全 44 件のコメント

[–]conativejj 21ポイント22ポイント  (7子コメント)

Apparently the left doesn't like their ideology compared to slavery. Well, what else would you call a system that doesn't encourage you to pull yourself up out of poverty and improve your station in life for yourself and your family, but rather encourages you to remain in poverty and depend on government handouts via transfer payments, entitlements, and other welfare in kind benefits?

Let us assume that this sort of system is just and moral and that there is nothing wrong with it, nor nothing wrong with an individual choosing to remain in this sort of cycle of dependence and poverty. If more and more people accede to that mentality and give up working in favor of turning to government programs and benefits, since it is a just and moral position to maintain and shouldn't be discouraged, what will eventually happen to society when the vast majority adopts that viewpoint and becomes wards of the state in this manner?

In other words, from where or what source do you believe that the government receives it's resources to pay for these benefits, WIK payments, or entitlements? Will we simply have to rely on the Federal Reserve printing more money and selling more government debt to foreign nations and domestic banks to prop the system up? How long do you anticipate that sort of system can be maintained?

To put it another way, lets assume the ultimate outcome is 310 million Americans living below the government defined poverty level because it's easier to live via government benefits and payments rather than put in the effort to work and try to improve your lot in life - How long can a system such as that be perpetuated by the domestic/global economy?

If you disagree that this is the ultimate goal of this mentality, then please, point out what sort of incentives the left has included in such programs to encourage individuals extracting themselves from poverty and government dependance. NOTE: The EITC was included in the tax system with the encouragement of folks on the right, not the left.

[–]HatSimulatorOfficial 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

What makes you think someone getting paid 4 times what you do is going to give up their position for you? lol Theres a lot of people 50+ who work at walmart and fast food along with all the other crap jobs out there. Huge factories for 13 hours a day no overtime pay who cant move up the corporate ladder. Theres a lot of people who do slave type work for slave type wages and want a change. A lot of people cant up and leave their state to go somewhere else safety leaving their family and friends all behind for money. I know people who work those 13 hour a day factory jobs and live in 500 dollar a month rented apartments with another person and still cant afford to live without some type of help. Like as it turns out people have different lives from each other. Whoa.

And since i dont feel like waiting 5 minutes a reply to /u/existentialadvisor Theres blind and deaf, and people who actually cant walk along with a multitude of other things that cause disabilities. Obesity however shouldn't count as a disability but sadly that does. I am a moderately fit white guy who cant walk and i get no money from anyone else and sell artwork and random services from my computer for little to no money and live with my parents which im lucky enough to have and a lot of others dont.

[–]existentialadvisor 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's good for you that you can make money even though you can't walk. But there are blind people who require expensive assistance to get around the world and I don't think we should ignore them. A governmental system in place that can support them until they support themselves seems right to me. On the other hand, my SO mothers bf on the other hand is a completely physically functional adult male, who works out, and cleans up the house, but refuses to work and lives off SSI. My friend Glen who is disabled due to a genetic disease and wheelchair bound is in a govenrmental program that will help him gain skills and get a job for people in wheelchairs. There in lies the difference.

[–]HatSimulatorOfficial 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

See, I tried to apply for disability and I didnt get it. I dont udnerstand how people can be fully able to work and somehow get away with not forever.

[–]existentialadvisor 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a good question. I don't know how to go about welfare fraud so me and my SO assumption is that he is getting away with it because he is a recovering addict of ten years.

[–]HatSimulatorOfficial 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Makes sense. It honestly pisses me off since i cant work a normal job and most of plans were fucked over by my foot i see some perfectly bodied person walking around fine doing nothing and has more. :/ Oh well I however do support people that work min wage jobs and have to use welfare to live or people who simply cant do anything and need it to live.

[–]existentialadvisor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you overestimate the welfare that people who work recieve. If you are working, most welfare programs are not applicable, and if you own a car or property then nearly all of said programs are not applicable or very miniscule.

[–]Emelelehh -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Apparently the left doesn't like their ideology compared to slavery. Well, what else would you call a system that doesn't encourage you to pull yourself up out of poverty and improve your station in life for yourself and your family, but rather encourages you to remain in poverty and depend on government handouts via transfer payments, entitlements, and other welfare in kind benefits?

That's strange considering there are wayyyy more poor people per capita in the US than in the Scandinavian countries.

[–]existentialadvisor 11ポイント12ポイント  (18子コメント)

Welfare programs create a system of learned dependence on the population. Paralyzed, elderly, sick? You deserve my support. Otherwise, get out and look for a job of some type.

[–]ACuddlyFox 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm torn on that. On one hand, yeah I'm totally okay with helping them. But on the other, I think it's important for the emphasis on being to help them transition into being productive members of society. Or at the very least, get some small level of work out of them in return for the money. But if we can't find a way to do that for them, then yeah just support them.

[–]slink6 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll dare you to speak about actually being Christ like!

[–]Moon_Whaler 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Except that since the 70s wages have decreased and we have a labor surplus that guarantees a certain level of unemployment, and with labor automation unemployment will only increase.

But right, these people are just lazy bums.

[–]existentialadvisor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have worked in the mental health industry and have had enough experiences to know that the welfare system has its flaws and that many people flat out refuse work for one reason or the other.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Government is their God.

[–]spectre78 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

I think whoever made this poster has already forgotten what Occupy was about. The movement started in response to the fact that no one of consequence was called to account for the financial crisis of 2007-08. From wikipedia: "a peaceful occupation of Wall Street to protest corporate influence on democracy, the lack of legal consequences for those who brought about the global crisis of monetary insolvency, and an increasing disparity in wealth."

To turn around and imply that people looking for more economic balance and accountability in the financial sector are in fact lazy and looking for handouts is sad. The protest had a lot to do with the fact that since no one was prosecuted for even some of the more blatant crimes, that huge shift of money away from the lower and middle class to the 1% was basically sanctioned.

For conservatives to laugh and crow at people seeking to restore balance to the national economy is pretty embarrassing. If anyone should be interested in restoring the balance that has wildly shifted in the last 30 years, it should be conservatives.

The richest 1 percent in the United States now own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. That's robber baron territory. And that number is only getting more lopsided. If you can read through the smoke of the Obama admin's unemployment numbers, you'll see that a massive number of people are either out of work entirely, or don't have a steady 40 hours a week. That should scare you, because a huge number of people who can't find work and a class of the super rich consolidating power and money is not a recipe for a free and open society. It's the beginnings of something very dangerous.

[–]djereConservative 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm no fan of the permanently entrenched political class suckling at the taxpayers' teat to carve out exemptions for their deep-pocketed friends in various industries either, friend.

But if I work harder jobs, longer hours, earn advanced degrees, and take bigger risks that reap bigger rewards than you do, do I not deserve the wealth I obtain? Have I obtained it illegally or immorally, just because I have more of it than 90% of my friends and neighbors?

You talk about the 1 percent owning more wealth than the bottom 90 as if this is in some way illegal or immoral.

Do you think things would be better if they didn't own it? Who then? The bottom 1%? Is that who should be running things?

And who's to say the bottom 90% have it all that bad? The poor have it better in America that practically anywhere else on the globe at any time in human history. Just because someone else has it better doesn't mean you don't have it good.

The government ought not to be in the business of insulating people from the consequences of their own stupidity.

  • If you get pregnant and can't afford to pay for daycare or groceries, why should everybody else pitch in to bail you out? You should be the burden of the local charity or your family.

  • If you deceitfully obtain a mortgage to buy a house you know you can't afford, why should you get to stay there? You should learn how to manage your money better. And why should the mortgage company be bailed out either? They were complicit, and reaped tons of money.

  • If you make shitbox cars nobody wants to buy (I'm looking at you, GM), why should the taxpayers bail you out at the expense of the bondholders and to the benefit of the labor unions?

[–]slink6 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would never begrudge someone the fruits of their honest labor. Honest labor and hard work is not what we are talking about when we are talking about the bankers of the financial crises. They used their money to buy our government and change the rules in their favor to make more money off the middle and lower class, and in some cases outright broke the law, and yet where are those responsible? Enjoying the ill begotten fruits of their thievery while the very people they stole from are brainwashed into defending them and yet have the audacity to claim themselves as conservatives.

Where is all the don't tread on me, liberty or death talk when it comes to filthy business men buying and selling your government and changing the rules to steal your tax dollars to pad their profits?

Do you want to know what happened to "M'erica"? It wasn't Obama or Bush, they were empty suits just reading the prompters doing as they were told. America is in the shape we are in now because She was put on the auction block. Short term profits are exalted above long term prosperity

Don't like Taxes? If so much of them weren't going right into their pockets the government could do much more with less, and yet so many "conservatives" seem to be wall street apologists. It's so backwards it's laughable.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

restore balance

You mean to use the power of the State to force social and economic redistribution.

Are your jackboots polished?

[–]spectre78 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

If all the money and power are in the hands of the rich (which is what is happening now), I don't see how you think that would be any different.

If you have a fairly unlimited budget (say a few billion), you can easily buy your way into the legislative process (by donating to politicians and controlling their votes) and pass any law that you want, provided that the public is not vehemently opposed to it. Even if they are, you just need a few layers of legal obfuscation and you have carte blanche.

[–]conativejj 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

If all the money and power are in the hands of the rich (which is what is happening now), I don't see how you think that would be any different.

However, if we put all the money and power in the hands of our political leaders (also rich by and large) this will somehow resolve the issues raised? That's the issue a lot of us have on the right with this idea that if we just give the federal government more power and control over the political process that it will somehow resolve issues like income inequality, racism/bias, or institutional poverty. All while failing to realize that:

  1. We the People have very little input in our political process
  2. The people in charge of our legislative, executive, and judiciary branches are by and large also rich elites, so giving them more power/control seems counter-intuitive

I get calling for reform, trust me, I would love governmental reform too. I just don't think you stop the coyotes from eating your chickens by putting them into the hen house. You would be wiser to come up with better ways to prevent the coyotes from getting on your farm to begin with.

The issue with the left is they want to give the very people who control and benefit from the system more power and control over more and more aspects of that system and our daily lives without considering what incentive do those in power have to reduce their influence in that system especially once you give them more power and control?

[–]spectre78 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be clear, I never suggested that Occupy's strategy was sound, or that I agreed with it. I simply pointed out that the movement had a valid reason for beginning, and that the issues raised by it have not been addressed. In fact, they're getting worse.

I don't have a solution yet, but I think if we could get past the schoolyard US vs. THEM silliness that I see in OP's post, we might be able to put our heads together and find a path that leaves us with a future, and not as servants to the super rich or the government.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Define "rich."

[–]spectre78 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

wealth than the bottom 90 percent

On average, about $1M in net worth (source: http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/27/news/economy/top-1/).

[–]turnipsoup 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seriously; this sub is like the r/atheism of politics. So much 'herp derp, look at the stupid lefties'.

[–]MacheteSanta 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Until the 1% get sick of the BS and leave.

Like in Greece

[–]djereConservative -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Who is John Galt?

[–]juden-shikker -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

hahaha that's just silly libertarian porn lol that would never happen stupid Ayn Rand fan boy and if it did we could just use the government to compel them to give up their wealth. duh.

[–]rudieboy -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think we should have a one world corporation to rule our lives and truly be free people.