(cache) Anivia_SupportがSix years ago, Hitchens perfectly predicts the current social climate of speech suppression, and warns that anyone who talks outside the script will be accused of bigotry.について記入したコメント

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Six years ago, Hitchens perfectly predicts the current social climate of speech suppression, and warns that anyone who talks outside the script will be accused of bigotry. (youtu.be)

KadabraJuices が 2日前投稿

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[–]Anivia_Support -6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前* (91子コメント)

We should respect trans (and all) people for who they are,

No no no here it is. This, right here, this is the cultural marxism. This is the whitewashing. This is the PC bullshit. Should.

The difference between an authoritarian regime and a cultural marxist hell is this:

In an authoritarian regime, like, say Nazi Germany, you do what you're told because "that's what you have to do." For instance, "go visit your grandmother." If you ask why, the answer is "because I fucking told you to and I'll beat your ass raw if you dont."

In the cultural marxist hell, it's not "go visit your grandmother." It's "you SHOULD go visit your grandmother because it's the right thing to do and people who are good want to go visit their grandmothers."

In either case, it's not about the grandmother, or anything like that. It's the imperative. But in the second case you get a societally enforced imperative, whereas the first is just the imperative of a direct order, which still allows you the safety of your own thoughts.

This entire society is ruined by delusional children in college, or children who never truly left college, who really do believe they are acting out of righteousness.

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there's just a certain set of morals that society sticks to.

And in the past those morals have included things like calling pants 'unmentionables', schoolteachers beating children with canes and women being forced by societal pressure to wear crinolines/corsets. All of those were because of the way things 'should be'. At the time there were justifications for those ideas considered perfectly reasonable by the majority of people, the same justifications could still be used today for other things without sounding absurd. Why do so many today feel they have to be a size zero? Who is to say 100 years in the future we won't look back and say 'those poor women, anxious about their body image, dieting themselves ill'?

To tie in with OP video's topic, it's the same in islamic countries, the restrictions of personal freedom we take for granted are due to their moral code and what they think 'should be'. The reasons used to support those restrictions aren't that different to reasons used for why women should wear corsets or stay at home to raise kids that were the norm in the past in western society. The Taliban would say exactly the line I quoted you saying.

[–]HoratioReddacted 37ポイント38ポイント39ポイント 1日前 (14子コメント)

so........ you're argument is you should not have to respect anyone if you don't want to and it's totally okay for people to degrade and marginalize an entire group of people because it's "marxist" to hold an attitude that you should treat everyone with respect?

You would have us ruled by an entire society who never learned "the golden rule" in kindergarten...

I mean hold on here, what the fuck, you said the statment "We should respect trans (and all) people for who they are" is PC whitewashing bullshit?

No one is trying to control you or change the way you think by telling you should treat all people with respect, they are trying to help you not be an asshole or a sociopath and the answer to how to do that really, truly is that simple, treat everyone with respect. Do you want to not be treated with respect?

[–]codeByNumber 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Anivia_Support -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (10子コメント)

so........ you're argument is you should not have to respect anyone if you don't want to

Correct

and it's totally okay for people to degrade and marginalize an entire group of people because it's "marxist" to hold an attitude that you should treat everyone with respect?

I'm gonna need a citation on that one. I never said that. Look carefully at the language here: I'm not saying it's okay to degrade and marginalize people. I'm saying its not okay for other people to enforce their own cultural standards on you. If I choose to believe something different from you that doesn't make me a bad person. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

I mean hold on here, what the fuck, you said the statment "We should respect trans (and all) people for who they are" is PC whitewashing bullshit?

Yes. You should re-read my comment and think critically about my analogy.

No one is trying to control you or change the way you think by telling you should treat all people with respect

That's literally the definition of what's being done by telling me what I should do.

they are trying to help you not be an asshole or a sociopath

Beliefs don't inherently make anyone an asshole or a sociopath, especially if they aren't expressed. How would you know that someone was a racist if they never said a racist thing? Secondarily, I frankly don't care if you think I'm an asshole, because I don't care about you.

Do you want to not be treated with respect?

I treat others with respect, and I do hope others treat me with respect as well. The two are not equated. If you wish to show respect for me, then respect the fact that I have my own beliefs, and that those beliefs might be different from yours. I certainly respect your beliefs.

[–]aleatoric 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 1日前* (4子コメント)

I'm reading your posts, and I gotta ask... what the hell are you talking about? A society has one social "should" and all of a sudden it's some kind of Cultural Marxism?

All societies are built on shoulds and should nots. You shouldn't kill from someone. You shouldn't steal from someone. You shouldn't treat someone (including transgendered people) like shit.. These are basic tenets of most civilizations, or at least I thought they were. I didn't think I was living in a some kind of dystopia all because of an assumption that we should treat people with respect. If it is, then I wanna live in that dystopia because it sounds pretty reasonable.

Surely there is a line to be crossed where such cultural "shoulds" become excessive and harmful to the population-- and where that line is resides in a grey area that I don't think anyone could agree on. In this particular argument (respect to transgendered people), I think it resides in the "that's reasonable" side of the fence. And to think this or most other "shoulds" of decency will lead to "shoulds" of an authoritative government... Well, I think we call that one a slippery slope.

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[–]aleatoric 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 1日前 (2子コメント)

That's not a law, and people treat each other like shit all the time.

Fair enough. Perhaps I'm being too colloquial. I mean it's an issue if we are systematically treating people like shit. That is: if it's widespread enough that it interferes with a person's livelihood, and therefore (in your own words) violates that person's right to live their life (hold a job, put a roof over their head, not walk outside and have rocks thrown at them, etc).

Do I think we should have laws in place against people raising eyebrows at Caitlyn Jenner? No. That's ridiculous. Sometimes people are made uncomfortable about things, and making laws against that is basically a thought crime. It's up to the culture itself to progress above that. Do I think we should have laws against employers discriminating against transgendered people and refusing to hire them? Yes, because that directly impedes their rights.

Not sure whether or not you'll agree with that argument. If so, we're on the same page even though I thought we were distant.

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[–]aleatoric 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

I think a lot of disagreements come down to miscommunication. I know that sounds like something that would be said on a couple's therapy session, but it's true. As creatures, we are restricted in our ability to convey what we mean through words. People have different connotations for different words. I think some of the words you're choosing to base your argument on are upsetting people, and they are lashing out (as I did initially until we established some common ground). Marxism is one of those words that runs deep with people. Yet people have widely different opinions on what it means. So you're bound to run into trouble when you start throwing it around.

Some frequently describe this kind of lashing out as liberal grief, but I don't think that's a problem exclusive to liberals. Nearly everyone in America has been crying wolf about this or that lately. Some of it's worth a damn, some of it's not. Honestly, I don't see it as inherently a bad thing. People have issues that they care about, and they fight for them. I don't understand why SJW has become the pejorative it has. I think it's better than no one giving a shit about anything.

America specifically is a diverse place, and naturally we are going to have some growing pains as we learn to understand each other. I speak my mind, but I also listen. I don't think most people (on the right or the left or the middle) are nefarious. They are decent people with different priorities and issues. I think they all deserve an ear, even if I disagree with them. That's the only way we get through the growing pains without punching each other.

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[–]tengu38 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

Being given automatic and equal respect and standing in the eyes of the law, and expecting the personal respect of every individual in society to simply be given to you by default are two different things.

The law gives equal respect to civil rights activists as well as nazi sympathizers. To expect that all individuals in society should respect a nazi sympathizer as they would a civil rights activist is absurd.

so........ you're argument is you should not have to respect anyone if you don't want to.

Precisely. You have no automatic entitlement to an individual's respect. Respect is earned and sometimes given. Not taken automatically by default.

No one is trying to control you or change the way you think by telling you should treat all people with respect, they are trying to help you not be an asshole or a sociopath.

Tell that to the #BlackLivesMatter activists that shut Bernie Sanders out of his own rally and then called the entire crowd racist simply because they're white. Progressives are absolutely trying to control people and change the way they think by hurling accusations of bigotry, misogyny, sociopathy, etc. to anyone who disagrees with their bandwagon.

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I think you went a bit hyperbolic on the notion of the word "should". Simple use of the word doesn't necessarily mean someone is imposing their beliefs on another, it's more of a declaration of behavior they'd like to see. The other party can then choose to submit to this or not at their own leisure. This in itself is simply a very basic level social contract, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

The problem is that simply choosing not to submit has started becoming labelled as intolerance. Simply holding a different view from the group is being antagonized. While it's true that in many cases the individual's logic is flawed, it's of course downright insane for the group to start encroaching upon the minority simply because it's a different kind of unprotected minority.

Personally, I think this has a lot to do with who holds the burden of offense. People act like they don't choose to be offended, when that doesn't really seem like the case. Some people seem to strive to be offended. Rather than placing the burden of offense on the speaker, I think it should be on the listener. When it's on the speaker, people can fabricate intentions and meanings without ever stopping to ask for clarification. In the example of transgender people, using the wrong people is considered some egregious offense. Even though the transitioning people themselves can fuck the pronouns up, even though it could be a simple mistake, and even though the existence of time muddies pronouns (Bruce Jenner definitely competed in the Olympics, not Caitlyn, as a male at that). When the burden is on the listener, they actually have to prove hostile usage in the speaker.

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Beliefs need to be backed up by reason or fact. We as a society expand and extend our beliefs and knowledge through empirical evidence and discovery.

An individual is free to believe whatever they want, but as a society, it's our responsibility to encourage individuals to correct beliefs we understand to be wrong.

He can believe unicorns are real... we should explain they aren't.

He can believe the world is flat and the center of the universe... we should explain it isn't and educate him on astronomy.

He can hate gay people... we should explain to him that gay people are not a cause for concern.

If he has evidence to support his view over the a more generally accepted view, he is encouraged to present it and add to the discussion. However, absent additional evidence that refutes a generally accepted and supported position, the accepted position should be favored over the unsupported one.

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[–]HoratioReddacted 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前* (4子コメント)

Right, but if you don't treat someone with basic dignity and a bit of human to human respect based on things outside of their control like their race, gender or sexual orientation.... you're an asshole. I'm sorry! I'm liberal so I'm all about PC, I shall correct:

You're a shitty bigot.

You're still right, you don't have to accept anyone, you don't have to respect anyone, you can make racial slurs and homophobic jokes and yell "hey...MAN!" at Caitlyn Jenner all day but understand that those behaviors have a consequence, you will seem like an asshole and will be treated as such. And no, that doesn't mean anyone is being aggressive or taking away some freedom it is the natural consequence of choosing to not respect others. I fully support your right to choose that but understand the consequences of such a decision are yours and yours alone. In other words I can't tell you what to believe and you can't tell me my beliefs are wrong and I believ you are a huge asshole. This is shitty for you as most of society would now agree with me which I guess is what you're complaining about, its not that we've become super PC it's that attitudes about minorties, sexual, racial religious, etc have changed a lot and some people's views , which used to be mainstream, no longer are. You don't have to accept that, but it doesn't make it less true and it would be easier for you if you did, but I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do.

[–]Anivia_Support -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (3子コメント)

you don't have to accept anyone, you don't have to respect anyone, you can make racial slurs and homophobic jokes and yell "hey...MAN!" at Caitlyn Jenner all day but understand that those behaviors have a consequence, you will seem like an asshole and will be treated as such.

See, here's your fundamental failure:

You equate this part:

you don't have to accept anyone, you don't have to respect anyone,

With this part:

ou can make racial slurs and homophobic jokes and yell "hey...MAN!" at Caitlyn Jenner all day

But the two aren't equal. Acceptance or respect of someone is a belief held internally. To make racial slurs and homophobic jokes is an outwardly hostile aggressive action. To hold beliefs and to take actions are completely separate. We're talking about the imperative of thought.

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[–]Flowah 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

You used that word again. should. You're trying to enforce your beliefs on other people. It's aggressive.

Yawn

Fucking call me when we legislate feelings and words. Until then, we're doing the exact same thing as you are. Expressing the way we think and how we think others should think. We're not "enforcing" it any more than you're enforcing your bullshit standard by telling us what it is.

Do people beat you up if you don't "comply?" Do you go to prison? Do you get sued?

Then shut the fuck up you whiny bitch.

Trying to enforce your own cultural standards on other people is stifling to the human condition. It's not your decision to make.

You don't quite understand what the fuck cultural standards are, do you? It is nothing if not a standard created and perpetuated and changed by the aggregate of human society. It is made and influenced by those who seek to do so.

[–]Anivia_Support -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]quietthomas 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 11時間前* (1子コメント)

Your grand mother example is lifted straight from Zizek, who is himself a Stalinist (the mode he was trying to describe in contrast to neo-liberal post modernism... nothing to do with Marxism, he was actually saying that the first one was Stalinist/Marxist and the second one was neo-liberal post modernism).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54CeL2z9yrs

Sorry dude, community standards have always existed (and they include little boys loving their Grandmothers).

And sorry dude, The Frankfurt School ended in the 1970s when rival ideas from The Birmingham School took over. Their main difference was that the Frankfurt School believed consumers of culture were passive sponges sucking up hegemonic messages. Where as The Birmingham School (who ultimately won influence) argued that the Cultural consumer class and Cultural producer class were becoming one thing (basically predicting things like YouTube). This (quite unMarxist class mixing viewpoint) led the way for post modernism... so there's been 35 years of non-Frankfurt School influence in Cultural Studies. Complaining about "Cultural Marxism" today is the equivalent of a banker complaining about Stagflation or Reaganomics... it's well out of date.

Ultimately Technology is giving everyone a voice (not "Frankfurt School Marxism") - there are no Marxists coming for your free speech in the middle of the night.

P.S Also, the west was never interested in adopting Soviet Marxism - not because the west had "Strong traditional Christian values" (as "it's all Cultural Marxism" types advocate) but because unlike Russia - The West already had a fully functioning democratic system (and that sort of thing is quite good for preventing revolutions).

[TL:DR] "Cultural Marxism" lost influence in the 70s

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