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Being a vegan bisexual.EXPERIENCE (self.bisexual)

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[–]lnfinity 4ポイント5ポイント  (69子コメント)

I will respectfully explain to people why it is wrong to cause unnecessary harm to other animals. Do you think there is any excuse for the hate speech in the message I cited (which is just one of several instances)?

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

I didn't read the message you cited. I was referring to the tone of your post and your judgment that I'm being cruel to animals when I eat meat.

Unsolicited preaching is offensive. Blanket judgment is offensive. Hypocrisy of expecting respect for your choices while condemning mine is offensive.

It's not your choice of veganism that is making people angry. It's your choice to preach to people who don't want to hear it that incites anger.

[–]immortality7 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

i'm not vegan (or even vegetarian) and i think you're dead on in analyzing the reactions of people who are negative on veganism. i think you're missing something when you make it seem like this reaction is justified.

reacting negatively to someone advocating for veganism because they don't 'respect your choices' is like reacting negatively to someone who is LGBT-affirming because they don't 'respect your choice' to be homophobic. it's understandable, but not something that should be seen as rational or justifiable.

not all lifestyles or personal habits are equal or equally deserving of respect. i eat meat every day and i see it as a moral failing. reacting negatively when someone challenges the way you live your life is immature - it's better to see it as an opportunity for self-reflection and positive change. if you do serious self-reflection and can 100% say that you're comfortable eating meat, then come back and talk to this person. you'll probably find that what they say doesn't seem that offensive anymore.

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am absolutely comfortable eating meat. I feel no moral imperative not to. Some animals eat other animals. We're animals. It's natural for us to prey on animals which are lower in the food chain.

I've heard all the arguments. My g/f is vegetarian. They do not faze me.

[–]immortality7 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

who are you trying to convince here? if you really were completely comfortable with eating meat, you wouldn't be spending so much time debating with people who think it's wrong. you also wouldn't have such an obviously emotional reaction to the issue.

it's the same sort of thing with rampant homophobes. externalizing an internal conflict.

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You're the one who typed roughly 3 times as much text questioning me as I did in responding, and now you're using the "you care to much" argument?

[–]Vivillontrainer 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Evil" is the wrong word. Just because someone doesn't obey the same ethics as you doesn't mean that they are evil. Do I believe it would be more ethical for you to not eat meat? Yes. Do I believe that you are just a monstrous, despicable person? Absolutely not. I can't understand how you can rationally justify eating animals, but I don't think you are a monster for it.

[–]immortality7 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

lol i just like the debate. you're the one tormenting yourself over the ethics of eating meat

[–]Joseph-Gregory 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

your judgment that I'm being cruel to animals when I eat meat.

Do you think you're not being cruel to animals when you eat meat? What would you define as being cruel? (Honest question here, not tryna judge)

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Human beings are animals which are at the top of the food chain. Some animals eat other animals. There's no natural reason that it is wrong for us to do so as well.

Cruelty is causing suffering. It's not cruel to kill something and eat it.

[–]Joseph-Gregory 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think those are all good points, but I will try and respond as to why I think you, yourself, may not agree with them.

Human beings are animals which are at the top of the food chain.

Yes, we are at the top of the food chain. We have the strength, intelligence and sheer brutality to enslave and kill practically any animal that we desire. However, does that make it right? Let's say we weren't at the top of the food chain, and in fact, an alien species moved to earth that were superior to us in every sense of the word. Do you believe it would be morally right for them to do whatever they wanted to us, simply because they can? The food chain argument seems, at least to me, to equate to a 'might makes right' mentality, where the stronger have the ability to whatever they want with those who are lower on the 'food chain.' Would you have any problem with a stronger and more intelligent person killing a weaker, not as intelligent person? The former person would be higher on the food chain, no?

Some animals eat other animals.

Yes, but I think it's important to recognise that animals cannot be held accountable for their actions. You can't teach a lion not to kill a zebra. For one, lions, as far as I know, don't have a moral code when it comes to these matters. And secondly, the lion could not avoid killing the zebra, even if it wanted to, because it is a carnivore. However, as /u/lnfinity conveniently showed us, humans function perfectly fine without consuming animal products. We also can be held accountable for actions, at least when we're not toddlers.

I'd also like to question something. Considering you believe that us killing animals is not cruel because animals kill other animals, do you also believe it is not cruel to kill other humans? We have been killing each other for hundreds of thousands of years, even to this day. Surely, you don't think the murdering of a person is not morally wrong, simply because humans have killed other humans in the past, and continue to do so? If so, what is the difference with killing animals? And if all animals were herbivores, and no animal ate another, would it then be morally good? Is it really a good idea to base our morality on other animals which frequently hurt, rape and kill each other?

Cruelty is causing suffering.

The vast majority of domesticated animals live terrible lives where they are separated from their family members (such as in the case of dairy cows), de-beaked, de-sexed or severely mutilated in other ways without anaesthetic (such as chickens and baby pigs) And generally live short, sad lives where lack of stimulation causes these animals to become severely depressed. Surely you can see that these animals go through a lot of pain to get to our dinner tables. They are suffering immensely by industries that simply aren't payed to take care of their well being. They don't have painless deaths, but instead ones that are painful (causing them to suffer) I'd like to ask you finally, if you believe it isn't cruel to kill an animal, would you say it isn't cruel to kill a human, either? I hope you don't take any of my questions aggressively, as I am very interested in talking to people about what they think is moral / immoral, and definitely want to hear your thoughts on some of the issues I've raised.

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Animals are not sentient beings. Comparing the death of an animal to that of a human is silly.

[–]justin_timeforcake 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Science disagrees with you. Animals are sentient.

[–]Joseph-Gregory 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think /u/thaneofpain was referring to self awareness, which science is pretty certain some animals are, such as in the self awareness mirror test (those dolphins are adorable!!!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHBfp6QC-MY

But even then, I can't understand why it matters. Clearly other animals can feel pain, and do have desires and needs of their own. They can suffer, and quite intensely, as many a undercover factory video footage has shown. And since they can, what does it matter if they can look in the mirror and say "hey, that's me!" or not, when it comes to whether they should live or die? Something as silly as that seems arbitrary to me, especially when we wouldn't slaughter a non-self aware human (otherwise known as an infant)

[–]Joseph-Gregory 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is your definition of sentience? Only asking because sometimes people confuse sentience with self awareness

[–]nanbullen -3ポイント-2ポイント  (45子コメント)

I will respectfully explain to people why it is wrong to cause unnecessary harm to other animals.

This is your problem right here. It's an incredibly condescending thing to say. What you mean to say is that you think it's wrong and you're not informed enough to realize it is necessary.

Sure, factory farming could and should be reformed, but humans have been eating meat since before we were humans. All life consumes life. Just because it makes you uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean it's wrong.

There is no significant, natural vegan source of vitamin b12, for starters. If we all took seaweed supplements as most (smart) vegans do, it would likely go extinct or otherwise wreak havoc on the ecosystem.

Really, reasons for why universal or near-universal veganism is a terrible idea are myriad and you'd know them if you used the Internet for anything other than confirming your preconceived notions.

Do you think there is any excuse for the hate speech

You're not a protected class. Calm down. Some people just have a low tolerance for misonformed moral superiority.

[–]phanana 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's an incredibly condescending thing to say. What you mean to say is that you think it's wrong and you're not informed enough to realize it is necessary.

Wait, who's being incredibly condescending here?

humans have been eating meat since before we were humans. All life consumes life.

"Things have been this way, so things must be this way" is is not an argument. Humans are also different from "all life". We have ethical understanding. This is why, for example, we usually treat killing other humans as a crime - because we judge it as an ethical offense.

Just because it makes you uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean it's wrong.

Once again, there are philosophical arguments for veganism (and environmental reasons, of course). The reason is not "oh no poor animals". Read Peter Singer for a good intro to a utilitarian approach!

There is no significant, natural vegan source of vitamin b12, for starters.

True!

If we all took seaweed supplements as most (smart) vegans do, it would likely go extinct or otherwise wreak havoc on the ecosystem.

Wtf lol, no? Do you think multivitamins or other supplements are some kind of a fringe product? B12 is already everywhere, you even have it added in your cereal and fruit juice. Do you seriously think its production isn't flexible enough to get even bigger if needed? (The part about it wreaking havoc on the ecosystem is ironic if you know what raising animals for meat is doing to it.) Also I love how your whole argument is just something that's "likely" aka you simply came up with this idea and think it's super smart.

Really, reasons for why universal or near-universal veganism is a terrible idea are myriad and you'd know them if you used the Internet for anything other than confirming your preconceived notions.

That was your myriad of reasons? Doesn't sound like you're informed on both sides of the argument either. Practice what you preach, stop trying to only sound smart, it isn't working.

[–]The_Ebb_and_Flow 6ポイント7ポイント  (32子コメント)

Meat and animal products aren't necessary at all.

American Dietetic Association

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada

A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation

A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

Regarding this point:

Sure, factory farming could and should be reformed, but humans have been eating meat since before we were humans. All life consumes life. Just because it makes you uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean it's wrong.

This is a combination of two logical fallacies Appeal to Nature and Appeal to Tradition.

There is no significant, natural vegan source of vitamin b12,

Apart from the fact that B12 comes from bacteria that live in soil which is incredibly abundant. That's where farmed animals get it from, they don't just create it on their own.

Really, reasons for why universal or near-universal veganism is a terrible idea are myriad and you'd know them if you used the Internet for anything other than confirming your preconceived notions.

The freaking United Nations wants people to move to move to a meat/dairy-free diet, are you really going to disagree with them? Watch the documentary Cowspiracy on Netflix, I can guarantee it will change your mind.

[–]Vivillontrainer 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

In what way is meat-eating necessary for anyone well-off enough to use reddit? There are vegan supplements for b12 that aren't derived from seaweed (the ones I take, for example), and they are dirt cheap (I have 52 tablets and I only need to take one a week, all for only $10.00). Should I just not voice my opinion on any issue that I feel is one of moral significance just because others might be offended?

[–]nanbullen -3ポイント-2ポイント  (8子コメント)

In what way is meat-eating necessary for anyone well-off enough to use reddit?

I suggest you google PCOS and diabetes.

There are vegan supplements for b12 that aren't derived from seaweed (the ones I take, for example)

No shit.

and they are dirt cheap (I have 52 tablets and I only need to take one a week, all for only $10.00)

Let's see how cheap they are when/if seven billion people need them.

Should I just not voice my opinion on any issue that I feel is one of moral significance

You're free to say whatever you like, but so is everyone else.

just because others might be offended?

I'm not offended, I just think you're an idiot who for some reason needs to feel morally superior to others and chose an eating disorder to achieve it.

[–]Vivillontrainer 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Do you have PCOS or diabetes? Are you unable to get supplements now for the price I mentioned?

You aren't offended? Then why does it matter if I'm "condescending" just for existing? In what way are you not being condescending by calling every vegan alive a self-righteous, pretentious prick?

[–]nanbullen -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you have PCOS or diabetes? Are you unable to get supplements now for the price I mentioned?

Yes I do, actually. I don't need supplements (because I eat like a sane human being), I need a very low-carb diet to treat my illness. If my diet were entirely plant based I'd be diabetic and the size of a house by 35.

You aren't offended? Then why does it matter if I'm "condescending" just for existing?

Because you (or whoever was at the top of the thread) were bitching about the hate you get. I explained why it happens. My not being offended has nothing to do with it.

You're welcome to do and eat whatever you like, but either shut up about your eating disorder and stop ruining your normal friends' dinner parties or accept that a lot of people really aren't going to like you, whether they'll tell you to your face or not.

In what way are you not being condescending by calling every vegan alive a self-righteous, pretentious prick?

Because I'm calling a spade a spade while you're being a self-righteous, pretentious prick.

[–]Vivillontrainer 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Okay, sure. I was unaware of your condition. I would apologize, but it's clear you're an asshole. The vast majority of people in "developed nations" are more than capable of maintaining a vegan diet as they do not have any issue with eating carbs as you do.

In what way am I being self-righteous? I didn't even want to post on this thread until you starting attacking this guy without good reason. All he did was vent for a moment about his experience being a bisexual vegan in an area that is supposed to be a safe area for bisexual people. He didn't call anyone immoral, evil, or inferior; those were all things you assumed he would say because he is a vegan.

[–]missambs -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is why people hate you. You're preaching your religion and telling them they're going to hell. If you were talking about Jesus, you'd be a raving lunatic judging other people and inflicting your one-way views on them.

You still are if it's veganism. It's not for you to convince them. You won't. Stop.

Edit: yes fine, people can be convinced. It still makes you a jerk to preach at people unsolicited.

[–]ifound_molly 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not joining the argument, so I'm going to say something non-controversial. It is entirely possible to "convince" people to go vegan, however I think "influence" is a better word. I have been vegan for 11 months and I have "influenced" 10 people to go vegan, all of whom still are vegan to this day. How else do you think veganism has grown so much over the past few years??

[–]trebmald -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is exactly where the problem is. Telling someone that there own personal choice is wrong IS hate speech. It's no different than those evangelicals telling others that they're sinners damned to hell just because they don't live by the bible. Both things are exactly the same and both are hate speech. It's been my experience that this is usually where it starts so naturally things escalate from there.

I agree it's bad to counter hate with more hate but please don't pull the calling the kettle black sort of thing.

[–]lnfinity 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Something is only a personal choice if it doesn't impact others. Can you think of any individuals who might be harmed by your decision to consume animal products?

[–]trebmald -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Nope.

...or at least no more than anything else done in a modern 21st century world. It's too late to live like the Mennonites or Amish, unless you plan on killing off half the current world's population.

[–]lnfinity 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

You are harming animals by consuming animal products. You are also contributing to huge amounts of environmental damage, and it is a hugely inefficient use of the food we have available.

We grow more than enough food to support a human population that is far greater than currently exists, but a great deal of that gets fed to livestock, and we only get a small fraction of the energy and nutrients that are fed to those livestock back when they are slaughtered.

This is not a small, ancillary issue. This is a matter of life and death for tens of billions of individuals annually. These are individuals who in most cases live their entire lives in deplorable conditions where they suffer immensely.

I am not engaging in hate speech by stating it is wrong to contribute to this harm.

[–]trebmald 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You see. This is exactly what I was talking about. You have prejudged someone based on your own personal beliefs. At best this makes you a bigot. Of course people respond to you with anger. It's no different than some evangelical shouting at me that I'm going to hell because I choose to go shopping on Sunday instead of going to church. If you're lucky people will either ignore you or just tell you to piss off. Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't nice. They're going to respond to your hatefulness with some of their own.

[–]lnfinity 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there anything that you think is wrong? Hurting other people for example? Would it be hate speech for you to tell someone who engages in that act that doing so is wrong?