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Spoilers[Part 8] Episode Discussion: Season 1 Episode 8 (self.narcos)

fleckes が 投稿

Season 1 Episode 8: La Gran Mentira

A tragic mistake forces the Government to change tactics in the fight against Pablo.

What did everyone think of Part 8?

SPOILER POLICY

As this thread is dedicated to discussion about Part Eight, anything that goes beyond this episode needs a spoiler tag, or else it will be removed.

→ Link to S01E09 Discussion Thread

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[–]lasky21 74ポイント75ポイント  (2子コメント)

Gorilla was my favorite henchman so far and he only lasted two episodes

[–]SawRub 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah the moment they introduced him, I was afraid he was going to hurt her, but since the moment he first spoke, he had been nothing but polite and respectful.

[–]Pascalwb 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Was he real? Or just made for the show?

[–]Patio_Peter 63ポイント64ポイント  (27子コメント)

So no one gonna talk about Gustavo going out like a badass?

[–]Onetok6 42ポイント43ポイント  (21子コメント)

I actually found his death pretty satisfying. You know the Cartel is fucked up when you actually enjoy watching someone who belongs to them get tortured, then again, I could be in the minority here, so I better shut my mouth.

[–]playpet 55ポイント56ポイント  (2子コメント)

Gustavo was arguably the "best" one out of the bunch. He kept, or attempted to keep Pablo in check in terms of violence. He only wanted the business to prosper and often tried to talk him down from the bombings and civilian violence. Of course he also came up with the plan for the kidnappings, but it was considerably "better" than mass attacks.

Actually fuck I don't know that shit was pretty shady too. Mixed feelings, but I def. felt bad for him.

[–]SawRub 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

I get what you mean. While he deserved what he got, he was somewhat likable, because he seemed to be the only one who even attempted to keep Pablo in check, and always tried to be reasonable, without once losing his loyalty.

[–]socialbootywarrior -2ポイント-1ポイント  (15子コメント)

I hope you mean satisfying as in he went out like a badass and being defiant, saying one of the most gangster-est lines of all time and screaming that they're all gonna die. Otherwise, fuck you. Because I don't know how anyone wouldn't admire that.

[–]Onetok6 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

Nah, I meant satisfying in the sense that him getting killed, whether defiantly or cowardly, was enjoyable to watch. And I look forward to watching the rest of the cartel crumble in the coming season.

[–]socialbootywarrior -4ポイント-3ポイント  (13子コメント)

You must be a lot of fun.

[–]Onetok6 -1ポイント0ポイント  (12子コメント)

I like watching bad guys die, sorry.

[–]TheRealDeal360 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Reminds me of Stringer in The Wire

[–]mkcn9714 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except Stringer did snitch on his best friend, so fuck him.

[–]MusaTheRedGuard 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gustavo went out like fucking G. So much respect for him

[–]btokes 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably my favorite scene in season 1

[–]tupac_fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

we r bandits, not snitches!

[–]Gren0sMcPickle 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

R.I.P Gorilla :(

[–]visigothwarrior 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

The real Gustavo Gaviria https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11377151_826680030718968_1521495131465904421_n.jpg?oh=400b450428cfe7299422a29c1f5dce64&oe=565FE67D

[–]TheDInho510 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

The ending was so damned heavy. They really are doing what Paul Haggis said he envisioned in Entourage for Medellin. When Pablo's mom told him that Gustavo always wanted to go further but only with him, I couldn't believe I was actually feeling bad for the guy.

[–]Sylvester_Scott 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was distracted by Pablo's mom looking too much like Dustin Hoffmann in Tootsie.

[–]dabears727 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought the exact same thing!!

[–]mexican_honey_badger 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Even though Gustavo was villain, he was probably my favourite of the Narcos. I especially admired his loyalty in the end. Also loved the scene where he switched on maniacal laughter mode telling everybody that they're all dead.

On a side note, the narrations remind me of playing Max Payne.

[–]jaissonc 32ポイント33ポイント  (1子コメント)

Definitely my favorite part of the episode. I mean... not even pablo...

[–]GoldEagle999 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hahahaha yea, even he doesnt want his mom to see him smoking trees :)

Nice little detail.

[–]arjun10 43ポイント44ポイント  (9子コメント)

Enjoying the show and its historical narratives, but I really cringed at the ending monologue about good and bad being relative, and the reflections on how maybe good guys need to to bad things to beat the bad guys or whatever. That makes sense in a stylized cinematic drama, but the actual dynamics of the War on Drugs and Colombian military/police operations are so much more bloody and complicated than that, to the point where its questionable how "good" the good guys fighting the cartels even area. I.e. here is a passage from a book I'm reading right now called Global Capitalism, Democracy, and Civil-Military Relations in Colombia:

At the height of its terror campaign, the Medellin Cartel killed 175 and injured 721 in Bogota between May and December 1989, the most difficult period of the cartel’s offensive. In comparison, between January and November 1989, there were 5,700 presumed political killings in the country, the majority by Colombian military units and paramilitary groups (pp 115-116).

And when they say "political killings", they're not talking about killing cartel people--they're talking about killing teachers, trade unionists, human rights activists, peasant organizers, etc. This was in the context of the communist insurgency in Colombia, which was a much bigger concern for the Colombian military and the oligarchs than the cartels. And what gets interesting is how operations and funding around anti-cartel/anti-narcotics activities got wrapped up in the anti-communist/anti-insurgency campaigns.

Anyways, kind of a rant, but I just wanted to get that out there. I really dislike it when popular media glorifies the whole "do anything to get the bad guys" kind of narrative that supports extra-judicial killings, torture, and disappearances. Sure, its satisfying when its wrapped up in a narrative about how bureaucracies suck and the rich bad guys can break the laws and when the target of such operations are people like Gustavo--but the reality is way more brutal and messier than that.

[–]Onetok6 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

And when they say "political killings", they're not talking about killing cartel people--they're talking about killing teachers, trade unionists, human rights activists, peasant organizers, etc. This was in the context of the communist insurgency in Colombia, which was a much bigger concern for the Colombian military and the oligarchs than the cartels. And what gets interesting is how operations and funding around anti-cartel/anti-narcotics activities got wrapped up in the anti-communist/anti-insurgency campaigns

The fact that they left all this out is bullshit, and is pretty dishonest. I know they went a little bit over some of the communist organizations, and liberation theology, but the sheer scale of the left-wing insurgency, as well as its pretty brutal and thorough repression, was barely even mentioned. I also wanted to see them go more over the right-wing paramilitary groups and death squads, but so far at least, they have left them out as well. I could have sworn that when Carrillo was told to dismantle his search bloc, that they themselves would have become a right-wing paramilitary group, just for the sake of survival, with him as their head, as he hinted at with the vigilante justice comment.

[–]Nimitz14 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Felt like the show was going to go down this route pretty close to the beginning and it disappointed me quite a bit.

[–]Maxmidget 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you are missing a major point here, which is that the narrator is giving the DEA perspective. Of course he is going to say that he believes his methods were justified. They leave the judgement of the DEA very ambiguous in the show, which is one of my favorite parts.

[–]MusaTheRedGuard 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Kind of unrelated but what exactly is Carrillo? Is he police? or military? If he's military, why are they doing police things?

[–]arjun10 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Carrillo is part of national police.

[–]toxicbrew 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is there even an equivalent in the US? Fbi? Canada may be rcmp.

[–]carlucill -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I would say the DEA would probobly be the closest US equivalent :)

[–]Nimitz14 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I may be wrong but I thought he was in the same outfit as Colonel Huerrero (sp?), who Pablo made a deal with in episode 1, and was compared to the FBI.

[–]reddituid -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The data sample looks picked to fit a narrative. Why not use the same timeframe to compare murders, or give us a longer timeframe?

Your ethical point is valid regardless of the data...how many, if any, innocent deaths does the end justify the means?

[–]toxicbrew 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

This seems like the prefect end for the show. Not sure what the last two episodes still have but this one had to have been the climax of the season.

[–]Godcantfindausername 22ポイント23ポイント  (15子コメント)

I googled steve murphy. Looks like he enjoyed his job.

NSFW kinda gore

[–]malvarez97 21ポイント22ポイント  (5子コメント)

I love just how different he looks in the series, I know they wouldn't have made him look ugly on tv but damn, he looks like a rapist on this pic.

[–]Godcantfindausername 23ポイント24ポイント  (3子コメント)

I just think thats how everyone dressed in that time, but yea kinda rapist

[–]Sylvester_Scott 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was the 80's. Everybody had porn-staches, and rapey looks.

[–]Ausrufepunkt 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

its the glasses, they're pretty rapey

[–]Chasedabigbase 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's just how everyone's dad looked back then.

[–]TheDizeazed 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know this comment is really late but isn't the real Steve murphy shown in the opening credits to every episode?

[–]pistachioD 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

HOly shit, you will not believe who is the dead guy in the picture :O

[–]Siriuslypro 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

somebody tag spoilers! /s

[–]Godcantfindausername -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

pablo

[–]tupac_fan -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

well let's see. tell.
Edit: I think its Pablo. And whoever it is just imagine how sick it is to want to have a picture with a dead man.

[–]blakk_RYno 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

American Imperialism

[–]science_bitch_yoGustavo'sGirl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He doesn't look bad in the picture they show in the opening theme of the show. (assuming that it IS him)

EDIT: just saw that someone has already pointed that out. :P

[–]walterlewout 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

What is his plan with keeping the baby? Is he planning on forging papers to return to the US with her?

[–]SawRub 38ポイント39ポイント  (3子コメント)

"This baby is DEA."

[–]walterlewout 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

But it's still kidnapping...

[–]SawRub 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh I wasn't agreeing with it, I was making a joke reference to "the cat is DEA" from a previous episode.

[–]walterlewout 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just don't understand how the show just breezed over it.

[–]NasKe 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

They might adopt then. I don't think you would have to forge papers for that.

[–]walterlewout 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Didn't they find the child in a non-authorized operation? I'm not sure how they would explain why the child is in their care.

[–]NasKe 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, I can't remember if it was or not. He could just say that the family died and he is keeping her now.

[–]walterlewout 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would think that the child would go to a living relative over a federal agent of another country. But it seems that the government agencies are corrupt enough to let that through if you pay.

[–]rsip22 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Es hacer un trato con el diablo."

"Usted es el presidente de un país que hace rato si convirtió en en infierno. ¿Con quién más pensó que tenía que hacer un trato?"

HA!

[–]SquidBoladoBig Dick 22ポイント23ポイント  (6子コメント)

Seeing Gustavo die made me realise how much I wanted the bad guys to win. What a boss. Great episode, my favourite so far.

[–]London--Fog 20ポイント21ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm conflicted about who to root for in Narcos. Some of the most popular TV-shows these days have a morally ambiguous protagonist at best, and outright evil at worst (House of Cards, Breaking Bad, Hannibal etc). It's fun, and gives the viewer insight into thrilling and illegal lifestyles that one would never (hopefully) want to lead first hand.

With Narcos, however, they haven't used much artistic license, so what we are presented with isn't that far from the truth. The people who were bombed, assassinated and tortured were real human beings who felt real emotions. They are characters who represent real people who ultimately suffered real fates at the hands of the narcos and their associates.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as hooked on this show as the next guy. To see Escobar's character more in depth: the arrogance, his decadent lifestyle, his violent methods, it's so incredibly interesting; but at no point have I taken pleasure in any of his victories, because I know they came at the expense of real people.

I'm not trying to be a paragon of virtue here, I just find it fascinating how differently I'm reacting to this show, as opposed to similar ones where the narrative and characters are entirely fictitious.

[–]SquidBoladoBig Dick 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thats completely fine. The way I see it, the director presented the series in a way where we're meant to kind of like him and cheer for him in the first few episodes but we see Escobar getting more evil with each ep. My comment was towards Gustavo's loyalty. I thought that was really cool. While the police and government are corrupt and simply sell outs, Gustavo which was one of the main "villains" was loyal till the last second; and I just thought that was really cool how sometimes good traits are shown in bad people.

[–]London--Fog 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a fair point, and something I like about modern movies and tv-shows: we now see a more nuanced morality spectrum, as opposed to the reductive mantra of good vs evil. In real life there are good parts in bad people, and bad parts in good people - and on the whole good and bad is relative (as Murphy said).

I partly agree with what you said about Gustavo. I guess there's always something admirable about being loyal - but in this case it's the loyalty of a generally bad person towards an even worse person, and that sense of loyalty is ultimately a tool which allows Pablo to continue causing destruction.

[–]reddituid 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I want Escobar to win in this TV show, but I want him to lose in real life.

[–]bagano1 12ポイント13ポイント  (24子コメント)

Anyone think this Steve Murphy character is a complete douchebag? This is a real guy, right?

[–]jonsnow23 14ポイント15ポイント  (21子コメント)

Why is he a douchebag?

[–]bagano1 17ポイント18ポイント  (20子コメント)

He's just your typical American prick cop. At least they got the mentality right. I'm not sure if someone like that would really have talked shit about Reagan and conservatives though.

[–]TheFatSamurai 24ポイント25ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well he's technically narrating the story after it happened so I assume he'd be pretty jaded by Reagen and the drug war by then especially after what he experienced on the mission.

[–]bagano1 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

I believe the guy was nothing but a technical consultant. It's very possible the director, Padhila, is just putting words into his mouth. The political slams seem very out of place, especially for a DEA agent. I think a lot of stuff was written for dramatic effect. If he even was suspected of helping someone in M-19 like that, they would have sent him packing.

[–]toxicbrew 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

So the whole Elisa being kept in their house thing was bs? How did she even get it anyway, they didn't say anything about her getting a visa AFAIK.

[–]bagano1 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have to imagine it was. It sounded like some ridiculous subplot drama that was written in. I'm betting this Steve Murphy guy was a rah-rah Uncle Sam type that would never ruin his career for a Colombian Communist rebel. I think he had a long career in the DEA, right? If this was true, he would have been canned and arrested.

[–]GhastlyFrog 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

He didn't protect her for her though, he protected her because she was the only one who could connect Pablo to the attack on the supreme court.

[–]Onetok6 13ポイント14ポイント  (10子コメント)

I thought that his voice over during the series was supposed to be his disillusioned and cynical recap of his time with the DEA. Spending that much time with the US government, their methods, and their secrets, can turn any man into a cynic, yes, even a republican.

[–]Ausrufepunkt 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

He's just your typical American prick cop.

Why is that?

[–]Sylvester_Scott 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Steve Murphy would be a mod on /r/MURICA

[–]bernapt 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Anyone knows the ending theme of this episode?

[–]tupac_fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://www.tunefind.com/show/narcos/season-1/24877
I guess they made joke songs on purpose. Their videos are very funny :)

[–]lady_danger 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Possibly a dumb question, but what was stopping Gaviria from reneging with Pablo? Couldn't he have just said yes to the demands then when the chopper goes to meet him, they ambush him? Was there any legal agreement for Pablo's requests? I know the Colombian citizens would not trust their government for going back on something like this, but in such an extreme circumstance I'm sure the people would understand..

[–]science_bitch_yoGustavo'sGirl 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I had the same question, would love to hear an answer.

[–]Frankeh 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It could cause problems further down the road. If the cartels know that the government won't tell the truth and hold up their end of the deal then the incentive to cooperate with them becomes nil.

[–]science_bitch_yoGustavo'sGirl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had the same question, would love to hear an answer.

[–]AnyRudeJerk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

it would have become great propaganda material for the cartel

[–]toxicbrew 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Who have up Pablo's location? The only time the Monaco building was mentioned that I can remember was Valarie taking to that guy, I'm not quite sure who he is.

[–]ibikris 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh man. Have you even watched the episode? That guy is from the cali-cartell who is against Pablo and made the deal with the ochoas. Valeria tells him that Pablo is in the Monaco house and boom there is a bomb in front of it.

[–]toxicbrew 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I figured I just couldn't put my finger on it... Too much binge watching kind of blended all together. Why was Valeria talking to him and did she purposely tell him the location?

[–][deleted] 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

She made a reference to it being a while since they last spoke and that it was unexpected to hear from him. He met with her to pry info out of her after making a deal with the Ochoa brothers.

Re: was it intentional? No. She said she didn't want to be like his wife, locked up in the Monaco building all day, without realizing that she'd just given up his location.

I think we were supposed to infer that she realized what she had done later during the phone call when she found out what had happened.

[–]GoldEagle999 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ok. So in the first scene, with the donkey and Pablo and Gustavo in the woods at night, there seems to be a time jump after Pablo makes the phone call, did CIA/DEA/Search Bloc just intercept his call that night and where way behind? If so, Why would they assume he would just sit there for hours? Seems like it took them a little while to actually get there.

[–]SwitchKicker 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They said they traced the call about 5 miles from their location, so they had to walk that length through the woods which would presumably take a while. And maybe they thought he was waiting out the raid or something so he would just wait there.

[–]efevelasquez 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I'm not mistaken which I'm not, there's a HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL ERROR with the bomb towards Pablo in Edificio Monaco because it was in 1988, two years before Gaviria became president. In the series the attack was under Gaviria's government, let's say 1990 or so.