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MetaAll right, badhistory. Let's talk. (self.badhistory)

greyspectre2100Pawn Stars: Nazi Edition が 投稿

It's Friday afternoon, and I've got about ten minutes left on my lunch hour as I write this, but I feel like it's necessary to get something out there in this uneasy quiet that has settled on the subreddit.

A little bit of background about me: I'm a dude that lives in Idaho. My primary occupation is in IT, but I dabble in history because I think to understand who you are, you have to know where you come from. Part of that is because I don't know exactly where my family line comes from; my paternal ancestors, the ones who gave me my last name, peter out in northern Tennessee in the 1870s, and there's only vague supposition and family oral legend about how we ended up with our last name. Predictably, it contains crime, intrigue, and illegitimate children, and might be 100% complete bullshit. The other part that truly inspired me was seeing Abraham Lincoln's hat in the Smithsonian, and being unable to get the idea that it could tell some amazing stories if it only had a voice out of my head.

If you're still awake at this point, good!

Let's be honest for a moment. Things are changing around here. Some moderators have gone, some have stayed, some are new (like me. Hi Mom!). There are concerns about the community here, that we've lost some of that AskHistorians After Dark feeling, that maybe we're not focusing on the bad history that's been posted so much as we're focusing on those smug bastards the users who don't have it quite right (or not at all right) being wrong, that civility is on the wane.

I am interested in thoughts. How are you feeling about BadHistory? What makes you stay (or, conversely, has you leaving)? What would you like to see? What do you not like to see? How would you fix the things that you feel are broken?

I'm not putting on my moderator suit because it's still being sewn together in the back, but the rules are still fully in force for this. Be civil. Be thoughtful. Don't be a dick. I don't want to learn how to smite people in my first 24 hours on the job, but since I am now LITERALLY HITLER, I know I can.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]nachofHistory is written by a guy named Victor 57ポイント58ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am interested in thoughts. How are you feeling about BadHistory? What makes you stay (or, conversely, has you leaving)? What would you like to see? What do you not like to see? How would you fix the things that you feel are broken?

Feeling smug about knowing better than lost causers is a nice feeling, but ultimately empty. And it gets repetitive.

What I really like, what I came here for and what made me stay here, is the really well thought posts that teach me stuff I honestly didn't know, either because I fell prey to the popular misconceptions or because I just didn't know anything about the topic. The best example I can find is that one series about the myths surrounding the European conquest of the Americas.

I also really enjoy the existence (although I rarely read them) of the ultra pedantic posts about how the chair that appeared in the background in that one short scenein a show that didn't even claim to be historically accurate was from a different decade.

[–]LiberumVeto 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

show

<Furiously begins typing up a post on how The Prince of Egypt is not a show>

[–]addledhands 23ポイント24ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think that this subreddit over the last few months has started to feel a lot like the GrammarFails subreddit, and I think that's a problem. There aren't really any rules to GrammarFails beyond: find someone or some institution that wrote something incorrect, and post it. The actual result are dozens of posts from Facebook and other social media, places where good grammar isn't exactly the norm, and a sort of sadistic glee with jumping on people that neither know nor care the rules.

It strikes me that this sort of punishment ought to be reserved for offenders that should know better, like Walmart or Target or whatever screwing stuff up in their ads. But it's not -- it targets small time users, exploiting uneducated folks for sweet justice boner karma.

I see similar things happening here. It's one thing if someone writes a long post with educated airs and is either actively deceiving people or forwarding ignorance; that sort of stuff is great fodder. But casual comments in an AskAnimals post? An askew sentence about FDR on Facebook? This is low fruit, and while the OP posts are often quite thorough, it often feels like the sub just loves picking on people that just don't know any better or lack the education to appreciate the nuance of the actual event.

Sadly, I don't have any examples. I don't read this subreddit a ton, partially because I've been turned off by sniping at what I guess you could call casuals (to use a gaming term). I dislike this kind of thing.

What could be done to make it better? Two things:

  1. An emphasis on going after posts that are written by people pushing an agenda (news media is great for this), intentionally ignorant yet having the education to know better, or people willfully (or ignorantly) spreading misinformation. These are bad things.

  2. A de-emphasis on anything related to social media, and better yet, a de-emphasis on posts made on Reddit (with maybe the exception of content from actual history-related subs).

I don't think that the purpose of this sub is to educate the public, and it's certainly fun to take jabs at idiots, but I think that things can be better. I think BadHistory should target content that gets seen by lots and lots of people (stuff in History Channel, news media, stupid sentences in films like the Caesar reference in Dark Knight), and avoid stuff that just doesn't matter.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have examples. You can go through my post history and find several of these posts that latch on to a single line or comment and make a whole essay out of them. It's my modus operandi, if you will.

I fully admit I'm biased, but personally, I don't mind when there's a giant post about one thing that a person said wrong that they likely don't know anything about. For the things I like to write about, it's usually something that most people don't know anything about, and I enjoy bringing knowledge about that topic to the fore. I don't do it because I want to mock the original poster - which is where I think the distinction lies between what you're describing and what I do - but because I'm legitimately interested in these lesser known histories, like the history of ice cream or the history of toilets. Because these histories are so infrequently explored anyway, pretty much the only chance to explore them is when someone is wrong, and so I'll pull them over here.

To be very clear, I don't see mocking as the point at all, nor should it be. I see this as fundamentally a sub for education and for people to learn something new. Learning about battles and political history is great, but that's not all history is, even if that's where most of the bad history is. Dresses, toilets, and Mesoamerican alcohol are part of history as well, and I love being able to write about them.

[–]DanDierdorf 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree that your approach is not what he's referring to. You keep on with your good works IMNSHO.

[–]Spartacus_the_trollThe burning of the the Library of Alexandria was from an STD. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be very clear, I don't see mocking as the point at all, nor should it be. I see this as fundamentally a sub for education and for people to learn something new.

This I very much agree with. I'm not a mod but I would guess there's some matter of necessary subjectivity and arbitrarity regarding circlejerking vs education and what is considered rule 4 violation and hard and fast rules won't completely ameliorate cultural problems in the sub. To that end, I'm completely fine with a more autocratic moderation policy if the mods so desire. I know there's no defined boundary between old badphilosophy's circlejerking to the point of being confusing and badscience's "Let's try to help, by correcting," which at least nominally, implies a purpose purely of education for the sake of education. I feel at this point, I'm pretty much just quote mining from this older post, but I've been ruminating for a month and a half and I still haven't decided completely how much snark is tolerable or desirable before it becomes gratuitous and self-congratulatory sneering. So I've been going back to this and this for example for a bit of contrast and I haven't really decided which one I like or dislike more. I think this sub, by its very nature, and due to its userbase, will exhibit some level of polarity content and tone and that may not be avoidable.

Dresses, toilets, and Mesoamerican alcohol are part of history as well, and I love being able to write about them.

Bad Egyptian furniture history and toilet paper are entertaining and difficult to get angry over so I, too like those. That kind of thing also makes for the unprompted discourses that anthropology nerd was talking about. Although I admittedly haven't really taken advantage of that.

[–]LuckyRevenantPelin-El Did Nothing Wrong 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with the de-emphasizing of posts on social media or Reddit, if for no reason other than to weaken arguments that we're a circlejerk sub, but I do think high effort posts should be allowed to critique anything. Furthermore, I don't know how we would actually implement this, since I'm uncomfortable with straight up banning such content.

[–]Warbird36The Americans used Tesla's time machine to fake the moon landing 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

a de-emphasis on posts made on Reddit (with maybe the exception of content from actual history-related subs)

I actually really enjoy the high effort posts that come from Reddit comments, mainly because so many Redditors are so terrlbe at history.

[–]DsagjiiggsScjjigsjsb一柱亭亭獨立時/ 狂瀾怒觸未曾欹/ 誰言東魯斯文喪/贏得千秋永賴之 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you sure it's /r/GrammarFails?

[–]pumpkincatChurchill was a Nazi 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

I sometimes get uncomfortable when everyone jumps on the bandwagon against someone when their history isn't necessarily bad just another side of a legitimate controversy. There are still tons of academic debates surrounding history, it's not set in stone yet, and we basically create a false narrative that there is a definitive answer for everything.

edit: Obviously I'm not talking about holocaust denial or lost causers, fuck those guys. More about when we get into the less offensive and obscure stuff.

edit II: Or volcano gods, everyone knows the mighty volcano is real

[–]Virginianus_sumRobert E. Leesus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think we see more posts than not which are willing to concede when and where a bad history gets something right, but that the problem lies in using those points as a whole crux of an argument. For instance, /u/turtleeatingalderman pointed out in one takedown of Thomas diLorenzo that, yeah, diLorenzo wasn't incorrect with some points, but that building his arguments on those points - while ignoring contradictory, even defeating evidence - resulted in bad history.

But I think we could all agree that, as a sub, we should always strive to put a maximum of effort into our posts. If you say you're tired and/or it's too late, there's no harm in waiting till the next day.

Also:

Or volcano gods, everyone knows the mighty volcano is real

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[–]DanDierdorf 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

someone when their history isn't necessarily bad just another side of a legitimate controversy.

Examples?

[–]International_KBAt least three milli-Cromwells worth of oppression 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In fairness, I've found BH to be generally pretty good when it comes to criticising bad history in its own submissions. Typically someone in the comments will shout when there is genuine academic debate around a topic or the submission does get something badly wrong.

[–]jordanthejq12 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hi, long time lurker here. I feel that the actual breakdowns of exactly what constitutes "bad history" are more often than not equal parts informative and highly entertaining, so those are good and have kept me hooked to this sub.

As far as attacking the posters themselves, it's important to remember that people will repeat what they've been taught, and that the purpose of this sub is first and foremost to educate, not to mock. Some people literally do not see what is wrong with what they say.

(That said, if the poster is an unapologetic racist/sexist/apologist for some inexcusable evil, they're probably going to end up fair game for mockery anyway.)

[–]LuckyRevenantPelin-El Did Nothing Wrong 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I completely agree with disliking flagrant mockery, and feel like that's gotten out of hand lately. Really, it almost feels like it goes against Rule 4 to excessively mock someone.

[–]TitusBluthAttila's dehydrated horse 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

I like that you're opening this discussion. This is probably my favorite sub on reddit (along with /r/badlinguistics and /r/ShitWehraboosSay ) and I'm concerned about the drama apparently occurring behind the scenes.

How are you feeling about BadHistory?

I'm worried about the stuff apparently going on in IRC and over the reports might result in a restrictive moderation policy. I get that this isn't supposed to be /r/badphilosophy (all snark all the time, red panda/pusheen spam and NO LEARNS) but I don't think we're supposed to be /r/AskHistorians' little annex either (if I want dry-ass but well sourced info I'll go over there... or better yet, read the books). I think we have a good balance of snark, learns, snark-based learns and learns-based snark going here.

I understand that there are problem users and there's report abuse going on but it seems to me that a mod policy to control this stuff should be narrowly targeted. There's plenty of non-abusive conversation here that would be chilled if the mods start cracking down willy-nilly.

What makes you stay (or, conversely, has you leaving)?

Free-form, humorous conversation about history. Good OPs are always good but I think the freedom we have in the comments add a lot of value (contrast with /r/AskHistorians).

What would you like to see?

A Small Posts or similar sticky thread for found stuff that doesn't merit a thread by itself or where a poster is involved.

What do you not like to see?

Moratoriums annoy me in principle, especially when they're semi-permanent like we have on Nazi and Confederate topics.

Okay, sometimes stuff gets repetitive but how long are we going to self-censor about Nazi apologia? What if Trump (or whoever) says something crazy about the Confederate battle flag right now? We should have the freedom to discuss this.

How would you fix the things that you feel are broken?

Moderation policies as appropriate to target specific problem behaviors and users, not blanket, "zero tolerance" or similar policies.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

A Small Posts or similar sticky thread for found stuff that doesn't merit a thread by itself or where a poster is involved.

I really like this idea. Ostensibly, this is what the meta threads are for, but obviously that's no longer the case. I'm definitely in favour of this.

[–]smileyman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/badlinguistics has a permanent "small badling thread" that's stickied to the top and changes every month. We could to that.

Or we could have a weekly post that's a meta post that's actually about history like I've long wished. We could make it a learns post and talk historiography, or specific subjects, or about oft-recurring topics like "best badhistory movie", etc. and also use it as a dumping ground for small badhistory.

[–]WearyTunesAll part of the Air Nomad conspiracy. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I've suggested this before too. Just a stickied thread that we could leave up forever with comments sorting by new.

Especially because I see a lot of things that I can tell are bad history but I don't really have the speciality to do them justice here. Also, I'm lazy.

[–]georgeguy007High Chartist Chancellor (was elected tho, like Hitler) 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a pretty long time member of BH, and newly recruited mod (ya!). I just want to say that 'behind the scenes' things are going smoothly. We are all talking and really digging deep into what's best for our members and for us, to make this place great. We don't want to be too rash in any changes, and really want to get a feel for what you guys want too so it's not all behind closed doors. Everyone is optimistically looking for the right answer to this complex puzzle. Basically what I'm saying is that we're working as a team, and our mod team isn't going to end up on SRD knocks on wood

[–]ankhx100stop stalin for time. hue hue hue 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, what sort of drama is happening on IRC?

[–]lolplatypusTwo Popes, a Fuhrer, and a Pizza Place 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay, I'll bite. I'm probably leaving unsubscribed. Here's why:

  • Content has gotten stale for some reason. Last year I was in this sub every day, learning cool new stuff about stuff. Now, I dunno. There have been a handful of really cool posts, but then there have been a lot of posts that look like someone was really reaching to find some BH. Are they technically badhistory? Sure. Doesn anybody care if somebody's fanfiction or whatever isn't historically correct? No. I think a big cause of this problem is the moratorium. I don't know off the top of my head, but I think since June Hitler/Nazi/Wehrmacht Apologia has only been off the moratorium once. Same with Lost Cause stuff too, I believe. Hell, look at October's moratorium, its tagline should read Everything You Loved About September - But Now with 2X As Much Civil War! I get it, we don't want to get on here and read a thousand posts about how Uncle Jerry is an idiot for not knowing about the Stainless Banner or whatever, but holy shit are you actually kidding me? If I had a really high-effort Wehrmacht post dealing with some new way or trying to whitewash the war, the ONLY month I could have posted it in is July. That's insane. Why not just make it a standard that Nazi posts aren't allowed?

  • Whatever this thing is that's going on with people here being jerks, most of us haven't seen it. Apparently that's because it wasn't actually happening here but was in the IRC or over at AH or whatever. So, I guess that's great. It probably means that the mod team is busting their butts keeping us insulated from the drama, which I know at least I appreciate. But what that also means is when I pop onto BH one day, looking for some sexy sexy learning, it's a complete surprise to me to find multiple page long posts indicting us all and condemning us as toxic. I won't lie, that's real off-putting, and is the kind of drama I try to keep as far away from me as possible. I don't know who needs to make their bed, but I know it's not me, so I'm not gonna stick around and get yelled at for it.

Maybe I'll come back later to see how the sub is. I mean I really do love this place, it was a daily visit for me all of last year, and actually accounted for most of my time on reddit. I don't think there's gonna be a huge exodus or anything, and I selfishly hope there isn't, because I would love to come back some day.

EDIT: Might as well put my money where my mouth is. See you guys, thanks for everything!

[–]bladesparkNo sources, no citations, no mercy! 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whatever this thing is that's going on with people here being jerks, most of us haven't seen it.

This is my thought too. It's actually really surreal to see this sub lambasted as "toxic" when it's one of the most polite subs I frequent. I'm a bit baffled at why so many people seem to think that we're apparently filled with insults and mockery. I mean... of course mockery of the bad history itself is here, that's why I'm here, it's entertaining and educational!

I honestly love a good "Holy crap this opinion is so stupid!" rant, a lot of my favorite posts have been like that. But I feel like the rules are already here, already enforced, and already doing just fine to keep the personal insults out of things and the ranting directed at the bad history itself. I'm just... confused at this idea that we're toxic. Smug at times yes, a bit of a circlejerk, of course, but toxic?

[–]buy_a_pork_bunThe Buro of Polits 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's okay if you don't want to smite people, everyone else can. <3 As for badhistory I like the place, personally I prefer high effort takedowns that have a bit of snark but not too much antagonism. Maybe it's an extension of the sparse posts I do in AH, but I do like takedowns that at the very least are informative as opposed to purely for the purposes of mockery.

[–]Virginianus_sumRobert E. Leesus 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'd say that this sub is more or less why I stick around Reddit. I was absent for a couple of months until recently, and it looks like I missed one or two things that happened around here (save for the couple of messages from mods stepping down), but not much seems to have changed.

I think we could benefit from altering the moratorium rules a bit. October's moratorium is basically the same as last month's—maybe we could change it so that (some) things don't appear two months in a row? I think that would help us get a little more content on here. Just an idea.

Other than that, I dunno man. I haven't seen too much incivility in the comments section, though I've seen a couple of comments in the bi-weekly discussion threads mentioning it as a problem. I'd rather it not come down to banning users, but if we gotta, we gotta.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I always appreciate suggestions on the moratorium, and I've been puzzling over how to switch it for a bit. I think removing them entirely isn't necessarily the solution - the fact that these are so often moratoriumed is a sign that people are really not interested in seeing them - but I do agree that the moratorium should change. I'll see what I can do for November.

[–]Virginianus_sumRobert E. Leesus 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Maybe give each item a max of two or three months in a row, then at least a month off? That seems fair enough to me.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I'll do that for November, at least.

[–]Adrayll 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mostly lurk, as I don't have nearly enough background in history to recognize bad history when I see it most of the time, let alone dissect it. I guess I'm subscribed to educate myself about history (and what isn't actually history.)

Also the pedantry. The sweet, sweet pedantry.

[–]traitoryuri 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The main draw of this place to me is learning something new and maybe correcting some of my misconceptions through colorful snark. I'm not a historian myself, but do really enjoy learning the history of small things (the toilet paper effort post way back when comes to mind). It's also great to see some of the really 'out there' bad history like Hawaiian dreadnoughts. What I don't like are short posts on established subjects that don't really bring anything new to the table, or that are overly hostile. I get that Lost Causers and Wehraboos can be quite frustrating, but spouting vitriol isn't going to change anything, and the 'clean wehrmacht' myth has been debunked about a billion times now. Give it a rest unless you found someone claiming they were secretly taking orders from Charlemagne's ghost or something.

[–]thisoneoptimistic 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

the only times I notice "toxic" behavior is when discussing holocaust deniers and the ilk, which in my opinion, shitting on neonazis for being neonazis is hardly toxic!

I really think the toxicity of the sub is overstated.

[–]gwydapllew 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am a long-time lurker. I love long-winded pedantry that pokes at the topic, not the poster. I enjoy the snark, but only as long as it flows with the topic, not just for the sake of being snarky. I think SWS is a better place for the pure venting of Yet Another Versailles Post, but as a subscriber to AH, BH, and SWS, I really have yet to see any drama. (The first I heard about any drama was on the /outoftheloop thread where BH was mentioned.)

[–]Pianotico 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I joined because I thought this sub was about linking to people posting blatantly wrong info in subs where they're being showered in gold/upvotes and their info is being taken as fact, and then showing why they're wrong with detailed sources. But I've only been subbed for a month or two.

[–]smileyman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally I like the long, detailed badhistory posts that are full of learns and pedantic examining of history. It's why I originally got involved in badhistory and those were the types of posts I originally made way back when.

I like drunken ranting type of posts when they're directed against say a tv show or movie or book. I despise them when they're directed against a particular individual (even a public figure), or a particular reddit community. I think those are violations of the "don't be a dick" rule that are at the heart of R4.

I like the jokes and the snarking in comments. I hate the stupid "ayy lmao" type of comments, as they add absolutely nothing.

I also don't really like it when users get ganged up on in the comments. Sometimes that's hard to avoid when they come hunting, but our new rules about not pinging usernames should help.

[–]OMGSPACERUSSIA 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ban everybody.

[–]WearyTunesAll part of the Air Nomad conspiracy.[M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Banned!

[–]TheGreatDainius 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a long time fan of the sub, and agree with a previous poster that this drama is a complete surprise. I respect this community more than nearly any other on the Internet, and I haven't seen the extreme majority of the nastiness going on.

I personally think the moratorium should be toned down. Maybe have it so topics can only be banned once in a two or three month period? No back to back prohibitions? Maybe reduce the number of topics banned at once?

[–]smileyman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a dude that lives in Idaho.

Hahahahah! We're gonna take over the world!! (or at least badhistory).

[–]meeeowD.R.C and the Republic of Congo are not sovereign states. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Used to be my faovurite sub, I was here daily and loved it. Stopped even visiting it the past few months because everything is centered around smugness. Meh, feel like i cant complain since I wasnt much of a contributor but damn I really enjoyed the reading here.

[–]econoquist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am pretty new to the sub, but I am easily annoyed by bad history, bad science, bad statistics-you name it. I feel it is a worthwhile endeavor to push back and not just accept this stuff as inevitable or normal but make a stand for facts to the extent we can.

So far I enjoy it. Would enjoy more call out of politicians or public figures who use their positions to purvey b.s.

[–]andyzaltzman1 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not long ago the only new post for several days was a "take down" of some TRP bullshit. That most certainly isn't what I come to this sub for, I don't care what the local drunk thinks about WW1 anymore that I do a default sub commentator.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Out of curiosity, what do you come to the sub for?

[–]el-b -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

hi