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Q: How do you feel, ethically, about raping mothers, separating them from their children, and then killing them when they're old enough for veal? A: That sounds terrible. If you are talking about humans. Which you are not. -- Head to r/IAMA for some grade-A propaganda from a dairy farmer. (np.reddit.com)

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[–][deleted] 27ポイント28ポイント  (132子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Hi there. I am the dairy farmer in question. Stop hiding over here and come and talk to me. You might learn something.

Edit: or just downvote this comment!!

[–]techn0scho0lbus 89ポイント90ポイント  (8子コメント)

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You might learn something.

Keep in mind that we are not vegans because we don't know much about animals. It's the opposite, we are vegans because we've learned about animals.

[–]Twisty_Tie[S] 48ポイント49ポイント  (76子コメント)

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Look, man. In your own AMA you say, and I quote:

If someone is hovering on the edge of veganism. I assume them must already be a vegetarian. they are too far for me to bring back!

Something tells me that we wouldn't get fair responses to our questions even over there.

(From the look of it, we're not even safe over here. I guess I'm a "lunatic.")

[–]janewashingtonvegan 100ポイント101ポイント  (28子コメント)

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The subreddit is called /r/vegan and it is open to all. Your definition of hide is different from mine.

But given that you define being slaughtered as a 'career path,' I suspect we define many things differently.

[–]catjugglerlevel 5 vegan 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Your definition of hide is different from mine

cow pun?

[–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (26子コメント)

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That phrase really seems to have got at you. I said it just to explain how a dairy cow can then go on to being a beef cow. That the two industries are not mutually exclusive. I didnt intend to trivialize the nature of the death of an animal by suggesting that is was starting a new job. I am sure most of the readers were aware of that. I do not define slaughter as a career. I define it as the ending of an animals life.

[–]techn0scho0lbus 66ポイント67ポイント  (0子コメント)

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That phrase really seems to have got at you.

What gets to me is that you accuse us of using loaded terms when it's pretty clear that you are trying to coax everyone with euphemisms. Between us, you are the one misusing language.

[–]justin_timeforcakeRadical Preachy Vegan 39ポイント40ポイント  (20子コメント)

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By using that euphemism you do trivialize the killing of those animals though. If you don't define slaughter as a career, then please stop referring to it that way.

[–]janewashingtonvegan 42ポイント43ポイント  (3子コメント)

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Thank you for the clarification.

It didn't get at me. I thought it was an exceptional and darkly hilarious example of industry obfuscation. I like moments that reveal how some farmers think of the animals they use.

[–]Fallom_TO 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

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Do you have a blog or newsletter or something that I can sign up for?

Edit: How is this controversial? I've never seen her post a lame reply, and her writing is concise and frequently brilliant. My comment was meant to show respect. Text ambiguity perhaps?

[–]janewashingtonvegan 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

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No, the only other thing I write beside reddit posts is Amazon book reviews. Thanks!

[–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

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You got an upvote from me at least, for I appreciate your interest in starting a discussion.

[–]KerSanvegan 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

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I've done so, but we're fairly strict about the rule of no participation on this subreddit. People like this get offended if we actually express our opinions on a public forum.

[–]janewashingtonvegan 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Yeah, if we have many people go over and ask questions, it will be used against us. And if we don't go, our friendly cow career counselor will claim we are hiding.

A perfect no-win situation (albeit, better than the one faced by a cow contemplating a mid-life career transition).

[–][deleted] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

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OOH FOUND THE VEGAN

/s

[–]obscurityknocks 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Come hang out in /r/vegan more. You might learn something.

[–]placate 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

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OK, I'll engage you. Thousands of times, you've seen the trauma experienced by cows when their calves are taken away. You would have also seen the video posted in the IAMA thread of the dairy cow reunited with her calf, which directly contradicts your assertion that they forget immediately.

You can also imagine, I'm sure, the intense pain, suffering and fear experienced by both veal calves and dairy calves when sent to be killed.

My questions is this. How do you justify causing this intense yet entirely unnecessary pain to thousands of animals every year? Would treat a dog or a cat like this? Why do you think you are a good person, when you are responsible for causing massive amounts of pain and suffering?

[–]catjugglerlevel 5 vegan 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

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Hey, fellow vegan here and I'm wondering how extreme this cow/calf thing is. Is it because they're too young so the cow is more upset, or would it be upset later on? Are cows more upset than other mammals? I ask because I foster for a shelter and often have puppies or kittens, sometimes with their moms as well. Sometimes they don't like to be separated, sometimes they don't care, sometimes they actually prefer it, and eventually it's in their best interest. But, of course if you're a calf going to slaughter, it's never in your best interest. With the dogs and cats, they get over it in like a day. Does it take longer for cows? I don't know anything about them.

[–]placate 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Yeah I dunno, but I do know that at least in the short term, the days of separation are incredibly traumatic. Plus the video linked in the IAMA thread showed that the cow separated from her calf both remembered it and retained a very strong emotional bond (immediately ran to it to nuzzle, comfort it). I'm not sure how long the break was though.

It's certainly possible many cows forget quite quickly and happily go on with their lives. But I'm very skeptical about arguments that animals don't suffer just because they don't show outward signs of trauma. Photos of prisoners arriving at Auschwitz show people apparently lined up calmly, not visibly screaming/shouting/moaning/shaking. Yet we know they were going through intense suffering. Same often applies to animals I think (think of chickens in battery cages).

[–]fivetonsofflax 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

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I can't say how the mothers feel but I do know that it's VERY bad for kittens and I assume puppies as well to be taken away too soon. They will fail to develop certain healthy behaviour, especially social behaviour. My partner and I have seen a couple kittens who were taken away too early and actually had a distinctive weird look to them, like their faces were a tiny bit underdeveloped (close set eyes, pointier nose).

Humans are the same way, if you take a young child to a new family they are capable of forming new familial bonds and "getting over it" if it's a good situation. But no matter the context there is a threshold where without maternal care or an appropriate substitute there is irrevocable damage being done.

If I had to speculate, I would say the degree of emotional reaction depends on how family oriented the species is. Cats are not big on living in groups, in normal circumstances, so while mothers and children can strongly bond if kept together I feel they're more likely to accept it if their children eventually "move out".

[–]Sojourner_Truth 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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On the kittens thing, if they were separated and made ready for adoption early, and if that process involved having them neutered or spayed a little bit on the early side, it's the halted hormone production that leaves them with smaller skulls and faces.

[–]fivetonsofflax 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I can't say how the mothers feel but I do know that it's VERY bad for kittens and I assume puppies as well to be taken away too soon. They will fail to develop certain healthy behaviour, especially social behaviour. My partner and I have seen a couple kittens who were taken away too early and actually had a distinctive weird look to them, like their faces were a tiny bit underdeveloped (close set eyes, pointier nose).

Humans are the same way, if you take a young child to a new family they are capable of forming new familial bonds and "getting over it" if it's a good situation. But no matter the context there is a threshold where without maternal care or an appropriate substitute there is irrevocable damage being done.

If I had to speculate, I would say the degree of emotional reaction depends on how family oriented the species is. Cats are not big on living in groups, in normal circumstances, so while mothers and children can strongly bond if kept together I feel they're more likely to accept it if their children eventually "move out".

[–]TChuff 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I'm just coming into this so I'm not sure what's going on, but why don't you stick around here. You just might learn something.

[–]AnxietyAttack2013Radical Preachy Vegan 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Upvoting to try and have legitimate discussions with you. We might be able to learn a lot from each other.

[–]Chicken_of_Dixie 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Learning something is what got me into veganism in the first place. My grandfather and great grandfather were raised on a small dairy farm so I knew some about it already (at least how it used to be).

You make a good point with the first dairy farmer. I agree with that. Those times are over and in modern society, its taste preference over actual necessity for what ever nutrients milk has to offer.

Plus almond milk is really tasty. Didn't know they had nipples but they do!

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    You should be ashamed of yourself. History will remember you scornfully, like the slave drivers of forgone days.