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The, "Ancient Aliens" trope is inherently racist. (self.SRSDiscussion)

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For those unaware, the trope is basically an ancient civilization discovers a relatively advanced technology for their time, so the explanation is they were helped by aliens. It's seen in Indiana Jones, some documentaries, etc.

The reason it's racist is that it's never applied to white ancient civilizations. Nobody ever said the Romans needed the help of aliens to build their complex road system. It's almost always POC civilizations that are affected by this trope.

This trope carries the assumption that the development of white people is the only normal pace of human development and these ancient foreign cultures somehow where too advanced for the time. as if a culture could not have just evolved like it did. It basically says it’s inconceivable that a non-white culture could have made certain discoveries and advances before white people.

Additionally, it delegitimizes foreign religions. You know these fictional scientists in those films and stories look at hieroglyphs in pyramids and translate the depictions of gods as depictions of the ancient astronauts who have visited those cultures. Western religion is allowed to stay unexplained, unresolved, valid as a belief.

It is very problematic that POC culture gets initialized in such a way.

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[–]Box-Boy 47ポイント48ポイント  (11子コメント)

It does actually get applied to some western civilizations, actually. Romans tend to be hit with it the most and certain Northern European monuments like Stonehenge have also been a topic of debate amongst conspirators too.

I fully agree that its disproportionately popular for ancient civilizations of North African, Middle Eastern, and South American origin to get accused of being aided by Aliens though, and that such conspiracies tend to veer a fair bit into fairly ignorant "there's no WAY this 'primitive' society could do X, even if they managed y, z, and q equally impressive feats, because they weren't advanced enough" territory that not only shows a huge lack of understanding of history but also a very dismissive view of other ancient cultures.

I'd say in the case of westerners who indulge in it that its a symptom of eurocentricism in education more than anything else though, besides maybe any given conspirators own sense of paranoia. Its easy to start believing ancient peoples from other lands were idiots incapable of their achievements when you know jackshit about them to begin with.

[–]AttilaThePun 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

From what I see of the trope, it gets applied to Ancient Egypt more than any other ancient culture.

I'd hesitate to call it racist because Ancient Egyptians are usually represented as the first peoples in the Western genealogical pyramid. For the accepted view of Western progression it goes Egypt -> Greece -> Rome -> Western Europe -> Current civilisation. Obviously this teleological narrative of Western Civilisation is problematic, but within it Ancient Egypt has a privileged position.

Additionally, most Ancient Egyptians are represented as white within Western culture. I won't get into the debate over the actual skin-colour of ancient Egyptians, suffice it to say that the Arabic peoples who live there now are not of the same ethnicity of those who lived there 5000 years ago.

Another explanation may be simple knowledge bias, as in terms of European ancient civilisations, there aren't any of note that we focus upon. The Minoans and Mycenaeans are probably the oldest 'true Western' civilisations an entry-level history textbook would consider, and the Romans and Greeks we study for the most part are classical era, not ancient. A different period in history that has different archetypes of thought surrounding it.

Also, on the point about deligitimising foreign religions - these religions are dead. The people who worshiped Horus and Ra stopped worshiping them long before Europe had any influence outside of Europe.

[–]BushyBrowz [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

When studying World History (a.k.a. Western History) it usually starts with Greece, at least in my experience. This despite the fact that Egypt clearly had a massive influence on Ancient Greece. In fact, it's a consensus by historians that Greece sort of popped up from nowhere and had nothing to do with Egypt, which sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. But hey, I'm not a historian.

[–]TudorGothicSerpent [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

In my experience, they usually start with Sumeria and the Fertile Crescent, then go to Egypt, then to Greece. Of course, my high school was actually decent about teaching world history. They didn't focus much on Africa or Southeast Asia, but they did go into some detail on East Asia and the Americas. My experience may have been atypical because of that.

[–]Trekky0623 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I went to a below average school and even we learned about the Fertile Crescent. It is the basis of the agricultural society story told in history classes today.

[–]WorseThanHipster 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Considering a large portion of the things that really drove innovation at that point in time, especially algebra and writing, were really driven forward in what we now consider the arabic world, much of it independently created in Asia as well.

It's not intentional racism, but it is naive and Eurocentric.

[–]Lolor-arros 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not intentional racism, but it is naive and Eurocentric.

And racist!

[–]Stefan_Zhirkov [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Much of it came from the Gupta empire of India.

[–]rmc 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Stonehenge was built by Celtic Druids. It's too much like the hippy dippy new age stuff for the STEMlords of the Rational Enlightenment. And it wasn't Roman. So clearly aliens.

[–]lolastrasz 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Was it, though? I don't think we know for sure who built it -- just that was built by some culture that didn't leave any record.

[–]rmc -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know if it was, but that's certainly what many think it was.

[–]TudorGothicSerpent [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Stonehenge was actually significantly pre-Celtic. The earliest Proto-Celtic culture that we know of in the archaeological record is the Urnfield Culture, around 3,000 years ago. Stonehenge dates back about 1,000 years before that, and was probably built by the Bell Beaker culture. Where, exactly, the Bell Beaker culture came from is unknown, but it seems like they might have started out on the Iberian peninsula and spread out from there early in the Indo-European period. There were earlier parts to the monument, though, built by neolithic natives.

[–]SpiveyArms 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of those civilizations that are applied to ancient aliens generally fall into two categories

  1. They have depictions or ceremonies that include something that kinda resembles an astronaut

  2. The (generally structures) that are discussed are from either a time period where we either can't translate the writings that might give clues to how they were made, don't have a written description of they they were made, or we simply have no idea how they were built.

Using your example, we know how the Romans made the roads through various sources. We don't really know how things like Stonehenge, the Easter island monuments, or the pyramids were made.

The reason behind this is that if we know how a civilization did something that was "ahead of their time" it takes away any mystery that the ancient alien type people can use/twist into saying that the civilization couldn't have done it.

It's kind of like the saying "technology that is significantly advanced compared to our knowledge is indistinguishable from magic aliens.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

I disagree. White nations were not nearly as advanced as most other nations in most of the periods were "ancient aliens" trope is applied.

We know how the Romans did things, we've got books and accounts of what happened. And we know how the British threw rocks at each other.

What we don't know is how the Inca's or Egyptians did things because their civilizations advanced earlier and before decent record keeping and a lot of the clues have been lost to time.

The only thing that the alien trope can be applied to in Europe is Stonehenge and that's a really boring accomplishment to be honest. Pyramids and other feats are way more compelling.

[–]pviolence 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

What we don't know is how the Inca's or Egyptians did things because their civilizations advanced earlier and before decent record keeping and a lot of the clues have been lost to time.

I think the Inca Empire is relatively modern though

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

They didn't have a great record keeping system yet because they were so isolated. And due to colonization a huge amount of what was was lost.

It isn't older but we don't know much, which makes it mysterious.

[–]haylobos [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The Incas were absolutely not earlier and had established only a hundred years before Spanish contact. Additionally, the Incas DID write about their civilization and documented much of their history in the post contact years using the Latin alphabet.

[–]Aethelric 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

White nations were not nearly as advanced as most other nations in most of the periods were "ancient aliens" trope is applied.

There was no such thing as a "white nation" when the trope was applied. The groups we associate with European features now were still in Asia, for the most part, and "white" is a pretty meaningless term to use to describe anyone prior to the invention of "scientific" race in the latter half of the 2nd millennium AD.

[–]ReNoLuK 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

But since we're talking about how people act towards them in modern times, it just matters whether most people today think of them as white, not whether they actually were.

[–]Aethelric [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Not really! They didn't say "white" nations; they used the phrase "white nation" without qualification or any indication that the term is absolute non-sense. Even if we're talking about peoples that are considered white for whatever reason, it's still worth clarifying that it's a non-sense projection.

[–]ReNoLuK [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it's a good thing to note. I just wanted to point out that it doesn't directly affect the discussion in this case.

[–]Malician 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

agree ability to change government at will is far more important than free monument in every city

[–]Stefan_Zhirkov [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

British threw rocks at each other

Great to see the high level of historical knowledge here. The ancient Britons had hill forts, metal working, trading, and, most of the time, clothes. Portraying them as merely a bunch of feral apes is rubbish.

[–]chaanach 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know these fictional scientists in those films and stories look at hieroglyphs in pyramids and translate the depictions of gods as depictions of the ancient astronauts who have visited those cultures.Western religion is allowed to stay unexplained, unresolved, valid as a belief.

western religion is equally as touched upon but not in an 'aliens' sense but in those doomsayers and such. Different strokes but effectively the same BS

fascinatingly Mormons hit both of those marks with bullshit Egyptology and bullshit christianity remix

[–]Kir-chan 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

A complex road system is a lot less impressive than a gigantic pyramid. The reason these PoC societies get hit with it the most imho is because they have the most impressive monuments left behind.

[–]PrettyNeatPerson 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry, but this is the least important SRS discussion of all time.

[–]justajust 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ironically (or not) there's significant history of black African-Americans building theology around "aliens," from NOI's "Mother Plane" to the Nuwaubians, Sirius B cults and Sun Ra.

While the way the History Channel tells it is lame, there's a history of this kind of thinking that is deeper and more complicated than internalized racism. In fact, to dismiss all that "out there" stuff as a reaction to Eurocentrism would be itself a racist act.

[–]LeMayMayPoster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

In popular fiction that isn't specifically religious, "the religion was actually correct but it was magic or aliens" is about as close to confirmed as any individual religion is going to get. This is more often applied to dead religions to avoid causing offense, but I don't think it's applied disproportionately to religions that began with nonwhite people. Keep in mind that no major religion practiced today was started by people we'd consider white, as far as I remember. Most of the white pagan religions are pretty dead.

[–]freudianasaurus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with everything you've said, aside from 1.) Only POC ancients are accused of accepting help from aliens and 2.) Only religions hailing from regions where POC were are connected with aliens.

1.) Stonehenge and a few of the crop circles in Europe. Though, I do really agree that white people's monuments being "created or inspired by" alien influence are not discussed as much as what's in Mexico, the Middle East, etc. You definitely have a point, but we can't claim that Westerners weren't rumored to have been influenced by aliens.

2.) This may be due to the fact that I don't watch much cable TV, but I saw that "Aliens in the Bible" was a pretty hot topic for a while. Again, people are jerking off over the Egyptians and stuff, so you do have a point. Could it also be argued that, because of its roots in the Middle East, Christianity came from POC? I'm curious about what you guys think about that.

I can see it both ways. It's been Westernized to death, but it also originated with POC in the Middle East.

[–]ampersamp 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The single most popular use of this trope I can think of is Thor, from Marvel comics. Also "inherently racist" implies it can't be used in a decent way, which I can't see why it can't be.

The pyramids is a popular target of this trope, but so is Stonehenge.

[–]Trekky0623 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Are there any white ancient civilizations that made things like the pyramids? The closet I can think of is stonehenge, and I think there are some conspiracy theories surrounding it. So the reason it is mostly applied to non-white ancient civilizations is because there is a lack of white ones and the ones there are didn't make much that is wondrous, not because of inherit racism.

[–]Gintoh [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No one really knows how they built the pyramids or stone hedge, so there's more of a historical void to stick aliens in.

[–]OffColorCommentary [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sorry, /r/badhistory noticed that at least two years ago.

(If you spend a lot of time on the badacademics type subs, you'll find that the most popular bad science/economics/history/linguistics is usually racist.)

[–]chestnutman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I would say the single most famous use of that trope is in 2001: A Space Odyssey where it is applied to the dawn of man. I can't see anything racist or eurocentric in that. (the monolith doesn't even resemble an Egyptian monolith)

But I agree that a less reflected use of that trope can easily lead to a very ignorant perspective.

[–][削除されました]  (16子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]SuitableDragonfly 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

    I'd imagine people in the here and now would be offended at the suggestion that their ancestors all less competent than white people's ancestors, which is something you see all the time on e.g. european and probably other white nationalist spaces, ancient aliens aside.

    [–]awesomefaceninjahead 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

    and Thor? also, white people's ancestors are POC. Lastly, let's not set ancient aliens aside, b/c that's what this post is about.

    [–]SuitableDragonfly 2ポイント3ポイント  (13子コメント)

    I don't know anything about Thor.

    The OP is clearly talking about POC's ancestors in opposition to white people's ancestors. Yes, everyone originally came from Africa, but the intervening period is important, too.

    [–]awesomefaceninjahead 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Thor is a super-hero movie (i.e. he's an Avenger) about a norse god (i.e. white) that was from a race of alien peoples that came to Europe a long time ago and were worshipped by the norse people as gods. It is probably the largest, most widespread and most profitable example of exactly the situation of which you speak.

    [–]SuitableDragonfly 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Ahh, thanks. I knew Thor was a superhero movie and a Norse god, but I didn't know any details of the plot of the movie.

    People in this thread have brought up other examples of ancient white cultures being subjected to this trope, too (Stonehenge, apparently the Romans?), so it's probably not as black and white as OP is suggesting.

    [–]awesomefaceninjahead 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Only one man's opinions here, but honestly, I think it is more a product of lazy people looking for interesting stories to tell than anything else, and while I can't know for sure, I'd be willing to bet that it's exactly because these cultures are long gone that writers are willing to exploit their stories for entertainment. I'm not a POC, so I can't speak for them, but I (white male) don't mind it. I like the stories, even though they are complete bs. As for "historians" that spread these stories as real "theories", well, they are either nutjobs or charlatans. Either way, they aren't worth your, or anyone else's offense.

    [–]SuitableDragonfly 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I don't know, I think there is an element to trying to explain away a culture that you don't identify with in a way you wouldn't try to explain away a culture that you did identify with. Maybe people don't just do it to non-white cultures because modern people don't really identify with ancient Norse religion, etc. either, but it's still kind of a process of othering and treating something with disrespect, even if it doesn't necessarily fall along racial lines. I think it's probably only problematic when some people do identify with the othered culture, though, and how much it contributes to currently problems in some cases is kind of debatable.

    [–]awesomefaceninjahead 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Sure, because "you" know more about the culture with which you identify. There are fewer mysteries about contemporary cultures, and therefore less room to expand on mysteries for entertainment value. I'm not sure who is being hurt here. People who write these stories are just trying to make others happy, no?

    [–]SuitableDragonfly 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    You can definitely write stories that are intended to make people happy that actually contain hurtful stereotypes. so I'm not sure why you think that's a good argument here.

    Sure, no one would try to argue that aliens came and gave us our modern technological advances, but religion is pretty mysterious even when it's a modern religion that people currently practice - there's no real explanation for gods, either way, but you don't see a lot of stories about how the Judeo-Christian god is really an alien. There's some occasional explanations put forward for stuff that happened in the OT, but they mostly seemed aimed at non-believers to get them to believe the OT really happened and wasn't just a story someone wrote. Besides, the fact that people don't know much about cultures with which they don't identify is sort of the root of a lot of problems.

    As for who is being hurt, again, like I said, it's probably anyone who identifies with that ancient culture who's effectively being told that their ancestors weren't really responsible for what they accomplished.

    [–]Kir-chan 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The most recent common ancestor to every human alive wasn't that long ago:

    www.stat.yale.edu/~jtc5/papers/CommonAncestors/NatureAncestorsPressRelease.html

    Genetically and culturally, a black american is just as close to the Roman Empire as they are to Ancient Egypt so the ancestors line of thought is sort of moot.

    [–]SuitableDragonfly 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Even if that were true, which I really doubt1, modern people identify more or less with particular ancient cultures, and that's mostly what's important to modern people, moreso than actual genetics or whether or not their modern culture is more similar to one ancient culture or the other.

    1. This is just a mathematical model of the most recent possible date for a common ancestor. If you look at actual linguistic evidence, you see that can't be the case - PIE is estimated at around 3500 BC (and some suggest the split was much earlier), and PIE speakers would have split up into the various Indo-European-speaking groups around that estimated time. The common ancestor of all Indo-European-speaking people alone had to have existed at least prior to that. When you take into account that IE is only one language family of many, the common ancestor of everyone had to have lived even further back. There's probably archaeological evidence out there for these things, too.