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Mike Hearn banned from #bitcoin-dev Sept/29 (archive.is)

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[–]jrmxrf 33ポイント34ポイント  (9子コメント)

Seriously /r/bitcoin? You are mad about censoring threads here but when somebody gets banned elsewhere for expressing his opinion then you are cheering?

He didn't even say anything offensive.

[–]muyuu 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

/r/bitcoin doesn't have a one true opinion on anything. There are many people here with many opinions.

[–]jrmxrf 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

Sure, it's just that when I wrote this, 90% of comments was outraged at Mike and not at the the ban.

[–]muyuu 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

I noticed there's a big split between US and non-US in this issue. Something like 75%-25% either way. So it makes a big difference what time do you post something.

Obviously that also counts for the sockpuppets, so it's hard to tell exactly.

[–]Guy_Tell 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Interesting. I was suspecting this. US is rather pro-XT & pro Gavin Hearn right ?

[–]muyuu 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

It would seem so, though it's also divided. And it's hard to know exactly because of brigading/sockpuppets. But there is always a swing in the pro-XT direction around evening time in the US (sleepy hours in Europe). Obviously this tell us nothing about their true size, they'd increase the brigading as much as necessary to have presence. In reality it doesn't matter that much what angsty 20 year olds think about these ultimately technical issues, but sadly they took it to the terrain of populist politics and we have to deal with it.

[–]ilikebrans 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow! I thought those other accounts were just paid shills. Are there any links to when Reddit is accessed by what parts of the world?

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

    [–]jrmxrf 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Very interesting observation.

    [–]SoCo_cpp 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You must have never IRC'd before. Trolls get the ban. He was warned and kept on. There is no sympathy.

    [–]giszmo 33ポイント34ポイント  (13子コメント)

    No fan of hearn's style but that's excessive. Don't make him a martyr. People on IRC should know how to individually mute others without pulling the boss-card.

    [–]dellintelbitcoin 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Ok now its gotten to the point where i feel like people may be overreacting regarding Mike Hearn. In the end his personality shouldnt matter, but what code he writes, and how he actually contributes. Dont that seem fair?

    [–]DakotaChiliBeans 24ポイント25ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Most of the devs are passive aggressive, Hearn is simply aggressive, which is worse, don't know.

    [–]testing1567 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    18:12 CodeShark_ We're already getting pushback for the "no philosophy nor politics in the bitcoin-dev mailing list" - this will not work until we've created a functioning bitcoin political philosophy list and can have more of a "we think you'll find more relevant discussion there" attitude rather than a "we don't want you here" attitude

    18:13 jgarzik CodeShark_, don't be overly sensitive. push back is inevitable. the list needs to be productive for productive contributors.

    18:13 wumpus someone else could also create a bitcoin political philosophy list, why would 'we' (whoever that is) have to do everything

    18:14 jgarzik CodeShark_, the two-step plan is sound

    18:14 wumpus what matters for us is a useable development list

    18:14 stonecoldpat i heard there was a bitcoin mailing list that exists already?

    18:14 kanzure jgarzik: fwiw i think your summary of the preivous conversations was less good than your usual summaries. you missed a lot!

    18:15 kanzure CodeShark_: yes i think that's a reasonable approach, but also one quick way around that is to nominate recent threads for inclusion for pre-seeding (or re-play)

    18:15 CodeShark_ I've already offered to help create this list, wumpus

    18:15 jgarzik kanzure, That should motivate you to reply with a better summary! :)

    18:16 CodeShark_ Moreover, warren had requested bitcoin-discuss from linuxfoundation

    18:17 kanzure jgarzik: hardly; i think you could do better by just linking to the recent conversations in the irc logs instead.

    18:17 jgarzik kanzure, burden of searching is too high. they are poorly organized and annoying to link to

    18:18 kanzure what would make that easier for you/others?

    18:18 CodeShark_ jgarzik: it's not about being overly sensitive - it's about keeping everyone happy as best we can so that we can all continue doing what we like to do

    18:19 jgarzik CodeShark_, That is the goal. But like perfection it is unattainable, only approached. My point was that there will always be complaints from somebody; those complaints need to be weighted.

    18:20 CodeShark_ moreover, I think bitcoin political philosophy deserves to be discussed...and I think we can accomplish two objectives here

    18:21 kanzure not sure if linuxfoundation will want to host a mailing list that essentially amounts to cypherpunks- but great if they're okay with that

    18:21 jgarzik "already getting pushback" is therefore a bit over-stated. There was one complaint from a non contributor, assuming you exclude hearn's not-really-related reply.

    18:21 hearn how was it not related

    18:22 jgarzik hearn, conflates Bitcoin Core and list admin & policy, and mistakenly paints Wladimir as a leader rather than a collator-of-already-ACKd-PRs

    18:22 hearn i don't even see the issue,really. looking at the recent threads they all appear to be related to proposed protocol changes, libbitcoinconsensus, meetings, BIPs, etc

    18:23 hearn jgarzik: see the issue? i replied pointing out an alternative solution to the problem you see and you already consider my reply to be somewhat offtopic?

    18:23 CodeShark_ it comes down to tact :)

    18:24 jgarzik Anybody, even a bot, could execute the Bitcoin Core leadership model. if (have_ACKS) merge else dont. Disagreeing with that philosophy is fine... But it is incorrect to paint or try and saddle Wladimir with "leader of Bitcoin Core" mantle, and then blame Wladimir for some perceived lack of action.

    18:24 morcos Thank you jgarzik

    18:24 hearn jgarzik: that's clearly not the case, and you know it. otherwise BIP101 would be merged already. i'd ack it, gavin would ack it, a few others would - done

    18:24 jgarzik I did one of the Bitcoin Core releases

    18:24 kanzure jgarzik: wladimir has on a number of occassions taken action by not merging something, but this can be perceived as inaction in some cases

    18:24 jgarzik Wladimir is release manager and - god bless him - the main person that manages the morass of github PRs - doing our collective jobs for us

    18:25 morcos hearn are you really unable to translate "(have)

    18:25 jgarzik IMO Wladimir does too much PR'ing and the rest should pitch in

    18:25 jgarzik and free him for real coding

    18:25 wumpus right, list policy has nothing to do with bitcoin core's codebase. Even if I felt like it, I don't have the time to get involved with moderation there.

    18:25 morcos sorry.. "(have_ACKS)" as short hand for "have ACKS and no significant NACKS"

    18:25 CodeShark_ of the core committers, I'd say Wladimir is the least political

    18:25 maaku kanzure: I believe warren got some pushback from LF regarding the mailing list split. not sure the details of that though

    18:25 hearn morcos: that's not what jeff just said. with such a rule you suddenly need a definition of "significant" and the job cannot be done by a bot

    18:26 hearn i mean come on. this is absurd.

    18:26 wumpus "has ACKs and doesn't have the entire community in a fight"

    18:26 jgarzik hearn, I understand -- and even agree in some cases -- how inaction translate into a decision or action.

    18:26 kanzure maaku: i still think "direct all the excess mailing list traffic to cypherpunks" is a good plan, heh

    18:26 jgarzik hearn, that has problems

    18:26 hearn maintainership is not automatable. technical management is a skill

    18:26 jgarzik and deserves criticism

    18:26 jgarzik nonetheless, it's not wladimir's fault or responsibility

    18:27 hearn i'm sorry but you cannot have a situation where there is only one implementation, where that implementation has one guy making the decisions, and then expect people to not engage in argument and debate about decisions being made or not made

    18:27 jgarzik hearn, sure

    18:27 maaku hearn: wumpus does not make all the decisions here

    18:27 hearn look at how many block size threads there are. obviously a lot of people believe (rightly or wrongly) that by engaging in discussion they can affect the outcome

    18:27 CodeShark_ see why we need a bitcoin political philosophy forum?

    18:27 jgarzik hearn, and that has nothing to do with list admin

    18:27 wumpus anyhow, please get a room for the meta-level discussion, it is off-topic here. This channel is about bitcoin core development and nothing more.

    18:27 hearn if this is not wanted, he can end these threads by saying "I have made a decision, it isn't going to change, further discussion is pointless"

    18:28 hearn people would take the hint

    18:28 maaku hearn: that wouldn't end the discussion

    18:28 hearn it would move it elsewhere

    18:28 jgarzik hearn, list admins were going to be me, btcdrak, and a couple others, don't recall who. the idea is not the same set of bitcoin.git commiters but mix it up.

    18:28 CodeShark_ There are many unresolved issues that are not technical...and until they are resolved we'll continue suffering incursions

    18:28 maaku hearn: yeah, it would eject wumpus as lead developer

    18:28 hearn maaku: what would?

    18:29 jgarzik sipa is lead developer :)

    18:29 wumpus then take the hint, and take this away from here

    18:29 jgarzik wumpus is lead merger :)

    18:29 maaku hearn: him throwing his weight around and deciding controversial issues

    I assume the ban happens here

    18:30 jgarzik wumpus, oh good grief, don't escalate dude

    18:30 CodeShark_ boo

    18:31 jgarzik wumpus, just when things had quieted down

    18:31 jgarzik wumpus, Please remove ban.

    18:31 wumpus and stop this personal talk about me.

    18:31 jgarzik wumpus, unavoidable

    18:31 CodeShark_ Please remove ban, wumpus

    18:35 zooko sigh

    18:37 wumpus he's welcome back if he just starts talking about development, instead of questioning the project all the time

    18:48 jcorgan well, if his goal was to disrupt the normal goings on in here and bring things to a halt, he succeeded :-(

    [–]eragmus 56ポイント57ポイント  (80子コメント)

    Okay, I'm finally going to express myself clearly because frustration has been building up to such a point that I'm frankly becoming really depressed and disillusioned with the way things are going. I have tried so hard to give Mike the benefit of the doubt, but I feel now that maybe it really is pointless? Things are getting worse and worse.

    With all due respect to Mike Hearn's past accomplishments (BitcoinJ, Lighthouse, Merge Avoidance, etc.), I am seriously freaking annoyed lately by his behavior. He knows so much better (obviously), yet he insists on acting like an arrogant jerk who couldn't care less if Bitcoin burns to the ground, just as long as he gets his way and regardless of how many qualified experts disagree with him.

    And, when he speaks, he makes himself out to be a victim all the time ("oh everyone assassinates my character!" -- no Mike, your immature behavior does that all by itself!). I mean, how egotistical can someone be? Get over yourself, Mike. You are not Satoshi, and you need to learn to work together in a team and collaborate and compromise. This also means not in public open view telling a representative of the Chinese mining pools that, if they don't like the 20 MB block size proposal, they can get lost from Bitcoin and make their own China-specific altcoin -- yes, this actually happened.

    The cherry on top? Just 2 days ago, he even clearly implied he would use checkpointing in Bitcoin XT to try to force the network to follow his way. Pure maliciousness! Without regard for Bitcoin's health and cohesion.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mqvbp/mike_hearn_its_easily_possible_for_a_sufficiently/cvi9rqs?context=3

    I'm so sick of reading how he, in one way or another, detracts from bitcoin's development these days, and has turned dev into some Kafkaesque drama filled nightmare.

    Some people are busy innovating and trying to legitimately quantum leap the Bitcoin protocol (Lightning payment channels, Sidechains, Confidential Transactions, CoinJoin, r/JoinMarket, r/DropZone, all the innovative stuff presented in Montreal Scaling Bitcoin.. like Bitcoin NG sharding, and much more that I'm missing!).

    But Mike? He'd rather raise hell over the fact that the vast majority of technical experts disagree with callously raising block size by 20x or 8x in one go without real legitimate transparent supporting data (Muneeb Ali mentioned dozens of times to use Planet Lab, not run simulations), and more importantly disagree with jumping to XT (and hence, ditching most of Bitcoin's real developer talent responsible for its upkeep).

    The worst part? All of the above is happening IN SPITE of the fact that Gavin at the Montreal conference generously agreed to compromise with the other developers on a scalability proposal (apparently due to be released shortly).

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mo3ft/several_blocksize_bips_have_now_been_discussed_at/cvhu8v4?context=1

    [–]BTCisGod 11ポイント12ポイント  (30子コメント)

    Perhaps he is falling on his sword to get proper governance in Bitcoin.

    Have himself expelled to expose the power structure operating over /u/theymos's preferred code repository in contrast to the ideal: "as a decentralized system it is the bitcoin using public who will decide how bitcoin grows."

    There is nothing in Bitcoin's Governance Document: Contributing to Bitcoin Core that allows one core developer to expel another core developer from the consensus process.

    [–]alexgorale 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

    Hearn should get off the cross.

    Even if he had a legitimate point like all of his apologists claim he is doing it wrong.

    コメントをもっと表示する (17 返事)

      [–]MinersFolly 12ポイント13ポイント  (13子コメント)

      And people wonder why I call it Bitcoin-eXtra Tantrum. That's all it is folks, an egoist that doesn't know how to work with others. Every programmer has a primadonna hidden inside, wanting to be treated like a personal god, but most have the maturity to keep it under control.

      That is, most people except Mike.

      I haven't really liked any of Mike Hearns proposals anyway, they all tended to reek of a personal agenda, some of which I suspected was being fueled by the very forces that don't want to see Bitcoin succeed.

      I'd love to know who's secretly bankrolling Hearn, because it sure 'effing feels like something shadowy going on here...

      [–]PeaceCoin 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

      who's secretly bankrolling Hearn

      Wise man say: follow the money and you will find answers.

      [–]throwaway902148298 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

      who's secretly bankrolling Hearn

      Wise man say: follow the money and you will find answers.

      It's not a secret!

      Mike Hearn is an Andreessen Horowitz’ “developer in residence”

      https://a16z.com/2015/07/27/native-bitcoin-apps-open-source-developer-hearn/

      [–]throwaway5839284 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

      When did he leave qinetiq?

      [–]itistoday 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Mike Hearn is an Andreessen Horowitz’ “developer in residence”, part of an effort to engage open source communities and especially focus on native applications built on top of bitcoin.

      So they're paying him to engage with the community and focus on native apps.

      I find it hard to see how "hostile takeover of Bitcoin" fits into that? Did A16z pay for that too?

      コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

        [–]HostFat 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

        (due to be released shortly)

        So, if this will not come, what will you do?

        [–]eragmus 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Great question: I will reconsider my assumptions and beliefs.

        If results are delivered, good. If not, we'll have to see.

        Here's Gavin's post and my reply to him:

        [–]untried_captain 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well said. It's obvious you've been holding that in for a while now. Mike absolutely should know better and that's what makes it so aggravating. He's pushing this persecution complex as if he's being treated unfairly and exiled for being some kind of maverick, when the fact of the matter is he's exiled himself by refusing to work with anyone else.

        [–]Future_Prophecy 1ポイント2ポイント  (26子コメント)

        Hearn is completely out of control and thinks the world revolves around him. Both sides of the blocksize debate can agree on that.

        [–]todu 37ポイント38ポイント  (25子コメント)

        Hearn is completely out of control and thinks the world revolves around him. Both sides of the blocksize debate can agree on that.

        It's easy for both sides of the blocksize debate to agree on that, when the /r/bitcoin main moderator continuously censors and deletes one of the sides' comments and posts.

        Most of the users who are knowledgeable about the blocksize debate have already either been banned in this subreddit, or moved to other uncensored subreddits on their own initiative. We're talking about thousands of people.

        [–]eragmus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That doesn't make any sense. XT was censored, period. BIP 101 (which discusses XT's underlying proposal to increase block size) was not, nor is anything about Hearn. I don't agree about XT being censored either, but the facts are the facts (that only 'XT' was censored).

        [–]manny_big32 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You had me until "we're talking about thousands of people"... This sub has been only in the 20k daily unique visits for about 8 months, well before the latest blocksize debate.. most users seen here for 2015 is about 4-500 at a time, unless a story transcends or crosses over to another sub and brings in some users.. seems unlikely the latest blocksize debate, alone, has scared away "thousands" from r/bitcoin.

        Otherwise agreed.

        [–]Anduckk -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        How come you guys can't just get over with the "censorship"? Don't you know that these things will die without moderation? We don't need to make same mistakes people have done earlier. Learn from the past and don't think that moderation-free (aka. "censorship free") discussion areas are a good thing. They will die fast.

        [–]JordanLeDoux 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Policing behavior is moderation. Policing ideas is censorship. Do not attempt to say they are the same thing, they aren't.

        コメントをもっと表示する (19 返事)

          [–]pitchbend -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'm really surprised and glad that your post isn't being downvoted by the xt cheerleaders. Hearn is turning into a liability for the project and it's a shame.

          コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

            [–]eatmybitcorn 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

            No wonder Mr Antonopoulos left this sub. The hive minded banal bantering on Mike Hearn is sickening.

            [–]pitchbend 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Do you remember when the hive mind turned instead against anyone who didn't like XT? good times.

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]societal_scourge 15ポイント16ポイント  (57子コメント)

              I wonder if it has anything to do with him claiming he coined the term "Simplified Payment Verification" today. SPV is from the bitcoin white paper in case there's any doubt that he's lying through his teeth.

              [–]smartfbrankings 26ポイント27ポイント  (16子コメント)

              Maybe Mike is Satoshi, and that's why he's so mad about not following Satoshi's vision.

              [–]rorlrkfirke 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It makes so much sense now!

              [–]phantomcircuit 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Maybe Mike is Satoshi, and that's why he's so mad about not following Satoshi's vision.

              aahahaaahhaaa

              [–]herzmeister 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Really hoping one of these days the real Satoshi will be putting a single post out there "I am not Mike Hearn."

              コメントをもっと表示する (12 返事)

                [–]GibbsSamplePlatter 30ポイント31ポイント  (8子コメント)

                He kept bugging Wlaad(wumpus) to "do something" about making decisions. Guess he got one.

                [–]Noosterdam 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

                Mike had the gall to beg for the right to question the Core governance structure. Wlad did the logical thing and effectively said, go do your own thing and stop bothering us.

                What doesn't make sense is to then castigate Mike for doing just that. If objecting to Core governance is banned, and creating an alternative to Core is an "attack," that is tantamount to total control by the Core maintainers.

                [–]GibbsSamplePlatter 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I'd agree in the irc case if he wasn't pooping all over the email threads about technical issues.

                [–]rezzme 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                This is a good point.

                [–]BTCisGod 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                An IRC expulsion? This shows real leadership.

                [–]majorpaynei86 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                ROFL...now Hearn can be a 'benevolent dictator' of jack shit

                [–]societal_scourge 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Trolling will only get you so far on #bitcoin-dev.

                [–]Noosterdam 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                So what if he mistakenly claimed he coined a term, or an abbreviation, that anyone who has read the whitepaper could trivially correct him on at any time? It's not like coining a term is a big deal anyway. This being bandied about as grounds for a ban is insane.

                [–]societal_scourge 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Turns out he wasn't banned for lying about SPV. He was actually banned for trolling and piss poor behavior.

                [–]Digitsu 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

                I found that statement quite hilarious when I read it, yes. I think that the responses have been quite cordial considering, showing the professionalism of the others on the list.

                [–]NaturalBornHodler 3ポイント4ポイント  (21子コメント)

                Source or I'm calling bullshit.

                [–]prezTrump[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (18子コメント)

                https://archive.is/Nxoe8#selection-159.673-171.120

                [–]_______SFYL_________ 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

                /u/mike_hearn, 2015:

                I coined the term SPV so I know exactly what it means, and bitcoinj implements it, as does BreadWallet (the other big SPV implementation).

                Satoshi Nakamoto, 2009:

                Simplified Payment Verification

                Wonder if he actually is so deluded he thinks it was his creation.

                [–]zcc0nonA 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                Obviously, he thinks he is Satoshi.
                Hell, maybe he was.

                [–]a7437345 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                He just gave himself away in the heat of the moment!

                [–]btc5000 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Many people confess because of hubris

                [–]kegslap 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                somebody wrote the whitepaper you know.

                [–]NaturalBornHodler 19ポイント20ポイント  (12子コメント)

                Well fuck.

                I coined the term SPV so I know exactly what it means, and bitcoinj implements it, as does BreadWallet (the other big SPV implementation).

                No, you didn't. "Simplified Payment Verification" is section 8 in the Bitcoin whitepaper that you like to cite so much.

                WTF Mike? That bullshit might fly on reddit, but did you forget that you're talking to other developers?

                [–]prezTrump[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

                Well, he was called on it in the dev list and AFAIK he didn't reply. But then again he might have been banned from there as well not late after that.

                [–]maaku7Mark Friedenbach - Bitcoin Expert 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

                The mailing list is not moderated at this time.

                [–]prezTrump[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Oh ok, thanks for confirming.

                [–]muyuu 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Haha you're confused because you assume Mike Hearn has any semblance of integrity. He doesn't! he would just drop these lies and run away.

                [–]itistoday 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                Seems moderated to me? I'm signed up for it, sent a message about 30 minutes ago, and it still hasn't shown up. Edit: I'm guessing it might just be because it's my first message to the linuxfoundation bitcoin-dev list.

                [–]maaku7Mark Friedenbach - Bitcoin Expert 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

                Correct, I believe there is a moderation queue for the first message only, just to filter out spam.

                [–]imsaguy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                I believe its the first few.

                [–]wtogami 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                No, read the intro, its automated greylisting.

                [–]Noosterdam 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                There's a difference in nuance between an SPV wallet and some other uses of the term, so there is room for subtlety. I don't see how someone claiming they coined an obviously common term from before their time automatically is assumed to mean the dumbest thing it could possibly mean. Mike may be many things, but he's not an idiot. And it's not like coining a term would be some huge point of pride or claim of authority anyway, so a charitable interpretation would take this as nothing more than an offhand comment that seems difficult to interpret.

                If anything, this willingness to slam him over something so petty shows the pitchforks are out. Otherwise something of substance would be quoted.

                [–]SundoshiNakatoto 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Unlesss... freudian slip and he is Satoshi?

                [–]min_max 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Clearly he coined the abbreviation of SPV. No one before him thought to simplify the "Simplified Payment Verification" down to 3 letters and thus he is a genius.

                /s

                [–]alamantha 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Except he didn't even coin the abbreviation: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=125.msg1149#msg1149

                Bitcoin with over 100,000 nodes. ha ha. Dream on. Oh and centralised services for micro-payments? How terrible!

                (Fixed link)

                [–]UlyssesSKrunk 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

                コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                  [–]HostFat 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  He was probably full of angry, he didn't coined the SPV, but he did developed it.

                  There is a big difference between simple words and making real things :)

                  If today you can use a mobile wallet or a light client as Multibit, without trusting any single company owned server, you know why.

                  [–]what-the-____ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Maybe Mike's Satoshi (or one of the Satoshi's).

                  [–]PastaArt 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  What we are seeing is manipulation. If anyone wants to see how its done, go watch a documentary called "The Pipe". All you have to do is find an issue and then use it as a wedge. Use points of leverage and people in "authority" (in this case moderators or those who control key websites) to further drive the wedge.

                  The solution is to simply rise above the crap and recognize and act as mature as possible. Yes people cannot agree. Yes it looks bad, but the community will find the solutions and grow stronger and wiser.

                  [–]Bitcointagious 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  The wedge issue is bitcoin scalability, more specifically, block size. A developer has exploited this once-united community by drawing a line in the sand and saying "either you want bitcoin to scale, or you want bitcoin to die". A lot of people fell for it and helped the developer drive a deep wedge into the community. Now people are waking up to how much damage has been caused. We must grow stronger and wiser.

                  [–]mjkeating 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  It's reasonable to think that the scalability of bitcoin is at an urgent point and to act on that conviction. The 'wedge' can just as validly be said to come from the viciousness of those opposing said developer.

                  [–]Richy_T 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Yep. People can have differences of opinion. It's when something is done to drive a wedge that the community starts to be divided rather than simply disagreeing. Steps like banning posts and users. Make no mistake, things were warm, perhaps a little heated before then but at least there was a dialog.

                  [–]Antandre 14ポイント15ポイント  (25子コメント)

                  he's welcome back if he just starts talking about development, instead of questioning the project all the time

                  Even wumpus is sick of his shit.

                  [–]go1111111 13ポイント14ポイント  (22子コメント)

                  If you look at the full logs (which you can't see from that link), you'll see this shortly after Wlad banned Mike:

                  • ChanServ removes channel operator status from wumpus ...
                  • ChanServ gives channel operator status to jgarzik
                  • jgarzik removes ban on !@84-75-195-4.dclient.hispeed.ch ...
                  • wumpus (~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus) has left
                  • sipa (~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024) has left
                  • gmaxwell (greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001) has left

                  So it looks like Jeff took mod privilages away from Wlad,(no evidence of this) unbanned Mike, then Wlad, Pieter, and Greg all left #bitcoin-dev immediately afterward.

                  Perhaps the start of a fork of the #bitcoin-dev IRC channel?

                  [–]btcdrak 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Incorrect. Standard practice is for operators to remain as normal unprivileged users unless they need to use OP privs, then they instruct ChanServ (which has the access list), to give them OP. You perform the action, then you instruct ChanServ to de-op you. That's what happens, if you follow other bans you'll see the same pattern of ChanServ granting OP, the OP banning the user, then ChanServ deopping the user.

                  [–]imsaguy 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  learntoirc

                  Step 1) Realize that Chanserv removes chan op status from * is a generic statement and doesn't indicate who did what other than someone with an +o access line requested wumpus have the flag removed. Only the person requesting and the person being acted on know who did what. Step 2) Review #bitcoin-dev access rules and see that wumpus still has his access line and that it hasn't been modified in over 80 weeks. This means nothing has been taken away. Step 3) Apologize for wearing tinfoil hat outside of your basement.

                  [–]go1111111 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  You are correct that I misread the IRC logs. I'll edit my post with corrections.

                  [–]imsaguy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Admitting it is the first step. Props for amending your statement for accuracy.

                  [–]_______SFYL_________ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                   -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Entry Nickname/Host          Flags
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- ----- ---------------------- -----
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 1     Xunie                  +Aeiortv (OP) [modified 3y 31w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 2     gavinandresen          +AFRefiorstv [modified 3y 35w 0d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 3     nanotube               +AFRefiorstv [modified 3y 45w 3d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 4     magicaltux             +o [modified 4y 33w 2d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 5     tcatm                  +o [modified 4y 33w 2d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 6     nameless|              +o [modified 3y 31w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 7     ArtForz                +o [modified 4y 33w 2d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 8     gribble                +Oo [modified 4y 25w 3d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 9     OneFixt                +o [modified 3y 31w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 10    BlueMatt               +o [modified 3y 37w 6d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 11    jgarzik                +AFRefiorstv [modified 3y 31w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 12    UukGoblin              +o [modified 3y 31w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 13    nathan7                +o [modified 3y 31w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 14    mindspillage           +ARefiorstv (MANAGER) [modified 3y 33w 1d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 15    sipa1024               +Aeiortv (OP) [modified 2y 39w 5d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 16    coingenuity            +o [modified 2y 34w 5d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 17    SomeoneWeird           +o [modified 2y 34w 4d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 18    wumpus                 +o [modified 1y 31w 4d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 19    gwillen                +o [modified 1y 20w 6d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 20    midnightmagic          +o [modified 1y 20w 6d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- 21    jcorgan                +o [modified 1y 20w 6d ago]
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- ----- ---------------------- -----
 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- End of #bitcoin-dev FLAGS listing.

                  [–]NLNico 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  I am glad magicaltux can still operate #bitcoin-dev from prison.

                  [–]laisee -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  This really starts to look like a hard rift in bitcoin dev between those associated with blockstream (alternate payment network related to BTC) and those connected with payment companies and wallets(Core BTC payment network).

                  Various personalities aside, this could be an ugly d.i.v.o.r.c.e coming up ... NOT a good thing for the Bitcoin network, but if the commercial interests are not compatible then separation might be best.

                  [–]intrepod 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  A divorce is the best thing that could happen to the network now. Mike needs to stop mucking about or get lost.

                  [–]zveda -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  How interesting.

                  [–]Noosterdam 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  "The project" means Core with its current governance framework. Like I keep saying, these guys have circular reasoning down to an art.

                  [–]magicalinternetmoney 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  God forbid, I forgot it's against the rules to not agree with everybody else's opinions.

                  [–]110101002 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Looks like le reddit army is coming to #bitcoin-dev for some feel-good armchair activism harassment.

                  10:38 < Naphex> jgarzik: enjoy sinking with the shiteheads you're supporting

                  [–]rorlrkfirke 16ポイント17ポイント  (33子コメント)

                  Mike Hearn has been making an absolute ass out of himself on the mailing list. I have a feeling XT supporters will downvote the shit out of this stuff since it makes Mike look bad.

                  Mike is trying to claim he coined the term SPV (it's in the original bitcoin whitepaper) to win arguments, he's injecting politics and unrelated technical issues into a discussion about a totally different BIP, being incredibly rude and using logical fallacies to attack other people's ideas and criticisms. He's leaving a pretty nasty legacy for himself: he practically never made a good contribution to Bitcoin Core, spent more time thinking of ways to subvert privacy and fungibility than preserving it, and now he's going out by being as toxic, non-constructive and hurtful to the community as possible.

                  Mike Hearn should just leave. Nobody wants you around, virtually nobody trusts you or your fork, and you have zero credibility left.

                  [–]StarMaged 32ポイント33ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  Mike Hearn should just leave. Nobody wants you around, virtually nobody trusts you or your fork, and you have zero credibility left.

                  No. No he shouldn't. I know that it is extremely unpopular for me to say that, but I would like to point out that Luke-jr found himself in a similar situation back during the P2SH debate. Gavin was irritated with Luke to the point that Gavin said something similar about Luke: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.0

                  That is a fantastic read, and I recommend everyone check it out. It's a classic reminder that we've been in this situation before.

                  Sure, Luke is still somewhat crazy, but he really toned things down after that and proved himself to be a great asset to bitcoin's development. I hope that Mike will end up the same.

                  [–]eragmus 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Yes, wholeheartedly agree.

                  [–]muyuu 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  I honestly don't think it can be compared. Luke may be stubborn, but this is entirely a different thing.

                  [–]imsaguy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  The difference being that Luke-jr learned from it. Will history repeat itself?

                  [–]laisee 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  No. Mike brings a different view and has the knowledge and experience to offer a great deal of value to the Bitcoin network.

                  Bitcoin will not reach its potential if group-think and internet trollery lead to talented, sometimes difficult, developers being ejected from the community.

                  [–]justusranvier 20ポイント21ポイント  (9子コメント)

                  You sure know a lot about Mike's multi-year history in and around Bitcoin for someone who's only been around for 19 days.

                  [–]muyuu 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Maybe he has a life outside of reddit?

                  [–]my_stepdad_rick 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Some people in /r/bitcoin don't realize that the important discussion surrounding bitcoin doesn't happen here.

                  [–]Avatar-X 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                  He still nailed the gist of it. Unless you are going to tell me I have not been around long enough to be able to say that. ;)

                  [–]justusranvier 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  I found that comment because somebody else retweeted this:

                  https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/649415588239003648

                  Note Peter Todd linking to that sockpuppet's editorial rather than to the original transcript which portrays events hard to reconcile with the post.

                  There is credibility being burned here, but you might be mistaken as to whose.

                  [–]MrChrisJ 8ポイント9ポイント  (8子コメント)

                  Yeah what he meant was he coined the term "SPV" as in the abbreviation not the actual concept. And to his credit he was the first person to implement it with bitcoinj as part of his Google 20% time project. I was corrected on this myself https://twitter.com/iang_fc/status/649413213193420800

                  But yeah clumsily written and a bit arrogant. Altogether the guy is dividing the community.

                  [–]Noosterdam 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Who cares anyway? Saying he coined a term, or an abbreviation, is by no means grounds for banning.

                  [–]DeafGuanyin 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  No, but at least criticising him for it substantiates Mike's claims that his opponents are trying to derail discussion about block size with personal attacks.

                  [–]alamantha 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  Yeah what he meant was he coined the term "SPV" as in the abbreviation not the actual concept

                  He did not. SPV was in use before Mike Hearn's involvement. The correction you received was not correct: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=125.msg1149#msg1149

                  [–]MrChrisJ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Thanks I posted your correction along with clarification on twitter https://twitter.com/MrChrisEllis/status/649565918415187968

                  [–]my_stepdad_rick 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  It's an initialism, you can't 'coin' it. You don't get any credit for taking the first letter of something someone else invented. We don't give a shit about the guy who first called his television set a TV.

                  コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                    [–]prezTrump[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    They downvoted this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3n0ej4/mike_hearn_threatens_to_block_development_by/

                    Which is how I found out. I had missed it.

                    [–]PeaceCoin 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Mike is trying to claim he coined the term SPV

                    He is lying! It was me, I whispered "SPV" in Satoshi's ear when he appointed me the chosen one.

                    Man I hate lies and the lying liars that....

                    コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                      [–]alexgorale 8ポイント9ポイント  (28子コメント)

                      As time goes on Hearn has really hurt his reputation imo.

                      [–]untried_captain 12ポイント13ポイント  (27子コメント)

                      I asked him if he was planning to attend the Hong Kong conference on scaling or if he was going to blow it off like the last one. I never got such an arrogant reply before. He thinks that meeting face-to-face to exchange ideas, discuss technical aspects and debate proposals with developers and miners is 'a waste of time' and 'just theatre'. He's extremely self-righteous and refuses to even acknowledge other viewpoints. Now I'm actually wondering if he's a compulsive liar too.

                      [–]_______SFYL_________ 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      I never got such an arrogant reply before.

                      Check the one he gave to f2pool when they said they didn't want 8GB blocks, he told them that he would just re-write XT to deliberately exclude them from the network. I've never laughed so hard at such a self defeating email.

                      This can happen even if Chinese miners who can't/won't scale up are >50% hashrate. SPV clients would need a forced checkpoint, which would be messy and undesirable, but it's technically feasible. The smaller side of the chain would cease to exist from the perspective of people actually trading coins

                      He's saying he is going to attempt to code 50%+ of the network hashrate out, and they are just supposed to bow over and take my rule even though they literally have the one tool which can destroy the network. Seriously. If he ever had a chance of getting 75% of the hashrate to sign the XT dotted line, he just burned it right there.

                      Now I'm actually wondering if he's a compulsive liar too.

                      Heh.

                      [–]eragmus 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Don't forget his dev list message sent to a Chinese miner rep that Chinese miners can make their own Chinese altcoin if they don't like his 20MB proposal. /facepalm

                      [–]aminok 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Check the one he gave to f2pool when they said they didn't want 8GB blocks, he told them that he would just re-write XT to deliberately exclude them from the network.

                      No he didn't. You're using a throwaway account to attack Mike Hearn and Roger Ver.

                      [–]alexgorale 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

                      It's a shame. At least, if he could, communicate a clear message and define what you're actually fighting for, right? Instead of taking up the flag for a non-dev issue in the dev channel.

                      Right now it just looks like an angry kid who isn't getting his way.

                      [–]prezTrump[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

                      I used to think so, but now I think his complete ostracism is a much, much better outcome. His politics, lobbying, "aggressive minority" strategies, etc. are very unlikely to render much end product as he's basically more of a nobody every day.

                      He could do this much damage until now because he had built some sort of name within the community. That made it hard to dismiss his bullshit without getting some flak back for it. Now it's becoming increasingly easier. So much so even "not dictatorial enough Wumpus" (according to MH) finally banned him from the chat room.

                      Personality building is dangerous for Bitcoin. Very dangerous, when anybody does it - as they become a distinct target - and even much more so when it's a toxic element like MH.

                      [–]aminok 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      His politics, lobbying, "aggressive minority" strategies, etc. are very unlikely to render much end product as he's basically more of a nobody every day.

                      The aggressive minority would be the group that began deleting Reddit threads with 90% upvotes, and banning the users that submitted them, to not allow them to express support for a new client.

                      [–]ssssuperffffrank 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Personality building is dangerous for Bitcoin. Very dangerous, when anybody does it

                      username checks out

                      [–]prezTrump[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Correct, I'd never use my real name here :-)

                      [–]eragmus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Exactly, very well said. But I do hope he stops and returns to being a positive force, instead of a divisive one. He can make that choice whenever he wants.

                      [–]PeaceCoin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Personality building is dangerous for Bitcoin. Very dangerous, when anybody does it - as they become a distinct target - and even much more so when it's a toxic element like MH.

                      Here is what I can't figure out... How did Mike Hearn manage to brainwash Gavin?
                      Was it like Pinky and the Brain? "...Take over the world!"

                      And they both got so busy with politics that they forgot how to do basic math. WTF?

                      コメントをもっと表示する (16 返事)

                        [–]utuxia 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        the evil doers are starting to take over open source.

                        [–]transdimensionalsnug 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

                        18:27 hearn: look at how many block size threads there are. obviously a lot of people believe (rightly or wrongly) that by engaging in discussion they can affect the outcome

                        Hearn equates thread count to people. Does he do this because it fits his narrative or is he truly that dense? It's like counting the number of bitcoin users by how many addresses have bitcoin in them. And this is coming off the heels of a stress test where one person was able to act like many people and clog the network. Given his intelligence, I have to think it fits his narrative and that is why he said it. I find a lot of examples like this in his communication and it makes me not trust him.

                        [–]tending 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        Unless you think there are a ton of threads started by a small group of people, you're splitting hairs. Judging by this subreddit I think he is clearly right...

                        [–]aminok 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Hearn equates thread count to people.

                        It's a reasonable "rough proxy". It's easily gameable but common sense would say that a lot of threads is probably an indication of a lot of people.

                        [–]transdimensionalsnug 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        It's not reasonable to use it as a measure when it is easily gameable.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                          [–]luckdragon69 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          @ Mike Hearn - Please stick to developing Lighthouse and permission-less kickstarting, its a cool project and will benefit the world.

                          [–]painlord2k -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          It is not worth doing, if the cost of a transaction in the blockchain end to be 5 to 20 USD

                          [–]BTCisGod 2ポイント3ポイント  (21子コメント)

                          Oh noes, banned from centralized irc!

                          That'll teach him.

                          [–]rorlrkfirke 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          "centralized irc" you guys couldn't get any dumber... IRC is a conduit for social conversations, it wouldn't extend the already existing nature of a diffuse network graph by making irc "decentralized." He got himself banned from a discussion, he's free to have a discussion elsewhere and decide the terms of that discussion himself if he wishes.

                          It's sad that people like you jump on the "decentralization" buzzword when it works for you, but ignore the actual concept of decentralization when it matters most.

                          [–]prezTrump[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

                          EDIT: maaku7 confirms the ML is not moderated at this time, so he's not banned and still there.

                          I believe he also got banned from centralized dev list, in the same day. I didn't find the confirmation but that's what I'm told.

                          Ironically I think he can only post in /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org from the popular channels. The ones controlled by Theymos. Haha I love it.

                          [–]paulmadore 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Are you sure? I haven't seen anyone get banned from there, even when obviously not discussing development stuff.

                          [–]BTCisGod -4ポイント-3ポイント  (9子コメント)

                          Oh Goodie, let's watch live as The King banishes an Underling of 5 Years to the Outer Realms.

                          http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Nostalgia-Electrics-Vintage-Popcorn-and-Concession-Cart/5556186/product.html?searchidx=0

                          [–]eragmus 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          You know, everything really isn't a joke. People are seriously fed up. Do you care about Bitcoin, intellectually or just purely as an investment? For either reason, if you care, you will stop taking everything so lightly and start taking it seriously. This shit is not a joke. Protocols like Ethereum and Monero are busy doing cutting edge cryptographic work, while Bitcoin is mired in a debate over whether to fork so that it can gain the magical advanced capability of having an 8MB block size. Please, if you care, don't blow off how ridiculous this situation is. There's a time for jokes, but this is not one of them.

                          [–]PeaceCoin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          You get Upvoted, just to keep the reply from Ergamus visible.

                          [–]BTCisGod 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I'll take what I can get 0.0

                          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                            [–]ilikebrans 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

                            Satoshi may have coined SPV but mike hearn invented it.

                            [–]aminok 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                            Mike was the first to create a working implementation. That's not 'invention', though it is very laudable.

                            [–]shibe05 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            It is invention. If I now describe a 100 things that I could make in the future I have invented nothing until i actually make them.

                            [–]xygo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Try telling that to the US Patent and Trademarks Office.

                            [–]_______SFYL_________ 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            It's described in the white paper 3 years before Hearn did anything with it, come on.

                            [–]elux 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            It's described in the white paper 3 years before Hearn did anything with it, come on.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem

                            This theorem was first conjectured by Pierre de Fermat in 1637 in the margin of a copy of Arithmetica where he claimed he had a proof that was too large to fit in the margin. The first successful proof was released in 1994 by Andrew Wiles, and formally published in 1995, after 358 years of effort by mathematicians.

                            Satoshi is to Fermat as Hearn is to Wiles. :P

                            [–]ilikebrans 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            It's much easier to come up with an idea and take all the credit without doing anything for it. Specifically talking about SPV here. While Satoshi is #1 for a lot of things, Hearn deserves credit for this one.

                            [–]supersatoshi 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            11 days ago I was downvoted into oblivion for having the audacity to call out this douche bag. Today, it's the cool thing to do.

                            Fuck this bi-polar sub.

                            [–]efxco 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            now this, gentleman, are a serious threat.

                            [–]nophreedom -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Best ban on #bitcoin-dev | Congrats to Wladimir!

                            [–]Bitcoin_Error_Log -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

                            Holy shit, is this a dream?!

                            [–]FluxSeer -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Good riddance.

                            [–]Chakra_Scientist -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Good

                            [–]stalictite -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            COUGH I'm gonna say a big I I told you so, on behalf of Amir Taaki. Like over a year ago he warned about this asshole.

                            [–]smartfbrankings 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            There have been warnings about Mike far longer than that.

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