All right, badhistory. Let's talk.

nachof · 4時間前

I am interested in thoughts. How are you feeling about BadHistory? What makes you stay (or, conversely, has you leaving)? What would you like to see? What do you not like to see? How would you fix the things that you feel are broken?

Feeling smug about knowing better than lost causers is a nice feeling, but ultimately empty. And it gets repetitive.

What I really like, what I came here for and what made me stay here, is the really well thought posts that teach me stuff I honestly didn't know, either because I fell prey to the popular misconceptions or because I just didn't know anything about the topic. The best example I can find is that one series about the myths surrounding the European conquest of the Americas.

I also really enjoy the existence (although I rarely read them) of the ultra pedantic posts about how the chair that appeared in the background in that one short scenein a show that didn't even claim to be historically accurate was from a different decade.

addledhands · 4時間前

I think that this subreddit over the last few months has started to feel a lot like the GrammarFails subreddit, and I think that's a problem. There aren't really any rules to GrammarFails beyond: find someone or some institution that wrote something incorrect, and post it. The actual result are dozens of posts from Facebook and other social media, places where good grammar isn't exactly the norm, and a sort of sadistic glee with jumping on people that neither know nor care the rules.

It strikes me that this sort of punishment ought to be reserved for offenders that should know better, like Walmart or Target or whatever screwing stuff up in their ads. But it's not -- it targets small time users, exploiting uneducated folks for sweet justice boner karma.

I see similar things happening here. It's one thing if someone writes a long post with educated airs and is either actively deceiving people or forwarding ignorance; that sort of stuff is great fodder. But casual comments in an AskAnimals post? An askew sentence about FDR on Facebook? This is low fruit, and while the OP posts are often quite thorough, it often feels like the sub just loves picking on people that just don't know any better or lack the education to appreciate the nuance of the actual event.

Sadly, I don't have any examples. I don't read this subreddit a ton, partially because I've been turned off by sniping at what I guess you could call casuals (to use a gaming term). I dislike this kind of thing.

What could be done to make it better? Two things:

An emphasis on going after posts that are written by people pushing an agenda (news media is great for this), intentionally ignorant yet having the education to know better, or people willfully (or ignorantly) spreading misinformation. These are bad things.
A de-emphasis on anything related to social media, and better yet, a de-emphasis on posts made on Reddit (with maybe the exception of content from actual history-related subs).

I don't think that the purpose of this sub is to educate the public, and it's certainly fun to take jabs at idiots, but I think that things can be better. I think BadHistory should target content that gets seen by lots and lots of people (stuff in History Channel, news media, stupid sentences in films like the Caesar reference in Dark Knight), and avoid stuff that just doesn't matter.

TitusBluth · 3時間前

I like that you're opening this discussion. This is probably my favorite sub on reddit (along with /r/badlinguistics and /r/ShitWehraboosSay ) and I'm concerned about the drama apparently occurring behind the scenes.

How are you feeling about BadHistory?

I'm worried about the stuff apparently going on in IRC and over the reports might result in a restrictive moderation policy. I get that this isn't supposed to be /r/badphilosophy (all snark all the time, red panda/pusheen spam and NO LEARNS) but I don't think we're supposed to be /r/AskHistorians' little annex either (if I want dry-ass but well sourced info I'll go over there... or better yet, read the books). I think we have a good balance of snark, learns, snark-based learns and learns-based snark going here.

I understand that there are problem users and there's report abuse going on but it seems to me that a mod policy to control this stuff should be narrowly targeted. There's plenty of non-abusive conversation here that would be chilled if the mods start cracking down willy-nilly.

What makes you stay (or, conversely, has you leaving)?

Free-form, humorous conversation about history. Good OPs are always good but I think the freedom we have in the comments add a lot of value (contrast with /r/AskHistorians).

What would you like to see?

A Small Posts or similar sticky thread for found stuff that doesn't merit a thread by itself or where a poster is involved.

What do you not like to see?

Moratoriums annoy me in principle, especially when they're semi-permanent like we have on Nazi and Confederate topics.

Okay, sometimes stuff gets repetitive but how long are we going to self-censor about Nazi apologia? What if Trump (or whoever) says something crazy about the Confederate battle flag right now? We should have the freedom to discuss this.

How would you fix the things that you feel are broken?

Moderation policies as appropriate to target specific problem behaviors and users, not blanket, "zero tolerance" or similar policies.

pumpkincat · 3時間前

I sometimes get uncomfortable when everyone jumps on the bandwagon against someone when their history isn't necessarily bad just another side of a legitimate controversy. There are still tons of academic debates surrounding history, it's not set in stone yet, and we basically create a false narrative that there is a definitive answer for everything.

edit: Obviously I'm not talking about holocaust denial or lost causers, fuck those guys. More about when we get into the less offensive and obscure stuff.

edit II: Or volcano gods, everyone knows the mighty volcano is real

jordanthejq12 · 4時間前

Hi, long time lurker here. I feel that the actual breakdowns of exactly what constitutes "bad history" are more often than not equal parts informative and highly entertaining, so those are good and have kept me hooked to this sub.

As far as attacking the posters themselves, it's important to remember that people will repeat what they've been taught, and that the purpose of this sub is first and foremost to educate, not to mock. Some people literally do not see what is wrong with what they say.

(That said, if the poster is an unapologetic racist/sexist/apologist for some inexcusable evil, they're probably going to end up fair game for mockery anyway.)

lolplatypus · 3時間前

Okay, I'll bite. I'm ~~probably leaving~~ unsubscribed. Here's why:

Content has gotten stale for some reason. Last year I was in this sub every day, learning cool new stuff about stuff. Now, I dunno. There have been a handful of really cool posts, but then there have been a lot of posts that look like someone was really reaching to find some BH. Are they technically badhistory? Sure. Doesn anybody care if somebody's fanfiction or whatever isn't historically correct? No. I think a big cause of this problem is the moratorium. I don't know off the top of my head, but I think since June Hitler/Nazi/Wehrmacht Apologia has only been off the moratorium once. Same with Lost Cause stuff too, I believe. Hell, look at October's moratorium, its tagline should read Everything You Loved About September - But Now with 2X As Much Civil War! I get it, we don't want to get on here and read a thousand posts about how Uncle Jerry is an idiot for not knowing about the Stainless Banner or whatever, but holy shit are you actually kidding me? If I had a really high-effort Wehrmacht post dealing with some new way or trying to whitewash the war, the ONLY month I could have posted it in is July. That's insane. Why not just make it a standard that Nazi posts aren't allowed?
Whatever this thing is that's going on with people here being jerks, most of us haven't seen it. Apparently that's because it wasn't actually happening here but was in the IRC or over at AH or whatever. So, I guess that's great. It probably means that the mod team is busting their butts keeping us insulated from the drama, which I know at least I appreciate. But what that also means is when I pop onto BH one day, looking for some sexy sexy learning, it's a complete surprise to me to find multiple page long posts indicting us all and condemning us as toxic. I won't lie, that's real off-putting, and is the kind of drama I try to keep as far away from me as possible. I don't know who needs to make their bed, but I know it's not me, so I'm not gonna stick around and get yelled at for it.

Maybe I'll come back later to see how the sub is. I mean I really do love this place, it was a daily visit for me all of last year, and actually accounted for most of my time on reddit. I don't think there's gonna be a huge exodus or anything, and I selfishly hope there isn't, because I would love to come back some day.

EDIT: Might as well put my money where my mouth is. See you guys, thanks for everything!

buy_a_pork_bun · 3時間前

It's okay if you don't want to smite people, everyone else can. <3 As for badhistory I like the place, personally I prefer high effort takedowns that have a bit of snark but not too much antagonism. Maybe it's an extension of the sparse posts I do in AH, but I do like takedowns that at the very least are informative as opposed to purely for the purposes of mockery.

Adrayll · 2時間前

I mostly lurk, as I don't have nearly enough background in history to recognize bad history when I see it most of the time, let alone dissect it. I guess I'm subscribed to educate myself about history (and what isn't actually history.)

Also the pedantry. The sweet, sweet pedantry.

smileyman · 1時間前

Personally I like the long, detailed badhistory posts that are full of learns and pedantic examining of history. It's why I originally got involved in badhistory and those were the types of posts I originally made way back when.

I like drunken ranting type of posts when they're directed against say a tv show or movie or book. I despise them when they're directed against a particular individual (even a public figure), or a particular reddit community. I think those are violations of the "don't be a dick" rule that are at the heart of R4.

I like the jokes and the snarking in comments. I hate the stupid "ayy lmao" type of comments, as they add absolutely nothing.

I also don't really like it when users get ganged up on in the comments. Sometimes that's hard to avoid when they come hunting, but our new rules about not pinging usernames should help.

Virginianus_sum · 4時間前

I'd say that this sub is more or less why I stick around Reddit. I was absent for a couple of months until recently, and it looks like I missed one or two things that happened around here (save for the couple of messages from mods stepping down), but not much seems to have changed.

I think we could benefit from altering the moratorium rules a bit. October's moratorium is basically the same as last month's—maybe we could change it so that (some) things don't appear two months in a row? I think that would help us get a little more content on here. Just an idea.

Other than that, I dunno man. I haven't seen too much incivility in the comments section, though I've seen a couple of comments in the bi-weekly discussion threads mentioning it as a problem. I'd rather it not come down to banning users, but if we gotta, we gotta.

traitoryuri · 2時間前

The main draw of this place to me is learning something new and maybe correcting some of my misconceptions through colorful snark. I'm not a historian myself, but do really enjoy learning the history of small things (the toilet paper effort post way back when comes to mind). It's also great to see some of the really 'out there' bad history like Hawaiian dreadnoughts. What I don't like are short posts on established subjects that don't really bring anything new to the table, or that are overly hostile. I get that Lost Causers and Wehraboos can be quite frustrating, but spouting vitriol isn't going to change anything, and the 'clean wehrmacht' myth has been debunked about a billion times now. Give it a rest unless you found someone claiming they were secretly taking orders from Charlemagne's ghost or something.

gwydapllew · 2時間前

I am a long-time lurker. I love long-winded pedantry that pokes at the topic, not the poster. I enjoy the snark, but only as long as it flows with the topic, not just for the sake of being snarky. I think SWS is a better place for the pure venting of Yet Another Versailles Post, but as a subscriber to AH, BH, and SWS, I really have yet to see any drama. (The first I heard about any drama was on the /outoftheloop thread where BH was mentioned.)

OMGSPACERUSSIA · 2時間前

Ban everybody.

TheGreatDainius · 1時間前

I'm a long time fan of the sub, and agree with a previous poster that this drama is a complete surprise. I respect this community more than nearly any other on the Internet, and I haven't seen the extreme majority of the nastiness going on.

I personally think the moratorium should be toned down. Maybe have it so topics can only be banned once in a two or three month period? No back to back prohibitions? Maybe reduce the number of topics banned at once?

Pianotico · 1時間前

I joined because I thought this sub was about linking to people posting blatantly wrong info in subs where they're being showered in gold/upvotes and their info is being taken as fact, and then showing why they're wrong with detailed sources. But I've only been subbed for a month or two.

smileyman · 1時間前

I'm a dude that lives in Idaho.

Hahahahah! We're gonna take over the world!! (or at least badhistory).

meeeow · 1時間前

Used to be my faovurite sub, I was here daily and loved it. Stopped even visiting it the past few months because everything is centered around smugness. Meh, feel like i cant complain since I wasnt much of a contributor but damn I really enjoyed the reading here.

Hesione · 1時間前

I'm fairly new to this sub and I'm just a lurker but I want to say I really appreciate the posters and commenters in this sub. I am not a history buff, but I appreciate the educational aspect and being a witness to posters getting their nerd on with the pedantry. If Hollywood is making a period piece movie, they damn well better get that chair from the right decade.

thisoneoptimistic · 1時間前

the only times I notice "toxic" behavior is when discussing holocaust deniers and the ilk, which in my opinion, shitting on neonazis for being neonazis is hardly toxic!

I really think the toxicity of the sub is overstated.

econoquist · 1時間前

I am pretty new to the sub, but I am easily annoyed by bad history, bad science, bad statistics-you name it. I feel it is a worthwhile endeavor to push back and not just accept this stuff as inevitable or normal but make a stand for facts to the extent we can.

So far I enjoy it. Would enjoy more call out of politicians or public figures who use their positions to purvey b.s.

Shajaratu_dammi · 59分前

Prioritize posting privileges to users from /r/askhistorians or the badsub collection. /r/conspiratard originators are a borderline case. Restrict posting rights to every other day for those for those who came here from SRD or TIA. Ban all who arrived from /r/history.

We must keep the badhistory pure.

chocolatepot · 41分前

How are you feeling about BadHistory?

I'm not really sure? As a couple of people have said, most of us aren't seeing the drama and suckiness at all, so it's disorienting and kind of weird to see so much talking about it. I don't see toxicity, I've just seen people occasionally posting about how terrible the sub is because our history is bad, which is obnoxious but not really toxic, either.

What makes you stay?

In general, this is one of the few subs I regularly check. I don't read every post, and there are a lot (usually military-related ones, sorry, guys) where I read the beginning, then skim down to the comments. But I can be really pedantic in my own field, so I like hanging out in a pedantic atmosphere, where it's okay to say that something is inaccurate. I don't really know people well, but I recognize names and that's nice.

What would you like to see?

More posts on cultural bad history, I guess? IDK. I'd like to see more posts by me, but most of my irritation comes from Facebook conversations where I say a thing based on years of research and experience, and it gets dismissed because somebody feels "people back then were just like us" and so obviously modern consumption habits are directly relevant to 19th century ones, or they just pretend my comments aren't there or something. Oops, that was a bit bitter! Anyway, that doesn't make for a good BH post, that makes for a good Livejournal rant to embarrass my friends with. (Edit: Maybe I'll do a couple of posts on things that annoy me in Downton Abbey's costuming.)

What do you not like to see?

"You're not allowed to point out when the real bad history is in the post!" I would make this a bannable offense if I were LITERALLY HITLER. People are always pointing out bad history in posts, maybe reconsider your approach to pointing it out if it's not working well for you.

How would you fix the things that you feel are broken?

I don't think anything's actually broken. Rule 4 seems like the perfect kind of thing to use against users that are being toxic, wherever they are. Will some people complain at what they'll represent as "selective", "biased" enforcements of R4? Well, yeah, but it doesn't matter because most of us aren't. You're the mods, you can do what you want! Fandom_Wank it up in here! (Please tell me someone else knows what that is.)

ForgedIronMadeIt · 31分前

I really haven't noticed much of a change in attitude, but I have never been a heavy user of this place. I enjoy learning the nuances of history, of course, but also some of the methods and techniques used as well.

I don't mind being a bit smug as long as it is done in jest for the most part. True academics know that there is always more to learn and approach it with humility, but BH is also a place to vent after encountering something truly mind-numbingly wrong or a persistently ignorant type.

tyme · 29分前

One thing that's bothered me is posts ridiculing bad history in fiction. It seems like extremely low hanging fruit to tear something that's not even supposed to be factually correct apart.

It's fiction, of course it's going to be wrong about facts.

andyzaltzman1 · 3時間前

Not long ago the only new post for several days was a "take down" of some TRP bullshit. That most certainly isn't what I come to this sub for, I don't care what the local drunk thinks about WW1 anymore that I do a default sub commentator.

badhistory

October Moratorium - Lost Cause/States' Rights, Hitler/Nazi/Wehrmacht Apologia, and Confederate Flag history

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