]Ellie_DoodlesThe Golden Bag of Ethics Flavored Doritos 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

I think the logic behind this is that, while there's nothing explicitly saying that this character experienced gender dysphoria, there's also no indication that the sex change is causing dysphoria either. This might indicate that the person, while not the typical FtM transsexual, is still transgender, but just in some other way (non-binary, genderqueer, etc).

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also important to remember that dysphoria is not universal to the trans experience, and that the lack of it does not invalidate a character being trans.

EDIT: And also that "tr*nssexual" is a disfavoured term.

[–]GearyDigitMost Charrming Mod 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

From what I gather, their race starts out as being genderless and assumes one later? That's not really applicable to being transgender.

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, it's pretty analogous. Humans aren't born with gender, they're born with body parts on which their gender is based and assigned to them. Could be the same for the hive. Or, if the hive's concept of gender is completely reduced to physical characteristics, then the change of those characteristics, and therefore gender, would still be analogous to human transition, and the various therapy and surgery some trans people undergo.

[–]Ellie_DoodlesThe Golden Bag of Ethics Flavored Doritos 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I have like, zero knowledge of Destiny lore, and I'm not sure what you mean by "assumes one later" (is that by choice?) but from what I've gathered so far, the character is a female at some point, then becomes a male at some point and apparently doesn't experience dysphoria from their sex change. Seems to be transgender to me.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Book of Sorrows is written by the Taken King and he switches pro-nouns during the course of reading it. Its sort of the big reveal because the whole time you are not aware it was written by the Taken King.

[–]GearyDigitMost Charrming Mod 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm just guessing based of what other peeps are saying. One person said they're like clownfish and are all born biologically female and change sex as needed, so applying human concepts of gender doesn't really super work.

[–]Ellie_DoodlesThe Golden Bag of Ethics Flavored Doritos -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, yes, but even then, he'd be considered intersex, which is still transgender. Besides, I kind of feel like this is a bit of a thermian argument, where the lore of the story is becoming more important than what's actually being presented to the viewer, which is a character that has switched genders. In the end it doesn't really matter why it happened in the internal logic of the game's universe, it just matters that it happened.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess all hive are female to start and can switch if they want. So they have a way to chance to the gender they identify with at some point.

[–]dalnirath 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

For whatever it's worth, as a married hetero cis man with stage 4 cancer in that's spread to his brain and his first baby on the way, I'd make this deal in a heartbeat, and embrace it wholeheartedly if that's what it took.

So, you know.

[–]Transright -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes but you you have the sex change without the cure? The point was she took the parasite for the power not the sex change.

Is it right to call you trans cause you would have a sex change to cure your cancer.

[–]dalnirath 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't, but that's not the hypothetical deal that was presented to me or the character in question.

I've only played the Destiny demo, so I can't speak to the full lore, but it sounds like to the character, and for where I am in my life, there are responsibilities and choices that are more important to us than our gender identity.

If I was given the option to guarantee health, safety, and security for my family, and the tradeoff was that I'd have to embrace my new identity as a woman, then yes, I would do it.

I can completely understand why this sounds foreign to you, and why you would take umbrage at calling my end state a trans woman or the character a trans man. I can only speak to your hypothetical. None of the results would be easy to handle, but making the choice would be quite easy.

edit: I'm gonna have to bow out of the thread now for a bit now, though. Not easy to continue talking about. I'll come back later in the day or tomorrow if you want to continue the chat.

[–]Transright -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can understand why you would take it and am glad you understand you would not be trans at the outcome.

[–]Robjec 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But as you have been told serra times, and even had the original quote shown to you, the choice wasn't forced. He chose it when he was given power over his own body. So nothing was ever forced one him.

[–]friendlyskeletongirllong way ☭left☭ to go 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

No matter how questionable the trans status of a character is, I don't see the harm in letting people have their own interpretations of media, especially when it's something that matters to them. Laura K, as a trans person, is totally within her rights to read the narrative a certain way, whether or not you agree. Plus, I don't play Destiny myself, but it doesn't seem to be the way you describe it.

[–]Transright 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

As a trans person, it confuses the issue of trans people. When Bruce Reimer had a sex change forced on him as child he wasn't a trans women. He was always a man.

If someone has a sex change forced on them it's not a postive thing and makes them trans so we should say look thing are getting better.

The parasite is like the goa'uld in stargate, it decided to change the gender of the host.

[–]Plan6Based Lawyer v2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

From Laura K's reading, the parasite didn't force it on the Taken King. The King willingly took the parasite and decided to change his gender to male.

[–]LIATG 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I haven't read the Book of Sorrow myself, but a couple people who had read it and played the game said that the actual transition part of it was optional

[–]Wizzer10Ex-MRA (no, seriously) 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oryx may have changed biological sex without choice, but his gender identity was definitely down to him. Notice how all the pronouns change in the Books of Sorrow (which is written by Oryx.) He's Oryx, father of Crota.

[–]Cromagnerd 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a trans person this does not seem like a trans man, it seems like she has no choice in her gender changing.

Oryx (Aurash at the time) had a choice, just for the record. She had to choose the male morph on her own.

The 'deal with the devil' was separate.

[–]SamkaiserSocial Justice Dragoon 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So looking at the comments it seems to be another case of "Well actually they're not/can't be trans!" ... Like I kind of wish content creators wouldn't touch anything akin to this stuff til they started to address and make content featuring trans people.

On a side and personal note, anyone else wish that the next few bits of trans characters we see fall under trans women and non binary labels? Like, trans women in games either go with "not actual trans" or some transmisognynistic narrative, while non binary folks are reserved for non humans or they get the leftovers of transphobic stereotypes.. I'd kill for like even a minor trans woman character in really big games like Krem (And I do now about Maevaris, I just have.. issues with the narrative surrounding her).

[–]M_Soothsayer -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I.. hmm.. reading the other comments in this I'm not sure how to take this. arguments can be made for multiple interpretations and while it can be viewed in an allegorical sense.. hmm. Id rather have one of the lore people flat out confirm it.

It is at least a far more convincing article than others in the past. I must admit that when I saw the title I cringed somewhat inside seeing as the last two I've seen along this vein were.. well, were trying to debate their way around canon lore. Which never ends well for anyone.