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[–]lughnasadhOnwards & Upwards 560ポイント561ポイント  (708子コメント)

That, combined with groups and politicians working towards a $15 per hour minimum wage, has pushed Target to announce that within two years they will have a “concept store” open that will include robots instead of associates.

I think we have to accept the logic of 21st century capitalism is that it will constantly lower costs by adopting automation & a race to the bottom between the general working population & robots for less & less income is a road to nowhere.

I'm not sure minimum wage & Unions is the way to go here; Basic Income is the obvious answer & i'm sure it will happen eventually.

I think the more conservative parts of the population will be hanging on to the belief that the old model just needs more fixing to work right & will be refusing to countenance that kind of change for some time yet.

It will probably be the knock-on economic chaos (debt/mortgage defaults - consequent bank insolvencies, etc)of 10's of millions economically displaced by autonomous cars/ robots in the early 2020's before they are persuaded all this is really happening & there is no going back to the olden days that they think are still here now.

[–]ReallyLateToTheGame 225ポイント226ポイント  (325子コメント)

Automation and life are at odds when the means to wage gathering is removed by automation. "They are taking our jobs?" Is what I hear from students regularly when it's discussed in colleges. Everyday people have no idea what's coming, and it's coming faster and faster each year. When automation removes drivers from the equation, a large portion of society is fucked without Basic Income.

[–]sprawn 228ポイント229ポイント  (214子コメント)

Autonomous transport will not only rid us of delivery drivers and truck drivers (long haul trucking could honestly be eliminated within a year, if interstate shippers have their own on and off ramps to the existing highways...). Autonomous transport will get rid of all sorts of retail business for goods that do not need to be inspected prior to purchase. Warehouse to doorstep without human intervention.

Basic Income is a necessity. Putting people out of work is the entire point of the Industrial Revolution.

[–]altrdgenetics 122ポイント123ポイント  (72子コメント)

I can't wait to see the cross country trucks be autonomous... and they all stay in the right lane.

[–]xRyuuji7 72ポイント73ポイント  (63子コメント)

HAH! That would be too weird. Then again, what will I care? I'll be wearing my VR Headset from within my self-driven more-of-a-lounge-then-a-car car.

[–]Sevlins 16ポイント17ポイント  (58子コメント)

One thing people hype up about autonomous cars is the lounge concept.

You'll still need seat belts, it's not going to be significantly more comfortable in that sense.

[–]barpredator [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

At first you'll need them. But in a few decades when a huge portion of the vehicles on the road are autonomous, we'll view seatbelts like life vests on a boat. They'll probably exist, but few will wear them. I predict accident rates will begin to approach zero and people just won't see the need.

[–]ApiKnight [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Exactly right. And don't forget that we'll keep building even safer cars.

[–]bagofantelopes [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Until some cyber terrorists hack into whatever is controlling the cars, and everything goes haywire, and tens of thousands of people meet a grisly end across the world's highways in a manner of minutes. Highly unlikely? Oh yes. But not impossible I'd wager...

[–]dzt [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

Given the number of people driving every day... accident rates are already pretty close to zero.

[–]barpredator [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

1.3M die in car accidents every year. We should see that number plummet, and when people stop fearing accidents they stop taking precautions. It's just human nature.

[–]GimmeDatSolar 19ポイント20ポイント  (27子コメント)

ever been on first class sinagpre airlines? they have seat belts

[–]Sevlins 23ポイント24ポイント  (26子コメント)

And I bet you luxury BMW cars are pretty fantastically comfortable too.

95% of the people posting about this don't own a BMW now, and won't when they're fully self driving either.

[–]Daxx22 [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Ideally, once fully autonomous vehicles exist the average person will have no need to even own a car. Just fleets of autonomous taxis on call 24/7. After all why own a self driving car that you drive (probably on average) an hour day, when you could have that same car servicing 20+ people in a day? You'd see the number of necessary vehicles cut by several magnitudes.

[–]Whales96 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Because that definitely motivates people into riding buses more. People don't like being in a vehicle that smells like shit and definitely don't like sharing a vehicle with someone who may smell like shit.

[–]OctilleryLOL [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is a long way away, though. This is an infrastructure overhaul equivalent to replacing horse-drawn vehicles to cars. Even at the accelerated rate of information transfer in the 21st century, physical implementation is still a challenge.

[–]blood-thunder 25ポイント26ポイント  (4子コメント)

Truck drivers are mad about their way of life being threatened. I'm mad about my actual life being threatened as they pass in the left lane at .2 mph faster than the truck on the right, and everyone starts foaming at the mouth to pass each other.

[–]chapterpt [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

They have often have speed limiters. Have you ever been on a greyhound bus and felt it constantly excelerate and decelerate on the highway? That's a type of speed limiter in action, as soon as the bus speed passes the upper threshold the limiter kicks in and the bus' acceleration is cut until the speed drops below the uooer limit.

Big rigs often run the same device either by state or provincial law, or by company requirement - both to save fuel and avoid the fines/penalties/dangers of a driver behind schedule.

[–]zzyul [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The reason trucks are governed is due to insurance costs. Big discounts for every mph under 70.

[–]blood-thunder [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

True, but that doesn't really address my whining point. There are laws about slower traffic keeping right that no don't get obeyed or enforced. Having the only two lanes on a road blocked by trucks going pretty much the same speed shouldn't happen all the time, but it does.

[–]theantagonists [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Per law I think people should have to ride in a truck for one day including a session through the closest rush hour to your house. Then people might understand that it is ten times more frustrating for a truck having to deal with drivers. You know when your are hauling 80,000lbs in the right lane at 65mph and a car cuts across your lane so they don't miss their exit and slams on the brakes.

[–]burning_sandwich [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

Basic Income is just the right thing to do, and I think will also become increasingly necessary.

There is absolutely no technological reason everyone on this planet should not have access to basic housing, food/water, and medical care at minimum at all times. No one should ever worry about going homeless and starving in a gutter somewhere.

[–]sprawn [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Could not agree more. People think of it as charity... but really, basic income should be viewed as unrecognized inheritance. Every improvement in every economic system, factory, production technique, etc... is the result of the workers in that system innovating. And most of these innovations, right up to the present, are completely unrecognized intellectual property for which the innovators are unrecognized. The efficiencies created by these innovations generally funnel the profit to the ownership class...

Basically, at some point in the past someone in your family (and likely many, many someones) came up with innovations that, on their own, were worth next to nothing, but when combined with other unrecognized efficiencies, and multiplied over decades or centuries, is worth potentially BILLIONS. But they weren't in a position to "own" their intellectual property, so the value flowed to the thieves and parasites.

[–]2rio2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is an excellent way to frame it. Won't convince everyone, but it's a good start to pointing out that innovation and labor have lead to the current system where you don't need to work break breaking jobs for a basic standard of living. Now anything you want to do and start up to gain more than that and potentially become rich is entirely up t you.

[–]VT-Sensational [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

is the result of the workers in that system innovating

Workers being the innovators? No, that is not historically accurate.

Workers have largely been illiterate tools, unable to create or propagate any invention or knowledge at all beyond maintaining what they know and passing it on to their successors. Organizations like guilds and the consumers and keepers of knowledge (the learned, be it priests, monks, scholars) have been the ones to innovate and spread innovation. Tradesmen have innovated, but that was before ownership in the form that you seem to be referring to actually existed. Intellectual property? That's a new concept. The vast majority of "workers" have been peasants all the way up until the 1800s.

Your bullshit anti-capitalist propaganda is simply wrong.

[–]vinegarstrokes1 45ポイント46ポイント  (65子コメント)

I just dont see it happening. Ive been in logistics for about 15 years now, and the general consensus is that even if the trucks drive themselves there will need to be someone in the cab for: possible failure and safety thereof, filling up on fuel, keeping the truck and trailer within dot regulations regarding lighting mud flaps etc, and the biggest one talking to and getting into the receiving companies yard and dock. Most companies dont ship things to themselves, your shipping to customers, third party logistics providers etc., how is the driverless truck going to hand me the paperwork for signature, assure that its signed corrctly, cut the seal off (and stupid ass bolt if its from mexico, many are), drop the trailer, and do it where i tell it to i.e. three deep off the fence, or a specific dock door. If it is a live unload how do i tell it it is safe to move, why should it trust me? There flat out has to be someone there for 95% of loads you see on the road. A good chunk of what you see is local too, direct store deliveries (DSD), this is where 80% of what you see in your grocery store comes from. How does the driverless cab manually correct an invoice because a case was shorted, even if it were possible does he just take the receivers word for it? Dont take my rant wrong, i love the tech, i hate driving to work an hour each way, but i really dont feel it will ever take away the jobs.

[–]Ginfly 42ポイント43ポイント  (5子コメント)

The majority of of your concerns can be handled by someone on location, with the trucks doing the driving between locations.

Some of your concerns will need to have method, policy, or legal updates to meet the needs of autonomous trucking (signatures, security seals, delivery corrections).

The rest will be figured out in time.

Some recipients won't be able to accept fully autonomous trucks right away, but it will adjust with market pressure eventually.

[–]Iamjacknow [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Yeah it will happen...but the timeline is realistically 10-15 years. Unfortunately magic on and off ramps wont revolutionize an entire industry in 12 months

[–]networknewjack [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Computers can absolutely handle paper work. It's the majority of what they do in a business environment.

[–]ninja_snowman1 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

You're describing the complex parts that humans will still be involved in at the beginning. Eventually the paperwork part will all be computerized, and honestly sounds pretty standard.

Also, we aren't going to go from human drivers to just machines overnight. First we'll have self driving trucks with drivers watching. Then we'll have self driving trucks with drivers sleeping as they drive, and jumping in when they arrive. Then we'll have them drive by themselves (with no human in them), and a human will get on to drive them the last few miles. I picture stations at the exits off of highways with people getting into the trucks, and driving them the last few miles to their destination, and taking care of docking, etc. Eventually parts of that will be automated too.

Look at where computers are today compared to 25 years ago. We have stuff that would be called magic back then (handheld, extremely thin devices, hundreds of gigabytes in a postage stamp, etc). It's not crazy to think we'll be in a similar position in another 25 years.

[–]jiggy68 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

I see the trucks being autonomous while driving. It could stop at a gas station where someone would be on hand to fuel it. Once it reaches its destination a dock worker takes control, brings the truck to the correct dock and coordinates the unloading/loading. I think at the beginning of automated trucks there would have to be a person in the cab but within 10-15 years of their introduction it won't be necessary.

[–]pneuma8828 23ポイント24ポイント  (6子コメント)

but i really dont feel it will ever take away the jobs.

You lack imagination.

[–]shuggnog [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Well, not necessarily... I think they meant all the jobs. These machines are going to need technicians, mechanics, and workers to ensure they are safe and reliable. But still, we're looking at a drastic loss of many jobs.

[–]C0rdt [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

Why would every truck need a person to fuel it? Until about 10-15 years ago nobody fuelled their own vehicles.....

[–]Schnort [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Depends on where you live. I've never had somebody fuel my vehicle, and I'm in my mid 40s. On the other hand, I think New Jersey still has regulations that require gas station attendants.

[–]CaptaiinCrunch [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Those jobs exist in exactly two places in the U.S: Jersey and Oregon. They exist only because of the politicians, they're about as useful as an elevator operator.

[–]redditvlli [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There's still states where nobody fuels their own vehicles.

[–]Myrdok [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

What? I'm almost 30...I've lived in three different states and visited countless more. I've been to exactly one gas station in my life that had an attendant that would pump for you and it doesn't even do that anymore, nor have I heard any stories about not pumping your own gas from anyone but my grandparents. Your estimate is off by at least 20 years. The majority of people were definitely fueling their own vehicles between 2000-2005.

[–]illuminous 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sorry, but, I'm fairly certain we have the technology to remotely control and/or automate everything you brought up in this list...

[–]shuggnog [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Language for driverless trucks and electronic roads has been introduced in the DRIVE Act (highway bill), fyi... various groups are fighting it tooth and nail.

[–]James_Locke [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If truck drivers were to become more mechanics, I think the world would be a better place.

[–]JebusRicecakes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

you would certainly need some sort of creature capable of some bit of logical and critical thinking but who's saying it needs to be human?

it starts with the truck driving itself, truckers are now obsolete and all the remaining human functions could be done by lower skill or unskilled workers for (i assume) less, and eventually we figure out piece by piece how to automate that as well.

it may not even be anytime soon, but eventually, unless we hit a technological brick wall, there's really no saying what can or can't be done by these robots so only time will tell i suppose :)

EDIT: robots

[–]IHateMyHandle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I imagine a new business where we still have short distance truckers bring trailers to a yard where company A hooks it up to an automatic driver. Then it drives cross country to another base owned by company A.

Company A then hires a short distance truck driver to deliver it to the final destination.

Kind of like train yards of today. You hire a company to do the bulk travel for cheap, and just go from terminal to customer with a person.

Also, I think truck stops would offer a fill up service or perhaps automatic truck stops where people do all the normal safety checks a person does

[–]OneOfDozens 15ポイント16ポイント  (13子コメント)

Don't forget taxis

[–]impediment 38ポイント39ポイント  (12子コメント)

Taxis are already fucked because of Uber and Lyft. They will have been replaced before autonomous cars hit. I'm sure Uber will be on the forefront of autonomous taxis. Have you seen Google's future plans for autonomous cars? No charge to take a ride anywhere. Just call the car, get in, and it takes you there. Of course it will be filled with ads and other ways to pay the bills, but honestly it sounds great to me.

[–]Zahn1138 24ポイント25ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yeah but Uber and Lyft drivers still have jobs. Autonomous cars will remove those jobs too, so u/OneOfDozens ' point still stands.

[–]impediment 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

Absolutely. I have no idea where I was going with my comment honestly.

[–]jacksalssome 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Where you going with: Uber is buying tesla automated cars.

[–]xRyuuji7 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wasn't Google in talks with Uber for a service that would let their self-driving cars be summoned from an app earlier this year?

[–]Daxx22 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yep. It will happen, just a matter of when. I believe the technology if not already there will be here very soon (less then 5 years) but we won't see universal use for much longer due to legislation and good old ludditism.

[–]km3k [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

we won't see universal use for much longer due to legislation and good old ludditism

And weather. Self-driving cars are still terrible in bad weather like snow.

[–]OneOfDozens 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I was certainly including those along with taxis

[–]TheAddiction2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Uber has already promised to purchase as many autonomous Teslas as Tesla can crank out. Taxis will be gone before self driving tech, but Uber won't have a long life with humans at the wheel.

[–]nathantr [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

James Altucher really opened my eyes to this concept when I read his book a few years ago.

We should be glad that we are going to a world where a person doesn't have to drive 40+ hours a week, away from family and friends, so they can have enough to eat and can make payments on a $300k truck.

Instead many are left angry and worse off because we refuse to accept a change to our current income system. Th mentality is "It will never happen to me, I'm going to be rich someday."

The book's TLDR is if you are a truck driver write a memoir of all your crazy trucker stories, because that will have monetary value in the automated world, unlike your ability to drive trucks. The rest of the book is a lot like that guy which the car in his garage on YouTube.

[–]delftblauw 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

I currently work in IT for one of the largest trucking companies. There is absolutely no desire to automate transport here. Improve the processes for documentation and rate quoting? Sure.

Trucking unions are insane. It will take a disruptive company start up to make changes in this industry. As it stands, trucking companies are happy to placate the unions and live on 3 percent margins.

[–]barpredator [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

It will take a disruptive company start up to make changes in this industry

And that's exactly what will happen, sooner rather than later. For a perfect analog look at taxi companies. No way would they ever automate on their own. Then Uber came along and ate their lunch.

If your company isn't actively pursuing autonomous driving capabilities, I'd start looking for a new job pronto.

[–]delftblauw [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

And that's exactly what will happen, sooner rather than later.

I am sure it will happen, but the sooner rather than later comment is out of vague ambition, and the need for a new job pronto is even more so. In a good economy, trucking companies operate on margins of 2-6%. Even for large corporations, that amount of profit is no where near enough to begin forays into automated trucking.

Uber created a disruption by offering a centralized dispatch service that bypassed the standard driver model. That is entirely different than putting automated vehicles on the road. There are still Uber drivers, and there are a hell of a lot more people who have a vehicle at their disposal versus a tractor trailer.

An automated fleet is many years away, but companies like my own who are not preparing for it will be gone.

I got a new job anyway :)

[–]2rio2 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I wonder what the margins on taxi driving are actually. I can't imagine they are all that great with all the regulations in place unless you work an absurd number of hours.

[–]sprawn [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Thank you. I am not really trying to comment on what is going on. I am merely speculating on what is possible. I think that autonomous truck transport on freeways at high speed could be a reality very quickly if we were inclined to make it happen.

[–]LonerGothOnline [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I think the series 'ice road truckers' shows that a human helps when something minor goes wrong which the human can fix it easily.

[–]sprawn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes. I agree. But... you see... the human is there as a backup, and is logging everything that they do. So the human's purpose in a role like this is merely to continue the process of making him or her self unnecessary. So, for instance, if they discover that a $50 part breaks every six months, they could keep a human on board at a cost of $25/hour to fix that part when it breaks. OR, once they know that they can reliably get six months work out of it, they can say, "screw it" and replace the part every four months whether it's broke or not. The same sort of thing happens with every aspect of automation. This is how all automation has always happened in all fields of endeavor.

[–]onewiseowl [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

(long haul trucking could honestly be eliminated within a year, if interstate shippers have their own on and off ramps to the existing highways...)

There's too much liability involved. The law will take years, maybe a decade to catch up with the technology, which still isn't yet there. And actually switching the fleets over to automated trucks will take many years longer still.

You'll probably see a majority of trucks being automated ~15-20 years after the first commercial automated truck hits the market, which will still have a driver.

[–]PhilBlumburtt 16ポイント17ポイント  (46子コメント)

We're now capitalizing basic income? It has truly become this subreddit's God.

[–]killthemallseriously 7ポイント8ポイント  (40子コメント)

If you've got a better idea why don't you let us hear it.

[–]ghost_of_drusepth 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Better idea: don't capitalize it.

[–]Arizth 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, no shit. If we capitalize it, it won't make sense.

Socialize it.

[–]thatsaqualifier 2ポイント3ポイント  (30子コメント)

Who pays for basic income? It won't work. But new jobs will be created.

[–]PIP_SHORT [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Scrap the current welfare systems (that includes corporate welfare), scrap the current health insurance system, close tax loopholes for corporations, scale back military spending, fine the shit out of people like Martin Shkreli, and levy micro-fees for financial transactions.

That should free up more than enough money. Some advocates believe that scrapping the current social security system alone would free up enough money to give every American 1000 dollars a month.

There's fucking shit tons of money in our system. There always seems to be enough money to go to war against questionable enemies.

[–]kleinergruenerkaktus [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Scrap the current welfare systems (that includes corporate welfare), scrap the current health insurance system, close tax loopholes for corporations, scale back military spending, fine the shit out of people like Martin Shkreli, and levy micro-fees for financial transactions.

So you are saying that taking the welfare money that is already being spent to guarantee the bare minimum standard of living for a small percentage of people, adding money that is being spent on healthcare (and will of course still have to be spent on healthcare), adding some money from tax loopholes and decreased military spending will add to a living wage for each and every citizen? How does this work out?

There are 245.2 million US citizens over 18. That's 245.2 billion $ per month in basic income if you give each and everyone 1000$, 2.9 trillion $ per year in basic income. Total federal budget 2014 was 3.5 trillion $. Basic income would be the complete federal budget if you don't give it to children, too. Seriously, there is not nearly enough money being spent to finance a basic income.

[–]MyClitBiggerThanUrD 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Surely wealth created from automation can be taxed. People will find jobs/things to do even when they get basic income.

[–]LanguiDude 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In old hymnals (and scores for musicals) they sometimes capitalize the title of the song whenever it shows up in the lyrics (and it always does.) I think it's not so far-fetched that we just capitalize the title of the sub whenever it shows up in posts.

I know that's not why this happened, but I'd support this as a standard. :-)

[–]Lolicansayfuckonhere 2ポイント3ポイント  (24子コメント)

That easy. They're taking the money from their own profits by causing a recession by making all these people unemployed. No one is going to be able to afford to buy all their shit. Volume buying of the average consumer masses is what makes their money. I just don't know how they've been so dumb to not even see it. Shit will hit the fan and they'll probably have to start hiring people again just to create cash flow to buy their products and keep their businesses going.

Either that or prices for everything will end up having to drop just to get sales. Profit margins will be tiny. Poeple will not need as much to buy when it all balances out. Also every on will have to change careers to mechanical technicians and support.

[–]googlyeyespy 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

It's not that nobody is thinking of the long term. It's just suboptimal group behaviour due to division of (self interested) decision making agents.

For example, even if Walmart was to entirely automate and have zero employees, that's a minimal dent in the national/global employment counts. Obviously if everyone automates, then nobody can sell goods to an unemployed population. However, Walmart have no control over that occurrence. Neither do any other employers.

What is important is how government adapt economic policy to an automated workforce. How they tax, control the money supply, provide benefits and so on will be the critical thing.

[–]GuardianOfAsgard 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, Walmart is the largest employer in the USA with over 2 million employees, so I imagine that there would be some issues in the USA if they were all laid off simultaneously.

[–]googlyeyespy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's why I gave it as the example. 1.4 million employees in the US laid off, that's 1.13% of the US's employment total, gone.

Making simplying assumptions, let's say that leads to a reduction in demand for Walmart revenue of 1.13% (in reality, the reduction would be lower). If robots provide a greater cost saving than a 1.13% loss of revenue, Walmart should still rationally automate everything. And robots are faaaar more cost saving here.

You may well see societal issues from unemployment, but Walmart isn't going to suffer for it. Nor would any other large employer who has to make the decision to automate or not.

[–]TheRealLazloFalconi [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Have you watched season 3 of Orange is the New Black? Corporate types don't care about long term goals, they just need to show improvement for this quarter. If that improvement means the business won't exist in one or two years, that's none of their concern, because by then, they'll have found someone else to blame it on, moved on to another country, or be "too big to fail".

[–]chapterpt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Don't employ our citizens anymore? Robots don't pay income tax? Say hello to massive automation tariffs to fight the job loss and the loss4of governmental income it eill entail. Regulations will likely keep humans in the workforce long after they can be effectively removed.

[–]dahdly [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Study something useful in college and you wont end up at target? I think the educational system is the root of this failure, and all basic income will do is encourage more art history majors...

[–]blacksnow67 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The means to end all poverty cause even more of it - what does that say about the way production is organised?

[–]alexgorale 38ポイント39ポイント  (59子コメント)

logic of 21st century capitalism

It's just the march of progress.

Surprise! Humans get better at doing things over time. Oh, you're general labor? Guess what! Everyone can do that, now including machines!

[–]Knatz 45ポイント46ポイント  (58子コメント)

I don't understand why it's a bad thing? Should we stop plowing the fields with machines too, so we can employ more people?

[–]ByWayOfLaniakea [スコア非表示]  (35子コメント)

It's only considered/seen as a bad thing because of our current economic system. Work to live, or else. Without that constraint, it's absolutely wonderful! The fewer laborers needed, the better.

Except for that work to live bit. That's rather a problem.

[–]r-kellysDOODOOBUTTER [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

This is why, whether you agree with it or not, we will require a socialist government to progress. When the machines do everything for us were just supposed to sit back and relax right?

I think up until this point, socialism wouldn't be the best idea for progress, capitalism really drove progress. But once the companies make all the money from automation and no one has jobs because of automation, no one will have money to buy the products from the companies. They will have a mountain of toasters and no one to sell them to.

[–]ByWayOfLaniakea [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Socialism, or something other than our current economic systems, will likely be the choice humanity makes. What shape that might take, who knows? The replacement of both physical and mental labor, being entirely novel in history, may require an entirely novel solution.

[–]Manacock [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

My thoughts mirror yours. This robot business seems great for me. The money isn't going anywhere, just redirected.

[–]alexgorale [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Right, exactly.

We should stop the assembly lines so we can give blacksmiths back their jobs. Destroy all the computers so the Abacus can make a comeback.

No one is promised a 50 year stretch where they learn one skill and they are done. It's an affront to civilization to hold up progress because of luddites.

[–]kakalib 12ポイント13ポイント  (23子コメント)

Once you reach peak efficiency you have eliminated jobs.

The question then is. What do you have the people do then ?

[–]mindrover [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

If everything is so efficient that no one needs to work, then everyone should have their basic needs provided for free. Offer the opportunity for individuals to make extra money by doing something truly valuable, but provide a safety net for those who can't compete with robots.

[–]kakalib [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yay the wellfare state.

[–]PizzaPieMamaMia [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I really don't get the demonization of the welfare state. That's what every government should strive to reach for. The difference is, you should only strive for it when human labor is no longer efficient enough to justify its use. When robots are more creative and innovative than humans, just let the humans relax for a while before they get slaughtered by the AI masters.

[–]r-kellysDOODOOBUTTER [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Oh god the general public will be on all of my websites, spoiling the meme pool. Make them a separate internet please.

[–]redditvlli [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Peak efficiency is impossible. So people will always have things to do.

[–]kakalib [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Peak efficiency is impossible, correct. People being the most efficient way to handle 'work' ? Not a chance.

So eliminating the need for humans in jobs is a better way of wording in than "peak efficiency".

[–]ILikeLenexa 13ポイント14ポイント  (14子コメント)

The bottom line is probably cut max hours before overtime, raise minimum pay, let robots and more workers fill in the gap. Even that might not be enough. There's an undercover boss where a single woman runs an entire factory by herself. The future may just be programming robots and taking royalties from each item your robot produces.

[–]Grippler 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

Programming robots require education though...something minimum wage job people very often lack.

[–]bent42 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Programming robots require education though...something minimum wage job people very often lack.

That only scratches the surface though. What about all the people who aren't capable of higher education? The cost of education is often pointed to as the biggest barrier, and I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases, but some people just aren't smart enough to move past labor jobs.

[–]Egalitaristen 21ポイント22ポイント  (9子コメント)

And programming isn't something that works like most other jobs. A gifted programmer can create programs that do the job of the not so gifted programmers.

[–]LibertyIsNotFree 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yep. The best software developers write software to automate writing software.

It won't be long 5, 10, or 15 years tops where the tools themselves cover all the basic computer programming and developers design applications from an even higher level. One third to one half of programming is just copying data from x to y and that will definitely go away soon (or be pushed to business people to map the data in the system)

The future will definitely have EVERYONE who has a job to be a programmer of some sorts. The future will also require far less software designers than today.

The only question is whether the world becomes Star Trek or Elysium.

[–]_RedMallard_ [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I disagree that one third to one half of programming is just copying from x to y.

[–]Reaper666 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Arguably, since you're a neural network, all you are is just a fancy (f -> f(x) = y)

[–]LibertyIsNotFree [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're misreading, i said data. A huge part of PROGRAMMING / CODING not development or design.

And this absolutely is what it is.

Copying references or values to local variables. Copying local variables to properties. Occassionally copying data to fields. Copying from text/sql/etc readers to meaningful complex types.

[–]AmnesiaCane 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

I personally know conservatives who, at the same time, will laugh at minimum wage workers losing their jobs to machines, but then angrily decry all those immigrants taking out minimum wage jobs.

[–]Multicorn 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But not before the ruling class consolidates all power and wealth, lowering the standard of living to medieval peasants. I'm sure they'll find some kind of soul crushing labor for the proles.

[–]perigon 21ポイント22ポイント  (99子コメント)

IMO rather than basic income, better education is the answer. Then a system could arise where education and research become the new "bread and butter" jobs. Rather than just give unconditional cash out, create more jobs in research, education and science so that we can move forward faster as a race.

[–]talontario 38ポイント39ポイント  (16子コメント)

where are you getting the money from? the savings from automation will go to a few, who will not keep their money in a country that taxes them hard.

[–]LegendLength [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Welfare doesn't need to be paid in cash. It can be paid by the produce of the automated machines.

[–]Ferelar 29ポイント30ポイント  (25子コメント)

With the push towards everyone becoming more educated, college degrees have begun to count for less and less in the real world. The more we push "everyone must have higher education" the less higher education means to hiring managers.

I'm not saying that means we should have less education, but it means we have to adjust our current paradigm. Otherwise we'll see this trend continue and see postings such as

"Job Posting: Entry level receptionist. Requirements: Masters degree (doctorate strongly preferred)".

[–]Jameis_Squinston 33ポイント34ポイント  (13子コメント)

But the benefit of education isnt about better resumes. That's a big part of what's wrong with this country.

The benefit of good education is having a better educated society. But that's not how it works. Education is a joke in this country. No one is learning they are just checking the boxes

[–]fitzydog 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

To a majority of this country, what's the difference?

[–]Ferelar 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, and therein lies the problem. It's gonna take a lot of changes for it to be any different, too.

[–]Ferelar 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely true. It's rather distressing. But it's very easy to get into that mindset of "I don't care about learning I care about providing for myself", especially if you've experienced financial hardship. And so the resume becomes paramount.

Hypothetically, if we could get to a point in which basic consumption was met and we could worry about other things, then perhaps it would be easier to enforce real education/learning over spiffy employment. That would definitely be interesting. However I'm not convinced it'd go that way. Historically, all things being equal, shifts in affluence just led to people worrying about different things. Instead of worrying about "oh do I have enough food? Better go for a higher paying job." It might simply move to "oh is my watch decent enough to compare with john's? Better go for a higher paying job." Obviously there are outliers but yeah.

Edit: Most egregious typos!

[–]perigon 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

While I agree with your point, as /u/Jameis_Squinston pointed out, the aim of this system would be for better education rather than "for show" degrees. Once you know your stuff, you know your stuff kinda thing.

[–]FreshHotTakes 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

And then as you get your doctorate so you can finally have that receptionist job they automate the job and you're unemployed again.

[–]Ferelar 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Either that or they need 5-10 years of experience so by the time you get your reception job you've defaulted on your student loans and are eating rice and beans for the rest of your life. Obviously a worst case scenario. Although beans are pretty tasty.

[–]ByWayOfLaniakea 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Although beans are pretty tasty.

Trust me, after a while of nothing but rice and beans, they aren't tasty any more. Rice and beans will keep you alive, but after eating them for years you don't really want to be anymore.

[–]Adezar 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

I take it you have never worked in research. Research is unpaid or very low paid. They take fresh graduates and push out the experienced researchers to keep costs down.

[–]Mymobileacct12 10ポイント11ポイント  (9子コメント)

We should dedicate more resources toward research, however you are not going to take a million fast food workers and turn them into scientists and engineers. Look at high schools. How many people were in remedial math or struggled with high school level science? How will they contribute meaningfully to cutting edge research?

Giving anyone who wants it a free ride to any school isn't a bad ideal, but it's infeasible (corsera and the like aside) and frankly not that useful.

[–]perigon 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Of course, but this is something that would have to be implemented over time. Social status and wealth tend to dictate education levels a person receives rather than ability. Granted there are people who simply cannot contribute, but they are a lot fewer than many think.

[–]Mymobileacct12 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd challenge that. As we progress I feel you have an increasing need for people with PhDs to make STEM advances. That's a pretty high bar to hit.

[–]pneuma8828 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Granted there are people who simply cannot contribute, but they are a lot fewer than many think.

That's where you are wrong. Given a working robotic analogue for a human body, physical labor is completely replaced. A robot is stronger than you, never gets tired, never gets sick. A human only has worth at that point for what his mind can do. So really, you are only going to be useful if you are smarter than the guy who programmed the robot.

It will happen in waves. Easily programmable jobs, like drivers, will be the first to go. But then, and more and more people get pushed into programming type jobs, we'll be able to afford to write more and more complicated programs. Robot policemen? Why not? They can actually put themselves at more risk than an officer, and detainment without injury is relatively simple if you don't have to worry about your own safety...

The reality is the number of people who can contribute is going to shrink. Rapidly.

[–]LegendLength [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And then the question becomes what do we really want as a human race, at a deep level? Do we want to continue pushing technology and making it more efficient? I don't see why not except for issues like runaway artificial intelligence and similar things.

But surely the end goal is for all of us to do whatever we want without being restricted to a 9 - 5 job. And so the intermediate question becomes how to achieve that kind of "automated socialism" in the most efficient and "nice" way.

[–]kleecksj 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

This is more likely what will happen. Automation will cause another economic evolution and allow for further specialization in skills - like economic progress has in the past.

The issue this time around is that we're approaching a rate of technological development that will outpace the ability for the workforce to adapt. There will almost certainly be a need for an expansion of government programs (possible a guaranteed income, but the solution doesn't need to be that).

I like your idea, though. Maybe even offer education for free. Or if you're obtaining higher education you get free housing and a monthly living stipend. Make being uneducated really uncomfortable and becoming educated be the clear choice forward.

Always allow for the option, though. We still need to honor the sovereignty of the individual but I think obtaining a higher education could be properly incentivized on a national scale.

[–]mudbuttcoffee 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

Don't forget, the average person is not that smart...and half the population is below average.

[–]Grimjestor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

But on the other hand, half the population is above average too! :D

[–]perigon 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

half the population is below average.

Wiser words have never been spoken

[–]MetaFlight [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Half the population is below the median, not average and I'd say that if you can't tell the difference, you're probably below it.

[–]killego [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

This is hilariously ironic since IQ is normalized and the average and median are the same. Here's hoping you're at least in the 90s

[–]amlybon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Average can refer to mean, median, mode or anything similar.

[–]pneuma8828 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Imagine the average person with a 100 IQ, and how dumb that is. Now come to terms that half of the world is dumber than that. Exactly what is someone with a 90 IQ supposed to do for a living?

[–]keepitwithmine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Still don't think there are enough jobs, and even if there were I don't think there are enough "brilliant" minds to work all the jobs. The fantasy of this "more education" is that 75-85% of people can't process information for it to matter. Although if we manage to automate everything I hope knowledge is just a download to our computer augmented minds. Teachers shouldn't have the means to feed their families if nobody else does, we will have to figure out a way to take their job too.

[–]WouldYouLikeTocuddle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Problem with that is now you have even more people fighting for a smaller pool of grant money.

[–]LegendLength [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The quality and type of education is also an important debate. For example i have developed software for a long time and never used anything higher than 8th grade math (basically). Let alone other subjects.

If my high schooling had focused on software instead then i would've had a much better start to my career.

[–]BpsychedVR 13ポイント14ポイント  (54子コメント)

I'm probably going to get flak for this, however, checking out the wikipedia page on Basic Income a while back, it seemed kind of illogical. And, I'm asking you directly, where would this money come from? As much as I've read that "The government should support Basic Income!" No one has mentioned where the money is coming from to fund Basic Income... The government runs on money from its citizens. If we had Basic Income, wouldn't everyone be taxed more to account for the hundreds of thousands of dollars being lost every year? Wouldn't it drive people to be less competitive as they can "get by" doing less work because of the supplemental money? I just don't get it.

[–]pouchofdouglasadams [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

TLDR: Dismantling all the components of the current welfare state, taxing the system of production, and benefiting from the eventual commoditization of all physical goods and many services.

From the /r/BasicIncome wiki:

How would you pay for it? First and foremost, the basic income is paid for by direct savings of eliminating the waste, fraud, and abuse of the Welfare State. Charles Murray writes, "After a process that has taken decades, the welfare state has severely degraded the traditions of work, thrift, and neighbourliness which enabled the system to work at the outset. It is now spawning social and economic problems that it is powerless to solve."

By completely ending welfare as we know it, "In the United States, a GI (guaranteed income) for all adults aged twenty-one years and older will cost no more than the projected cost of the current system as of 2011. By 2028, [the guaranteed income] will cost a trillion dollars less per year than the projected costs of the current system." Not all would like to go so far as Charles Murray however, and instead believe it would make more sense to keep certain universal government services, like healthcare and education for example.

Secondly, the complete elimination of the Minimum Wage and all associated payroll overheard for businesses. The reason for a basic income that is a fully guaranteed, realistic, living income (see 'How much would the basic income be?') indexed to the real economy is so that these cost savings can all be fully realized and redeployed toward empowering innovation (Christensen).

Of course, taxes on high-end consumption and financial transactions are currently two of the leading methods proposed to make up any gap between the savings gained in completely dismantling the current means-tested welfare state, and a sustainable basic income. Means-testing is a breeding ground for fraud and abuse in any program, and welfare is not immune. Some argue that waste, fraud, and abuse is so understated and invisible, that the gap between savings in total welfare elimination and basic income could be much smaller than presently calculated.

The general idea of fundraising is via taxation. Just as current welfare systems use tax revenue to fund subsidies, the basic income would as well. A simple setup is just a flat tax on income, and/or a flat sales tax. There are a variety of other taxes that could help to fund basic income, depending on the desired secondary effects of the tax. Many European countries use a value added tax (VAT) to positive effect without materially harming consumption. A carbon tax would help to combat global warming as well as providing a new revenue source for basic income. A tax on High Frequency Traders ("Robin Hood tax") would reduce market "flash crashes" without materially harming market efficiency, and a transaction tax on all electronic transactions (APT tax) would tiny per transaction but massive in aggregate. A wealth tax could be more effective in reducing inequality than a traditional income tax. A land value tax (LVT) - taxing the owners of land for its value, excluding any man-made developments on it - would cause very little economic distortion while raising revenue. Many wealthy people earn more from capital gains than income, so raising the level of capital gains tax is likely to produce a lot of revenue. Inheritance tax helps to fight the unfairness of people born to rich parents having a head start in life. And of course, simply raising income tax is always an option.

Recognizing the existence of our common wealth - the property that no one ever made or we all make together - and charging for its use is another method. This is what's known as the "Alaska Model", because it would be similar to how Alaska funds its dividends for all residents, but it would be extended to all the many other common resources like water, air, the electromagnetic spectrum, Big Data, etc. It has been estimated by Peter Barnes that this method can alone provide everyone in the US $5,000 per year.

One other possibility is to include the funding of basic income with citizen centered monetary policy. In a recession, if interest rates are very low and inflation is not too high, but the economy is not growing, the central bank will essentially print money to help increase demand. This has happened in the current crisis; the US Federal Reserve between 2009 and 2014 added $5 trillion to the money supply in quantitative easing (QE). So in certain circumstances, the central bank could print money and cover some of the cost of the basic income for the government, meaning that the government will be free to either cut taxes or increase spending to stimulate the economy without adding to its deficit.

Basically, there are all sorts of underused ways to raise revenue for basic income. No one tax would be able to completely pay for it, but a combination of the different taxes discussed above, as well as the savings from dismantling the current welfare bureaucracy, make it more affordable than it appears. There are a number of studies which have proposed more detailed costed proposals for basic income: United States, UK, Ireland...

No matter how the revenue is raised however, the origins of its surplus ultimately comes from one place, and that place is the same reason the majority of our efforts no longer goes into food production, but into the 98% of our economic activity that now involves everything else. And that is the machine. The machine pays for it.

[–]fuzzzerd [スコア非表示]  (37子コメント)

You are damn right. Why would I bother working hard when I have guaranteed income? There is a logical flaw in the whole thing.

[–]coding_monkey [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

The people who would be willing to stop working for a sustenance income are not the people who are driving progress.

[–]psstwannabuyacarm8 [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

This exactly. I like driving my Corvette and other toys. I strive to make more money and invest. Land, rentals, and other income generators in addition to my job.

If people wanna sit around with just the basics they are not the ones pushing for progress.

[–]TehRoot [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Then they'll bitch and moan and complain that they can't have what you have because they're lazy fuckers. Basic Income is a farce. People think it's cool to lounge around on their asses 24/7 when they're working, but it's honestly boring as fuck.

[–]BudDePo [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

People think it's cool to lounge around on their asses 24/7 when they're working, but it's honestly boring as fuck.

It's extremely depressing. The problem is, to most people, it sounds great when your 18. 5 years later you realize the truth and by then its too late. You've become absolutely worthless because you've been living on basic income for your entire life. I see it leading to a generation of extreme depression and drug use which the hard working, motivated population would be funding through tax dollars.

[–]bubongo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

And what about those people in shitty situations who want to get educated to chase their dreams but are stuck in shitty minimum wage jobs. They have no time or money to do something truly worthwhile because they're stuck. That safety net provided them the ability to go and do something great. And believe me, those people are far more common than the vocal welfare Queens we all get so up in arms about.

[–]myleghairiscurly [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

what about the inevitable scenario where almost ALL jobs will be automated by advanced AIs? You think you will have a job then? Coz the answer is no. Almost none of us will and at that point you are going to need to supply your population with some form of income, because other wise you will have +10 billion people without a job, without an income, without money, food, shelter, etc.

The end goal of our technological modern society is to fully automate everything and have AIs handle the work so that we are left free to do what ever we want. That is an inevitable scenario of technological progress that will be reached sooner or later

[–]FearTheLorax [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The point of a universal income would to provide enough income for the basic needs without a job. Most people are still going to want luxury goods and you'll still have to work to afford those.

[–]francis2559 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Society wouldn't need you to work hard, that's the whole point. Helloooo paradigm shift. Robots work harder than you, period.

Of course if you still found a place to work hard you would be rewarded, just on top of what you already make with basic income. So you could get a boat or a bigger house, etc.

[–]MetaFlight [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Well we have we kind of have 3 options:

  1. Basic Income

  2. Nationalization and/or redistribution of ownership

  3. Let everyone who is an job that can be automated die or survive of the charity of the people who own the robots

Well I guess that's not entirely true, there is a fourth option related to the third, which is most poor people die and those who don't go into prostitution or maybe gladiatorial combat.

[–]greywulfe [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That "logical flaw" already exists. Why would I bother working hard [to move up in my company/get a better job] when I have "guaranteed income" [the job I already have/handouts I'm already getting]?

The idea that people will choose to suddenly stop working if UBI becomes a thing ignores the fact that people like making more money than the minimum, which is evidenced by the fact that people already work when they could choose not to. They already try to get better jobs and higher pay when possible. The difference is that our current system isn't built around the idea of mass worker displacement, and UBI would be.

[–]burning_sandwich [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There are technologies being developed right now that not only advance automation of many things (finance, travel, production, etc), but will also do something about the jobs being destroyed as well. An automated network will bring basic income and services to all (read up on blockchains! a key component in the future to come)

And I don't see why anyone complains about this inevitable move toward automation of all job sectors. Is it really so bad we don't have to live in a world where people have to spend their limited life working a cash register? Or being a bank teller? Cab driver? Factory worker where the only reason their job is not replaced already is because the company cant afford the robot?

But as those jobs are destroyed, just like the industrial revolution too, those "displaced" will find a new home servicing those technologies and developing new ones. Humans still have to engineer, build, deploy, and maintain these automated networks. We'll need an army of drone techs, computer and networking guys, automation specialists, programmers, robotics engineers, etc in the future. College will be online, virtual, and free to all for the education and training.

Freeing ourselves of this crap-work lets all of us move to higher challenges as a species.

[–]boldwhite 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you're pretty much correct, but I think the turmoil will need to be pretty bad for a basic income model to gain traction in the US. It goes against the whole concept of "the American Dream" which Americans really consider part of the fabric of our culture.

[–]Heroic_Stevorino 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm interested to see where it all goes. I get the sense that retail associates will be eliminated in my lifetime and instead you'll have a couple store managers who are trained customer service specialists.

I have often wondered how much the cry for a $15 minimum wage is expediting the automation process to eliminate the jobs altogether.... which is somewhat funny when you think of people rallying together to lose their jobs. Of course, not all minimum wage jobs can be replaced via automation... I'd be interested to see what % is replaceable though.

I totally get why people fight for a $15/hr wage... but I think the better battle to fight would be one for increased career development opportunities within the organization.

[–]TheLAriver [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Such as?

What career development opportunities should be created at Target?

[–]BudDePo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I totally get why people fight for a $15/hr wage... but I think the better battle to fight would be one for increased career development opportunities within the organization.

Agreed. Why not push for more opportunities to improve your value to employers at which point you can leverage your value into higher earnings instead pushing them to pay you more when you offer them nothing in return. People need to look at the situation from an employer's perspective as well as their own.

[–]Lolicansayfuckonhere 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yah but who's gonna have money to buy at targets then? They're just creating their own recession.

[–]YourPassportNumber 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Regardless of whether or not the value of work is going down, workers still have a right to a liveable wage in exchange for working full time hours.

[–]ByWayOfLaniakea [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Regardless of whether or not the value of work is going down, workers people still have a right to a liveable wage in exchange for working full time hours.

Without pointless, inefficient make-work jobs, there simple won't be a need for that many human laborers.

[–]YourPassportNumber [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

They should still get paid enough to live off for the work they do. If there's not enough jobs then the non workers should explore basic income, but there's no excuse not to pay a man an honest wage in exchange for the sweat of his brow.

[–]bob-a-log [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

That is not a right guaranteed in the constitution.

You are looking at the problem incorrectly. You can't just arbitrarily assign a value to a specific job. That jobs value is decided through supply, demand, and profitability. If you can pay someone 5 bucks an hour to sell bananas and make a profit, but paying them 8 bucks an hour and you lose money, then you can't pay them 8. This is independent of whatever you consider a living wage. Bottom line, there will be a point when technology can do the job cheaper than a person. Raising the minimum wage only reduces the number of jobs.

[–]miggitymikeb 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty sure a robot would be friendlier and more helpful than a lot of the people I see working retail.

[–]TheVenetianMask 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it would be easier to sell that this is an exceptional period, and basic income would be an exceptional measure to help people adapt while the wave of automation finishes picking all the low hanging fruit.

[–]Smurfboy82 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You never saw Captain Picard stressing about how he was gonna make rent next month.

[–]Jasper1984 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If you dont have minimum wage, wages go down with little end. They won't end up automating. People won't be unemployed and it "wont be a problem".

With minimum wage it is a problem, menial jobs are automated, and we're forced to face the consequences.(as opposed to not face it)

Btw, i think "race to the bottom" is a term more usually used when different governments are in-effect pitted against each other by multinationals. It is portrayed as "the market" and beneficial, but the problem is, the market does not make value judgements. It doesnt care about CO2 emisions or child labour.

[–]dontnormally [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And when you're caught stealing, you'll be held by robot security. In a robot holding cell. Terrifying.

[–]Shamwow22 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Basic Income is the obvious answer & i'm sure it will happen eventually.

Okay, now tell me how much it would cost to give even the current minimum wage to over 200 million adults.

[–]guyintheblacknissan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There will always be new work for companies that are doing well. They're not doing well right now. But if US govt can stop requiring them to serve shareholders before everyone else, we'll at least have a balance of business interests to make smart decisions rather than always trying to aggressively one-up the last cost savings strategies.

[–]myshieldsforargus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

is that it will constantly lower costs by adopting automation & a race to the bottom between the general working population & robots for less & less income is a road to nowhere.

Wasn't the industrial revolution characterised by adopting automation? How come people's income had been increasing, then?

You can't just produce stuff. Somebody has to consume it and even the rich can only eat so much wagyu beef a day.

[–]James_Locke [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I do think that basic income is a faliure of the education system actually. If your educational systems are so poor that you cannot educate your citizens to fit into a new economy, especially given the increasing centralization of population around cities, then you really have failed to prepare them for life outside their parent's home.

[–]Danyboii [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is why I left this sub. Automation isn't a problem it is a good thing. Technological employment is always temporary. Basic income is an idea that seeks to solve a problem that hasn't even happened nor is predicted to happen. Frankly, armchair economists like yourself don't know what they're taking about and this fear mongering that robots are gonna take yer jobs is over blown and lacks a historical perspective.

[–]1forthethumb [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Basic income is the OBVIOUS answer? That someone should PAY you because your parents bumped uglies and you popped out? Fuck, could you be ANY more entitled?

[–]onewiseowl [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure minimum wage & Unions is the way to go here; Basic Income is the obvious answer & i'm sure it will happen eventually.

I find this certainty troublesome. Yes, it is the logical, rational response. However, that doesn't mean it's what's going to actually happen. Logic, reason, and evidence don't play much of a role in politics.

[–]mrsniperrifle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The question I have is this: if we continue to automate all of these jobs, and remove human labor and thus wages form the work force; who's going to buy all this stuff? People without jobs can't buy things and buying things is what drives the economy.

[–]LurkerOrHydralisk [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Social democracies that want to thrive will need to embrace the basic income. Those that don't will devolve into some form of tyranny and die

[–]qwertyslayer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

RemindMe! 10 years "Is the world in economic chaos due to widespread financial insolvency?"