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Shell shocked soldier, 1916 (imgur.com)

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[–]SpermWhale 436ポイント437ポイント  (519子コメント)

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The more low tech the war, the more barbaric it is. Imagine the medieval times.

[–]recreational 3832ポイント3833ポイント  (518子コメント)

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There's a lack of appreciation in this and other comments, I think, for why WWI was so traumatic for soldiers.

There's an ebb and flow over military history between the offense and the defense having the upper hand. In the last major European war before WWI, the Franco-Prussian War, the offense had the edge; Germany won via its decisive and swift march onto Paris, disabling France before it could really even get in the fight. Decades later, however, by the time WWI began, technology had changed; advances in artillery, machine gun, railway systems, fortifications, etc., and even the adaptation of some low-tech stuff like barbed wire, made the defense much more powerful than the offensive technology that existed at the time.

But the mindset that everyone was operating under was still based on that last major war. This was the rationale behind Germany's invasion of France through Belgium- it believed it had to move quickly to disable France, or it would lose a two-sided war against France and Russia. Likewise, the cult of the offensive dominated French thinking; there was a strikingly testosterone-driven belief that a fervent charge of bayonets was enough to overcome any machine gun fire. And let's not even get started on cavalry. This was the first war in history where cavalry was finally and completely rendered obsolete, and the generals did not adapt well, they were still sending cavalry out to be massacred by machine gun fire even by the time the war ended.

The point is, you have this dynamic where the technology of the time says, "Sit and defend," and the generals say, "Go out and charge!" And the shocking thing is how long it takes the military leadership, especially of the Entente, to adapt; and how frequently they relapse. Really why the war dragged as long as it did; the Germans were better, although by no means perfect, at learning not to bleed themselves dry (culminating ultimately in the intentionally flexible Hindenburg line, while the French were still ordering their men to never yield an inch of ground.) So there's this cycle of long squalid tedium, guys sitting in mud holes getting eaten alive by bugs and fungi and their own bodies, eaten cold food out of tins, interrupted by the occasional pointless but massive bloodletting as whoever's in charge this month initiates another stupid offensive that he sells back home as being decisive and sure to break the stalemate, but maybe, at best, gains a few square miles of territory- as often as not lost again six months later.

And meanwhile the artillery. WWI has lots of poison gas, although it's not very effective in the final tally, and snipers and machine guns, and sappers that explode a line from underneath you; but all together none of them take near the toll that the artillery does. WWI was the war for artillery, dominated by the big guns, with tanks and functioning bombers still in the future. The industrial countries blow through millions of tons of artillery shells, cratering and re-cratering the landscape, first indiscriminately and then in creeping waves as they learn how to use them; the entire peace-time reservoirs of shells are expended in months at the start of the war, and they churn out more, the later battles often using in a matter of days as many shells as even existed in the world in 1912. Being on the frontlines usually meant being surrounded by the constant shock and roar of the big guns, always meant living in fear that you could be snuffed out in an instant by them; and besides the pure psychological terror, meant exposure to literal shockwaves that were constantly fucking with your brain in ways we're just coming to grips with today as we deal with combat veterans who've been exposed to IEDs.

So to recap; if you're a soldier in WWI, you're spending your time in a squalid trench- German trenches were constructed better but made up for it with the severe shortages of pretty much everything caused by the British naval blockade, so that almost everything you ate or wore was a poor substitute made from something else; paper shoes and acorn coffee. Most of the time is a constant tedium undergirded by the fear that at any second a massive offensive could be launched, or even just a random burst of artillery fire, that reduces you to powder without your ever hearing or seeing a warning of it. This is the best case scenario. Worst case scenario you're in an offensive and your general is sending you out to get ground up against the enemy's defenses, with deserters getting shot or hung, trying to crawl through shell-blasted mud and barbed wire into a nest of machine gunners. Slightly luckier and you're on the defense, which is great as long as you don't get gassed or an artillery shell doesn't land on you, or sappers don't blow up the entire ridge you're sitting on, or snipers don't see your head sticking up, or just caught at the hammer point of an all-out offensive that might peter out a few miles forward but is going to sweep you aside through sheer mass of numbers.

And this just goes on. And on. That's what drives people mad. All this thunder and blood and mud and nothing changes. Some of the battles themselves drag on for months of near-constant murder. Maybe if you have a good general you get rotated through so you're not constantly living under the guillotine, but more likely your commander has you or a bunch of your buddies killed for a few worthless square miles you have to give up again when he realizes he can't defend them effectively.

The "Stabbed in the Back" myth that Hitler would use later to help rise to power held that the German army was never defeated in the field, that it lost to politicians at home. The first part is actually kind of true though. Even on the run at the end, the Germans inflicted about as many casualties as they took. The thing is they were never really victorious in the field, because battles during WWI just weren't winnable, really. To either side. The technology meant that both sides were just slowly, painfully bleeding each other until someone gave up. To the soldiers this meant there was no hope of victory- but also no hope even of defeat. Just sitting there, waiting to die.

And all war is barbaric, but it's not hard to see why WWI was so unusually tormenting to the mental well-being of those who fought it.

edit: Sweet, tasty karma. I am studying to become a history teacher, actually. Also if you found the above interesting you want to read A World Undone by GJ Meyer, definitely the best comprehensive and introductory resource on WWI I'm aware of. Goes into all of the above with much more awesome detail, also delves into the incredibly interesting and frustrating story of the series of fuckups that led to war breaking out in the first place, which was hardly the unavoidable outcome you probably read in your gradeschool textbook.

[–]llordlloyd 182ポイント183ポイント  (51子コメント)

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There was a single ridge outside Verdun that was fought over by thousands of soldiers for months. After a while, the soil had a discernible characteristic of fetid, rotting flesh, churned over every time a shell landed.

The above also needs to be posted whenever any dickhead refers to the French as cowardly. As the most ardent believers in the cult of the offensive, the French poilu was involved in more sacrificial, suicidal actions than any other army.

[–]Hans_Zimmer_Gruber 78ポイント79ポイント  (37子コメント)

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Thank you. I understand that most people aren't being serious when they give the French shit about cowardice, but it drives me crazy because the French have, throughout history, been some of the most consistently tough motherfuckers around.

[–]GrandOak 31ポイント32ポイント  (27子コメント)

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My view on it is most people see the french as cowardly by their lack of international military presence and hesistance to get involved. But if someone comes at the French there is none more suited to hold their territory. Theyre too pompous to let someone walk over them

[–]labrys 42ポイント43ポイント  (0子コメント)

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doesn't help that one of their main rivals throughout history was England, and when England expanded it's empire to cover a third of the globe they took the negative french stereotypes with them.

[–]g00n 16ポイント17ポイント  (15子コメント)

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Is anyone aware of any scholarly work where the trope of the French as cowards is analyzed? Did it only arise after the rapid takeover of Paris during WW II or had it been present in some form beforehand?

I think the Italian army had a reputation as being incompetent and ineffective, but not so much cowardly. It's only the French that have this reputation. Given the fact that the French were (and to some extent still are) a major military power for the last millennium, it certainly is undeserved.

[–]GrandOak 31ポイント32ポイント  (10子コメント)

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I can't speak on behalf of other countries, I feel like in America people make fun of the French and have no basis other than "its funny to". Given that the education system likes to talk about how awesome America is and doesn't go in depth on other countries, people are unaware of France longstanding history as a world superpower.

[–]2to_the_fighting_8th 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

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To many Americans, the basis is primarily (but not solely) in their rapid capitulation in WWII. At best, the visual is of effeminate milquetoasts in berets reading poetry to each other at a cafe, sipping coffee out of little cups, while a swastika flag fluttered from top of the Arc de Triomphe, unwilling to fight for their own country (aside from the handful of ineffective partisans that are often cited as evidence that the French were resisting!), and relying instead on American, British, and Canadian men to come across the sea and bleed for their freedom. At worst, they are seen as enthusiastic partners of the Nazis, who could hardly wait for the last notes of "Deutschland Uber Alles" to be played in the streets of Paris before they were goosestepping down the Champs Elysees to round up their own Jews to put on trains bound for concentration camps.

But that's not what really chaps many Americans' hides. It's that after putting our men on transports to storm murderous beaches, we were rewarded by a government that purposefully stymied America's purposes. They felt that, after being dragged overseas, and forced into two European wars over our own desired isolationism, we were forced into a position of Cold War leadership, where we were constantly harped on and sniped at by and ungrateful France. The French withdrew from NATO, elected socialists to office, and pushed for a European Union, where they could reinvent their 19th-century dreams of being the big boy on their block, a role that some would argue the French abandoned when they lazily surrendered while the Russians were fighting the Nazis and dying block by block, house by house, man by man. The American-Soviet Cold War relegated France to a secondary role, that of an aging matron, whereas they saw themselves as a dashing debutante. So the French saw themselves as a political "counterbalance" to the primary nation that was working to keep Western Europe free from the Communists.

Even more galling is the perception that the French are extremely rude people, particularly to Americans, when we perceive that they owe us an enormous debt of gratitude.

Those who make these arguments have very short historical memory. They fail to recognize that the French military was of inestimable importance in freeing our nation from the British crown. They were certainly acting in their own interests, but one cannot argue that the French impact on the war wasn't crucial. For all his present-day deification, General Washington wasn't exactly a Patton.

I imagine most people who hold these prejudices are people who rarely travel outside their own little town, let alone travel internationally. In my personal experience, the more elderly French ARE quite polite to Americans, in spite of our general poor grasp of their language, and insistence that they speak English with us. There are many rude younger people in Paris, but that seems to be an urban problem. Ever been to New York? I've met many people in Provence who were perfectly delightful, and none that meet the ugly stereotype. Honestly, some of the rudest francophones I've met happened to be French-Canadian in Montreal; but I still wouldn't apply the label "rude" to French-Canadians in general on the basis of a few cranky folks.

[–]1da1da 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Parisian working- and lower-middle-class folk have a loooong history or rudeness. They were rude to their kings.

[–]Tangential_Diversion 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

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I was actually under the impression it was from the start of the war in Iraq. I remember when France refused to join the war and spoke critically of it, there were lots of talk in the US about the French being socialist cowards. There was that huge move to distance ourselves from France, most notably in the "Freedom Fries" thing.

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    [–]davehaha 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

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    The French military in WW2 unfortunately did not do as well as their friends in WW1.

    [–]ramp_tram 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

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    The French resistance kicked a lot more ass than people realize.

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      [–]porkpie-hat 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      That was so good! I found myself totally absorbed.

      [–]Rondoggg 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

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      When i visited Verdun it amazed me that, under the trees, the ground still rolls with the punches from shells that landed 90+ years ago.

      [–]Porges 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Found this picture on Wikipedia.

      [–]ZeMar 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      To each nation its own stereotypes, I guess.

      Take the German army. A ruthless, inflexible but nigh invincible behemoth, you would think. And yet, it treated its soldiers better than pretty much any other nation during WW1, having as few executions as possible and leaving a good deal of independence to its officers on the field. On the other hand, it lost the war to absolutely horrible strategical decisions, such as waging submarine warfare against the United States, waging an agressive offensive when it could have pleaded for peace, or favouring ridiculous super weapons over lighter but far more efficient tanks. The Central Powers actually outnumbered the Allies by early 1918 after Russia surrendered, but failed nonetheless.

      And the French army... Well, it was actually Soviet-like in its ruthlessness and plagued by blatant inequalities between the average soldiers and the officers. On the other hand, it made giant leaps in terms of tactics and industrial production in merely four years, bringing semi-automatic rifles, light tanks, LMGs, and rapid-firing artillery to the battlefield.

      [–]nijahd 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Pictures of Verdun for the curious

      [–]Random_Cataphract 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      I always think that the stereotype comes from more recent frenchmen, and I think THAT is because they're entire young male population got killed off twice within a generation.

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        [–]mcbi4kh2 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

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        This from Captain Corelli's Mandolin has always stuck with me. A soldier explaining to a mother how her son died:

        "When did he die, Signor? Was it a good day?"

        "He died on a fine day, Signora, with the sun shining and the birds singing."

        (He died on a day when the snow was melting and when, from beneath that carapace, there were emerging a thousand broken corpses, knapsacks, rusted rifles, water-bottles, illegible unfinished letters drenched in blood. He died on the day when one of our men realised that he had entirely lost his genitals to frostbite, put a rifle barrel into his mouth, and blew away the back of his head. He died on the day when we found a corpse with its trousers down, squatting against a tree, frozen solid in the act of straining against the intractable constipation of the military diet. Beneath the fundament of the dead man lay two tiny nuggets of blood-streaked turd. The cadaver wore bandages in the place of boots. He died on a day when the buzzards came down from the hills and began to tear the eyes from those long dead. The Greek mortars were coughing over the bluff, and we were buried in the hail of mud. It was raining.)

        "He died in action, Signor? Was there a victory?"

        "Yes, Signora. We charged a Greek position with bayonets and the enemy were expelled."

        (The Greeks had repelled us for the fourth time with a barrage of mortar fire. They had four machine-guns above us where they could not be seen, and we were being cut to pieces as we fell back. Eventually we received a command rescinding the order to take the position, since it was of no tactical significance.)

        [–]happybadger 47ポイント48ポイント  (10子コメント)

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        What's really interesting to me is how profoundly World War 1 changed art and the mindset of those not even in the trenches.

        Prior to the war, art was pretty. That's not to demean it, but it was something the nouveau riche went to see between meals in a clean museum filled with scenes of tranquility and exploration. We had just come out of impressionism and the art of the day, from post-impressionism's naivety and vibrancy to cubism's worship of the industrial age and human progress, reflected this deep love of the accomplishments of the present and potential of the future.

        In many ways, we were on the verge of adopting the Technochrist and outright worshiping machines. On one end you had people painting aeroplanes and automobiles with the same reverence that renaissance painters gave god and human form, even the most recognisable building of the era being a gigantic steel erection dedicated to engineers and scientists, and on the other end you had technocratic extremists like the Italo-futurists who outright called for the burning of museums and total purge of Old Europe.

        Then the Technochrist gave us machine guns and the ability to slaughter each other on a scale not even the grandest sociopath could wish for. It was a war that no one walked away from alive, and overnight you had an incredible shift in culture.

        Enter Dada. Dada wasn't just art, it was a coping mechanism that stretched across every medium. Out was nature and serenity, in were collages of horribly disfigured man and machine-beasts. Text swirled around newspaper clippings and crude, distorted illustrations, screaming faces carried nonsense babyspeak in their mouths, machines and urban pleasures were smashed together into a meaningless material ball and then pasted over by mindlessly assembled fragments of passages.

        It wasn't just because the artists of the era were buried in their trenches across France, European society as a whole realised what the modern age brought with it and fell out of love with progress. We fell into a deep Zeitgeist depression and the next two decades were nothing but the outbursts of traumatised children trying to cope with unimaginable loss.

        War in general is terrible, but it's not called the Great War because it was big. We didn't survive that war.

        [–]mcpasty666 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

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        Wow, thank you for that. I'd never had Dada explained properly before. You're awesome!

        [–]happybadger 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

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        Aye! There's a really fantastic book that touches on the shift for a chapter, The Shock of the New by Robert Hughes. That point in art history is one of the most radical and blindingly fascinating shifts we've ever undergone culturally.

        edit: Actually, $20-40 on Amazon is pretty steep. If you'd like, I could type out the relevant pages.

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          [–]NegativeD 273ポイント274ポイント  (156子コメント)

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          Awesome read, thank you. Submitted to best of!

          [–]recreational 496ポイント497ポイント  (148子コメント)

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          Thanks.

          On the upside I think WWI left us with some of the most beautifully haunting poetry in the history of war; it was the inspiration for T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land, Yeats's The Second Coming, and Wilfred Owen's Dulce Et Decorum Est, amongst many others. The latter I think is especially compelling because Owen himself died in action very shortly before the end of the war. It's sort of a brutally gentle smackdown to all of the rah-rah patriotism that was getting wide play in the press at the time, saccharine ballads of imagined glory by old men who were never at the front lines;

          Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

          [–]sailors_jerry 96ポイント97ポイント  (1子コメント)

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          The one that always makes me shudder is 'Suicide in the Trenches' by Sigfried Sassoon:

          I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

          Absolutely haunting.

          [–]Bjidgel 241ポイント242ポイント  (72子コメント)

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          In Canada as a kid we learnt In Flanders Fields 

          In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

          Wikipedia article about the poem

          [–][deleted] 76ポイント77ポイント  (17子コメント)

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          Same for Australian soldiers.

          Lest we Forget.

          [–]CaptainCraptastic 56ポイント57ポイント  (0子コメント)

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          Lest we forget.

          "They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them."

          [–]koshercowboy 33ポイント34ポイント  (11子コメント)

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          For you, my brother.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFCekeoSTwg

          [–]char2 21ポイント22ポイント  (5子コメント)

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          That song gets me every time, though the version I have is by the "Franklin B. Paverty Bush Band". If we're sharing these kinds of songs, I'd like to offer Motorhead's 1916.

          And relating to a different war, Saxon's Broken Heroes.

          [–]meaganmollie 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

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          Different war, but I Was Only Nineteen ruins me every time.

          [–]BaronVonRad 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

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          Agreed. I loved The Herds version of that song too, some didn't, but the effort, care and passion they put into making it speaks for itself. I remember seeing a making of where they played it at an rsl to the vets, not a dry eye. One bloke said something like 'they speak too quickly for me, but they've made it relevant for a generation we thought didn't care'. And my mum cried like I've never seen when I showed it to her, something with that kind of impact can't be denied.

          Link for those who haven't seen/heard it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns82tHhJOr0

          Also love No mans land by Eric bogle. A great version was done by Gotye, Clare Bowditch and Tim Rogers a while ago. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFUKwudr7Ps

          [–]2Rare2Kill 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

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          Iron Maiden's Paschendale is another good one.

          [–]koshercowboy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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          thanks for that.

          also, this is highly relevant, about Balaclava in 1854 during the Crimean War. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADBo0s4CbvM

          [–]mypasswordismud 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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          Wow, thanks for that Motörhead song. Made me think of Warsaw, aka Joy Division. This always puts a lump in my throat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeJYAp3BEN8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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              [–][deleted] 13ポイント14ポイント  (9子コメント)

              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

              You may not see this, but as an old Jarhead, in bootcamp we hear a lot about the Battle of Belleau Wood (where the name Devil dog or Tuefelshunden came from) , could you explain how this battle was different (if it was) from the conventional trench warfare of the time, and if you don't have the time to discuss, could you point me to some reading that isn't so up the Marine Corps ass as to be rational.

              Thanks in advance!

              [–]LustLacker 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

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              Hey brother,

              I went there in the 90's, awesome place. As a US service member/former member they'll let you comb through the woods and take what you find.

              So, at the south end of the wood still stands the farm fields USMC crossed to start the offensive. They stepped out of a tree line and walked in four waves toward the German MG's. This is where USMC senior leadership disregarded lessons learned by the UK and French, using ye olde tactics. German MG's just mowed them down.

              If you go there, to this day (at least, until 1999 when I was there last), at the south end of the wood are the German positions from the first day of the battle. Just in the treeline runs a granite rock formation, with a split that forms a trench, with a high granite wall behind and a shelf out toward the open field. THis is where the German MG's were set up, and there are still PILES AND PILES of brass casings rotting under the leaves. You can clearly see where MG positions were, judging by the brass mountains. You can see the granite wall behind the MG positions are pock marked with 1903 Springfield 30-06 rounds as the Marines tried to shoot the gunners dead. There is a concentration of pock marks directly behind each MG position.

              The entire wood is filled with stories like this, written in the rocks and shell craters. There are two forests there, the white ghosts of the ancient trees that were cropped to an even height by arty, and the almost 100 year old new trees growing up above them. There is the Woodsmens' Lodge at the North end of the wood where a German officer was captured. Not far from there is a swamp where a US round burrowed down into a German munitions bunker and cratered a lake. There are abandoned trenches filled with leaves and brass and rifle cleaning kits and chempro masks and rusting T&E's and we even found a skeletal hand with an EGA ring on it.

              We took metal detectors, found many interesting things. But the last thing we found was an undetonated large bore arty shell, nose first down in the mud. SO there's that out there, too. US put tens of thousands of gas rounds into the north wood the last couple days.

              Teufelhund was probably a self bestowed moniker.

              Oh yes, go to Belleau, people there are awesome, mayor's house is where you can get a drink.

              [–]LustLacker 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

              I should also note the attention and care the French custodians give BOTH cemeteries. The German one is quite lonely, though well maintained. See both, if you can. At the American cemetery is a shrine with the names of the MIA. My relative's name is there, great great uncle sent to war, body never found.

              Also check out Chateau Thierry, and the people there are equally warm and welcoming. You can see the open fields USMC first engaged Germans at 700M with their Springfields. Hire at historian guide there, or sign up for one of the groups. The French historian will have an unbiased insight into the historical happenings. Quite a trip, devil.

              [–][deleted] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

              Thanks! All great info. Next time I find myself on that side of the ocean I will make Belleau Wood a priority!

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                [–]Lux_Perpetua 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                One would think that if German soldiers were to give the US Marines a nickname they would do so in German.

                "Teufelshunden" alone is a nonsesical word and can at best be translated as part of "of the devil dogs", as in "The Of The Devil Dogs are attacking us".

                [–]railmaniac 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                Hmm. How would one say "those fuckers" in German?

                [–]PurpleSharkShit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                "Diese Fickers" I believe.

                [–]Lux_Perpetua 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                If you want to keep the theme of big bad dog the correct term is "Höllenhunde" - hounds of hell.

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                  [–]2Rare2Kill 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  My great grandfather was gassed at the Second Battle of Ypres. He spent the rest of his life in and out of hospital, but did live into his 80s. Apparently he was a wonderful human being, despite the hell he endured.

                  [–]hughwphamill 25ポイント26ポイント  (7子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  take up our quarrel with the foe

                  This poem is the antithesis of Owen's above.

                  [–]Bjidgel 27ポイント28ポイント  (6子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  Historian Paul Fussell criticized the poem in his work The Great War and Modern Memory (1975). He noted the distinction between the pastoral tone of the first nine lines and the "recruiting-poster rhetoric" of the third stanza. Describing it as "vicious" and "stupid", Fussell called the final lines a "propaganda argument against a negotiated peace".

                  -From the Wiki Article about In Flanders Fields

                  [–]cantlurkanymore 19ポイント20ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  This shit pisses me off and somebody brings it up every goddamn time. The man was a DOCTOR people! His foe isn't 'ze Germans' or whoever, it's war itself and those who cause it.

                  [–]hughwphamill 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  Genuinely interested if you have a source for this claim? If true, then the poem itself seems at the very least recklessly ambiguous.

                  [–]cantlurkanymore 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  if you mean the claim that the 'foe' he's talking about is more amorphous than a specific country, then it is just my interpretation, which seems to be what others are doing by taking one line out of context and calling it propaganda. McCrae wrote the poem after a funeral for a fellow soldier, he probably had a more to think about than we can imagine. he wrote from his heart, and it was beautiful. that he felt a surge of vengeance, anger, or w.e and needed to direct it somewhere is only human and it doesn't deserve to be denigrated as 'vicious and stupid' by some armchair observer sixty years later who's never stared down a machine-gun barrel.

                  [–]RainyRat 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  It was dedicated to Owen's "friend", Jessie Pope, who was one of the white-feather brigade that would try to shame young men into joining up during WWII. It's also one of the very few poems that I studied at school and didn't end up subsequently hating.

                  [–]keepsharp 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  This sends chills down my spine every time I hear it.

                  [–]scud121 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  Always brings a lump to my throat whenever I hear it read.

                  [–]seemonkey 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  To you from failing hands we throw The torch

                  So that's where the Canadiens got that line from!

                  [–]tejaco 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  Hell, I didn't know where the poppies as veterans' remembrance came from!

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                    [–]FatMansPants 31ポイント32ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                    Like in Lord of the Rings, Tolken was talking about his time in the Somme when he was describing the Marshes of the dead.

                    *They walked slowly, stooping, keeping close in line, following attentively every move that Gollum made. The fens grew more wet, opening into wide stagnant meres, among which it grew more and more difficult to find the firmer places where feet could tread without sinking into gurgling mud. The travellers were light, or maybe none of them would ever have found a way trough.

                    Presently it grew altogether dark: the air itself seemed black and heavy to breathe. When light apperared Sam rubbed his eyes: he thought his head was going queer. He first saw one with the corner of his left eye, a wisp of pale sheen that faded away; but others appeared soon after: some like dimly shining smoke, some like misty flames flickering slowly above unseen candles; here and there they twisted like ghostly sheets unfurled by hidden hands. But neither of his companions spoke a word.

                    At last Same could bear it no longer. "What's all this, Gollum?' he said in a whisper. "These lights? They're all round us now. Are we trapped? Who are they?'

                    Gollum looked up. A dark water was before him, and he was crawling on the ground, this way and that, doubtful of the way. 'Yes, they are all round us,' he whispered. 'The tricksy lights. Candles of corpses, yes, yes. Don't you heed them! Don't look! Don't follow them! Where's the master?'

                    Sam looked back and found that Frodo had lagged again. He could not see him. He went some paces back in the darkness, not daring to move far, or to call in more that a hoarse whisper. Suddenly he stumbled against Frodo, who was standing lost in thought, looking at the pale lights. His hands hung stiff at his sides; water and slime were diping from them.

                    'Come, Mr. Frodo!'said Sam. 'Don't look at them! Gollum says we mustn't. Let's keep up with him and get out of this cursed place as quick as we can - if we can!'

                    'All right,' said Frodo, as if returning out of a dream. 'I'm coming. Go on!'

                    Hurrying forward again, Sam tripped, catching his foot in some old root or tussock. He fell and came heavily on his hands, which sank deep into sticky ooze, so that his face was brought colse to the surface of the dark mere. There was a faint hiss, a noisome smell went up, the lights flickered and danced and swirled. For a moment the water below him looked like some window, glazed with grimy glass, through which he was peering. Wrenching his hands out of the bog, he sprang back with a cray. 'There are dead things, dead faces in the water,' he said with horror. 'Dead faces!'

                    Gollum laughed. 'The Dead Marshes, yes, yes: that is their names.' he cackled. ' You should not look in when the candles are lit.'

                    'Who are they? What are they?' asked Sam shuddering, turning to Frodo, who was now behind him.

                    'I don't know,' said Frodo in a dreamlike voice. 'But I have seen them too. In the pools when the candles were lit. They lie in all the pools, pale faces, deep deep under the dark water. I saw them: grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad. Many faces proud and fair and weeds in their silver hair. But all foul, all routting, all dead. A fell light is in them.' Frodo hid his eyes in his hands. 'I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them.'

                    "Yes, yes,' said Gollum. 'All dead, all rotten. Elves and Men and Orcs. The Dead Marshes.*

                    [–]bamdastard 57ポイント58ポイント  (8子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    motorhead 1916

                    16 years old when I went to war,
To fight for a land fit for heroes,
God on my side,and a gun in my hand,
Counting my days down to zero,
And I marched and I fought and I bled
And I died & I never did get any older,
But I knew at the time, That a year in the line,
Is a long enough life for a soldier,
We all volunteered,
And we wrote down our names,
And we added two years to our ages,
Eager for life and ahead of the game,
Ready for history's pages,
And we fought and we brawled
And we whored 'til we stood,
Ten thousand shoulder to shoulder,
A thirst for the Hun,
We were food for the gun,and that's
What you are when you're soldiers,
I heard my friend cry,
And he sank to his knees,coughing blood
As he screamed for his mother
And I tell by his, side,
And that's how we died,
Clinging like kids to each other,
And I lay in the mud
And the guts and the blood,
And I wept as his body grew colder,
And I called for my mother
And she never came,
Though it wasn't my fault
And I wasn't to blame,
The day not half over
And ten thousand slain,and now
There's nobody remembers our names Í
And that's how it is for a soldier. Ð

                    [–]PointyOintment 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    Formatting tips:

                    • To get it all monospaced, put three spaces at the beginning of each line.

                    • To get it all on separate lines without making separate paragraphs, but in the normal font, put two spaces at the end of each line.

                    I see you did the first thing, but for some reason, it's not working. Maybe put two spaces at the end of each line.

                    Also, the link to YouTube at the top of your comment isn't showing up at all for me. I don't see anything before "16 years old".

                    [–]TheNecromancer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    That track really caught me off guard first time round. Right before it is Shut You Down, a classic Motörhead rocker. Then this comes out of nowhere. It's absolutely beautiful, and Lemmy ranks it as one of his favourites. Just a shame it'll never get a live airing...

                    [–]AlwaysBeBatman 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    Ah, if we're quoting great rock-and-roll songs about WWI, well... there can't be TOO many of those. Here's one that shouldn't be left out: Joe Jackson's "Tango Atlantico"

                    It's Christmas time again,
                    Ah, has it really been a year?
                    And the soldier sighs again,
                    And thinks about his kids and English beer
                    Puts on his boots again
                    And steps into the pissing rain.
                    And the clouds look just like dirty sheets,
                    But at least he's got a job and he knows he can't complain.

                    And you may think that this song comes too late,
                    But lest we forget--
                    This Tango Atlantico isn't over yet.

                    Can you imagine this? The General and the Lady dance.
                    She flashes Victory signs and smokes cigars,
                    He shines his medals up for one last chance!
                    They make a pretty pair
                    But no one understands their game
                    Because they can't agree about the stakes--
                    They can't agree on anything! They can't even agree on the name!

                    And you may think that this song comes too late,
                    But lest we forget--
                    This Tango Atlantico isn't over yet.

                    Sorry Tony, lost a foot!
                    No more soccer for you!

                    And you may think that this song comes too late,
                    But lest we forget--
                    This Tango Atlantico isn't over yet.

                    [–]2Rare2Kill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    One of the few songs that can bring me to tears.

                    [–]CzarApex 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    Christmas in the Trenches

                    My name is Francis Tolliver, I come from Liverpool. Two years ago the war was waiting for me after school. To Belgium and to Flanders, to Germany to here I fought for King and country I love dear. 'Twas Christmas in the trenches, where the frost so bitter hung, The frozen fields of France were still, no Christmas song was sung Our families back in England were toasting us that day Their brave and glorious lads so far away.

                    I was lying with my messmate on the cold and rocky ground When across the lines of battle came a most peculiar sound Says I, "Now listen up, me boys!" each soldier strained to hear As one young German voice sang out so clear. "He's singing bloody well, you know!" my partner says to me Soon, one by one, each German voice joined in harmony The cannons rested silent, the gas clouds rolled no more As Christmas brought us respite from the war As soon as they were finished and a reverent pause was spent "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" struck up some lads from Kent The next they sang was "Stille Nacht." "Tis 'Silent Night'," says I And in two tongues one song filled up that sky "There's someone coming toward us!" the front line sentry cried All sights were fixed on one long figure trudging from their side His truce flag, like a Christmas star, shown on that plain so bright As he, bravely, strode unarmed into the night Soon one by one on either side walked into No Man's Land With neither gun nor bayonet we met there hand to hand We shared some secret brandy and we wished each other well And in a flare-lit soccer game we gave 'em hell We traded chocolates, cigarettes, and photographs from home These sons and fathers far away from families of their own Young Sanders played his squeezebox and they had a violin This curious and unlikely band of men

                    Soon daylight stole upon us and France was France once more With sad farewells we each prepared to settle back to war But the question haunted every heart that lived that wonderous night "Whose family have I fixed within my sights?" 'Twas Christmas in the trenches where the frost, so bitter hung The frozen fields of France were warmed as songs of peace were sung For the walls they'd kept between us to exact the work of war Had been crumbled and were gone forevermore

                    My name is Francis Tolliver, in Liverpool I dwell Each Christmas come since World War I, I've learned its lessons well That the ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and lame And on each end of the rifle we're the same

                    [–][deleted] 40ポイント41ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    My favorite is by Wilfred Owen:

                    Parable of the Old Man and the Young

                    So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
                    And took the fire with him, and a knife.
                    And as they sojourned both of them together,
                    Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
                    Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
                    But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
                    Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
                    and builded parapets and trenches there,
                    And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
                    When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
                    Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
                    Neither do anything to him. Behold,
                    A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
                    Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

                    But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
                    And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

                    [–]koshercowboy 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    Jesus. I've never quite read poetry so harrowing and hopeless.

                    [–]Ftumsh 23ポイント24ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?

                    Only the monstrous anger of the guns.

                    Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle

                    Can patter out their hasty orisons.

                    No mockeries now for them; no prayers nor bells;

                    Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, –

                    The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;

                    And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

                    What candles may be held to speed them all?

                    Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes

                    Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.

                    The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;

                    Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,

                    And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

                    [–]koshercowboy 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    absolutely beautiful. perhaps just as hopeless, but more romantic and less grisly.

                    [–]Ftumsh 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                    Wilfred Owen as well. If you're interested I highly recommend the Ghost Road trilogy by Pat Barker. Gets into the trenches and into the minds of those who suffered, through the experiences of the poets.

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                      [–]tlisia 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      I can never decide whether this or 'Suicide in the Trenches' is more eloquent on the matter. Sassoon's is just so brief and harsh and cruel, yet this so emotive.

                      There's always this bullshit contempt of English Literature but this is why people study it. You compare this to the poems before and after and you can see in the literature how the nature of war itself changed. When you read Tennyson with his Poet Laureate status and all the glory he imbues in 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' you can see exactly what Owen was fighting against in his poetry: the people back home and the years of belief in 'the old lie' as he has it. Admittedly 'Dulce Et Decorum Est' was a direct response to Jessie Pope, but this was an old, established tradition.

                      There is a really interesting collection of First World War poetry, called 'The Men Who Marched Away', and it separates it all in to equal section, the titles of which I can't remember, but kind of like 'Before' and 'After', 'Death' and then it has separate sections on the 'Glory of War', and the the realities of war, and you can see just how the attitudes of the soldier-poets progressed when they got to the trenches, and how much the reports of glory and the enlistment drives back home hurt, maybe even tortured the serving soldiers that they could not save their sons and brothers from this unknown fate. It's devastating but fascinating. It's like they saw no honour or purpose as they had been taught to expect and were fighting for their right to be human and have identity, rather than just be canon fodder.

                      And then later, in the Second World War, Dylan Thomas making himself in to a Poet Laureate figure, but focusing on the home front and what he knew, with 'A Refusal to Mourn the Death, by Fire, of a Child in London' or 'Among Those Killed in the Dawn Raid Was a Man Aged a Hundred'. He never tried to pretend to understand what the soldiers were going through. Thomas is the evidence that whilst so many soldier-poets of the First World War lost their lives in the fields of France, they didn't lose the war they fought over literature, and if people would only read it with respect and attention like the people right here have done, at least a part of their experiences would not have been in vain.

                      I find the First World War to be transitional, in that finally, war could be seen as something traumatic and terrible, not honourable and noble. And that Sassoon, Owen and all the others fought as much for that as they did the Triple Alliance.

                      For reference, as seems to be included here:

                      Tennyson, 'The Charge of the Light Brigade':

                      1.
Half a league, half a league,

 Half a league onward,

All in the valley of Death

 Rode the six hundred.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!

"Charge for the guns!" he said:

Into the valley of Death

 Rode the six hundred.





   2.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!"

Was there a man dismay'd?

Not tho' the soldier knew

 Someone had blunder'd:

Theirs not to make reply,

Theirs not to reason why,

Theirs but to do and die:

Into the valley of Death

 Rode the six hundred.




3.
Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon in front of them

 Volley'd and thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

Into the mouth of Hell

 Rode the six hundred.





4.
Flash'd all their sabres bare,

Flash'd as they turn'd in air,

Sabring the gunners there,

Charging an army, while

 All the world wonder'd:

Plunged in the battery-smoke

Right thro' the line they broke;

Cossack and Russian

Reel'd from the sabre stroke

 Shatter'd and sunder'd.

Then they rode back, but not

 Not the six hundred.





5.
Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon behind them

 Volley'd and thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

While horse and hero fell,

They that had fought so well

Came thro' the jaws of Death

Back from the mouth of Hell,

All that was left of them,

Left of six hundred.




6.
When can their glory fade?

O the wild charge they made!

 All the world wondered.

Honour the charge they made,

Honour the Light Brigade,

 Noble six hundred.

                          

                      Sassoon, 'Suicide in the Trenches':

                          

                      I knew a simple soldier boy.....

Who grinned at life in empty joy,

Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,

And whistled early with the lark.






In winter trenches, cowed and glum,

With crumps and lice and lack of rum,

He put a bullet through his brain.

And no one spoke of him again.





You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye

Who cheer when soldier lads march by,

Sneak home and pray you'll never know

The hell where youth and laughter go.

                           Thomas, 'Among Those Killed in the Dawn Raid Was a Man Aged a Hundred':

                          

                      When the morning was waking over the war

He put on his clothes and stepped out and he died,

The locks yawned loose and a blast blew them wide,

He dropped where he loved on the burst pavement stone

And the funeral grains of the slaughtered floor.

Tell his street on its back he stopped a sun

And the craters of his eyes grew springshots and fire

When all the keys shot from the locks, and rang.

Dig no more for the chains of his grey-haired heart.

The heavenly ambulance drawn by a wound

Assembling waits for the spade's ring on the cage.

O keep his bones away from the common cart,

The morning is flying on the wings of his age

And a hundred storks perch on the sun's right hand.

                          

                      Thomas, 'A Refusal to Mourn the Death, by Fire, of a Child in London':

                           

                      Never until the mankind making

Bird beast and flower

Fathering and all humbling darkness

Tells with silence the last light breaking

And the still hour

Is come of the sea tumbling in harness

And I must enter again the round

Zion of the water bead

And the synagogue of the ear of corn

Shall I let pray the shadow of a sound

Or sow my salt seed

In the least valley of sackcloth to mourn




The majesty and burning of the child's death.

I shall not murder

The mankind of her going with a grave truth

Nor blaspheme down the stations of the breath

With any further

Elegy of innocence and youth.




    Deep with the first dead lies London's daughter,

Robed in the long friends,

The grains beyond age, the dark veins of her mother,

Secret by the unmourning water

Of the riding Thames.

After the first death, there is no other.

                      [–]VolatileChemical 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Great observation, I was thinking about artistic depictions and reactions to WWI as I read your earlier post. The Waste Land is probably my favourite poem, and we studied Dulce decorum in my English course last year, it's great; also, the fourth season of the British series "Blackadder"; hilarious, haunting, moving.

                      [–]evilarhan 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Blackadder Goes Forth really captured the mindset of the war, while remaining absolutely funny. The quiet pathos of Hugh Laurie's line about him being "the only one of the Trinity Tiddlers still alive" in the final episode still gets to me.

                      [–]Trachtas 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      It's on youtube. There ain't nothing like British comedy and its streak of pathos.

                      [–]evilarhan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      :D

                      To anyone who hasn't seen the show, buy it. The series and the specials. And repeat after me: "Wibble."

                      [–]VolatileChemical 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Oh god that last episode, I cry like every time.

                      [–]mahm 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner by Randall Jarrell

                      From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,

                      And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.

                      Six miles from earth, loosed from the dream of life,

                      I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.

                      When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

                      [–]brakattak 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      One of my favorite poems ever. I go back over Wilfred Owen from time to time, and am continually surprised at just how much he still effects me.

                      [–]superstarcrasher 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      affects

                      [–]brakattak 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Ah, you are correct. Wilfred Owen affects me with his poetry, and has an effect on me. See?

                      [–]superstarcrasher 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Forward, together!

                      [–]CTTAAG 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      "An ecstasy of fumbling". Sarah Mclachlan, that's a messed up reference!

                      [–]CcouldBeFunn 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      And some of the bravest fighters. This is a speech made to his troops in the beggining of the war, to gather moral in sight of suicadal mission. By Dragutin Gavrilović:

                      Soldiers, exactly at three o'clock, the enemy is to be crushed by your fierce charge, destroyed by your grenades and bayonets. The honor of Belgrade, our capital, must not be stained. Soldiers! Heroes! The supreme command has erased our regiment from its records. Our regiment has been sacrificed for the honor of Belgrade and the Fatherland. Therefore, you no longer need to worry about your lives: they no longer exist. So, forward to glory! For the King and the Fatherland! Long live the King, Long live Belgrade!

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragutin_Gavrilovi%C4%87

                      [–]MalaysiaTeacher 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Who downvotes this? This poem is still regularly taught in schools (for GCSE English Literature), and never loses its power.

                      [–]Mance_Rayder 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Mate, no-one is downvoting it, its just the way reddit fuzzes the votes

                      [–]meaganmollie 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      I read that in school at fifteen and had no idea. I still have no idea for which I will be forever grateful, but the horror of that poem just brought me to tears.

                      [–]dejaWoot 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      I'm not a poetry man, but Dulce et Decorum est sends chills down my spine every time I read it.

                      [–]kingjs11 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      I was about to link the same poem! Cheers!

                      [–]SlayBelle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Studied this in high school, it's never left me. One of the saddest poems i've ever read in my life.

                      He was also very close to this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Sassoon

                      [–]Jupiter-x 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      For Wilfred Owen lovers I can't recommend highly enough the fantastic War Requiem by Benjamin Britten. It's a choral-orchestral work that features Owen's poetry. It's a little out there, I'll admit. It's not something that's easily appreciated on first listening... I did a performance of it in Germany last spring (I'm American) and it was easily one of the most powerful memories of my musical experience. There's a film version that sets the music to images from the war and silent scenes featuring Tilda Swinton and Sean Bean, as well as Lawrence Olivier.

                      [–]rickster907 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Also, JRR Tolkien scribbled the first words of his mythology on the back of a ration box during the battle of the Somme.

                      [–]Punicagranatum 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      I first read this poem years and years ago, in a high school English class. It made me cry then, much to my class's amusement, and it still makes me cry now. The final lines never fail to send chills down my spine.

                      [–]kylco 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                      Upvote for Dulce et Decorum Est, which remains the only poetry I liked in high school.

                      コメントをもっと表示する (25 返事)

                        [–]dagobahh 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        "Forward he cried,

                        and the men on the front ranks died.

                        The general sat and the lines on the map

                        moved from side to side"

                        ~ Pink Floyd

                        コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                          [–]SultanPeppar 30ポイント31ポイント  (13子コメント)

                          ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                          I would like to recommend that if you haven't read All Quiet on the Western Front that you do so immediately.

                          It is short and poignant.

                          [–]rongonathon 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                          And if you really want to paralyze yourself for a couple of days, follow that up with Johnny Got His Gun.

                          [–]Teal_Cuttlefish 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                          I read that as a teenager in high school. I'm over 50 and still remember the book vividly, and it is not exaggeration to say it is part of the reason I have been anti-war my whole life.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                            [–][deleted] 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            My first thought. Remarque's book is shocking and was universally targeted by various groups. We did interpretations of reviews of this book from from different positions. Monarchists, Nationalists, Communists... That book received much hate in Germany, after all "anti-war" was an insult at that time.

                            Despite that it's one of the most well know German books of that century.

                            [–]MoktorD 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            I would also recommend reading The Road Back, which is the sequel to All Quiet on the Western Front and tells the story of former soldiers trying to gain a foothold in civil life. It's been 10 years or so since I read the two but I remember that I slightly preferred the sequel because it touched me even more. And I consider the books still relevant today.

                            I usually race through books, there are several I finished in one sitting, but these two books totally got to me. I could never read more than two chapter at once, because he described the hopelessness of their characters really well. It was heart-wrenching.

                            [–]SultanPeppar 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            I am sincerely excited about this.

                            I had no idea there was a sequel.

                            You have changed my life a little today.

                            [–]cnc420 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            This book is amazing and not enough people have read it.

                            コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                              [–]ImranRashid 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              As an addendum

                              Generally speaking, as you said, there is a lag period for tactics to catch up to technology, and it is usually the commanders who adapt the fastest to the provisions of said technology that fare the best.

                              One example of this would be the extent to which the Prussian Field Marshall von Moltke swiftly deployed troops through use of locomotives in an amount of time previously logistically impossible.

                              An example of where failure occurs in this regard- you could look to Pickett's charge in the battle of Gettysburg. More accurate rifling, quicker reloading, and things like the Gatling gun mean that the volume of fire faced by a charging infantryman makes a head-on charge suicidal. Am I right in saying the Civil War was America's bloodiest? I've heard that said before, and it's as you say- old world tactics meet new world technology.

                              The Russo-Japanese (thanks doughboy334) conflict at the start of the 20th century is also interesting as it occurred at a rather crucial period in military technology history and represents the entrance of Japan as power on the world stage.

                              One of the most tragic aspects, I think, about WWI is that behind, "old world tactics," existed a concept of honourable sacrifice that was absolutely torn to pieces when the staggering numbers of the deathtolls made their way back home. I mean, the first battle of the Marne killed about half a million soldiers. WTF.

                              [–]lyjobu 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              You are correct Sir, re the Civil War being out bloodiest. More Americans were died during that war than all our others put together.

                              Of course it helps that stat when you remember both sides were us.

                              [–]doughboy334 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              cough Russo-Japanese War, not Sino-Russian. Sino = chinese

                              edit: You're welcome!! :)

                              [–]E3D89 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              I'm German, but I've lived in France and visited a lot of places, these pictures are from my trip to near Verdun, one of the most known battlefields of WW1.

                              First one is just a sign that says: Destroyed village of Fleury-devant-Douaumont

                              http://i.imgur.com/QCuyA.jpg

                              The next ones are where the village should be, there are literally thousands of small craters. Of course, after roughly 100 years, theres lots of vegetation now.

                              http://i.imgur.com/G1VAS.jpg http://i.imgur.com/RPMus.jpg

                              Not spectacular, but it shows clearly how many artillery bombs have dropped.

                              Lastly, there are two pictures of the memorial for the fallen soldiers:

                              http://i.imgur.com/zaom5.jpg http://i.imgur.com/POhiu.jpg

                              [–]Amadeus_McDowell 196ポイント197ポイント  (39子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              I'm always reluctant to post in military topic threads, but I couldn't help myself. You describe the realities of trench warfare very well, but much of your background information is viewed through a single lens of Offense-Defense theory which is interesting academically but not so much so when held to a real test of history and politics.

                              The end result of trench warfare is indisputable for the Western Front, but the Eastern Front was not nearly as you describe it. In fact, there was much military-political infighting within Germany as to the conduct of the war because of this fact.

                              The so called Eastern Team of Hindenburg, Ludendorff, and Hoffman were having a lot success in the East and there was growing resentment within the military towards Chief of the General Staff Falkenhayn for his reinforcement of failure in the West with troops that would have been better utilized in the East where there was success (basic military theory - don't reinforce failure). In fact, there was so much resentment for Falkenhayn that he was dubbed "The Evil Angel of the Fatherland." This in-fighting is all the more exacerbated because of Emperor Wilhelm's inept leadership. Falkenhayn is perhaps best remembered for his horrible strategy for Verdun - a total failure. Later in life, Falkenhayn would argue that he never intended to capture Verdun - only to "bleed the enemy to death." This is a very dangerous proposition strategically speaking as it "elevated the exhaustion of the enemy from a means to an end." (Strachan, The First World War, pg. 68).

                              Back to the cause of the war, you have to consider German fatalism and fundamental organizational issues within the Imperial Army at the time - things brewing since before unification in 1871. The Imperial Army was entrenched in "old army system" ideologies, failed to appreciate civilian control of the Army exacerbated by the fact that all Chancellors after Bismarck were too weak to exert any real control, and finally they actively worked to subvert the authority of the Reichstag. There was no War Minister that could even oversee the entire Imperial Army as the War Minister was actually just the Prussian War Minister. Issues like this compounded problems of control.

                              This is all, by the way, to ignore the fact that the Germans had been itching to get to war for some time... nearly successful several times. The utilization of the 1879 treaty between Germany and Austria was absurd as it was originally envisioned as a promise of mutual support in the event of an invasion of Russia that was principally not due to a provocation by either signatory of the treaty! Bismarck himself spoke of this many times during his day - including once in Vienna. However, this treaty was the justification used to support Austria-Hungary.

                              By the time it came down to it, Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg was unable to keep the soldiers out of politics. He deferred to the military and, thus, "in the end, the great decision of 1914 was made by the soldiers." (Craig, Politics of the Prussian Army, 1640-1945, pg. 291).

                              The bottom line is that Germany wanted a war for a lot of strange and confounding reasons. Certainly, they felt they were better, but they were also fearful of the Triple Entente. Political issues within the Empire enabled the military to hijack the government and, essentially, drag it into war with little protest due to incompetence within the Emperor and the Chancellor. The Reichstag may have thought differently, but the Army had cut them out of this type of decision long ago.

                              With respect to the Franco-Prussian war, I again disagree. It is true that the early victories were quick - although remember it was the French who declared war on Prussia due to fears of mobilization. When Napoleon III was captured after Metz and Sedan, the Second Empire (government) went with him and the 8 Corps of the Army of the Rheine (and nearly all of the reserves at Chalons). The war, however, didn't end on 1 September as it would have seemed. Bismarck (one of his only failures) allowed Napoleon to surrender himself, as an individual, and didn't force him to agree to any broader demands as the sovereign of the Empire. This left the country (and its people) sans a government.... so how to define victory without a loser? At one point, the Germans tried to negotiate through Empress Eugene exiled in England!

                              A government of National Defense stood up under Jules Favre in Paris, and Moltke was pushing to go... Bismarck wanted to wait.. blah blah blah, Moltke just says fuck it and rolls anyhow. Bismarck is not happy. Now the issue is dealing with the French civilians (who were using old US Civil War armaments and basically whatever they could find to fight as an insurgency against the Prussians!!). This drags on for some time... Paris under siege but not really giving in and the people in the hills coming after them. Hell, they had French Naval Officers coordinating and running infantry attacks (naval power wasn't really a factor during this war at all, so the navy officers wanted to get in on some Prussian killing).

                              It took until the late Fall of 1870 for Bismarck to feel truly pressured to do anything about the conflict to expedite it. This outside pressure comes from an international conference to discuss the 1856 Black Sea treaty and Russia's intent to violate it. This pushes Bismarck's hand to the point that he agrees to actually utilize some of the heavy artillery on Paris in an attempt to bend the knee of the civilian resistors (of which there were many).

                              Prussian morale starts to plummet both on the line and at home. No one is interested in becoming "the last casualty of a war that seemed to drag on," (Showalter, The Wars of German Unification, pg. 297).

                              FINALLY, in December a 3 week massive bombardment starts. It's not so good at killing Parisians, but it did bow the head of Jules Favre who finally agreed to the surrender and thus gave the Prussians Alsace and Loraine (and their Empire). Interestingly, Wilhelm was crowned in Versaille DURING the war (18 Jan 1871). The war itself didn't end until May.

                              Again, my point is just that there is so much more to war theory and understanding than the over-simplistic offense-defense model. It has some uses - it is particularly interesting when talking about nuclear powers and nukes as a defensive weapon, etc. But I am much more in line with neoclassical realism when it comes to true military and security studies.

                              I would suggest the following three articles which I think will give you a better perspective on offense-defense theory and its applications:

                              World Politics Vol. 30 No. 2, Cooperation Under the Security Dilemma, by Robert Jervis

                              International Security Vol. 25 No. 1, Grasping the Technological Peace, by Keir A. Lieber

                              International Security Vol. 22 No. 4, Offense, Defense, and the Causes of War, by Stephen Van Evera

                              Finally, you may like:

                              Neoclassical Realism, The State, and Foreign Policy, by Lobell, Ripsmann, and Taliaferro.

                              *Edited for Grammar and the making of sense.

                              [–]LtCmdrSantaClaus 49ポイント50ポイント  (25子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              I'm confused about your point. The original post uses "offense" and "defense" as brief background descriptors of prior wars; what I'm getting from your post is that you disagree with the use of these; but I don't understand what's different.

                              E.g. Are you saying cavalry wasn't obsolete? Are you saying that generals understood the cavalry was obsolete but used it anyway for complex political reasons?

                              What errors would you change about that post to make it more accurate? I don't get why you posted this and I am trying to understand.

                              [–]antejentacular 29ポイント30ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              If I had to guess, I would suggest that recreational has an academic background in history and Amadeus has one in international relations.

                              Amadeus is focusing on the OP's use of the 'Cult of the Offensive' theory to explain the outcome of the First World War. He is suggesting that there are other IR theories that (arguably) offer 'greater' explanatory value.

                              Neorealism, Waltzian or otherwise, suffers from a great many flaws in explaining why war broke out. It really depends on how much weight is put on the existence of an anarchic international system. And whether you believe Wendt's contention that anarchy is what states make of it.

                              Incidentally, Van Evera also wrote an article entitled 'The Cult of the Offensive and the First World War' in which he states quite clearly that: 'the cult of the offensive was a principle cause of the First World War'.

                              No references because I'm lazy. Google is friend.

                              [–]jeaguilar 139ポイント140ポイント  (11子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              I see you are unfamiliar with how academics swing their dicks.

                              [–]fixeroftoys 43ポイント44ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              "You know something, eh? Well you're not entirely correct, my professor talked about this thing over here that is mildly related to your point but is different enough to not contradict it, despite my assertion you are incorrect and that my sliver of knowledge is superior."

                              コメントをもっと表示する (10 返事)

                                [–]Amadeus_McDowell 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                I appreciate your question, and it is definitely valid. Some of the posters below already hit on the thrust of my point (in particular, wolff).

                                The main point is this: Offense-Defense theory is a way to view the possibility or likelihood of conflict, but it is not a complete view in that it ignores the following: civil-military relationships, military-political relationships, sovereign positions in the international system, and normative realities of the international system of the day. It also puts too much weight to technological advancements as we understand them today..

                                The crux of the O-D theory states - briefly - that when technology favors the offense, war is more likely as nations will feel they are able to actually achieve their strategic ends. Some apply more metrics than simply technology, such as: nationalization of the population, military doctrine, strength of alliances, and force size (to name a few). These are additions made in order to strengthen the theory because the tech. dominant "core" of the theory is weak. I believe that if the "core" is rotten, the fruit is bad.

                                E.g., O-D theorists may state that the railroad swung favor towards the offense and therefore it was clear that the Franco-Prussian was going to occur - or at least that a war was going to occur because the tech. advancement ripened the state for conflict, but this is a incorrect. Wars were more frequent between 1850-1871 when neither the Prussian's nor others viewed the railroad as an offensive tool - it was considered favorable to the defense. After 1871 when mobilization realized more authority, the Prussians and others viewed the railroad as more favorable to the offense, but then one must reconcile this fact with the reality that there was 40 years of continental peace between 1871 and WW1.

                                One must also ask how tech. favors the offense... this is an ambiguous approach. Is a rifle an offensive or defensive weapon? Is a tank? Some outfits have more obvious 'assault' qualities such as paratroopers, but this ignores geographic qualities of the defender. Just because some nation can now "reach out and touch" another nation, how does this favor the reaching nation over the nation that never had to go anywhere? Would the static-nation's supply lines, communications ability, and access to resources, etc.. not still be at an advantage by virtue of the proximity of the fight to its boundaries?

                                Also, I disagree that Germany viewed the offense as superior in the build up to WW1. Germany understood the inherent strength of the defense - which is why it ultimately tried to utilize a plan of quick and deep penetration in order to mitigate defensive opportunity.

                                O-D theorists would state that Nuclear Weapons are the most powefull defensive weapon ever created, and thus, a conflict involving or between nuclear powers is unlikely because the offensive is never favored. However, since 1945 there have been many conflicts involving nuclear powers, and even conflicts between nuclear powers (India - Pakistan). Clearly, then, O-D theory falls short (at least in this example) of providing an understanding as to why wars occur.

                                As far as the cavalry statement, I agree that cavalry was largely obsolete - at least in horseback form. My disagreement is less with the conduct of the war than the causes of the war. Much of my first post was just to highlight the general characteristics of the conflict internally. Wars and governments are often viewed as monolithic in nature - this is probably never the case. O-D theory also doesn't really discuss the conduct of a war (except to draw conclusions about ripeness for future conflict based on the apparent power of the O or D) - it goes up to the point of conflict not through the conflict itself.

                                recreational highlights rather well the perspective of the individual soldier on the Western Front. He is largely correct and provides a good view of what that may have been like. I agree with him that the poetry of the day is powerful, as well. I simply disagree that O-D is an appropriate tool to use to advance a complete understanding as to why the (or any) war(s) started in the first place.

                                Does this help clarify? I wrote the last post at 4am, so I apologize for any gaps in my point.

                                EDIT: for clarity, typos, etc. For references, see my previous post.

                                [–]peadar80 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                I am not a fan of the offence-defense theorem myself, however, at the German Imperial War Council of 1912 Moltke proposed an immediate attack while they held the advantage. This supports the offence-defense theorem. Plus, regarding nuclear weapons as being the most defensive weapons, I would agree with this. This is the reason why Iran are allegedly developing nuclear weapons. States don't attack nuclear powered states. Plus since the introduction of nuclear weapons into the equation in 1974 wars between India and Pakistan have been practically ended, bar a minor war in 1999.

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                                  [–]Wollff 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                  The original post uses "offense" and "defense" as brief background descriptors of prior wars;

                                  And that's the point.

                                  Offense and defense are poor descriptors for the Franco-Prussian war, because claiming that it was just won by a quick overwhelming offensive on Paris, is oversimplifying things. It just wasn't quite like that.

                                  Offense and defense are also bad at describing the situation in WWI. Because while there was a defensive stalemate at the Western front, it looked different in the east: There were quite a few successful offenses.

                                  So claiming that it is the technology of the time that forces defensive or offensive warfare, doesn't work.

                                  [–]recreational 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                  Wow, this is a lot to respond to. Thank you for the post. I've gotten a lot of recommendations on things to read/watch/listen to, most of which is new, so I'm going to be a while slogging through that.

                                  I'm aware of the vastly different nature of the war in the Eastern theater. However, the post I made was addressing shellshock, which was essentially a Western front phenomenon, so I intentionally simplified things a good bit to try and bring that experience home (the Franco-Prussian war I actually haven't studied much at all, so on that point I was basically just reiterating the explanations I've heard from others; it's an area I'm interested in and need to bone up more on but I don't have nearly the confidence to offer my own opinions there.)

                                  I only really lightly touched on the causes of the war, because I think it's too complex a subject to treat as a sidebar, so that was another lie of simplification. I also wouldn't want to put the entirety of military history in a prism of simply offense vs. defense; but the balance swung so precipitously towards defense in WWI that I think that really is one of the primary defining features of the war, particularly in the Western front where the fully industrialized powers were going at it; of course there was a lot more movement in other theaters, but that was primarily a result of the relative technological backwardness of the Russians, Austrians, Ottomans, Italians, etc.; and even then there were plenty of spots where the war bogged down interminably.

                                  Appreciate your insights, will try to tackle the recommended literature.

                                  [–]Amadeus_McDowell 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                  Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your response as well as your original post. I'm also glad that you didn't take offense to what I wrote as some thought I sounded dickish/smug/whatever in my post - unintentional if perceived that way. It is an area that I am passionate about and sometimes that doesn't translate as well to text - particularly at 4am.

                                  I think your portrayal of the plight of the soldier on the Western Front was very well articulated and gives great insight. It is also timely. It is important for all of us to recognize the plight of the soldier - shell shock, ptsd, combat stress, whatever as those issues are present in today's wars as well (although obviously MUCH less violent, etc.). It is clearly visible in the extremely high suicide rate of veterans and active duty service members. It's great that you, as a historian, are so well read on this particular issue that is inextricable from conflict but so understudied and considered.

                                  Best of luck on all of your future studies and work!

                                  [–]Koshercrab 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                  Tagging for reading during proper work hours

                                  [–]tpwoods28 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                  Thank you, so so much for that. I'm studying German history, including the great war, and have seen many generalisations and the usual uninformed "all of the war was the western front" bollocks. To see someone who genuinely knows what they're talking about and has a deep understanding of the reality of the subject is completely refreshing and gives me some hope for reddit.

                                  Even more so, I cannot commend you enough for the use of citations in your writing and your referral to further reading. History on reddit is completely stuck in the pointless drudgery of two users hurling their own opinions at each other, without a single cited fact thrown in to the melee. I hope dearly that one day all history on this site will be like what you have presented here.

                                  So thank you, for both showing everyone how it's done and for giving me some hope.

                                  [–]brokenarrow 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                  History on reddit is completely stuck in the pointless drudgery of two users hurling their own opinions at each other, without a single cited fact thrown in to the melee.

                                  [citation needed]

                                  I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll see my way out.

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                                      [–]InPassing 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      My grandfather had one strong memory of WWI that he never forgot even when he became senile. It was of being in the trenches and hearing a lieutenant say "Fix bayonets!" Your description helps me better understand the horror of those words.

                                      [–][deleted] 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      I always find it disappointing that the sociological history surrounding WW1 isn't discussed in as much depth as it could and should be.

                                      The assassination of Franz Ferdinand never really answered why all those countries went to war. Sure, the dynastic history of the alliances, the military movements, and so on was explained, but why the countries and the peoples were so eager and ready to follow that road to war was never explained.

                                      When I was in England, studying WW1 in college, I ended up reading "Riddle of the Sands", learning about invasion literature, and writing a paper on it or a related subject. At the very least there was 40 years of concentrated pulp literature in England, and in the other countries I believe, which aroused peoples attentions and fears, and excited them.

                                      When people talk about how young men were eager to go to war...well, it helps to understand that eagerness if you realize those young men were probably grabbing the paper to read a serial every week, buying cheap novels to read stories - and it was often about invasion, war, the French! The Germans! If you grow up with that and it frames your childhood and adolescence, and it even affects politics on a national scale (which it did!), of COURSE you're eager to go! You've got the prime chance to enter the exciting novels of your youth, what fun!

                                      But that discussion almost never enters classrooms or lecture halls when WW1 comes up. Even my esteemed, world-class professor who focused his career on WW1 didn't bother mentioning this stuff to us. He almost entirely focused on the - to me - lame and useless minutiae of every battles, outcomes, and so on.

                                      TL;DR read "Riddle of the Sands" and find more depth to the origins of WW1 than you thought there were.

                                      [–]jimicus 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

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                                      Suddenly "Blackadder Goes Forth" makes much more sense.

                                      [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      That's one of the best finales of television I've ever seen. While I was watching the series I never would've guessed its ending would have had such an emotional impact on me.

                                      [–]Keats852 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                      You're not entirely right about the tactics... the Russo-Japanese War had been fought with roughly the same weapons, and had also turned to trenchfighting. The Japanese had stormed the Russian trenches and had actually won due to tenacity. This was keenly observed by European generals witnessing the battles, who got the feeling that the army with the highest fighting spirit or 'morale' would be able to achieve victory. The Allies also continued their old tactics because in the end, they would have more men left than the Germans. Pretty easy maths in terms of who could field the largest number of men.

                                      In the end, it could be argued that the Germans were the more civilized people, because the people at home decided that the war was enough, and that admitting defeat was better than to continue the bloodshed.

                                      On a further note: I was once at an ambient metal concert, I forgot the name of the band, but the music was so loud, with such a-rhythmic bass & drums and all kinds of whatever, that I felt overwhelmed by it all. My brain couldn't cope and at that moment, I realized that WW1 must have been similar for the soldiers.

                                      [–]mackduck 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                      Just a memory. every armisice day my Grandmather would cry- she was 10 when the Great War brokr out- and in her words ' all the men, they went away- and they NEVER came back' - still makes me tear up. She explained that, apart from the fact that so many died ( numbers hard to conceive- for nothing) the men who came home were not the same- something was lost....

                                      [–]Banzai51 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                      Along those lines, if you read the pre, during, and post- war literature of the day, you really see that change in mindset for the general populations. WWI is just fucked up on so many levels.

                                      [–]vulpes_occulta 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                      As a history fan, all I can say is wow. You painted the picture astonishingly well. I feel sad that history teachers today often lack the zest and capability that you have exhibited this evening.

                                      [–]SomeGuyInOttawa 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                      Topical for me.

                                      I'm currently re-reading The Guns of August it's fantastic.

                                      Let me recommend for you: Dreadnought by Robert K Massie.

                                      [–]eat-your-corn-syrup 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      To the soldiers this meant there was no hope of victory- but also no hope even of defeat. Just sitting there, waiting to die.

                                      In the movie The Front Line, when North Korea took most of Korea, some South Korean soldiers were captured by communists. A communist general said to them they were losing because they did not know what they were fighting for, then he released them. The general then was confident that he was taking part in liberation. years later, the two Korean governments were negotiating for total cease fire, and soldiers at the front line of both sides had to fight to death for just a few miles back and forth. In the last battle where dead bodies were everywhere, one of the released South Korean soldiers encountered the communist general injured. the soldier asked what the general meant by him not knowing what he was fighting for. and the general said his last word "i used to know what I was fighting for. I don't know any more."

                                      [–]karmerhater 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                      War. War tends to change.

                                      [–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      For anyone interested in some illustrative period literature, here's Alfred, Lord Tennyson's bombastic Charge of The Light Brigade, written in 1854. Virginia Woolf famously used passages of this poem as a synecdoche for Victorian values in her novel To The Lighthouse (1927).

                                      The Charge of The Light Brigade

                                      Half a league half a league,
                                      Half a league onward,
                                      All in the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred:
                                      'Forward, the Light Brigade!
                                      Charge for the guns' he said:
                                      Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.

                                      'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
                                      Was there a man dismay'd?
                                      Not tho' the soldier knew
                                      Some one had blunder'd:
                                      Theirs not to make reply,
                                      Theirs not to reason why,
                                      Theirs but to do & die,
                                      Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.

                                      Cannon to right of them,
                                      Cannon to left of them,
                                      Cannon in front of them
                                      Volley'd & thunder'd;
                                      Storm'd at with shot and shell,
                                      Boldly they rode and well,
                                      Into the jaws of Death,
                                      Into the mouth of Hell
                                      Rode the six hundred.

                                      Flash'd all their sabres bare,
                                      Flash'd as they turn'd in air
                                      Sabring the gunners there,
                                      Charging an army while
                                      All the world wonder'd:
                                      Plunged in the battery-smoke
                                      Right thro' the line they broke;
                                      Cossack & Russian
                                      Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,
                                      Shatter'd & sunder'd.
                                      Then they rode back, but not
                                      Not the six hundred.

                                      Cannon to right of them,
                                      Cannon to left of them,
                                      Cannon behind them
                                      Volley'd and thunder'd;
                                      Storm'd at with shot and shell,
                                      While horse & hero fell,
                                      They that had fought so well
                                      Came thro' the jaws of Death,
                                      Back from the mouth of Hell,
                                      All that was left of them,
                                      Left of six hundred.

                                      When can their glory fade?
                                      O the wild charge they made!
                                      All the world wonder'd.
                                      Honour the charge they made!
                                      Honour the Light Brigade,
                                      Noble six hundred!

                                      Now compare with Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum Est, also known as the "gas poem", written around 1918. Wilson later died in the war. As with the dramatic shift in which war was fought and understood, in which people lived their lives, in which notions of the state and state service changed, there was also a very noticeable adaptation in the literature of the time to reflect these changing social and technological trends.

                                      Dulce et Decorum Est

                                      Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
                                      Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
                                      Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
                                      And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
                                      Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
                                      But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
                                      Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
                                      Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind
                                      Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
                                      Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
                                      But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
                                      And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
                                      Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
                                      As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
                                      In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
                                      He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
                                      If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
                                      Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
                                      And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
                                      His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
                                      If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
                                      Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
                                      Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
                                      Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
                                      My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
                                      To children ardent for some desperate glory,
                                      The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
                                      Pro patria mori.

                                      TL;DR welcome to modernist literature.
                                      EDIT: Formatting. Always formatting.

                                      [–]liberty4e 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      That was very informative. Siegfried Sassoon and Robert Graves were both in WW1 (I'm a fan of their poetry). This is my favourite Sassoon poem about the war. It's titled "Suicide in the Trenches."

                                      I knew a simple soldier boy Who grinned at life in empty joy, Slept soundly through the lonesome dark, And whistled early with the lark. In winter trenches, cowed and glum, With crumps and lice and lack of rum, He put a bullet through his brain. No one spoke of him again.

                                      You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye Who cheer when soldier lads march by, Sneak home and pray you'll never know The hell where youth and laughter go.

                                      [–]jmact1 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                      Another good book on WWI is A Short History of WWI by James Stokesbury, concise, easy to read, and historically accurate.

                                      The concept of defensive warfare and shell-shock was a significant feature of the American Civil War over 50 yrs before WWI. Certainly many military leaders, such as Longstreet and Grant, were well aware of it, but the lessons learned were quickly forgotten. I am reading on WWII again, and one of the reasons the Nazis took Poland as easily as they did at the start of the war was the Polish adherence to horse cavalry tactics rather than use of defensive strategy. Also see Shook over Hell by Eric Dean which documents shell-shock in the Civil War.

                                      Looking over deaths in WWI, I believe that although the soldiers suffered greatly, there were far, far fewer civilian deaths than WWII where killing civilians achieved horrible efficiency and suffering.

                                      Another point is that WWI spawned the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 which killed between 50-100 million people world-wide which dwarfs the 10 million soldiers KIA. One viable theory is that the pandemic started in the US which was gearing up for WWI and killed thousands of young recruits crowded into training camps and on cross-Atlantic troop ships that spread it to Europe. The news blackouts of the time, everywhere except neutral Spain, is why it is called the Spanish flu- It was the only place the pandemic was discussed in the news. More so, it also sickened and eventually killed Pres Wilson, preventing his moderating influence at the Treaty of Versailles, which, if his views had been incorporated in the Treaty, might have prevented WWII. Influenza, BTW, continually mutates, and we are no-more capable of dealing with a lethal strain now than we were in 1918. See the movie Contagion which the directors tried to make as scientifically accurate as possible. Read The Great Influenza by John Barry if you want to scare the shit out of yourself and put WWI in a different perspective.

                                      [–]llordlloyd 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

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                                      Just a note on Poland: many myths have been attached to the Polish forces' performance. They did not charge tanks with horse cavalry. They did use cavalry, as did the Red Army and Germans until 1945. And they probably overdid the horse thing a bit, but only a bit. They had smashed the Bolshevik armies as recently as 1921, well into the age of machine guns and artillery. They were advanced in paratroop methods, and the British built their paratroop forces based on Polish knowledge.

                                      Their air force was not destroyed on the ground in the opening hours. They were fighting a losing but effective battle until the Soviet army invaded eastern Poland, at which point they rapidly surrendered to the Germans as the lesser of two evils (wise as Katyn forest proved) and because they were then in an untenable position.

                                      They in fact did pretty severe damage to the German war machine.

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                                        [–]CloseCannonAFB 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        Motorhead- 1916

                                        [–][deleted] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        My great grandfather fought for Germany, before he and his family immigrated to the US to escape the Nazi Party. Upon his arrival, he voluntarily committed himself to a mental institutuion, where he spent the rest of his life. He willingly separated himself from the lives of his wife, and four sons because of the "shellshock" he suffered from as a result of fighting in WWI. OP really sheds some light on what was going on my great grandfather's head as a result of what went on back then.

                                        [–]Nischaree 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                        Besides being really interesting, I believe you left out an important detail: Soldiers on both sides started rebelling. Especially as you had generals sitting in castles, far far behind the lines deciding over what to do next. This wasn't the only problem, when talking about keeping the soldiers moral high, something small would be the way the 'washed' your clothes in gigantic hot-steam..., things that would kill every parasite but not flea-eggs, aka soldiers would get them back and enjoy their time getting those eggs out. Anyway, this was a really interesting read.

                                        [–]Draskiller 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        That was really well written bud, thank you for that, really. You really know your stuff.

                                        [–]neanderhummus 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        I'll troll with a tl:dr from my warfare professor: when technology advances and tactics get left behind, you have a bloodbath.

                                        [–]cumbert_cumbert 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        For some reason this reminded me of - and made me think you might like - Robert Newmans History of Oil.

                                        He talks about how we have been taught a bogus version of how WWI developed. Its also really interesting aside from that. One of the best rationales Ive seen as to why the US is in a constant state of warfare in and around the middle east.

                                        [–]helloavalanche 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Machine guns, man. Imagine coming from possibly never hearing a mechanical sound in your life, to seeing a man's face ripped off by a machine that is a couple hundred yards away. Plus all of the other sensory overload. It was the first time anyone had witnessed anything like that.

                                        [–]Goatblower111 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        As a history teacher myself it's nice to see someone so passionate about world war I, it's kind of a forgotten one. I studied the Korean War for my capstone for that very same purpose. Cheers man

                                        [–]thirdfounder 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        for what it's worth, as wonderful a description of technical, tactical and strategic elements that perverted the war into a meat grinder, there was more than just this. it's no exaggeration to say that they way we think about the world today was forged in the war, with the old conception being swept away, creating the post-modern period. this was an extremely traumatic experience, one which we - standing in the far side, equipped with the mentality the war gave us, cannot really comprehend except in shadow.

                                        I'd highly recommend Paul Fussell's "The Great War and Modern Memory", or Modris Eckstein's "Rites of Spring", for more context.

                                        [–]lurker-no-longer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Mr Wright, is that you? My highschool history teacher talked to us about WW1 exactly like that, he was a badass. You're going to make a fucking awesome teacher :) Mr Wright was my favourite.

                                        [–]H_E_Pennypacker 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        What's a sapper?

                                        [–]timythenerd 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

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                                        Sapping in this context is the process of digging a trench between your trench and the enemy's, in order to get closer to your enemy. A sapper is a soldier, usually of an engineer corps, who digs these trenches.

                                        More often than not the trenches were dug while under fire. Sometimes they were also dug underground.

                                        If you want more, hunt down The Great War on youtube. It's a 20-part series done by the BBC in the '60s and it covers the entire war.

                                        [–]bjorgein 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Essentially a engineer/demolition specialist I would think.

                                        [–]TheTT 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

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                                        German here. The Stab-in-the-Back myth ("Dolchstoßlegende") is completely and entirely a myth. The german army was, as a matter of fact, defeated in the fields. They might have inflicted a lot of casualties, even in the last days, but they lost. They lost because of the sheer number of people and equipment that Britain, France and later America would churn out - Germany was incapable of matching that.

                                        The german military were in denial about their impending loss, and when they realized what would happen, they decided that the damn Brits shouldn't get their perfectly fine boats. They ordered the navy to start a suicide attack on the British Fleet, causing the seaman to revolt. This started the November Revolution, and after some shit happens, Friedrich Ebert declares himself Chancellor. The military broke the news about their impending doom to him, and he did the responsible thing and surrendered. The military were strictly conservative, though, and favored the old monarchy over the new democracy, and pulled a "We would totally have won this, those damn commie revolutionaries stabbed us in the back with their surrender stuff". This was one of the things that destabilized the Weimar Republic so much, and was one of the major battlecries of the monarchist opposition to the new system. They ultimately turned fascist, and that didn't go so well...

                                        TL;DR You seriously think Hitler was right?

                                        [–]gruntle 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                        sigh Yet another history person whose entire idea of WWI is the Western front. Not a thing about the war in the East, which was frankly more important. And Germany didn't win? Look up the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. If you were a soldier of the East and you won the war and then your country suddenly surrendered, you'd feel stabbed in the back too.

                                        [–]recreational 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Well, I can understand reading it that way, but keep in mind that I was responding to a question about shellshock, and most shellshock cases were on the Western Front. Much was simplified for the sake of necessity.

                                        Also your second point is completely wrong. In WWII, absolutely the Eastern theater was much more important, but in WWI the Western front is where the major powers poured the best of their youth and the majority of their wealth. The Eastern front was important, but eventually Russian incompetence and Germany's lack of manpower neutralized each other. Yes, Germany was able to nominally gain huge amounts of territory, but it couldn't occupy and administer those effectively, making them more a loss than a gain. Brest was mere madness.

                                        [–]ptveite 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Wow, reading through this a HUGE part of it is true about the civil war as well - rifling made it easy to mow down oncoming charges, but the war was still one that saw generals on both sides regularly losing massive numbers in infantry charges.

                                        [–]mrpotatopancreas 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        For some more information on the subject, Tardi's piece "It Was The War Of The Trenches" is a great graphic novel exploring the horrors of WW1, and very accurate, too. http://classic.tcj.com/international/it-was-the-war-of-the-trenches/

                                        [–]Sarex 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

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                                        That was the west front, what about the east one. The most famous battles of ww1 took place there and they weren't trench warfare, and the scariest thing there was disease not battle it self. (Typhus took more lives then bullets)

                                        [–]replayzero 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        I think you'll be a great teacher.

                                        [–]idiomorph 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I'm very thankful you've taken the time to write this. WWI is something I've been deeply fascinated by for a long time, all the more so by the fact that good information on the subject is fairly elusive compared to the masses of volumes on WWII. I'm definitely going to check out that book!

                                        [–]Keisaku 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

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                                        I woke up and this is the first thing I read. Thank you. Quite illuminating. I've been a biplane buff and this carried into WW1 and its very basic style of fighting.

                                        All wars should be brought back to this so the horror never subsides.

                                        [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        Another fantastic source is listening to the "Hardcore History" podcast. I really need to get back to listening to those, they are fantastic.

                                        [–]vulture47 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Almost a hundred years later people are still getting killed by shells and mortars from WW1. In flanders fields , farmers are still digging up tons of unexploded artillery each year and every now and then that goes horribly wrong...

                                        [–]dwunderley 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                        Wonderful read, thank you for that.

                                        [–]LastDawnOfMan 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        The psychological pressure, as recreational explains so well, makes it much more understandable how soldiers would go "fey" on the front lines. Exhausted from sitting waiting for random death, occasionally a single soldier would just jump up over the trench and run at the enemy until he was gunned down.

                                        It is so irritating to read how, when the Americans joined the war, they were given all kinds of advice from the French and English on how to deal with this new kind of war, and all the American generals just laughed at them, pretty much called them cowards, and went on and slaughtered a bunch of their own men, repeatedly, until finally it dimly penetrated that this was a new kind of war.

                                        Also interesting to realize that the British invented what would later be called blitzkrieg tactics at the end of WWI, which gave them noticeably successful assaults, but that knowledge was seemingly discarded by the British once the war ended.

                                        [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        The point is, you have this dynamic where the technology of the time says, "Sit and defend," and the generals say, "Go out and charge!" And the shocking thing is how long it takes the military leadership, especially of the Entente, to adapt; and how frequently they relapse.

                                        This is what makes nuclear weapons so scary to me. Obviously the nature of the weapons says to not use them, but there may be leaders who haven't fully realized that and feel the need to still attack.

                                        [–]MrSnare 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Wow

                                        [–]Boondock-Saint 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        No one wins in war.

                                        With that being said, this is probably the most accurate read of WWI I've seen yet, and you take it to a level deeper than most, a personal one. Thank you sir.

                                        Also, as a history major/etc, have you ever read "The Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brien, and his other books?

                                        [–]Banzai51 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        The modern anti-war movement was born out of WWI. WWI and the causes leading up to it seem so foriegn to us because the general attitude towards war as a profession and means to an end were so different then. You still needed (in many places in Europe) to have ties to nobility to hold positions of power, even if it was "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" under the table sorts of vetting. Still had the old style political thinking (or a throwback to that thinking because of stuff like Communism) of nation building by conquest.

                                        [–]Emperor_Zar 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Thank you for knowledge! Very interesting read!

                                        [–]SDcowboy82 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Add to that most boys had to choose whether to join the army at 18 or be hung at home, and that boys as young as 15 and 16 were being publicly shammed for not enlisting, and you have a situation where one is forced into hell with no chance for escape

                                        [–]Grytpype-Thynne 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Great post. Niall Ferguson's, "The Pity of War" is a dense, but interesting read. It takes the stance that the British point of view, prior to the war, had a greater contribution to the inevitability of the conflict than previously thought.

                                        [–]Shorvok 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

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                                        I always thought that despite the US's light involvement in the war, it really was quite influential while it was there for that final push.

                                        There had been a lot of pushed back under Wilson not to bolster the military and prepare for a war, just to ride it out, so when we did end up entering the war no one was ready for it.

                                        What this led to was that where the US troops did see action there weren't as predictable as the French and British troops and it dumbfounded the Germans, but in reality the Americans really just had no idea what they were doing.

                                        [–]Banzai51 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        It only looked like they had no idea what they were doing by the French, Brittish, and Germans. Pershing and his staff knew what they were doing, and certainly wanted to avoid the static pitfalls the other combatents ran into during the war. It's why the American command was fanatical about commanding it's own rather than handing troops off to French or Brittish commanders. That angered lots of people, who in turn went on to write lots of anti-American sentiment in an attempt to downplay the role of Americans in the war. Americans brought a fresh army to the fray that was dead set on avoiding many of the mistakes of the war (and making fresh mistakes of their own, of course) that helped tip the scales.

                                        [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Didn't the Americans have an influence on the war by just being available in large quantities? I understood the spring offensive by the Germans was a huge push to try to end the war before the Americans arrived in large numbers.

                                        [–]SkittishKittay 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I read this entire post, well-written and exceedingly thoughtful as it was, in Jimmy Carr's posh British accent. It was quite a thing.

                                        [–]ArthurEvans 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        You'll make a great history teacher! Good luck on that.

                                        [–]AmarrHardin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Good summation. Done a lot of reading on WW1 battles and visited the Vimy Ridge memorial which was really quite moving.

                                        It is difficult to fathom just how terrible WW1 was and sadly I think many people do not have an appreciation of just how bad it was - because if they did there would not be so many 'hawks' around...

                                        People then were 'tougher'. Many worked in hard physically demanding jobs and were used to a hard life with few comforts and of course they were 'encouraged' to go over the top for fear of being shot by their own military police...

                                        I am not sure if people brought up with the comforts of modern life would have the fortitude or resilience to do what those men did...

                                        I am not sure

                                        [–]markevens 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Thank you for the book recommendation! I've been looking for a good book on WWI.

                                        Since you are deep into history, I'll tell you two books I'm trying to find in the hopes that you can give me a good recommendation.

                                        One is an unbiased history of modern Israel (starting to see why I'm having a hard time finding these?)

                                        The other is a "Rise and Fall" type book for the Ottoman Empire.

                                        [–]fractaloverlap 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        The novel "The General" by C.S. Forester also does a great job of explaining the mindset of the commanding generals of the time, and why some of those seemngly absurd decisons could be made. (His Hornblower series are incidentally my favorite naval fiction)

                                        [–]iPettedASeal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        I like the way you write. Clear and without big words. Thank you.

                                        [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        Have you watched Blackadder Goes Forth?

                                        [–]geierseier 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        ...and all the time reading your absolutely great and feelable Post Im playing Iron Maidens 'Paschendale' in my head.

                                        [–]Maxxover 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I've just read "A world Undone" and I second your recommendation. One thing you left out of your excellent analysis was that the national leaders on all sides were mainly inbred, syphilitic, batshit-insane autocrats who could do whatever the fuck they wanted no matter the cost in men and treasure.

                                        [–]macguffing 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        You should watch a movie called The King of Hearts. It illustrates the point you're making rather well.

                                        [–]stormwaltz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Paschendale by Iron Maiden - a song about the Battle of Passchendaele - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele

                                        Song video: http://youtu.be/c20-fm_WNew

                                        Lyrics:

                                        In a foreign field, he lay Lonely soldier, unknown grave On his dying words, he prays Tell the world of Paschendale

                                        Relive all that he's been through Last communion of his soul Rust your bullets with his tears Let me tell you 'bout his years

                                        Laying low in a blood filled trench Killing time 'til my very own death On my face I can feel the falling rain Never see my friends again

                                        In the smoke, in the mud and lead Smell of fear and the feeling of dread Soon be time to go over the wall Rapid fire and the end of us all

                                        Whistles, shouts and more gun fire Lifeless bodies hang on barbwire Battlefield nothing but a bloody tomb Be reunited with my dead friends soon

                                        Many soldiers eighteen years Drown in mud, no more tears Surely a war no one can win Killing time about to begin

                                        Home, far away From the war, a chance to live again Home, far away But the war, no chance to live again

                                        The bodies of ours and our foes The sea of death it overflows In no man's land, God only knows Into jaws of death, we go

                                        Crucified as if on a cross Allied troops, they mourn their loss German war propaganda machine [- From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/i/iron-maiden-lyrics/paschendale-lyrics.html -] Such before has never been seen

                                        Swear I heard the angels cry Pray to god no more may die So that people know the truth Tell the tale of Paschendale

                                        Cruelty has a human heart Everyman does play his part Terror of the men, we kill The human heart is hungry still

                                        I stand my ground for the very last time Gun is ready as I stand in line Nervous wait for the whistle to blow Rush of blood and over, we go

                                        Blood is falling like the rain Its crimson cloak unveils again The sound of guns can't hide their shame And so we die in Paschendale

                                        Dodging shrapnel and barbwire Running straight at cannon fire Running blind as I hold my breath Say a prayer symphony of death

                                        As we charge the enemy lines A burst of fire and we go down I choke a cry but no one hears Feel the blood go down my throat

                                        Home, far away From the war, a chance to live again Home, far away But the war, no chance to live again

                                        Home, far away From the war, a chance to live again Home, far away But the war, no chance to live again

                                        See my spirit on the wind Across the lines beyond the hill Friend and foe will meet again Those who died at Paschendale

                                        [–]fun_young_man 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Plus as the war was winding down it was to be followed by a massive flu outbreak that killed even more people than the war did, and which affected the same age group 20-40yr olds.

                                        [–]c_vic 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                        Props for studying history. We need all the history teachers we can get.

                                        [–]Gankstar 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                        Oh history lecturer... how I loathed you as a teen, how I enjoy you now.

                                        [–]FlimFlamStan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I've wondered if conditions like this go a long way in explaining how Seargeant York was able to simultaneously capture 132 German soldiers . The soldiers just wanted the hell out.

                                        [–]anacrolix 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        If you want to know how nations could sustain this unbelievably long and draining war, take a look at the changes that occurred banking structure immediately prior, and during WW1 for major European nations and the USA.

                                        For the most part, wars in prior decades were shorter and far more unpopular.

                                        There are two ways to fight a war: Invent capital, or control production.

                                        [–]deargodimbored 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I'd also add the unbelievable newness of it. These were people who did not grow up, with images of tanks, planes, long range accurate artillery, machine guns. It must have all been terribly surreal. All the technological that didn't really fit into the average soldier's mental framework, all of sudden there and out to kill them.

                                        By WWII people know machine guns, and aerial bombs are part of war, they deal with newer, but still technology that isn't the same leap. I'd compare it to Vietnam, where you put people in a landscape alien to them, in a war that is very unlike their mental concept of what warfare is going into it (dense jungles, guerrela tactics, booby traps, not knowing who they enemy is exactly), it's very hard to mentally brace yourself for such a thing.

                                        [–]Otzlowe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I'm currently studying to become an artist, but it's shit like this that makes me wonder if I'm wrong.

                                        I can sit on the internet and absolutely eat up hours of time with no effort at all, just reading about history and I absolutely love it.

                                        [–]Deagle_Shitter 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                        When I heard the Polish used cavalry in WWII, I just shook my head.

                                        [–]white114 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        I imagine the Minions in League of Legends feel very similar to the points brought up in this comment

                                        [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Isn't that kind of the same reason why the American Civil War was so brutal? The tactics being used were better suited for older weapons. But the weapons that were being introduced onto the battlefield were much more powerful and so the death tolls were much higher.

                                        [–]goodknee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        thanks for the great read, good luck being a history teacher! that used to be my plan, and it can still be a great one...really rewarding, benefits..it could be nice!

                                        [–]hexag1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        http://as.reddit.com/r/nosleep/comments/ospnm/a_horrifying_detail_from_the_ww_i_battle_of/

                                        [–]MyIdwasTaken 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        Some of the tactics that were thought up are amazing. The Canadians taking Vimy Ridge after both the French and British failed to was a huge feat.

                                        [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                        You really copped out on the stab in the back explanation...

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