Pitbull Threads October 5, 2015 7:25 AM Subscribe
So I was under the impression that derailing a thread about pitbull pictures to talk about how awful pitbulls are was off-limits?
From what I remember, shitting up a thread about cute dog pictures with how those dogs are The Worst and Will Definitely Kill You was something that wasn't considered okay and I definitely remember threads going in that direction getting seriously modded or at times deleted. But this one just seems to be going on and on with how bad these dogs inherently are. I know I should FIAMO but I also know we're not supposed to be flagging every second or third comment in a thread and honestly that's what that thread is coming down to.
From what I remember, shitting up a thread about cute dog pictures with how those dogs are The Worst and Will Definitely Kill You was something that wasn't considered okay and I definitely remember threads going in that direction getting seriously modded or at times deleted. But this one just seems to be going on and on with how bad these dogs inherently are. I know I should FIAMO but I also know we're not supposed to be flagging every second or third comment in a thread and honestly that's what that thread is coming down to.
I fall in the "It's the owners, not the breed" camp. But given the photos were created specifically to offset negative stereotypes about the breed (it's part of the artist's statement and everything!), it seems that debate is a natural part of the discussion about the photoset.
posted by schroedinger at 7:29 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
posted by schroedinger at 7:29 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
But the whole point of the thread seems to be not "Look at these cool pictures of pit bulls" but instead "Look how harmless pit bulls are!" And, you can't make that point without people trying to contest it.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:29 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:29 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
When 80% of the thread is people saying 'I know a person who was attacked by a pit bull,' that is neither discussion of the actual FPP nor, really, discussion at all.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:30 AM on October 5 [15 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 7:30 AM on October 5 [15 favorites]
My feeling catching up on it this morning is that it's a trickier setup than just "derailing a thread about pitbull pictures", because it's a post about some pictures framed specifically in the context of the prevailing negative feelings a lot of people have about pitbulls. A driveby on "hey, check out these adorable dog pix" would be a somewhat different setup.
Which: I don't have a great answer there because I do think yet another argument about bad dogs isn't super interesting and I sympathize with folks who really wanted to just sort of have a nice discussion about cute dog pictures. And with a time machine I'd go back and nix that first comment to avoid launching straight into an argument. But I think this is something where folks on either side of that argument are going to be coming at it from pretty strongly personal perspectives that makes it hard to really get away from the fundamental sense of disagreement on the subject.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:31 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
Which: I don't have a great answer there because I do think yet another argument about bad dogs isn't super interesting and I sympathize with folks who really wanted to just sort of have a nice discussion about cute dog pictures. And with a time machine I'd go back and nix that first comment to avoid launching straight into an argument. But I think this is something where folks on either side of that argument are going to be coming at it from pretty strongly personal perspectives that makes it hard to really get away from the fundamental sense of disagreement on the subject.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:31 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
Etrigan is spot on, when an FPP is posed as this one was, and when the site linked to is specifically created to argue a point, discussion on the other side of the opinion is appropriate and not a "derail"
posted by HuronBob at 7:31 AM on October 5 [7 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 7:31 AM on October 5 [7 favorites]
Also let's super 100% not have an additional argument about pitbulls, dog violence, owner complicity, etc etc etc in here as well.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:32 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:32 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
And, you can't make that point without people trying to contest it.
It seems like that's part of the problem, the idea that every point of an FPP is up for long discussions contesting it. It makes it hard to talk about the actual subject of the FPP.
posted by jaguar at 7:32 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
It seems like that's part of the problem, the idea that every point of an FPP is up for long discussions contesting it. It makes it hard to talk about the actual subject of the FPP.
posted by jaguar at 7:32 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
" It makes it hard to talk about the actual subject of the FPP" interesting... what would you consider the "actual subject" of this FPP? Perhaps that's where the difference in perspective is...
posted by HuronBob at 7:33 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 7:33 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
I've definitely seen mod notes of the "This side discussion has run its course, can we move on now?" variety, though. It's not like the only options are delete the first few comments or do nothing.
posted by jaguar at 7:33 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 7:33 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
But the whole point of the thread seems to be not "Look at these cool pictures of pit bulls" but instead "Look how harmless pit bulls are!"
I guess maybe I read it totally differently, because the FPP looks to me to be 'Look at these cool pictures of pit bulls! As an FYI, these pictures were taken in a particular way with a particular inspiration.' Thread: THAT INSPIRATION IS BULLSHIT BECAUSE MY SISTER'S BOYFRIEND GOT GROWLED AT
posted by shakespeherian at 7:34 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
I guess maybe I read it totally differently, because the FPP looks to me to be 'Look at these cool pictures of pit bulls! As an FYI, these pictures were taken in a particular way with a particular inspiration.' Thread: THAT INSPIRATION IS BULLSHIT BECAUSE MY SISTER'S BOYFRIEND GOT GROWLED AT
posted by shakespeherian at 7:34 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
what would you consider the "actual subject" of this FPP?
The link. Which states, "Flower Power is about challenging myself to approach pit bulls with a fresh perspective and an open heart. I invite the viewer to do the same."
posted by jaguar at 7:35 AM on October 5
The link. Which states, "Flower Power is about challenging myself to approach pit bulls with a fresh perspective and an open heart. I invite the viewer to do the same."
posted by jaguar at 7:35 AM on October 5
what would you consider the "actual subject" of this FPP?
The link. Which states, "Flower Power is about challenging myself to approach pit bulls with a fresh perspective and an open heart. I invite the viewer to do the same."
So the subject is also about the negative associations of pit bulls.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
The link. Which states, "Flower Power is about challenging myself to approach pit bulls with a fresh perspective and an open heart. I invite the viewer to do the same."
So the subject is also about the negative associations of pit bulls.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
that thread is an absolute shit show. i was excited for it right up until i read the first comment which is typical shitposting. sorry for late flagging, i didn't realize it had made it to meta.
posted by nadawi at 7:40 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:40 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
I almost wonder about the utility of a "Didn't read the article/Not engaging with the article" flag. It seems like way too many users are treating the front-page text as a discussion prompt and ignoring the actual source material, and it means everyone's just arguing their own opinions rather than trying to learn new things. Which I realize describes the problems of most of society, but still.
posted by jaguar at 7:41 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:41 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
When 80% of the thread is people saying 'I know a person who was attacked by a pit bull,' that is neither discussion of the actual FPP nor, really, discussion at all.
Lot of anecdata about how someone owned a pit bull for 10+ years and it never hurt a fly, too.
Honestly, this was probably the worst metafilter discussion I've read and I've been coming here since 2001, so that is actually a compliment. Just lots of nonsense on both sides, nobody listening, and tons of baseless/useless claims on both sides.
I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it other than to include additional links when posting to the blue. This clearly isn't a subject that can be covered in a single link post-- especially since there's disagreement on what the post is about.
posted by paulcole at 7:41 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
Lot of anecdata about how someone owned a pit bull for 10+ years and it never hurt a fly, too.
Honestly, this was probably the worst metafilter discussion I've read and I've been coming here since 2001, so that is actually a compliment. Just lots of nonsense on both sides, nobody listening, and tons of baseless/useless claims on both sides.
I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it other than to include additional links when posting to the blue. This clearly isn't a subject that can be covered in a single link post-- especially since there's disagreement on what the post is about.
posted by paulcole at 7:41 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
I don't really get how there can be disagreement on what the post is about. There's one link. The link goes to cute photos of dogs.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:43 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 7:43 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
I thought the level of debate was appropriate to the crappy photos. And the anecdata was from both sides.
posted by colie at 7:43 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
posted by colie at 7:43 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
I thought the level of debate was appropriate to the crappy photos. And the anecdata was from both sides.
Okay. Yours is the first comment in the thread, and set the tone for the thread, as it seems a couple people above have noted. It appears you think the photos were crappy. You did not mention this, however; instead, you made a shitty/lazy off-topic comment.
You have only yourself to blame, here, I think.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:46 AM on October 5 [29 favorites]
Okay. Yours is the first comment in the thread, and set the tone for the thread, as it seems a couple people above have noted. It appears you think the photos were crappy. You did not mention this, however; instead, you made a shitty/lazy off-topic comment.
You have only yourself to blame, here, I think.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:46 AM on October 5 [29 favorites]
Pit bulls are absolutely one of those things that MetaFilter doesn't do well. There are (always) a lot of people, in thread, vocally and repeatedly expressing "opinions" that are demonstrably wrong, and painful to people who care about the issue.
It's just that we, as a community, apparently don't care so much about that. My guess is that it's because the mods don't see those comments as creating much danger of causing actual human beings to feel unsafe or unwelcome. That's absolutely valid, of course. Expressing fear and hatred about a class of dogs is in no way the same as expressing fear and hatred about a class of people, for example, and the mods are right to treat it differently. But for some (admittedly small, and maybe crazy) part of the population, to which I happen to belong, it's painful and stupid and ignorant in similar ways -- I think we owe a stewardship and respect to our animals similar to that we owe our fellow human beings.
So these threads make me sad and a little sick, and they make MetaFilter smaller, and the fact the we don't do anything about it also makes MetaFilter a worse place, IMHO. But I'm not sure there's much to do. I'm against bans on any speech, even the ones we have now, so I guess it's just FIAMO.
posted by The Bellman at 7:46 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
It's just that we, as a community, apparently don't care so much about that. My guess is that it's because the mods don't see those comments as creating much danger of causing actual human beings to feel unsafe or unwelcome. That's absolutely valid, of course. Expressing fear and hatred about a class of dogs is in no way the same as expressing fear and hatred about a class of people, for example, and the mods are right to treat it differently. But for some (admittedly small, and maybe crazy) part of the population, to which I happen to belong, it's painful and stupid and ignorant in similar ways -- I think we owe a stewardship and respect to our animals similar to that we owe our fellow human beings.
So these threads make me sad and a little sick, and they make MetaFilter smaller, and the fact the we don't do anything about it also makes MetaFilter a worse place, IMHO. But I'm not sure there's much to do. I'm against bans on any speech, even the ones we have now, so I guess it's just FIAMO.
posted by The Bellman at 7:46 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
if you think the pictures are crappy then why even bother commenting in the thread unless your point was to derail it? you're allowed to just pass on threads that don't interest you instead of turning them into a fight.
posted by nadawi at 7:49 AM on October 5 [26 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:49 AM on October 5 [26 favorites]
I love pitties and I love those pics and I was all set to love that thread. Nope. Pretty disappointing.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:51 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:51 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
I understand you concern for animals being killed as a result of their reputation, but I disagree with this:
When 80% of the thread is people saying 'I know a person who was attacked by a pit bull,' that is neither discussion of the actual FPP nor, really, discussion at all.
posted by ignignokt at 7:52 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
When 80% of the thread is people saying 'I know a person who was attacked by a pit bull,' that is neither discussion of the actual FPP nor, really, discussion at all.
Sophie Gamand has created a photographic series of pit bulls wearing flower crowns to challenge the common association of pit bulls with violence.The FPP is basically "here are photographs to challenge the common association of [something] with violence." Commenters then post their lived experiences and those of friends involving [something] and violence. I think that's fair.
posted by ignignokt at 7:52 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
Fair enough, the photos and concept behind them IMO do not really merit serious discussion so I will refrain from commenting further, apologies for the initial one. If it doesn't meet site rules then hopefully the mods will delete it.
posted by colie at 7:52 AM on October 5
posted by colie at 7:52 AM on October 5
Pit bulls are absolutely one of those things that MetaFilter doesn't do well.
Here, yet again, "doesn't do well" means people are allowed to express an opinion different than your own.
posted by grouse at 7:54 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
Here, yet again, "doesn't do well" means people are allowed to express an opinion different than your own.
posted by grouse at 7:54 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
Here, yet again, "doesn't do well" means people are allowed to express an opinion different than your own.
Right. Because other than people not agreeing with me, that thread is a peach.
posted by The Bellman at 7:59 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
Right. Because other than people not agreeing with me, that thread is a peach.
posted by The Bellman at 7:59 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
Exactly. The thread is fine.
posted by grouse at 8:02 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
posted by grouse at 8:02 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
The link goes to cute photos of dogs.
And a bit of text which invited exactly the type of discussion that the thread engendered.
"America euthanizes upward of 1,000,000 pit bulls every year. It's a quiet massacre. Pit bulls make people uncomfortable. The country is faced with a major pit bull crisis. Around the world, pit bulls are equally victims of prejudices that associate them with ultra-violence and make them disposable dogs. Through my series Flower Power: Pit Bulls of the Revolution, I decided to photograph them with flower crowns, to infuse a softer energy into their imagery. I wish for this series to challenge the way we look at pit bulls, and ultimately the way we treat them."
The photographer would have done well to have kept silent and let the photographs do the talking, but was hoist by her own self-congratulatory petard.
posted by three blind mice at 8:03 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
And a bit of text which invited exactly the type of discussion that the thread engendered.
"America euthanizes upward of 1,000,000 pit bulls every year. It's a quiet massacre. Pit bulls make people uncomfortable. The country is faced with a major pit bull crisis. Around the world, pit bulls are equally victims of prejudices that associate them with ultra-violence and make them disposable dogs. Through my series Flower Power: Pit Bulls of the Revolution, I decided to photograph them with flower crowns, to infuse a softer energy into their imagery. I wish for this series to challenge the way we look at pit bulls, and ultimately the way we treat them."
The photographer would have done well to have kept silent and let the photographs do the talking, but was hoist by her own self-congratulatory petard.
posted by three blind mice at 8:03 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
I think the post itself was a bit of troll exercise in mifi-baiting. (pun not intended). Another part of the site was a lot more interesting and had more photographic variety. In fact why was the entire site not highlighted with a few links pointing to extra cute or unusual image would have make a much better and NON controversial post.
posted by sammyo at 8:07 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 8:07 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Self-congratulatory to explain the specific reason the photos were taken? I'm not feeling that.
posted by mintcake! at 8:10 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
posted by mintcake! at 8:10 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
My wife and I donate time and money to animal causes, and have met some amazingly loving pit bulls over the years. The people who work for the local pit rescues are among the best people you'll ever meet, and they make wonderful things happen to dogs that might not be given a chance otherwise.
Still, the framing of the linked page of photos and the FPP itself invites discussion about the underlying issue that inspired the photographer, so declaring talk of that underlying issue "threadshitting" simply because it is focusing on the reason for the pictures existing rather than the pictures themselves seems misguided to me. I have no problem with a mod intervention that says "we've had the pit bull violence discussion before, it's time to move on", and am perfectly comfortable with some topics being filed under "things MeFi doesn't do well" when discussion of them becomes so emotional that it ruins every tangentially-related discussion, but on this link and this FPP, a discussion about pit bull violence, including personal experiences with it, is clearly in scope.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:11 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
Still, the framing of the linked page of photos and the FPP itself invites discussion about the underlying issue that inspired the photographer, so declaring talk of that underlying issue "threadshitting" simply because it is focusing on the reason for the pictures existing rather than the pictures themselves seems misguided to me. I have no problem with a mod intervention that says "we've had the pit bull violence discussion before, it's time to move on", and am perfectly comfortable with some topics being filed under "things MeFi doesn't do well" when discussion of them becomes so emotional that it ruins every tangentially-related discussion, but on this link and this FPP, a discussion about pit bull violence, including personal experiences with it, is clearly in scope.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:11 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
i don't see anything in Athanassiel's history that can back up an accusation of trolling metafilter.
posted by nadawi at 8:12 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:12 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
Wow, that thread is bad. "The open carry of the dog world" is like an actual comment.
posted by zutalors! at 8:14 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 8:14 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
I think the post itself was a bit of troll exercise
If you have a basis for that beyond vague gut feeling, that's something to let us know about at the contact form, but please don't speculate randomly in discussions on the site about other users being trolls etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:14 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
If you have a basis for that beyond vague gut feeling, that's something to let us know about at the contact form, but please don't speculate randomly in discussions on the site about other users being trolls etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:14 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
I think that it's a pretty useless discussion as well, but I don't think Metafilter can or should ban every groups of widely-held unpleasant opinions.
Right. Because other than people not agreeing with me, that thread is a peach.
tbh I can't even be bothered going to read the thread, but I'm assuming that people are being jerks to each other by your comment.
People need to learn to disagree without being jerks, but I doubt heavy-handed deletion of comments in one thread is going to fix that problem.
posted by GuyZero at 8:16 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Right. Because other than people not agreeing with me, that thread is a peach.
tbh I can't even be bothered going to read the thread, but I'm assuming that people are being jerks to each other by your comment.
People need to learn to disagree without being jerks, but I doubt heavy-handed deletion of comments in one thread is going to fix that problem.
posted by GuyZero at 8:16 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
This is up to the level of cliche in my house. When Mrs. Fry sees me walking away from my computer with a look of bewildered disgust the question always asked is "Thread about circumcised pit bulls?"
We don't do this well. There is no benefit of the doubt, tempers start too high, people's good faith is too limited.
Look at the first few comments. Before you're off the 1st page: defensiveness, aggressive tone and the worst reading of peoples intentions are rampant on all sides of the discussion. There is an intersection of deep love and protectiveness of individual dog owners and advocates and deep trauma of individual victims and their loved ones that is just a recipe for total crap.
posted by French Fry at 8:18 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
We don't do this well. There is no benefit of the doubt, tempers start too high, people's good faith is too limited.
Look at the first few comments. Before you're off the 1st page: defensiveness, aggressive tone and the worst reading of peoples intentions are rampant on all sides of the discussion. There is an intersection of deep love and protectiveness of individual dog owners and advocates and deep trauma of individual victims and their loved ones that is just a recipe for total crap.
posted by French Fry at 8:18 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
Yeah, the thread literally includes a call for the breed to be exterminated from the face of the earth. I think that people who have reservations about pit bulls would do well to find a way to phrase those that is slightly more moderate than "KILL THEM ALL".
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:21 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:21 AM on October 5 [16 favorites]
I also apologize for my offhand remark, which worsened the tenor on that thread. Never having seen a pitbull thread here before, I was just completely taken aback about something that I've got strong feelings about.
posted by hwyengr at 8:25 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
posted by hwyengr at 8:25 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: coming at it from pretty strongly personal perspectives that makes it hard to really get away from the fundamental sense of disagreement on the subject.
posted by Melismata at 8:27 AM on October 5
posted by Melismata at 8:27 AM on October 5
Man, that's a terrible thread.
colie: Fair enough, the photos and concept behind them IMO do not really merit serious discussion so I will refrain from commenting further, apologies for the initial one. If it doesn't meet site rules then hopefully the mods will delete it.
Unfortunately, it's too late now. Your initial comment set the tone for the thread. And here we are.
Also, the mods don't like to delete comments that have responses, because then it becomes a deletion rabbit hole. One comment quotes the first, so to maintain the thread and have it make sense to anyone reading, both have to be deleted. But another person responded to the second one, so that one has to go, too. And six more people responded to that one so.... you get the idea. If they catch derails quickly in a fast-moving thread, they'll be deleted. Otherwise, no.
posted by zarq at 8:28 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
colie: Fair enough, the photos and concept behind them IMO do not really merit serious discussion so I will refrain from commenting further, apologies for the initial one. If it doesn't meet site rules then hopefully the mods will delete it.
Unfortunately, it's too late now. Your initial comment set the tone for the thread. And here we are.
Also, the mods don't like to delete comments that have responses, because then it becomes a deletion rabbit hole. One comment quotes the first, so to maintain the thread and have it make sense to anyone reading, both have to be deleted. But another person responded to the second one, so that one has to go, too. And six more people responded to that one so.... you get the idea. If they catch derails quickly in a fast-moving thread, they'll be deleted. Otherwise, no.
posted by zarq at 8:28 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
Wow, that thread is appalling from the very start.
apologies for the initial one
the rest of them are gross and hateful too.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:31 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
apologies for the initial one
the rest of them are gross and hateful too.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:31 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
While I'm sympathetic to those who have been or know someone who was attacked, there's a lot of repeating of the myths about killer instincts, attack dogs, and the like that absolutely doesn't belong. I feel sorry for Athanassiel, because they absolutely didn't need the tone of that thread set by people being nasty about the breed, some for what looks like no real reason at all.
Also, I'd like it point out that the tenor of some of the comments here claiming that the OP or the subject of the FPP were bringing it on themselves are really disgusting.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:35 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
Also, I'd like it point out that the tenor of some of the comments here claiming that the OP or the subject of the FPP were bringing it on themselves are really disgusting.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:35 AM on October 5 [12 favorites]
Gross and hateful? I can't see that in the other two, and it's sufficiently strong a thing to say that I'd appreciate you backing that up.
posted by colie at 8:38 AM on October 5
posted by colie at 8:38 AM on October 5
Although I must admit, the comment suggesting that cats are "least aggressive and least capable of causing serious injury" made me laugh out loud.
Commenter has obviously never owned a cat.
Please disregard the fangs and really sharp claws and intricate plans to smother you in your sleep.... Move along. Nothing to see here.
posted by zarq at 8:39 AM on October 5 [11 favorites]
Commenter has obviously never owned a cat.
Please disregard the fangs and really sharp claws and intricate plans to smother you in your sleep.... Move along. Nothing to see here.
posted by zarq at 8:39 AM on October 5 [11 favorites]
Commenter has obviously never owned a cat.
Yep, anyone that wants a prosthetic hand for some aesthetic fetish need only come pet my cat.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:50 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Yep, anyone that wants a prosthetic hand for some aesthetic fetish need only come pet my cat.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:50 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Commenter has obviously never owned a cat.
You think he wants a belly rub, but what he's really doing is putting all the pointy bits upward.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:52 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
You think he wants a belly rub, but what he's really doing is putting all the pointy bits upward.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:52 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
So the subject is also about the negative associations of pit bulls.
So we have a way for people to weasel around the guidelines to get their 5 minutes of hate on for pit bulls. It may not be explicitly against the rules, but this place would be a hell of a lot nicer without that shit.
posted by zarq at 8:52 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
So we have a way for people to weasel around the guidelines to get their 5 minutes of hate on for pit bulls. It may not be explicitly against the rules, but this place would be a hell of a lot nicer without that shit.
posted by zarq at 8:52 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
Holy shit, that thread is awful. It's a shame, because I think there are plenty of interesting things to discuss about pit bulls and might have easily written a fpp about them. There are a LOT of things you can discuss about then in terms of class, race, rescue, the history of the pit bull in the US, hell, even an actual nuanced discussion of dog bites in the US and what legislation actually works to curtail them. I know where a lot of those cool discussions are and before today would probably have brought them to Metafilter eventually, in the same way that it once occurred to me to post about dog carting.
Fuck that after today, though. Jesus Christ, the quality of 'discussion' in that thread is appalling.
posted by sciatrix at 8:58 AM on October 5 [21 favorites]
Fuck that after today, though. Jesus Christ, the quality of 'discussion' in that thread is appalling.
posted by sciatrix at 8:58 AM on October 5 [21 favorites]
So we have a way for people to weasel around the guidelines to get their 5 minutes of hate on for pit bulls. It may not be explicitly against the rules, but this place would be a hell of a lot nicer without that shit.
I haven't looked at the thread, the description here makes me think it's not worth it. But I pretty vehemently disagree that challenging a relatively controversial assertion about the "flower power" of pit bulls is somehow skirting the rules in a thread framed that way. I quite like pits, but I don't think the subject of those photos was cute dogs, I think it was rehabilitating a breed. That's what the artist said their goal was. It seems disingenuous to me to paint this as just a bunch of cute dog pictures just because there are people who disagree with the artist's mission.
posted by OmieWise at 8:58 AM on October 5 [7 favorites]
I haven't looked at the thread, the description here makes me think it's not worth it. But I pretty vehemently disagree that challenging a relatively controversial assertion about the "flower power" of pit bulls is somehow skirting the rules in a thread framed that way. I quite like pits, but I don't think the subject of those photos was cute dogs, I think it was rehabilitating a breed. That's what the artist said their goal was. It seems disingenuous to me to paint this as just a bunch of cute dog pictures just because there are people who disagree with the artist's mission.
posted by OmieWise at 8:58 AM on October 5 [7 favorites]
I posted a similarly simple single-link FPP about cute pitties about a month ago, and if there were any derail/threadshitting attempts, the mods must have snipped them tout de suite. It isn't clear to me what unleashed the wrath of MeFi's resident anti-APBT crew onto Athanassiel's FPP and not mine -- the framing? the language? the contents of the link itself? I dunno.
On a happier note, I'm just trying to use this entire exercise as nothing more than an excuse to look at more pictures of cute dogs, like these, from the same site/artist as the 'Flower Power' pics.
posted by divined by radio at 8:59 AM on October 5 [8 favorites]
On a happier note, I'm just trying to use this entire exercise as nothing more than an excuse to look at more pictures of cute dogs, like these, from the same site/artist as the 'Flower Power' pics.
posted by divined by radio at 8:59 AM on October 5 [8 favorites]
So the subject is also about the negative associations of pit bulls.
So we have a way for people to weasel around the guidelines to get their 5 minutes of hate on for pit bulls. It may not be explicitly against the rules, but this place would be a hell of a lot nicer without that shit.
How is that discussion "weasel[ing] around the guidelines"? What guidelines are there that say you can't engage with a point of view that's presented in the post and the subject?
posted by Etrigan at 9:06 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
So we have a way for people to weasel around the guidelines to get their 5 minutes of hate on for pit bulls. It may not be explicitly against the rules, but this place would be a hell of a lot nicer without that shit.
How is that discussion "weasel[ing] around the guidelines"? What guidelines are there that say you can't engage with a point of view that's presented in the post and the subject?
posted by Etrigan at 9:06 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
I'm going to do a photo montage of guns wearing flower crowns. That'll scratch MeFi's itch!
posted by klanawa at 9:06 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 9:06 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
I posted a similarly simple single-link FPP about cute pitties about a month ago, and if there were any derail/threadshitting attempts, the mods must have snipped them tout de suite. It isn't clear to me what unleashed the wrath of MeFi's resident anti-APBT crew onto Athanassiel's FPP and not mine -- the framing? the language? the contents of the link itself? I dunno.
One possible point of comparison is that you used "Staffie" for Staffordshire terrier rather than "Pit Bull."
posted by zutalors! at 9:06 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
I think we just need to put Pit Bulls down as something that Metafilter doesn't do well. Half of our members see them as cute cuddly snookums, the other half see them as dangerous beasts. There doesn't seem to be much opportunity for exchange of views or middle ground, just a bunch of shouting back and forth.
I am not at all surprised that the thread went the way it did, and I'd expect future threads to go the same way. That's fine. You can't expect people to stop defending their cute cuddly snookums, and you can't expect people to stay silent about their experiences of violence.
Since the resulting threads are such low quality, maybe we just shouldn't do them here.
posted by alms at 9:09 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
I am not at all surprised that the thread went the way it did, and I'd expect future threads to go the same way. That's fine. You can't expect people to stop defending their cute cuddly snookums, and you can't expect people to stay silent about their experiences of violence.
Since the resulting threads are such low quality, maybe we just shouldn't do them here.
posted by alms at 9:09 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
Dogs with artificial flowers on their heads make me feel sad for them--they look like reluctant bridesmaids in tacky weddings.
posted by Ideefixe at 9:09 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 9:09 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
I mean, yeah, but anyone who knows dogs should know that Staffordshire Bull Terriers (and American Staffordshire Terriers, who are also frequently referred to as "Staffies") are.... the two AKC registered breeds who are most likely to fall under "pit bull." Of course, the problem here is that "pit bull" is an incredibly loosely defined term encompassing at least three AKC-registered breeds, plus or minus two primarily UKC-registered breeds, plus or minus "any vaguely muscly short-haired dog with a not particularly pointy nose" up to and including actual lab mixes.
So maybe the people who are just rushing to get their hate on for "pit bulls" are easily confused by incredibly transparent changes in names? Whoo, problem solved forever!
posted by sciatrix at 9:09 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
So maybe the people who are just rushing to get their hate on for "pit bulls" are easily confused by incredibly transparent changes in names? Whoo, problem solved forever!
posted by sciatrix at 9:09 AM on October 5 [10 favorites]
interestingly (or possibly ironically) just like the referenced thread seems to be PB good vs. PB bad, this thread seems to be turning into Referenced Post fine vs. Referenced Post horrible!
It's fascinating really (and I mean this with 100% sincerity and 0% irony or sarcasm!) - how different people see the thread differently.
It's like Blue/Black dress vs. White/Gold dress all over again, except here everyone's mad.
For what it's worth, I appreciate both sides of the PB discussion, I didn't think the thread was so bad, and the dress is totally white and gold.
posted by bitteroldman at 9:10 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
It's fascinating really (and I mean this with 100% sincerity and 0% irony or sarcasm!) - how different people see the thread differently.
It's like Blue/Black dress vs. White/Gold dress all over again, except here everyone's mad.
For what it's worth, I appreciate both sides of the PB discussion, I didn't think the thread was so bad, and the dress is totally white and gold.
posted by bitteroldman at 9:10 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
The swerve into the equivalency of sexism was a little weird.
posted by Mitheral at 9:11 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 9:11 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
I mean, yeah, but anyone who knows dogs should know that Staffordshire Bull Terriers (and American Staffordshire Terriers, who are also frequently referred to as "Staffies") are.... the two AKC registered breeds who are most likely to fall under "pit bull."
Well, that's kind of my point, I think it's more people who don't know anything about dogs and especially rescue/shelter organizations and their struggles with Pit Bull PR are completely ready to come into the thread with "open carry of the dog world" type nonsense.
posted by zutalors! at 9:14 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
Well, that's kind of my point, I think it's more people who don't know anything about dogs and especially rescue/shelter organizations and their struggles with Pit Bull PR are completely ready to come into the thread with "open carry of the dog world" type nonsense.
posted by zutalors! at 9:14 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
I posted a similarly simple single-link FPP about cute pitties about a month ago
My modly eye sees one post that's very explicitly "here's a cute puppy photo, and another, and another, basically cute puppy photos guys!" that drew in...folks talking about cute puppy photos. Which is awesome and I'm glad that's what happened because, hey, cute puppy photos.
This one had both the post text and the link content framing the (decidedly cute!) dog photos in terms of a controversial reputation for violence, which is a pretty critical difference. Not to the point of being destiny or making irreconcilable arguments in the ensuing thread some awesome thing or whatever, but it's not just "two cute dog pic posts" with no other distinctions to explain the different reception.
Dogs and dog violence and dog abuse and so on make for difficult discussions. And I think it's easier for folks to feel okay about a difficult discussion coming from a post that seems to be actively focused on that—something like a post about a long-form piece on perceptions of dog violence and breeds and so on, or whatever—than from a post nominally about cute dog pics. So it can—doesn't have to, won't always, but can—end up becoming a thing where two different audiences come to the same post with very different expectations based on reacting to starkly different aspects of the same post. Which is a tricky thing to sort out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:19 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
My modly eye sees one post that's very explicitly "here's a cute puppy photo, and another, and another, basically cute puppy photos guys!" that drew in...folks talking about cute puppy photos. Which is awesome and I'm glad that's what happened because, hey, cute puppy photos.
This one had both the post text and the link content framing the (decidedly cute!) dog photos in terms of a controversial reputation for violence, which is a pretty critical difference. Not to the point of being destiny or making irreconcilable arguments in the ensuing thread some awesome thing or whatever, but it's not just "two cute dog pic posts" with no other distinctions to explain the different reception.
Dogs and dog violence and dog abuse and so on make for difficult discussions. And I think it's easier for folks to feel okay about a difficult discussion coming from a post that seems to be actively focused on that—something like a post about a long-form piece on perceptions of dog violence and breeds and so on, or whatever—than from a post nominally about cute dog pics. So it can—doesn't have to, won't always, but can—end up becoming a thing where two different audiences come to the same post with very different expectations based on reacting to starkly different aspects of the same post. Which is a tricky thing to sort out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:19 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
And I'm pissed off here because I'd totally like to discuss pit bulls as a category with some level of nuance, but the people who are so vehemently insisting that pit bulls are perfectly capable of being sweet (which they are) get so defensive about it in the first place specifically because people rush to tell them that perfectly good dogs ought to be put down... which makes it more likely that actual aggressive dogs won't be treated properly, because people get defensive about the ones who aren't threats!
(No matter that any dog can bite, and that breed is a much poorer indication of bite risk than actually watching an individual dog's body language and treating dogs as individuals in the first place. Or that most people really and truly suck at guessing breeds on mixes.)
I mean for fuck's sake there are people in there going "ooooh, the dog can SPONTANEOUSLY TURN VICIOUS WITH NO WARNING." You have got to be fucking kidding me. Dogs don't actually do that, that hoary chestnut was old when I was born! How are you supposed to have a thoughtful discussion when people are repeating misinformation and outright lies from thirty years ago? Is someone going to advance the considered opinion that sometimes their brains grow too big for their skulls and that drives them crazy next?
I think I'm actually most angry because this is a subject I know quite a bit about, and the level of pig ignorance in that thread is astounding. Not "the amount of people who disagree with me on a topic." Straight up aggressive ignorance. You can disagree on the safety of "pit bulls" as a class while still taking the time to actually get to know what the state of dog ownership in the USA is.
posted by sciatrix at 9:19 AM on October 5 [18 favorites]
(No matter that any dog can bite, and that breed is a much poorer indication of bite risk than actually watching an individual dog's body language and treating dogs as individuals in the first place. Or that most people really and truly suck at guessing breeds on mixes.)
I mean for fuck's sake there are people in there going "ooooh, the dog can SPONTANEOUSLY TURN VICIOUS WITH NO WARNING." You have got to be fucking kidding me. Dogs don't actually do that, that hoary chestnut was old when I was born! How are you supposed to have a thoughtful discussion when people are repeating misinformation and outright lies from thirty years ago? Is someone going to advance the considered opinion that sometimes their brains grow too big for their skulls and that drives them crazy next?
I think I'm actually most angry because this is a subject I know quite a bit about, and the level of pig ignorance in that thread is astounding. Not "the amount of people who disagree with me on a topic." Straight up aggressive ignorance. You can disagree on the safety of "pit bulls" as a class while still taking the time to actually get to know what the state of dog ownership in the USA is.
posted by sciatrix at 9:19 AM on October 5 [18 favorites]
How is that discussion "weasel[ing] around the guidelines"? What guidelines are there that say you can't engage with a point of view that's presented in the post and the subject?
That's not the point I was making, Etrigan.
The over-the-top comments were derails that (in some cases) used a veneer of topicality to escape deletion. Those comments included the modified NRA slogan that kicked off the thread, "The open carry of the dog world" comment, a 'won't someone think of the children in big cities" comment, an apparent call for a breed ban (characterized later as eugenics), and at least one or two sexist comparisons.
And possibly others that I missed or were deleted.
posted by zarq at 9:20 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
That's not the point I was making, Etrigan.
The over-the-top comments were derails that (in some cases) used a veneer of topicality to escape deletion. Those comments included the modified NRA slogan that kicked off the thread, "The open carry of the dog world" comment, a 'won't someone think of the children in big cities" comment, an apparent call for a breed ban (characterized later as eugenics), and at least one or two sexist comparisons.
And possibly others that I missed or were deleted.
posted by zarq at 9:20 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
Also, after thinking about it for a minute, it's possible that's not why the comments that remain escaped deletion. Cortex said above that the first comment was seen too late. Other comments were deleted.
posted by zarq at 9:25 AM on October 5
posted by zarq at 9:25 AM on October 5
How is that discussion "weasel[ing] around the guidelines"? What guidelines are there that say you can't engage with a point of view that's presented in the post and the subject?
That's not the point I was making, Etrigan.
The over-the-top comments were derails that used a veneer of topicality to escape deletion.
As divined by radio points out, MetaFilter is capable of (apparently) having a nice "Look at the doggies that happen to be pit bulls!" discussion. But framing it as "Look at the not actually violent despite what the media would have you believe doggies!" invites an entirely different discussion.
The over-the-top comments were over the top. They weren't derails.
posted by Etrigan at 9:28 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
That's not the point I was making, Etrigan.
The over-the-top comments were derails that used a veneer of topicality to escape deletion.
As divined by radio points out, MetaFilter is capable of (apparently) having a nice "Look at the doggies that happen to be pit bulls!" discussion. But framing it as "Look at the not actually violent despite what the media would have you believe doggies!" invites an entirely different discussion.
The over-the-top comments were over the top. They weren't derails.
posted by Etrigan at 9:28 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
*shrug* We disagree.
posted by zarq at 9:32 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
posted by zarq at 9:32 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
Comments telling people to use pictures of pit bulls like they were America's Most Wanted, calling anybody (including, apparently, one of the largest veterinary non-profits in the world) who doesn't agree that Pit/Staffordshire/etc are more dangerous to children than other breeds "deluded," and asserting that they have been bred with kill-on-demand behaviors are both over-the-top and derails.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:33 AM on October 5 [14 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 9:33 AM on October 5 [14 favorites]
I was attacked and bitten by a pit bull a couple of years ago
"A" was a rescue pit, off leash, who saw me more than a hundred yard away, charged me, growled, and then jumped and bit my arm while I tried to defend myself. A few months later, again off leash, A ended up chasing me up a fence when trying to attack me again; I blame the dog's early upbringing and current owners for refusing to recognize that their dog really really needed behavioral training and to always be on leash. I reported the initial incident and then again contacted the police when he tried to attack me again and then one further time when he was again being walked off leash. I now carry pepper spray to defend myself against his owners' stupidity. They clearly don't care about their dog.
I didn't go look at the photos or contribute to the thread because despite knowing that the dog who attacked me was like that not because he's a pit, I still am not totally keen on pit bulls and I knew that my contribution wouldn't be helpful or useful in the thread.
posted by sciencegeek at 9:35 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
"A" was a rescue pit, off leash, who saw me more than a hundred yard away, charged me, growled, and then jumped and bit my arm while I tried to defend myself. A few months later, again off leash, A ended up chasing me up a fence when trying to attack me again; I blame the dog's early upbringing and current owners for refusing to recognize that their dog really really needed behavioral training and to always be on leash. I reported the initial incident and then again contacted the police when he tried to attack me again and then one further time when he was again being walked off leash. I now carry pepper spray to defend myself against his owners' stupidity. They clearly don't care about their dog.
I didn't go look at the photos or contribute to the thread because despite knowing that the dog who attacked me was like that not because he's a pit, I still am not totally keen on pit bulls and I knew that my contribution wouldn't be helpful or useful in the thread.
posted by sciencegeek at 9:35 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
It would be very helpful if the pro pit bull people could be less condescending to people who have a different perspective.
posted by alms at 9:44 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
posted by alms at 9:44 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
what would you consider the "actual subject" of this FPP?
How adorbs puppies is.
posted by maxsparber at 9:46 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
How adorbs puppies is.
posted by maxsparber at 9:46 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
Pony request: replace all first comments with a jpg of Oscar Wilde sleeping peacefully.
posted by mintcake! at 9:52 AM on October 5
posted by mintcake! at 9:52 AM on October 5
Please never say 'adorbs' again.
Also, we have a pit bull who visits our store almost daily, her name is Isabel, she's sweet as hell.
posted by jonmc at 9:55 AM on October 5
Also, we have a pit bull who visits our store almost daily, her name is Isabel, she's sweet as hell.
posted by jonmc at 9:55 AM on October 5
Nobody should own dogs. Everybody should own cats. Okay, not everybody. Some people should own mules. Um, well, a friend of mine has a yellow-headed amazon parrot name Punk. She shouldn't own mules.
If you must own a dog, don't cut off its tail or trim its ears. Keep your lap rat on your lap when you come to visit. One of our cats makes a living out of shredding their ears. By the way, if your cat is shredding a dog, wait until the dog gets loose before you try to comfort him. There's a myth going around, something to the effect that you can pick a cat up by the scruff of the neck and he'll go limp. Hahahaha. Maybe, but don't try this while he's shredding a lap rat.
posted by mule98J at 10:01 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
If you must own a dog, don't cut off its tail or trim its ears. Keep your lap rat on your lap when you come to visit. One of our cats makes a living out of shredding their ears. By the way, if your cat is shredding a dog, wait until the dog gets loose before you try to comfort him. There's a myth going around, something to the effect that you can pick a cat up by the scruff of the neck and he'll go limp. Hahahaha. Maybe, but don't try this while he's shredding a lap rat.
posted by mule98J at 10:01 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
It would be very helpful if anti pit bull people brought more than anecdotes and opinions to that thread (ie: sources/links/citations).
posted by el io at 10:02 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
posted by el io at 10:02 AM on October 5 [6 favorites]
I'm just gonna re-nudge here that to whatever extent there is a discussion to be had about MetaFilter discussion and moderation and so on, this needs to not turn into a second discussion/argument about pits/dogs/animals/ownership/etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:03 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:03 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
It would be very helpful if the pro pit bull people could be less condescending to people who have a different perspective.
Yes! And vice versa.
posted by eisforcool at 10:04 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
Yes! And vice versa.
posted by eisforcool at 10:04 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
It would be very helpful if the pro pit bull people could be less condescending to people who have a different perspective.
It would also be helpful if one of the "different perspectives" weren't literally breed genocide.
posted by phunniemee at 10:07 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
It would also be helpful if one of the "different perspectives" weren't literally breed genocide.
posted by phunniemee at 10:07 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
But one side is wrong!
posted by cjorgensen at 10:07 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 10:07 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
It would be very helpful if the pro pit bull people could be less condescending to people who have a different perspective.
It would also be helpful if one of the "different perspectives" weren't literally breed genocide.
Perhaps we can all collectively agree that the answer to shittiness shouldn't be to balance out the shittiness by piling more shittiness onto the other side of the big shitty seesaw.
posted by Etrigan at 10:09 AM on October 5
It would also be helpful if one of the "different perspectives" weren't literally breed genocide.
Perhaps we can all collectively agree that the answer to shittiness shouldn't be to balance out the shittiness by piling more shittiness onto the other side of the big shitty seesaw.
posted by Etrigan at 10:09 AM on October 5
Phunniemee, that's exactly the sort of comment I'm talking about.
This is a Meta. We're not supposed to get into the same fights that are going on in the thread.
It's very tempting to respond to you in kind, and rebut what you're saying. Then we'll have a Meta that is just is fighty as the original thread. Please don't do that.
posted by alms at 10:10 AM on October 5
This is a Meta. We're not supposed to get into the same fights that are going on in the thread.
It's very tempting to respond to you in kind, and rebut what you're saying. Then we'll have a Meta that is just is fighty as the original thread. Please don't do that.
posted by alms at 10:10 AM on October 5
I think the point of this post is how come the shit seesaw got onto the playground in the first place.
posted by phunniemee at 10:12 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 10:12 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
"Also, we have a pit bull who visits our store almost daily, her name is Isabel, she's sweet as hell."
Yes, but is she totes adorbs?
posted by I-baLL at 10:12 AM on October 5
Yes, but is she totes adorbs?
posted by I-baLL at 10:12 AM on October 5
If you'd like to have a hyperbolic pit bulls good/bad fight the original thread is still open folks.
posted by French Fry at 10:12 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
posted by French Fry at 10:12 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
I think we just need to put Pit Bulls down as something that Metafilter doesn't do well.
Phrasing!
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:17 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
Phrasing!
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:17 AM on October 5 [4 favorites]
cjorgensen: "But one side is wrong!"
On the internet no less.
posted by Mitheral at 10:18 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
On the internet no less.
posted by Mitheral at 10:18 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
It would be very helpful if anti pit bull people brought more than anecdotes and opinions to that thread (ie: sources/links/citations).
It's been well-established that "this is a thing that happened to me" is a perfectly valid take to bring to a thread and that "citation please" is not a great response to that sort of contribution.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:19 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
It's been well-established that "this is a thing that happened to me" is a perfectly valid take to bring to a thread and that "citation please" is not a great response to that sort of contribution.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:19 AM on October 5 [9 favorites]
Earlier I said this isn't a thing we do well and I think that's underselling it. Reading more and more the thread there is a real "is this even Metafilter?" vibe to it. Both sides of the argument veer into 'open comments on a news site' levels of awful. I half expect to see someone pop in to note how they are making 10,000 dollars a week from home.
I'm not sure what would have "saved" the thread from a moderation perspective. Colie's first comment could be seen as the initial problem, but it's vague and not the sort of thing i'd like to see routinely deleted. A dozen comments later that comment has been referenced 8-9 times, so at that point it's clear things are getting heated and about the breed more than the photos. But deleting all those comments creates it's own problem, and likely a Meta about those censoring-asshole-mods.
Perhaps a friendly reminder early on that this is a loaded topic and we should treat it as such?
posted by French Fry at 11:14 AM on October 5
I'm not sure what would have "saved" the thread from a moderation perspective. Colie's first comment could be seen as the initial problem, but it's vague and not the sort of thing i'd like to see routinely deleted. A dozen comments later that comment has been referenced 8-9 times, so at that point it's clear things are getting heated and about the breed more than the photos. But deleting all those comments creates it's own problem, and likely a Meta about those censoring-asshole-mods.
Perhaps a friendly reminder early on that this is a loaded topic and we should treat it as such?
posted by French Fry at 11:14 AM on October 5
It's been well-established that "this is a thing that happened to me" is a perfectly valid take to bring to a thread and that "citation please" is not a great response to that sort of contribution.
But using that thing that happened to you as a basis for making sweeping conclusions is a bullshit argumentation tactic that will rightly inspire pushback of the kind that you quoted.
posted by invitapriore at 11:15 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
But using that thing that happened to you as a basis for making sweeping conclusions is a bullshit argumentation tactic that will rightly inspire pushback of the kind that you quoted.
posted by invitapriore at 11:15 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
Getting real tired of that "you just don't want disagreement" stunt in defense of threadshits and derails.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:20 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:20 AM on October 5 [5 favorites]
It would be very helpful if anti pit bull people brought more than anecdotes and opinions to that thread (ie: sources/links/citations).
To which the canned response would be, "well, that source says it was a pit bull but it could be a golden retriever for all we know".
posted by Tanizaki at 11:27 AM on October 5
To which the canned response would be, "well, that source says it was a pit bull but it could be a golden retriever for all we know".
posted by Tanizaki at 11:27 AM on October 5
It's obvious that people (A) with bad experiences of a Thing and/or no knowledge of that Thing say different things about it than those people (B) who have no bad experiences with it, or more knowledge. It is also obvious that a reconciliation between A and B cannot really be found here.
It's also obvious that the original link in the post we're looking at tried a different route altogether: The text there said something like "we know all about A and B and Thing and the logical conundrum but hey, CUTE."
Which, as Cortex and others have pointed out, makes it totally okay to discuss A, B, and Thing in that thread.
The rest appears to be compromised reading skills and/or amiritism.
posted by Namlit at 11:30 AM on October 5
It's also obvious that the original link in the post we're looking at tried a different route altogether: The text there said something like "we know all about A and B and Thing and the logical conundrum but hey, CUTE."
Which, as Cortex and others have pointed out, makes it totally okay to discuss A, B, and Thing in that thread.
The rest appears to be compromised reading skills and/or amiritism.
posted by Namlit at 11:30 AM on October 5
Oh and also:
It would be very helpful if the pro pit bull people could be less condescending to people who have a different perspective.
Yes! And vice versa.
"It would be very helpful if the pro-people pit bulls could be less condescending to pit bulls who have a different perspective."
No, that won't do.
"It would be very condescending if the pro-pit people would be helpful to the pro-bull people who have a different perspective."
Hmmm...not sure either.
posted by Namlit at 11:30 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
It would be very helpful if the pro pit bull people could be less condescending to people who have a different perspective.
Yes! And vice versa.
"It would be very helpful if the pro-people pit bulls could be less condescending to pit bulls who have a different perspective."
No, that won't do.
"It would be very condescending if the pro-pit people would be helpful to the pro-bull people who have a different perspective."
Hmmm...not sure either.
posted by Namlit at 11:30 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
can we get the gun derail nipped over there? especially since the person who sent the thread off in that shitty direction is still engaging in that derail after they said in here that they wouldn't comment further...
posted by nadawi at 11:33 AM on October 5
posted by nadawi at 11:33 AM on October 5
Hmmm...not sure either.
Well gosh maybe they meant that should be said in Yoda speak. I guess we will never know.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:34 AM on October 5
Well gosh maybe they meant that should be said in Yoda speak. I guess we will never know.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:34 AM on October 5
Couple comments removed. I mean it about not turning this into Alternate Argument About Dogs thread.
colie, maybe just give both threads a rest at this point; whatever else is going on, it doesn't feel like this is something your commenting instincts are serving you well on today and those early comments in the thread on the blue have really eaten away at the benefit of the doubt further stuff might otherwise get.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:45 AM on October 5
colie, maybe just give both threads a rest at this point; whatever else is going on, it doesn't feel like this is something your commenting instincts are serving you well on today and those early comments in the thread on the blue have really eaten away at the benefit of the doubt further stuff might otherwise get.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:45 AM on October 5
People seem to be getting upset over my "open carry of the dog world" comment, so I'll explain it. That way, if it upsets anyone, it'll at least be for the right reasons.
Pit bulls make people uneasy. This is well understood, and makes sense - even if it is the owner, not the breed (which I don't agree with, but that's a different conversation), there's a ton of bad owners, and the consequence of a mistake are worse than nearly any other breed. So, owners should, as a matter of courtesy, make if clear that their pit bull cannot attack anyone - keep it on leash, get a solid fence, and don't walk more than you can handle. Pit owners are not good about this - there are multiple people in my area who walk them off-leash. And, my impression is that they like that their dogs intimidate people. Particularly people who hate or fear pits.
This is an attitude I find reminiscent of open-carry advocates.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:45 AM on October 5
Pit bulls make people uneasy. This is well understood, and makes sense - even if it is the owner, not the breed (which I don't agree with, but that's a different conversation), there's a ton of bad owners, and the consequence of a mistake are worse than nearly any other breed. So, owners should, as a matter of courtesy, make if clear that their pit bull cannot attack anyone - keep it on leash, get a solid fence, and don't walk more than you can handle. Pit owners are not good about this - there are multiple people in my area who walk them off-leash. And, my impression is that they like that their dogs intimidate people. Particularly people who hate or fear pits.
This is an attitude I find reminiscent of open-carry advocates.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:45 AM on October 5
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posted by Etrigan at 7:28 AM on October 5 [13 favorites]