(cache) Being a vegan bisexual. : bisexual

i'm not vegan (or even vegetarian) and i think you're dead on in analyzing the reactions of people who are negative on veganism. i think you're missing something when you make it seem like this reaction is justified.

reacting negatively to someone advocating for veganism because they don't 'respect your choices' is like reacting negatively to someone who is LGBT-affirming because they don't 'respect your choice' to be homophobic. it's understandable, but not something that should be seen as rational or justifiable.

not all lifestyles or personal habits are equal or equally deserving of respect. i eat meat every day and i see it as a moral failing. reacting negatively when someone challenges the way you live your life is immature - it's better to see it as an opportunity for self-reflection and positive change. if you do serious self-reflection and can 100% say that you're comfortable eating meat, then come back and talk to this person. you'll probably find that what they say doesn't seem that offensive anymore.

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 9時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]immortality7 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 9時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Vivillontrainer 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]immortality7 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Joseph-Gregory 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 10時間前* (6子コメント)

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 9時間前 (5子コメント)

[–]Joseph-Gregory 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 9時間前 (4子コメント)

I think those are all good points, but I will try and respond as to why I think you, yourself, may not agree with them.

Human beings are animals which are at the top of the food chain.

Yes, we are at the top of the food chain. We have the strength, intelligence and sheer brutality to enslave and kill practically any animal that we desire. However, does that make it right? Let's say we weren't at the top of the food chain, and in fact, an alien species moved to earth that were superior to us in every sense of the word. Do you believe it would be morally right for them to do whatever they wanted to us, simply because they can? The food chain argument seems, at least to me, to equate to a 'might makes right' mentality, where the stronger have the ability to whatever they want with those who are lower on the 'food chain.' Would you have any problem with a stronger and more intelligent person killing a weaker, not as intelligent person? The former person would be higher on the food chain, no?

Some animals eat other animals.

Yes, but I think it's important to recognise that animals cannot be held accountable for their actions. You can't teach a lion not to kill a zebra. For one, lions, as far as I know, don't have a moral code when it comes to these matters. And secondly, the lion could not avoid killing the zebra, even if it wanted to, because it is a carnivore. However, as /u/lnfinity conveniently showed us, humans function perfectly fine without consuming animal products. We also can be held accountable for actions, at least when we're not toddlers.

I'd also like to question something. Considering you believe that us killing animals is not cruel because animals kill other animals, do you also believe it is not cruel to kill other humans? We have been killing each other for hundreds of thousands of years, even to this day. Surely, you don't think the murdering of a person is not morally wrong, simply because humans have killed other humans in the past, and continue to do so? If so, what is the difference with killing animals? And if all animals were herbivores, and no animal ate another, would it then be morally good? Is it really a good idea to base our morality on other animals which frequently hurt, rape and kill each other?

Cruelty is causing suffering.

The vast majority of domesticated animals live terrible lives where they are separated from their family members (such as in the case of dairy cows), de-beaked, de-sexed or severely mutilated in other ways without anaesthetic (such as chickens and baby pigs) And generally live short, sad lives where lack of stimulation causes these animals to become severely depressed. Surely you can see that these animals go through a lot of pain to get to our dinner tables. They are suffering immensely by industries that simply aren't payed to take care of their well being. They don't have painless deaths, but instead ones that are painful (causing them to suffer) I'd like to ask you finally, if you believe it isn't cruel to kill an animal, would you say it isn't cruel to kill a human, either? I hope you don't take any of my questions aggressively, as I am very interested in talking to people about what they think is moral / immoral, and definitely want to hear your thoughts on some of the issues I've raised.

[–]thaneofpainpansexual cis-male -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 9時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]justin_timeforcake 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 9時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Joseph-Gregory 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 9時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]Joseph-Gregory 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]nanbullen -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 14時間前* (45子コメント)

I will respectfully explain to people why it is wrong to cause unnecessary harm to other animals.

This is your problem right here. It's an incredibly condescending thing to say. What you mean to say is that you think it's wrong and you're not informed enough to realize it is necessary.

Sure, factory farming could and should be reformed, but humans have been eating meat since before we were humans. All life consumes life. Just because it makes you uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean it's wrong.

There is no significant, natural vegan source of vitamin b12, for starters. If we all took seaweed supplements as most (smart) vegans do, it would likely go extinct or otherwise wreak havoc on the ecosystem.

Really, reasons for why universal or near-universal veganism is a terrible idea are myriad and you'd know them if you used the Internet for anything other than confirming your preconceived notions.

Do you think there is any excuse for the hate speech

You're not a protected class. Calm down. Some people just have a low tolerance for misonformed moral superiority.

[–]phanana 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 10時間前 (1子コメント)

It's an incredibly condescending thing to say. What you mean to say is that you think it's wrong and you're not informed enough to realize it is necessary.

Wait, who's being incredibly condescending here?

humans have been eating meat since before we were humans. All life consumes life.

"Things have been this way, so things must be this way" is is not an argument. Humans are also different from "all life". We have ethical understanding. This is why, for example, we usually treat killing other humans as a crime - because we judge it as an ethical offense.

Just because it makes you uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean it's wrong.

Once again, there are philosophical arguments for veganism (and environmental reasons, of course). The reason is not "oh no poor animals". Read Peter Singer for a good intro to a utilitarian approach!

There is no significant, natural vegan source of vitamin b12, for starters.

True!

If we all took seaweed supplements as most (smart) vegans do, it would likely go extinct or otherwise wreak havoc on the ecosystem.

Wtf lol, no? Do you think multivitamins or other supplements are some kind of a fringe product? B12 is already everywhere, you even have it added in your cereal and fruit juice. Do you seriously think its production isn't flexible enough to get even bigger if needed? (The part about it wreaking havoc on the ecosystem is ironic if you know what raising animals for meat is doing to it.) Also I love how your whole argument is just something that's "likely" aka you simply came up with this idea and think it's super smart.

Really, reasons for why universal or near-universal veganism is a terrible idea are myriad and you'd know them if you used the Internet for anything other than confirming your preconceived notions.

That was your myriad of reasons? Doesn't sound like you're informed on both sides of the argument either. Practice what you preach, stop trying to only sound smart, it isn't working.

[+]nanbullen スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 10時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]The_Ebb_and_Flow 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 13時間前* (32子コメント)

Meat and animal products aren't necessary at all.

American Dietetic Association

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada

A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation

A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

Regarding this point:

Sure, factory farming could and should be reformed, but humans have been eating meat since before we were humans. All life consumes life. Just because it makes you uncomfortable to think about doesn't mean it's wrong.

This is a combination of two logical fallacies Appeal to Nature and Appeal to Tradition.

There is no significant, natural vegan source of vitamin b12,

Apart from the fact that B12 comes from bacteria that live in soil which is incredibly abundant. That's where farmed animals get it from, they don't just create it on their own.

Really, reasons for why universal or near-universal veganism is a terrible idea are myriad and you'd know them if you used the Internet for anything other than confirming your preconceived notions.

The freaking United Nations wants people to move to move to a meat/dairy-free diet, are you really going to disagree with them? Watch the documentary Cowspiracy on Netflix, I can guarantee it will change your mind.

[+]nanbullen スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 13時間前 (31子コメント)

As far as your first wall of redundant citations (which was unnecessary since everyone knows you can live on a vegan diet), you'll notice they all include some phrasing of the qualifier, "properly planned," i.e. supplementation.

If you have to take a pill or eat processed and fortified foods to make your diet work, I'd say that's a pretty good indication that it isn't how your body is meant to function day-to-day. Furthermore, it's widely thought among anthropologists that meat played a big part in making us human. Nothing fallacious about it.

Sure, your body can function on a vegan diet. That doesn't mean it's optimal. There's a reason you all look so tired and waxy.

The one thing you don't have a citation for is your moralistic stance that it's inherently wrong to eat meat, necessary or not. Do most Westerners eat more animal products than technically necessary? Of course. Do factory farms need reform? Absolutely. Should farm subsidies that make the price of meat artificially low and encourage overconsumption be ended? I certainly think so. But whether or not it's wrong is a purely subjective and not logical thing.

A further note on necessity: Are you at all familiar with deer hunting? One of the primary reasons for its legality is because otherwise, the deer will overpopulate and begin to inbreed, leading to destruction of property and crops as well as deformity. Our consumption of deer is literally part of the ecosystem. Life consumes life.

Moreover, the reason the UN is encouraging reduced animal product consumption is because of the massive amount of resources currently popular farming methods use in order to produce them. However, if we took the steps I outlined above, the market would adjust to discourage the overconsumption that is the real, underlying problem.

Finally, on a more personal note: I have PCOS. As such, a low-carb diet high in animal products has been incredibly therapeutic for me and a ketogenic diet even more so, although I haven't gotten around to fully committing yet. If I got my calories purely from plant sources, I'd be the size of a house and diabetic by 35.

10-20% of women in the United States have PCOS. We really don't appreciate your fucking judgment.

[–]TwentyOneParrots 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 10時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]nanbullen -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 9時間前* (0子コメント)

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[–]nanbullen -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 9時間前 (12子コメント)

[–]InfiniteHatred 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9時間前 (11子コメント)

[–]nanbullen -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 9時間前 (10子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]Vivillontrainer 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9時間前 (11子コメント)

[–]nanbullen -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 9時間前 (10子コメント)

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[–]nanbullen -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 9時間前 (8子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]Vivillontrainer 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9時間前 (9子コメント)

[–]nanbullen -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 9時間前 (8子コメント)

[–]Vivillontrainer 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]nanbullen -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 8時間前 (6子コメント)

Do you have PCOS or diabetes? Are you unable to get supplements now for the price I mentioned?

Yes I do, actually. I don't need supplements (because I eat like a sane human being), I need a very low-carb diet to treat my illness. If my diet were entirely plant based I'd be diabetic and the size of a house by 35.

You aren't offended? Then why does it matter if I'm "condescending" just for existing?

Because you (or whoever was at the top of the thread) were bitching about the hate you get. I explained why it happens. My not being offended has nothing to do with it.

You're welcome to do and eat whatever you like, but either shut up about your eating disorder and stop ruining your normal friends' dinner parties or accept that a lot of people really aren't going to like you, whether they'll tell you to your face or not.

In what way are you not being condescending by calling every vegan alive a self-righteous, pretentious prick?

Because I'm calling a spade a spade while you're being a self-righteous, pretentious prick.

[–]Vivillontrainer 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 8時間前 (5子コメント)

[+]nanbullen スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 8時間前 (4子コメント)

Okay, sure. I was unaware of your condition. I would apologize, but it's clear you're an asshole.

No apology necessary since I make a point of not being offended by the mentally ill.

The vast majority of people in "developed nations" are more than capable of maintaining a vegan diet as they do not have any issue with eating carbs as you do.

10-20% of women in developed countries have PCOS and diabetes is skyrocketing. The majority of people who have those illnesses got there by eating high carb diets.

In what way am I being self-righteous?

You think your eating disorder makes you better than everyone else.

I didn't even want to post on this thread until you starting attacking this guy without good reason.

S/he wanted to know why s/he gets so much flack for judging anyone who doesn't have the same eating disorder.

All he did was vent for a moment about his experience being a bisexual vegan in an area that is supposed to be a safe area for bisexual people. He didn't call anyone immoral, evil, or inferior; those were all things you assumed he would say because he is a vegan.

S/he said s/he, "explains" why eating meat is morally reprehensible right after wondering why s/he gets so much hate for it. I explained right back that it's because s/he's an asshat.

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[–]doombybbrbisexual -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)

Useing petrolium oil is not a perfect solution either, both have problems and petrol happens to be more readily available and we have little way of telling the difference between animal petrol and plant petrol, besides the stuff has ALREADY DIED - the idea of avoiding animal products just because it used to be an animal is silly, for one thing the food chain gaurantees that the death of an animal was somehow involved in pretty much every food product. Some of those animals would also not even exist if we didn't want their food, some life is better than none - just because their lives are finite doesn't mean that we can just stop farming them and thus they do not get one in the first place(this is more you makeing a nirvana fallacy than me).

plus what makes animals special and plants not?

We do not have enough of those other oil types right now to sustain it for everybody and not all engines can handle it, thus corrently it isn't viable to be vegan in such a circumstance(the cars that can use that fuel type are not as cheap, also not everywhere sells that fuel)

[–]moeris 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]immortality7 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 10時間前 (0子コメント)

bisexual

reddit-bisexual@irc.freenode.net

調停者