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DiscussionOn this day 28 years ago, one of the world's finest musicians succumbed to injuries from a savage beating. RIP John Francis (Jaco) Pastorius, World's Greatest Bassplayer ("it aint braggin' if you can back it up"). (self.Music)

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[–]krakow056 6ポイント7ポイント  (47子コメント)

After sneaking onstage at a Carlos Santana concert on September 11, 1987, and being ejected from the premises, Pastorius made his way to the Midnight Bottle Club in Wilton Manors, Florida.[24] After reportedly kicking in a glass door, having been refused entrance to the club, he was engaged in a violent confrontation with the club bouncer, Luc Havan.

it wasn't a "savage beating"

fucker was an asshole

[–]stgioia 14ポイント15ポイント  (10子コメント)

According to Bill Milkowski's book (The Extraordinary and Tragic Life of Jaco Pastorius):

  • Jaco’s skull had been fractured; several facial bones were fractured; his right eye was ruptured and dislodged from its socket; and there was massive internal bleeding. The beating was so intense that Jaco’s teeth went through his lips, and Havan’s ring was imprinted on Jaco’s cheek. There was also heavy bleeding from Jaco’s ear, nose, and mouth.

Asshole or not, it was a senseless and disproportional beating.

[–]krakow056 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (9子コメント)

he wouldn't be dead if he wasn't an asshole

so, in that sense, he was the one responsible too

yes, it sucks if you get hit by a car on the highway if you are riding a bike against traffic

but you're still stupid to do it

[–]stgioia 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

28 years after Jaco's death, he still influences a lot of bassists (Robert Trujillo, Stuart Hamm, Flea, Les Claypool, etc). He innovated a lot and it is for sure one of the best bass players of all time.

So with all that said, does it really matters that he was an asshole? IMO this is really small in comparision to his legacy.

[–]karijay 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, it shouldn't matter if a musician was an asshole or a saint - which is why spending time to blame the bouncer who killed Jaco is quite pointless, just as it is pointless to say he was a piece of shit.

[–]tempforfather [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

To be honest i feel like you listed a bunch of rock bassists that sound nothing like him. I'm sure they all list him as an influence, but lets not pretend any of them where even in the same league as jaco.

[–]translunar_injection 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

he wouldn't be dead if he wasn't an asshole

so, in that sense, he was the one responsible too

So girls wearing short skirts are equally responsible for their rape? "Wouldn't have happened if you weren't so hot".

Fucking hell.

[–]krakow056 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

cram that feminist crap

no one says that and it's not the same thing

[–]translunar_injection [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

You are victim blaming here, pure and simple.

[–]krakow056 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

dressing like a slut = doing nothing wrong (hey, please do, ladies)

breaking a fucking door and being beligerant = being an asshole

it's not ok and not something that people should be able to do and feel entitled to get away with

[–]translunar_injection [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

They're the same, in that they are victim blaming.

B&E is not doing nothing wrong, but you are blaming him for his own manslaughter, so it's the same thing.

EDIT

dressing like a slut = doing nothing wrong (hey, please do, ladies)

Jesus

[–]krakow056 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

B&E is not doing nothing wrong

it's a fucking crime! and he didn't just did that and got punished, he pick up a fight

[–]vee_lan_cleef 30ポイント31ポイント  (6子コメント)

I know absolutely nothing about this particular case but club bouncers have beaten more than a few people to death. Lots of them are professional, but lets face it, it's the sort of job that attracts the type of person that might not know when to stop wailing on somebody.

[–]mrxscarface 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Depending on the state, this is bullshit. In CA bouncers have no protection from prosecution if they're involved in an assault. You're lucky if your bar/club backs you up without throwing you under the bus if shit goes down. We were allowed to hold back people from fighting, and herd them outside. I also have no innate desire to pummel anyone to death. Bouncing is a job, and I am more physically inclined to do said job than most people. My personality has nothing to do with it.

Source: Worked as a bouncer for a few years, was fired and almost prosecuted for using a choke hold while defending myself.

[–]vee_lan_cleef 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wasn't saying it's true of all bouncers, like I said many of them are very professional. There have been a few insightful IAMAs on here from bouncers as well, but there's a whole lot of clubs out there and lots of them in pretty seedy areas, you will find plenty of bouncers who aren't as professional as you. In the case of John Pastorius, he died from multiple severe facial fractures. The guy basically smashed his face in.

[–]mrxscarface 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh that's my fault....I misinterpreted what you meant by professional. I thought you meant pro at beating people up. Sorry, it's still early AM where I am...haha.

[–]PIP_SHORT 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not know or not care when to stop.

[–]indorock -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

it's the sort of job that attracts the type of person that might not know when to stop wailing on somebody.

Soo...kind of like a police officer

[–]funktonaut 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Doesn't mean he deserved to die. Have a heart, or have you forgotten how?

[–]thebob8434 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

If he died from it was a "savage beating" It does not matter if he was an asshole you dont beat someone to death over a broken glass door

[–]Red5BillyBumbler[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

No sympathy for the mentally ill?

[–]PIP_SHORT 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

On Reddit? It depends on if the particular mental illness fits into that particular Redditor's worldview. So in general, no.

[–]I_SHAVDMYBALLS_4THIS 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

it wasn't a "savage beating" fucker was an asshole

The truth is somewhere in between those two statements. If I recall correctly from his autobiography, it was really just a well/terribly-placed punch to the forehead with enough force to just decimate him. There was even a ring-imprint on his head from the bouncer's hand.

And yeah, he was an asshole, which probably didn't help him when he actually needed help. You can only burn so many bridges over the years, and when the drugs really made his BPD worse, but I'm sure there just wasn't enough good will left for people to notice/expend.

[–]299152595 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You recall incorrectly.

[Jaco’s] skull had been fractured; several facial bones were fractured; his right eye was ruptured and dislodged from its socket; and there was massive internal bleeding. The beating was so intense that Jaco’s teeth went through his lips, and Havan’s ring was imprinted on Jaco’s cheek. There was also heavy bleeding from Jaco’s ear, nose, and mouth. [I’ll also add that had Jaco lived, he would have permanently lost the use of his right eye and his left arm, according to his doctors].

That is most definitely fucking murder. The man was a 3rd degree black belt. Pastorius was a scrawny musician. He should have called the cops if Pastorius was being that belligerent. He had no right to beat the man like that, regardless of how much of an asshole he was being.

This was Havan's statement (an outright fucking lie to cover his ass because he knows he murdered the man):

In a sworn statement by defendant Havan, Pastorius began to kick the front door of the bottle club. Havan opened the door and Pastorius fled. Havan struck Pastorius with his right hand, causing Pastorius to fall and become unconscious. Havan turned from Pastorius and walked away, leaving him unconscious.

[–]_fidel_castro_ 49ポイント50ポイント  (19子コメント)

You are the asshole. Pastorius was pretty crazy and sometimes stupid, but that doesn't equal a death sentence. Bouncer broke several bones in his face and his arm, plus the brain haemorrhage that ultimately killed him. It was a savage beating and you shouldn't condone it. Nobody deservest to die because an bar altercation.

[–]ThePnusMytier [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I feel like this guy, and many others in this thread, are ignoring so many other popular musicians who have pulled just as obnoxious bullshit and attributed it to the rockstar lifestyle and are still fuckin respected for it. If someone like Axl Rose got killed by a bouncer (back when G&R was still together and huge), people would get stomped on for saying he deserved it and not giving a shit.

[–]thisNewFoundLand 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

...you do realize the bouncer pleaded down to the lesser charge of manslaughter. wow -- reddit is filled with self-derision projected onto any target it can grasp.

[–]299152595 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Jaco’s] skull had been fractured; several facial bones were fractured; his right eye was ruptured and dislodged from its socket; and there was massive internal bleeding. The beating was so intense that Jaco’s teeth went through his lips, and Havan’s ring was imprinted on Jaco’s cheek. There was also heavy bleeding from Jaco’s ear, nose, and mouth. [I’ll also add that had Jaco lived, he would have permanently lost the use of his right eye and his left arm, according to his doctors].

That is most definitely fucking murder. The man was a 3rd degree black belt. Pastorius was a scrawny musician. He should have called the cops if Pastorius was being that belligerent. He had no right to beat the man like that, regardless of how much of an asshole he was being.

Edit: This was Havan's statement (an outright fucking lie to cover his ass because he knows he murdered the man):

In a sworn statement by defendant Havan, Pastorius began to kick the front door of the bottle club. Havan opened the door and Pastorius fled. Havan struck Pastorius with his right hand, causing Pastorius to fall and become unconscious. Havan turned from Pastorius and walked away, leaving him unconscious.