上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 219

[–]NosDarkly 362ポイント363ポイント  (27子コメント)

The phrase "privilege" was adopted to be combative and confrontational. Of course it's use will illicit negative responses. Tell a white person about the disadvantages some minorities face and you may get understanding. Turn it around on them and act like everything is somehow their fault merely for being alive and you'll just make an enemy. It's just a tool of the elite to divide everyone among racial and gender lines so the very rich(people who actually are privileged) are not confronted for how they run society.

[–]cannibaljim 28ポイント29ポイント  (0子コメント)

The phrase "privilege" was adopted to be combative and confrontational. Of course it's use will illicit negative responses. Tell a white person about the disadvantages some minorities face and you may get understanding. Turn it around on them and act like everything is somehow their fault merely for being alive and you'll just make an enemy.

Exactly. Imagine accusing someone of colour of having Black Jealousy because they're not white. Both terms are insulting and only make racial divisions worse.

[–]iamadogand 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

My first thought was "well that's just a people trait, not a white people trait." It just happens that whites are the more affluent class in the US.

Do the same experiment in another area of the world where they have racism and a different privileged race, and see the exact same behavior.

[–]TigerlillyGastro 31ポイント32ポイント  (10子コメント)

"Freedom is merely privilege extended, Unless enjoyed by one and all". This gives an interesting conception of privilege, since it frames it along the lines of rights and freedoms that one group assumes are universal, when in fact these freedoms are denied to other groups. I think in terms of the racialised disadvantages, maybe this thinking is closer to truth: that the majority assumes that everyone has these freedoms, but in fact they are limited or denied on basis of silly things like skin tone.

[–]Tech_Itch 28ポイント29ポイント  (8子コメント)

Then why not frame those rights and freedoms as universal, and work to get them extended to everyone, instead of painting people whose friendship you could use as "privileged"? If something is a "privilege", it's not a right.

[–]bobsp 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

If something is extended only to one group it is a privilege.

[–]DevotedToNeurosis 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

But is it extended to only one group? Or is it denied to others?

Perhaps we should attack factors that deny, rather than pretend it's selectively extended across the board.

[–]fluffybunnyboo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's a very semantic argument, and you make a valid point (why use words that are divisive?).

But you could argue that framing the discourse in such a way as not to offend the people who are receiving the rights denied to you.... is a little difficult for the other side to swallow. In just the same way you don't like the term privilege. Which kinda makes the semantic argument inflammatory and maybe even more harmful and divisive than a way to find common ground.

Perhaps it's best to leave the lexicon as it is, and focus on the issues rather than semantics?

[–]DevotedToNeurosis 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm just saying that legally/technically/business-wise there is no preference for gender or race.

The preference of gender or race is a result of the individual making choices/decisions within that framework, so let's punish/fix those individuals with their biases.

The "only extended to one group" point of view makes it sound like (at least to me) that it is technically/legally specific to the white race/male gender.

[–]TigerlillyGastro 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, it's what you're saying just in the opposite order. If it isn't universal, it can't be freedom/right, it's just privilege.

Another way to think about it, you can say that group a compared to group b is 'privileged' or you can say that group b compared to group a is 'disadvantaged'.

It depends where you want to place the emphasis. Maybe the privilege language shows that the problem is much bigger than we like to think. We like to think that basically we are all equal and have same freedom, and racism/prejudice is just tidying up around the edges. But maybe we are still not much further on than feudalism, with just larger groups enjoying the privilege.

I don't think that the end goal is terribly controversial, maybe only the path to get there.

[–]bbbberlin 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's still an issue of framing though, because calling people "disadvantaged" could be construed as the people being at fault for their own sorry condition, whereas "privilege" discourse frames it combatively a situation where one group of people is being put down by another. I mean the argument of "privilege" is not that Joe Public is himself actively a white supremacist parading down the street, it's that Joe Public is through his passive (and sometimes active) actions is part of society that has pretty shocking systematic racism, and nothing much changes. Joe Public still supports his local police department and isn't out protesting when their racist emails get leaked.

I mean there is a different experience of the United States as a whole depending on your skin colour. If you're white you can live your whole life and never be forced to confront some ugly aspects of society. If you're a minority, it will confront you. There is a power differential here... one that we didn't choose to be born into, but it still exists. We can say that "privilege" may be a hurtful or uncomfortable term, but that hurt is pretty minor compared to what others experience verbally and physically with much more frequency.

[–]master_bungle 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone once said that we don't have rights, we have temporary privileges.

[–]GhostFish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Boy do I ever get pissy when people say driving is a privilege. That word is so loaded and such a trigger for me.

Oh wait, I know that words have various meanings and connotations and I'm not some baby who needs to be coddled.

"Privilege" isn't the problem word. It's the "white" part. Calling it white privilege is an oversimplification of a real problem. It's socioeconomic privilege that largely aligns with being white, but not universally and consistently. But we are too easily distracted by the terminology of divide and conquer tactics to look at it, with our emotions in check, to confront it as the complicated issue that it is.

[–]layorz 159ポイント160ポイント  (65子コメント)

That's because 'white privilege' denies that white people naturally encounter bias or discrimination, which is ludicrous because people will use anything from height, gender, sexual preference, body fat, the clothes you wear, the sound of your voice, literally anything to discriminate against you should they choose to. These people in the studies are more likely to point out varying discriminations they usually wouldn't because of the inherent denial that they can even experience discrimination at all because they are white, or in response to the idea that theeir skin colour means the discrimination they do experience is lesser or irrelevant altogether.

I have red hair. I have literally been assaulted for having red hair. According to the OP, mentioning this experience is just an attempt to justify white privilege rather than explaining that the colour of my skin doesn't make me impervious to discrimination.

[–]EdgarAllenPoeHunter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And I've been physically assaulted for being small and loud. But, fact is, the mistreatment of the small or the loud or the gingery has not led to communities that have an entirely different and more difficult experience of life in American society. Apples n' oranges, mang.

Think of it this way. You got beat up. Presumably as a kid, but maybe not. But you probably overcame that, and now live a normal life where that stuff no longer directly impacts you on a day to day basis. Because these kinds of hardships have an expiration date. Imagine if yours didn't. And then everyone decided, for convenience, to pretend that they did, and it expired 50 years ago.

[–]bobsp 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its according to the study and you are confirming it.

[–]Blond_Treehorn_Thug 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's because 'white privilege' denies that white people naturally encounter bias or discrimination,

This is absolutely false. If you think this then you do not understand the way the term Is used.

[–]nil_clinton 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's how people will hear it.

Regardless of your intent or truth/untruth of the term. (I believe it kinda is true, but a completely unhelpful way of putting it 99% of the time.)

This study proves that.

Whatever you hope to achieve by calling people "privileged" (true or not) it just makes them feel like a victim because of race, and comes across as self-righteous and kinda obnoxious.

[btw I'm not white, and an active anti-racist]

[–]Sage2050 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is it really so hard for you to admit that maybe being white is advantageous?

[–]iamadogand 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is discrimination, and there's systemic discrimination.

Everyone has experienced personal discrimination of some form. But it's a fact that black Americans have experienced systemic discrimination.

When confronted with this systemic discrimination that didn't affect whites in the same way it affected blacks (this is what we mean by "white privilege" though I also have some issues with that term), a white person might think to themselves "Wait. They're saying I've had it easy compared to blacks. I didn't have it easy! I've overcome hardships too!"

Everyone has something to overcome. For blacks, part of their challenge is built in to the very system that's supposed to help them, so it's extremely fucked up. For whites, they get defensive if they infer that someone thinks they've had it easy.

I don't think this study is groundbreaking or says anything new about race relations. I think this just merely confirms something about human nature. No one thinks they have it easy, and we tend to overlook the experiences of others to defend ourselves.

[–]dwilder812 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well yeah when you tell someone you have had an easier life because your skin color they are going to find a need to defend themselves more than someone that aren't being accused. You can use that pretense for any study

[–]Nyarlathoteps_Cat 22ポイント23ポイント  (5子コメント)

So whites in general? As in me an American Mutt, a Scottish Highlander, and my crazy Hungarian Geology Professor can all just be identified as one? That is as dumb as calling Idris Elba African American.

Here is an idea, lets's focus on actually helping instead of devoting time and energy to who has the most privilege. And let's not forget the class warfare like to pass the blame on to racism.

[–]woohalladoobop -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

But white people realizing that they have probably the most privileged position in society would be the single biggest step towards fixing a lot of these problems.

[–]paracog 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a white man, I've had a pretty cushy life in California. Not so much my mother and stepfather who paid the equivalent of a the cost of a new car every year to send me to a good boarding school, despite having been raised in the Depression. My stepfather watched his father be killed by a drunk driver and quit school, supporting his mother and three younger brothers. My mother was a latchkey child whose mother worked 12 hour days in a sweatshop to raise her 2 daughters, my grandfather having killed himself so as to not have his tuberculosis be a burden on his family. My great grandparents came over in the bottom of a boat from Norway to grind out a living in South Dakota from a farm. My grandmother ran away, crippled from birth, got a job and went to the Mayo clinic to have it fixed. It's true I don't personally deserve how soft my life has been, but it's because of the hard work and investments made by my forebears that it's been so good.

[–]IdleChatMeister 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a reaction people have when comparing past illness, the person that "wins" is the one that was closer to death. It's most likely the same reaction people would have if confronted with facts about gender inequalitiy, or in many parts of the world, based on religious beliefs (Jews and atheists come to mind, or Christians in muslim countries and viceversa, etc.).

[–]Tocor 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am going to take my time to read the article my self, but here is my first initial reaction: it smells like shit is in the air. It might be that their methods and found evidence is sound, but I find it hard to imagine that a person who refers to Caucasians as "Whites" and talks about "White Privilege" is someone who other academics take seriously. I atleast can't take this as something serious. It makes them seem entirely unacademic. Besides that I think the conclusions we read are presented too much as hard evidence and possibly a misinterpretation of the results because of bias. That is my first initial guess/response though.

[–]the_weather_man_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyone have the link behind the paywall?

[–]GourmetCoffee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look this whole argument is stupid, because it's one side arguing the meaning of the word, and the other arguing the intent.

The meaning is that, given all other factors equal, a white person and black person facing the same obstacles in life, a black person would have to face racial profiling on top of all the rest.

That's not the problem.

The problem is that the word is intentionally used in inflammatory context to get white people to be frustrated so they can be painted in a bad light. It is not used clearly within its true meaning.

When you go up to a passive, non-racist white person and try to make an enemy out of them because they made the mistake of simply being white and not crusading against racism, you've turned a potential friend into an enemy, and this is the problem with the use of these words.

You can always tell the difference between activists that want to make a difference and activists that simply want to make headlines and start problems. One seeks friends and the other seeks enemies.

Because if you don't have enemies, it's harder to justify your self pitying outlook on life.

I feel like it's a result of the times. The economy is shit, and most people aren't happy, so they're looking to point fingers at things outside of their control for why they don't have the things in life they feel they are owed.

It's frustrating to have people tell you that as a white, straight male, if you're not living the good life it's your fault for squandering you privilege, but for everyone else, it's because they're black or a woman or gay that they struggle.

[–]trevoris 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do people in China spend time researching "Chinese Privilege"?

Come to think about it, of course they don't.

[–]hubaluba 8ポイント9ポイント  (30子コメント)

wtf is a "white privilege"??

[–]Mordredbas 8ポイント9ポイント  (25子コメント)

Possibly because the whites that claim to suffer more hardship are from the same relative socio-economic background as the minority participants and are treated like crap too? Just a thought.

[–]PrettyIceCubeBS|Computer Science 23ポイント24ポイント  (14子コメント)

Perhaps you should read the article and look at how the studies are set up and not just the post title.

[–]Mordredbas 27ポイント28ポイント  (12子コメント)

I am way too poor with my white privilege to pay 36 bucks for this. That's a weeks groceries.

[–]PrettyIceCubeBS|Computer Science 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah access to articles is very expensive. The abstracts usually have enough detail in them to have a basic idea of the study performed though. If you are fortunate enough to be at university then you can often get access to papers though them.

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

As one of my old research professors would put it: abstracts are the best way for an author to lie about their work.

[–]rydan 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Scumbag OP. Posts an article here and expects people to read it. Those that need it the most can't afford it or don't have free (privileged) access to it since they don't go to Stanford. You'd think OP would be sensitive to this but apparently not.

[–]Mordredbas 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well let's see, students in Stanford are 40% white, the population of the US is 63% white so white privilege obviously gets you into Stanford?

[–]utilsucks 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Damn, give me some of that sweet sweet over represented Asian privilege.

No, but seriously, it couldn't be that Asian people work harder and thus make better grades?

[–]Mordredbas 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Isn't that as big a stereotype as white privilege?

[–]utilsucks 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or maybe there's no grand racial conspiracy and parts of the world like certain elite universities truly are meritocratic?

[–]Mordredbas 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never said there was one, just pointing out white privilege doesn't seem to get you into Stanford.

[–]NGC2467 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not in America. American universities are proud of their racial discrimination.

[–]fortytwowilldo[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I posted excerpts of the article in a comment in here. You can read parts of the methodology / results and discussion there.

[–]Orangebeardo 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perhaps people should post better titles. Journalism is dead.

[–]fortytwowilldo[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

The study reports experiments, which means they took white people and randomly assigned them to either read about white privilege or not and afterwards let them rate how hard they think their life was. In three experiements, when people read about white privilege they rated their own life as harder. One can speculate that people focus on their own hardships to have some kind of justification for such racial differences.

You can observe this here on reddit a lot. Whenever there is an article about somebody helping poor people and acknowleding disadvantages for them, somebody comes along and talks about his/her first-world problem.

[–]samamp 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

perhaps this is because people get defensive when someone "accuses" them of being priviledged because of the color of their skin...

[–]PhonyUsername 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Naturally. These surveys are manufactured to achieve the desired results.

[–]thenovamaster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. Seems like a faulty study to me. I'll have to finish reading it after I get to the office though.

[–]PhonyUsername 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do the do the same thing in reverse, or was this study designed just to display these inevitable results?

[–]moodog72 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

How did people of color rank themselves after reading?

Missing data on that?

It's a human response, they would have done the same, after reading of white privilege.

Any narrative will start you thinking about your own life, and how it relates. This is about people having their memory jogged, and a carefully selected group, in order to "prove" a foregone conclusion.

[–]monkeydave -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

I love the comments here that literally prove the article.

"Whites who are told about white privilege more likely to bring up their own hardships to discount the role of privilege in their life." "That's bull crap! I'm white and I've had hardships!"

[–]timetravelhunter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm white with no hardships. I don't deny privilege. Although privilege is extremely relative. Being white makes it harder to get into college or find a job, but I wouldn't doubt if it was often easier to get promoted (assuming it is a predominantly white environment).

My significant other recruits for one of the most prestigious tech companies in the US. She spends 90% of her time trying to fill "diversity hire positions". In other words, white males are getting excluded before they even had a chance. That certainly is privileged to everybody but white males.

[–]jamesrom 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I literally cannot find one comment that resembles anything close to this strawman.

[–]acl5dGrad Student | Microbiology | Immunology 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's because lots of them have been removed. But there are still many that haven't been yet. Another one pops up every few minutes.

[–]thenovamaster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is literally one comment here that contains "as a white.." and that comment is mostly neutral. Not even one that says "I'm white." In fact there's more people saying exactly what you're saying than even exclaiming their own race. Keep building those strawmen, pal, you'll make a business out of it one day.

[–]pinskia -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why is this voted down. It is like people don't understand the article at all.

[–]dodo215 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree. I think people don't understand what white privilege is. What privilege is institutional and a systemic issue. People seem to be getting caught up by examining one individual person (usually themselves) and say "No evidence of white privilege here." However, if you look at our country as a system, there is white privilege-- in the housing market, education, and you better believe, the legal system. However, I do agree with some people's comments who have pointed out that gender, sexual orientation, class, whatever the identifying thing may be, can be viewed as a privileged/oppressed binary. Now I didn't read the study (so who knows if their methodology is legit), but I think a good take home message is that individuals should consider it from a societal point of view rather than an individual stand point.

[–]REDDIT_IN_MOTION -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

If only they would "Shut up and Listen" right?

[–]fortytwowilldo[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

We hypothesize that claiming hardships allows Whites to deny racial privilege extends to thempersonally while accepting its existence for the group as a whole. If people believe that racial privilege entails a lack of hardship, then the presence of hardshipwould signal an absence of personal privilege. By claiming life hardships, Whites can protect their sense of self from threat associated with racial privilege. How can outcomes be undeserved, how can privilege have offered personal benefits, when life has been so hard?

Participants completed two ostensibly unrelated surveys, the first regarding beliefs about inequality in America and the second about childhood memories

In the White Privilege condition, participants read instructions asking them to think about inequality in America as they took the survey, followed by a paragraph about Whites' advantages in American society (adapted from Lowery, Chow, Knowles, & Unzueta, 2012): In the last half of this century, Americans have given considerable attention to matters of racial inequality. Despite increased attention to the issue, most social scientists agree that, even today, White Americans enjoy many privileges that Black Americans do not. White Americans are advantaged in the domains of academics, housing, healthcare, jobs, and more compared to Black Americans.

Life hardshipswasmeasuredwith five items (“My life has been full of hardships”; “There have been many struggles I have suffered”; “My life has had many obstacles”; “My life has been easy” (reverse scored); and “I have had many difficulties in life that I could not overcome”; α1a = .86; α1b = .90). Participants rated their agreement with each item on a 7-point scale (1= Strongly Disagree; 7 = Strongly Agree).

As hypothesized, participants in the White Privilege condition claimedmore life hardships than participants in the No Privilege condition, Experiment 1a, t(92) = 2.40, p = .02, d = .49, 95% CI [.10, 1.10]. We replicated this effect in Experiment 1b. Participants in theWhite Privilege condition claimed more life hardships than those in the No Privilege condition, t(89)=1.93, p = .057, d=.41, 95% CI [−.02, 1.16].

We found that claiming hardships helps individuals discount the role of systemic privilege in their personal lives, despite accepting that group-level privilege exists. Importantly, this discounting of personal privilege is ultimately associated with diminished support for affirmative action policies — policies that could help reduce privilege and increase racial equity.

The current work demonstrates that individuals exhibit a previously unknown response to evidence that they benefit from group inequity: people may accept that in-group privilege exists, but change their perceptions of their own lives in order to deny the role of systemic advantages in their success. In particular, when provided evidence that their group has benefitted from privilege, Whites suggest that they have instead suffered the hard-knock life by claiming increased personal life hardships. This may serve to bolster their sense of legitimacy and reduce the negative attributional implications of privilege (e.g., Feather, 1992; Knowles& Lowery, 2012). Such a response has the potential to erode acknowledgement of racial inequity, and support for policies designed to reduce such inequity. To successfully address inequity, understanding the privileged is likely as important as understanding the underprivileged.

[–]Eclipz905 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

1) Was everyone survey white? If not, was the effect more pronounced in whites than in other racial groups?

2) It sounds like there were only two experimental groups: one primed with the white privilege paragraph, and one without that paragraph. It seems to me there should have been at least one more group, primed with different material on inequality. This might help show if the effect is specific to white privilege, or perhaps observed with all examples of inequality.

[–]pinskia 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No wonder people are being idiots when responding, they voted down an extract from the article itself.

[–]Dubbedbass 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know about this study. It was run only in white participants. Maybe they thought more of their personal hardships to discount white privilege when told about it. But maybe ALL people are more likely to think more of their personal hardships after being told about white privilege. That would be kind of a different finding.

[–]thenovamaster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the problem here..

It's actually almost like they're assuming white people are another species other than human.

[–]Ruktov 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personal suffering is relative. I don't know what it feels like to live in poverty, but does that mean I don't suffer other things? Everyone suffers, some suffer in more extreme ways, but trying to accuse someone of not understanding that suffering without actually experiencing it is pretty ridiculous.

[–]a_white_american_guy -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That makes a lot of sense. Privileged people have more components of their lives that can be good or go bad.

[–]higmage 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Has this study been reproduced?

[–]bobsp 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its being reproduced here over and over again.

[–]Longrodrington -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Let's just call it "baseline human rights". That way whenever someone complains about it, they are actually complaining that they themselves do not have the same opportunities

[–]antisoshal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This. The idea of expressing the idea as privilege inherently insinuates that the baseline for rights and opportunity is LOWER and that whites have an elevated level that must be relinquished. By expressing the difference as a lack of opportunity and rights that need to be elevated to the baseline, you don't immediately alienate people with the idea that they must lose opportunity or rights to remedy the situation. The goal should be to elevate all to equality, not denigrate some to accommodate.

[–]SCphotog -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bunch of circle talk, best as I can tell.

[–]qaaqa -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Keep fighting amongst yourself people. Its what they want. While the guys who run the world take away your national sovereignty wih the TPP trade agreement. You will wake up to realize none of wht you were distracted with mattered because now you all lost all your important rights on a international scale to corporate owning monsters.