Solar Eclipses are not Caused by the Moon
According to Vedic Astronomy, the most ancient and accurate system of astronomy on the planet, solar eclipses are not caused by the Moon coming in front of the Sun as astronomers believe. Rather the Moon is described as being further away than the Sun and what happens at the time of a solar eclipse is the Moon goes behind the Sun and a dark planet call Rahu comes between the Sun and the Earth.
Of course, because we have been conditioned to believe as fact the structure of the universe as it has been taught to us since childhood we find it very difficult to accept such a thing. But it only requires a little thought to see that actually the ‘modern’ scientific idea is incompatible with our observations and the timeless Vedic knowledge is compatible with our observations.
Look at the moon on a full-moon night. It is shining so brightly that it lights up the whole surface of the Earth. On a full moon night you can very clearly see everything. Of course it is not as bright as the sunshine, but everything is very clearly visible. And if you were to view the earth from space on a full moon night it would not be dark. It would be illuminated by the moonshine and all the features of the earth would be clearly visible.
As there is ‘moonshine’ there must also be ‘earthshine’. Much of the earth is covered by water which is a good reflector of sunlight. In fact the scientists say ‘earthshine’ is much brighter than ‘moonshine’. And according to our understanding the earth is enormous in comparison to the size of the moon. So if the moonshine can completely illuminate this earth on a full moon night then the earthshine can completely illuminate the moon.
The ‘earthshine’ bombarding the moon at the time of a total solar eclipse would be at least ten times brighter than the moonshine on the earth on a full moon night.
If Western astronomers are correct the solar eclipse would be the prefect time to see the moon illuminated by earthshine. The shadow created which causes the solar eclipse on earth is, according to NASA, at most 167 miles wide. So if you were sitting on the moon during a solar eclipse you would see an extremely bright earth planet with a dark circle of only 167 miles wide. This is not enough to diminish the earthshine in any significant way. So even though the sun is behind the moon, the full force of the sunshine is hitting the earth and reflecting off those shiny blue oceans and reflecting off the land also. So the moon is completely illuminated by earthshine, even though the sun is directly behind it.
Now if Western astronomers were correct, if you were in that 167 mile wide path of the total eclipse of the sun when the sun was completely covered you would of course see the sky become black and then you could see the stars. But if the sun was covered by the moon you would be able to see the moon quite clearly, in front of the sun, illuminated by the ‘earthshine’. Of course it would not be as bright as the full moon, but the earthshine would certainly illuminate the surface of the moon so we could clearly see it and clearly make out the features on the moon’s surface.
But this does not happen… During a solar eclipse the sun goes completely black and even though the sunlight is blocked out and the sky goes black one can not detect the moon at all. It is just black. No moon. Of course we should be able to see the features on the moon as it is being bathed in brilliant earthshine… The sun should disappear and we should see the stars and in the place of the sun we should see the moon, illuminated by the earthshine. But we don’t see this.
So what does that mean? It means it is not the moon causing the solar eclipses. We know from the Vedas that what causes solar eclipses is a dark planet, currently unknown in the Western world, which hides in the shadow of the moon. Rahu is relatively close to us, around about the same distance as we think the moon is, but it is completely black, it does not reflect light at all. So even though there is plenty of earthshine falling on Rahu, because it is a black planet none of that light will be reflected back so we will see the sun simply blacked out in the sky on a full eclipse. Which is what we do see.
So this is absolute proof that the assumption of Western astronomers that solar eclipses are caused by the moon coming between the earth and the sun is wrong. Because if that was the case we would be able to see the moon during the full eclipse of the sun as it would be bathed in bright earthshine….
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
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53 Responses to Solar Eclipses are not Caused by the Moon
About the Author
Madhudvisa dasa My first contact with a Hare Krishna was a most merciful Mataji in Oxford Street, London who sold me a "Higher Taste" cook book in 1984 while I was on holidays there. I started seriously reading Srila Prabhupada's books in Australia 1985 and by 1986 Srila Prabhupada had convinced me "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" and "we should surrender to Krishna." I joined the Hare Krishnas in Perth, Western Australia in 1986. Since then I have been chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, reading and distributing Srila Prabhupada's books and preaching as much as I can. That's my life and full-time occupation now really. I like it more than anything I've ever experienced before. Srila Prabhupada's books are so amazing... Even after reading them all many times they're still fresh and new. They are truly transcendental! That's it really. Now I'm just hankering to once again see the world chant Hare Krishna, dance and feast and float away in the ecstasy of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana movement as it did in Srila Prabhupada's physical presence. Let the whole world drown in the ecstatic flood of love of Krishna!
There is a simple explanation for this from “modern” science. The sun’s corona is comparable to the light from a full moon. Therefore it is quite difficult to see earth shine on the moon during a solar eclipse.
Hare Krishna Jim
It is not that it is ‘quite difficult’ to see the earthshine on the moon during a solar eclipse, you can’t see it at all. It is pitch black. You don’t have to look at the corona at the time of the solar eclipse. It is completely irrelevant. You can take your telescope and look at the moon during a solar eclipse. You are not looking at the corona all, you are looking at the surface of the moon, and regardless of whether there is a corona or not the surface of the moon should be illuminated by the earthshine which should be considerably brigher than the moonshine on earth on a full moon day because the earth is so much bigger than the moon. Sure we are not going to expect the moon to be illuminated like a full moon, and sure if you look at it compared to the corona it may be difficult to see the earthshine on the moon as you say. But nonetheless the earthshine must be there on the surface of the moon if the modern scientific theory is correct. And it must be illuminated to a considerably greater degree than the surface of the earth is illuminated at the time of a full moon. And you know quite well that on a full moon everything is clearly visible and if you look at the earth from space on a full moon night you can very clearly distinguish at least major features like water and land and mountains and deserts, etc.
So, if we are to accept the theory of modern science, then we must be able to see the major features of the surface of the moon during a solar eclipse because it is completely bathed in earthshine…
Let me know what you think. I agree that in comparison to the corona the details may appear dim, but they must be there and must be clearly visible through a sensitive telescope.
Thank you for your reply Madhudvisa dasa. Here is a picture that clearly illustrates that the moon is still visible(with the correct camera settings) during a solar eclipse:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/pictures-of-the-year/8221974/Pictures-of-the-year-2010-space-station-sun-moon-Mars-and-the-solar-system.html?image=19
Here is one more:
http://stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov/img/total_lg.gif
I’m sure I could find more if you would like more evidence.
I have two other questions:
If it is true that Rahu is coming in front of the sun during a solar eclipse and the moon is going behind the sun, then the moon shouldn’t be observable from anywhere on or near earth, correct. How is it that solar eclipses can only be seen from certain places on earth, while the moon is still perfectly visible from other places on earth at the same time, and also still visible from the international space station? Clearly the moon can’t be behind the sun otherwise the whole world would be unable to see the moon at that time.
My second question is: if it’s true that the moon is farther away from the earth than the sun it means that the moon is therefore larger than the sun(because it is a larger object when we look at it). Considering that, how do you explain lunar eclipses? How can earth, which is orders of magnitude smaller than the moon and so far away effect the moon with its shadow?
Here are several more pictures that clearly show the moon’s surface during a solar eclipse:
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080920.html
http://www.astrosurf.com/lecleire/2010/solar_eclipse_lecleire1__.jpg
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/images/vojto1_pub_eclipse.jpg
http://www.scilogs.de/kosmo/gallery/16/hurzdyn.jpg
Thank you, Jim
Hare Krishna Jim
I have to admit I do not really understand how Rahu is causing the solar and lunar eclipses. That idea I am also exploring myself so I am grateful for your input on this.
The idea is that our current Western concept of the universe is a ‘predictive model’ which has been developed by earth-bound observers of a very vast system, the universe, and we really have a very limited view of the universe from earth. It is a very good model which explains what we observe in the sky, but we have to be open to the possibility that the model does not completely reflect the reality of the system. The Vedic model is also a very good predictive model and allows the exact calculation of all events we see occurring in the sky but it is using a very different assumptions as to how the universe works to get the same results as we get from the Western model…
Thank you for the images of the moon’s surface during the solar eclipse. It is interesting… You know these are days of photoshop and people will do anything to get an award winning photograph. It should look like this and any thoughtful person knows it should look like this so the temptation may be there to use photoshop to make it look like this… But we also know of course that it does not look like this… There are millions of photos of solar eclipses where the sun is completely blacked out during a solar eclipse. Obviously the moon should be clearly visible during a solar eclipse to the naked eye. The earthshine is very bright on the moon at that time because on the moon it is the ‘full earth’ at that moment except for the small black circle of the eclipse on the earth…
Of course you say it is all in the camera settings… But the moon’s surface should be clearly visible to anyone during a solar eclipse. This is easy to check the next time we have a solar eclipse. If it is true and you can see the surface of the moon during a solar eclipse you have a very good point… Because if Rahu is between the earth and sun at that time you could not see the moon…
As far as your first statement is concerned solar eclipses can only occur when there is no moon. You can only get a solar eclipse on the no moon day. So when there is a solar eclipse no one can see the moon from anywhere on earth nor can they see the moon from the international space station which is only about 200 miles up so they get much the same view of the moon as we do. And on the no moon day the moon is dark everywhere on the planet, so no one can see it. And anyhow for everyone else at that time, except for the people in the small area of the total eclipse, they have no hope of seeing the moon because it is daytime and the sun is in the sky so in the bright sunlight no one can see the dark moon. So you have not really thought this point out very clearly. It is not correct. If the moon goes behind the sun at this time no one will know because at that time no one can see the moon anywhere else…
As far as your second question, you are right, it is stated in the Vedic model of the universe that I am referring to that the moon is much larger and further away than the sun. Luna eclipses are not the earth’s shadow, but the same planet, Rahu, who causes the solar eclipses by coming in front of the sun, also causes the lunar eclipses by coming in front of the moon.
The sun and the moon appear about the same size in the sky and if the moon is really further away than the sun then one planet at the correct distance from earth would be capable of causing both the solar and lunar eclipses. It appears that Rahu may be something like what we think the moon is and maybe a similar distance away from us as the moon but I am not sure about this.
As far as I understand it Rahu is hiding in the shadows of the moon. So I think we can assume Rahu is always somewhere in line between the moon and the earth. And lunar eclipses can only happen on the full moon. So that means when the sun is shining directly on the face of the moon that we are viewing from earth. So to create a lunar eclipse that is only visible from a small area on the earth something has to come between the line of sight of the observer on the earth and the moon. Like a dark planet called Rahu. Now that would not create a shadow on the moon… That would just block out the moon for the observers in a small area on the earth and the moon would remain visible for everyone else on the earth.
Actually I do not know if this happens or not. But if the ‘modern science’ theory is correct and Lunar eclipses are caused by the earth’s shadow falling on the moon, by the earth blocking the light of the sun so it does not reach the moon at all, then the lunar eclipse would be visible from the whole half of the planet who could see the moon at that time. Because it would be a real shadow blocking the sunlight from falling on the same surface of the moon which is visible to half the planet at the same time.
The lunar eclipse only happens on the full moon, and on the full moon the moon rises when the sun sets and sets when the sun rises. So on the full moon day the moon is visible to half of the planet. On the no moon day the moon rises and sets with the sun so on that day it is not visible to anyone because during the night it is not in the sky and during the day it is dark and blocked out by the sunlight. So the only time we really get to see the moons surface bathed in brilliant earthshine on the ‘full earth’ day is during a solar eclipse…
Let me know what you think.
Madhudvisa dasa
With respect, and the lunar eclipse? If the moon is farther from the sun, how can the earth’s shadow covers the moon? Because without a doubt is the Moon which is cubrida by the shadow of the earth.
Hare Krishna Juan
The earth’s shadow can never cover the moon. The moon is far, far away, above the sun. What covers the moon at the time of the lunar eclipse is also Rahu.
It just looks like the moon may be covered by the shadow of the earth, but you have no way of knowing this. It is just a theory. The reality is something different.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
So Rahu being a completely black planet casts a shadow on the moon and makes it look red instead of making it disappear during the Lunar Eclipse?
Hare Krishna Shreyas
It is Rahu’s shadow on the moon. Rahu is between the sun and the moon. So it will not be any different from the earth being between the sun and the moon. So it will look exactly the same. If we assume both Rahu and the earth are solid round objects. So their shadows will look exactly the same when they hit the moon.
All we know from observing a lunar eclipse is there is something coming between the sun and the moon and we can see it is circular. But we do not know what it is. It could be Earth, but it could also be Rahu. Because the western astronomers know about earth and don’t know about rahu they have assumed it is earth. But actually it is rahu…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Hare Krishna Madhudvisa Dasa
Point no. 1: From your earlier comments, Rahu causes the solar eclipse by coming between the earth and the sun.
Point no. 2: Again, from your comments, since Rahu is completely “black”, it is not illuminated by “earthshine”. This means that Rahu absorbs any light that is incident on it.
Point no. 3: “Western” scientists claim that the moon appears dim and red during the lunar eclipse due to scattering of light from earth’s atmosphere. If earth did not have an atmosphere, the moon would have disappeared completely.
Point no. 4: If Rahu absorbed all incident light (as you claimed), Rahu would make the moon disappear completely, because it would not allow any of the sun’s light to fall on the moon.
Fact: Rahu does not make the moon disappear during lunar eclipse.
Observation: Rahu is a perfect black body during solar eclipse and scatters light during the lunar eclipse, i.e. Rahu is black and not black at the same time.
Inference: Rahu theory leads to inconsistency about nature of Rahu. Hence, Rahu theory debunked. QED.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Shreyas
Hare Krishna Shreyas
Rahu is not a theory. It is a fact. The knowledge of Rahu is there in the Vedas. Veda means knowledge. It is not a theory and you can not “debunk” a fact… You may not completely understand the fact, but that is your fault, your incomplete understanding.
What makes you think that Rahu does not have an atmosphere? Why can’t Rahu have an atmosphere that can deflect and filter the sun’s light? It is irrelevant if Rahu is black and the earth is mostly blue. Because the sun is behind the earth and it is therefore black looking at it from the direction of the moon. There is no light reflecting off the earth if you look at it from the dark side, it may as well be black. So your argument is false.
Actually we can not know from the perspective of earth using our imperfect senses what is happening way out there in the sky. The materialists can only make a guess and test that guess against what they observe. So the western scientists actually have no real idea why the moon is sometimes [not always] red during a lunar eclipse. It is just that they have observed that it is sometimes red an even if it is not red it is still in the sky but just much dimmer than it should be. So based on these observed facts they guess what may be happening. And if the guess sounds reasonable and explains what they see happening fairly well it becomes the scientific doctrine. And, with all due respect, fools like you accept it as ‘fact’. It is not a fact, it is a theory.
On the other hand, we do not accept the imperfect information that we can gather from our imperfect senses as being very valuable. We have a perfect source of knowledge, the Vedas. Veda means knowledge, and what is written in the Vedas is correct. And it is written in the Vedas that the cause of the solar and lunar eclipses is Rahu. Now exactly how that is, we many not completely understand, but we accept the Vedas as our authority, not modern science. So the point is everyone has to have some faith in someone to get their knowledge from. You have faith in the scientists and you reject the Vedas. I have faith in the Vedas and reject the scientists. Actually I am correct and you are wrong. But there is an English saying “It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss.” Everyone accepts the ignorant ramblings of the scientists so if you speak the truth they will get upset… Still the truth is the truth and the scientists are ignorant fools.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
I don’t understand how is it possible that the moon is farther and bigger than the sun? Scientist have already traveled to moon. If it was that far we wouldn’t have been able to step on moon.
Hare Krishna Soun
You can not know if the moon is bigger or smaller than the sun by looking at the sun and the moon from earth. It is all relative. Both the sun and the moon appear to be the same size in the sky to us actually but Western science is telling us the sun is very far away and the moon is very close so the moon is very small and the sun is very big. This is an ‘educated guess’ only. Based on a hypothesis as to how the universe works. But if their hypothesis is wrong and the universe is working in a different way then it may well be that the moon is larger than the sun and further away from the sun. And we would never be able to tell the difference from our position on earth.
As far as scientists having traveled to the moon there is absolutely no evidence that scientists have traveled to the moon. There is plenty of information on the web about the “moon hoax”
http://krishna.org/did-man-really-walk-on-the-moon/
It is a crazy story. In the 1960’s with cave-man technology compared to today’s technology, they had six or so successful moon missions, putting men on the moon, transmitting live television from the moon, and safely bringing the men back to earth… That is a round-trip journey of about half a million miles each time. And in the 50 years since then no man has traveled more than 200 miles or so up to earth orbit. And now NASA is unable to send men to the moon… So the whole ‘moon mission’ thing is very, very suspicious.
So I think you can take it for a fact that the scientists have not been able to step on the moon.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Rahu and Kethu are intersection points of Solar path and Lunar path. That is the reason the Hindu astronomy says that both are ‘Chaya’ graha which means ‘Shadow’ planets. They appears to be like planets but in reality there is nothing but intersection points. This was well explained in metaphor in sanskrit shlokas of Rahu and Kethu. When the moon overtakes the sun at the place where their paths intersect periodically, the sun or the moon is hidden from the earth’s view and is thus called a solar or lunar eclipse or in metaphor or symbolic language, it is said that Rahun or Kethu ‘swallow up’ moon or sun.
Hare Krishna Vimal
Yes. Hindu astronomy does say this about Rahu and Ketu. But we are not really talking about “Hindu Astronomy” here. We are talking about thece structure of the universe as it is revealed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. And there, in the Bhagavatam, Rahu is a planet. A solid object. The Rahu planet was created when the Mohini Murti form of Lord Krishna detected that the demon Rahu had dressed himself up as a demigod and was sitting in the line with the demigods to get the nectar. Rahu realized that although Mohini-Murti was speaking very sweetly to the demons, she did not actually intend to give them any of the nectar, so he intelligently dressed himself up as a demigod and sat in the demigod’s line. He was able to get some nectar but then Mohini-Murti realized he was Rahu, the demon, and immediately chopped his head off. So because the nectar touched his head the head became immortal, and Rahu’s head then became the planet Rahu who was always inimical to the sun and the moon and who therefore tries to attack them in the solar and lunar eclipses. So you see from the perspective of the Vedas Rahu is a solid planet.
Hindu astronomy is a different thing. Hindu astronomy, much like western astronomy, is not really for understanding exactly how the things are working in the universe, it is a predictive, calculation system. So Hindu astronomy, like western astronomy, provided formulas and methods of calculation that enable the prediction of the locations of the various heavenly bodies at certain points in time. This enables calendars to be constructed and the prediction of events like solar and lunar eclipses. There are different models also in Hindu astronomy. And western astronomy presents yet another model. But all the models, although they are based on different assumptions of how the universe works, are able to predict the movements of the heavenly objects fairly well.
For example the Hindu model uses a stationary earth, which is not one of the planets, and has all the stars and constellations fixed to the wheel of the zodiac and rotating. The sun, moon and planets also rotate with the zodiac but they have their own independent movement also so they are at different times seen in different houses of the zodiac. They appear to be wandering among the stars… On the other hand the Western model uses a rotating earth and relatively stationary stars and constellations, etc. So these are actually dramatically different models and obviously they are not both actually correct but because from our perspective on earth we see the relative rotation between the earth and the stars and other heavenly bodies, we have no way of actually knowing which assumption is correct. It could the earth is rotating or it could be that the universe is rotating around the earth. Because the relative movement is the same it would look identical to us.
In these astronomical models they are looking for predictive accuracy. That is the idea. If a astronomical model can make accurate predictions of the movements of the heavenly bodies that is useful for many purposes. But just because an astronomical model can make reasonably accurate predictions does not necessarily mean that the underlying assumptions made in the model that produces those predictions are correct.
The information we have about the universe in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, is different. That is absolute knowledge of the actual system. It is not a predictive model. We are getting actual eye-witness knowledge of the systems that cause the universe to function from great personalities like Lord Brahma who actually created the systems and Narada Muni who is a transcendental spaceman and who can travel at will to any place in the material and spiritual worlds. So Lord Brahma and Narada Muni are perfect authorities on the structure and workings of the universe so when we get information from them about the working of the universe it is perfect knowledge. Of course they are seeing the universe from a very different perspective than the perspective we see it from here on earth. Really we can see practically nothing of the universe. We can see a few points of light in the sky, that is all. We have only got a 2 dimensional view. We can see around the horizon 360 degrees and we can see the elevation from zero to 90 degrees. That is all. Only two dimensions. But the universe has at least three dimensions. So we have no ability to see the universe and if we can not see something then we have no ability to understand how it is working. If we want to actually understand the workings of the universe then we have to find a person who has perfect knowledge of the workings of the universe and hear about it submissively from him. So Lord Krishna, Lord Brahma and Sriman Narada Muni are three perfect authorities who actually know how the universe works. If we hear from them we will get real knowledge. Hindu astronomy or western astronomy is a different thing altogether. These are just calculation systems that allow the prediction of the positions of the heavenly bodies at various points in time. They do not necessarily reflect the actual situation and workings of the universe.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
It’s an amazing set of theories. The video you posted at the top was incredibly interesting and anyone claiming to search for knowledge should give it a look. That being said, I’m agnostic and not prone to believe the parts about agiant sea creatures holding up our very universe and what have you but then again I don’t rule anything out either seeing as there’s no way of knowing for sure other than Krishna comming down and personally telling me that is in fact how he rolls.
`The shadow created which causes the solar eclipse on earth is, according to NASA, at most 167 miles wide. So if you were sitting on the moon during a solar eclipse you would see an extremely bright earth planet with a dark circle of only 167 miles wide. This is not enough to diminish the earthshine in any significant way.”
Can you provide any reference?
Hare krishnaaaaaaaaaaaaaa………..
Just search for images of the solar eclipse from space any you will see the fully illuminated earth with a tiny black dot which is the solar eclipse. Or look at any map they produce that shows the area it is viewable from and you will see that is a narrow track that moves across the earth as the sun moves and you will see that it is only about 150 miles wide [some eclipses are wider than others. So it is a fact. The shadow created on the earth is only tiny in comparison to the size of the whole earth and would not diminish the ‘earthshine’ on the moon at all during the ‘full-earth’ day, and the ‘full-earth’ day on the moon, according to the modern scientists, must be much, much brighter than the full-moon day on the earth. The shiny water on the earth must reflect more sunshine than the dull moon rocks the scientists tell us the moon is made of and the earth is hundreds of times bigger in the sky from the moon then the moon is in the sky from the earth [according to the scientists…]
Anyhow, I think you see the point, during a total solar eclipse, if the moon is in front of the sun, the moon will be completely illuminated by the brilliant ‘earthshine’ and every feature of the moon will be fully visible to the naked eye at least during the totality of the eclipse.
You con find plenty of references for this but try to understand it…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Ok. I have understood your point. But you have quoted that NASA says. You must provide reference. Otherwise, what is the meaning of quoting such a reputed society.
Just look it up yourself, can’t you even do a google search…
Try ‘solar eclipse from space’ then click on ‘images’
http://media.techeblog.com/images/solar_eclipse_space.jpg
Your entire argument is based on your claim that as ‘moonshine’ illuminates earth, and it is most during full moon, so should be the case for ‘earthshine’ illuminating the moon.
Now, you say that moonshine’s illumination is enough to see that area from space, can you prove it ?
As far as earthshine illuminating the moon is concerned, I am sure that phenomenon would be observed on the moon, just as we observe moonshine on earth, but you have not put forward a logical argument supported with evidence as to why this earthshine should illuminate the moon to such an intensity that it be visible during the eclipse !
To prove that, you’ll have to prove that the amount of light that is reflected from moon, during the eclipse is intense enough that it does not get scattered in the environment before reaching the human eye, or, you’ll have to take a picture from space, with the satellite between earth and moon.
Now, as to your fictitious ‘dark planets’ of rahu and ketu, the fact that they do not exist is supported by the evidence that the trajectories of planets, that of earth and moon, and of other planets can be predicted with very high precision, taking into account, the mass of planets, suns, etc. Now, if there exists one or both of your friends rahu and ketu, they’ll have to be relatively near earth and moon, and hence influencing the trajectories too, and our prediction for the trajectory of moon, in particular, will go awry ! but that is not the case, hence again, your hypothesis is false.
Again, you say that Mr. Rahu and his ketu are ‘black’, as in they do not reflect light, please understand that the visible light is a small part of electromagnetic spectrum, if these fictitious planets did exist, they must have had given signatures in atleast one of the numerous radio telescopes that are employed around the world to explore the space, but that has not happened either.
Again, if you are so sure about the existence of these fictitious planets, all you have to do take their picture [ in the wave-lengths of X-Ray or Infrared or just show their effect on radio telescopes ], and you’ll win the case for yourself and and for the ‘vedic astrology’.
finally, I would like to ask you, if you are aware that Aryabhatta, infact did prove that the solar eclipse is caused by moon coming between and earth ?
Hare Krishna Prateek
You are wrong, my entire argument is based on the fact that the Vedas contain an actual description of the way the universe works and they state that solar and lunar eclipse are caused by Rahu. I have not mentioned Ketu at all. You have introduced that.
As far as the trajectories of the planets being very accurately predicted. Yes. That is true but these predictions in the West are based on observation of the trajectories of the planets in the past. Not on the position of various bodies in the universe. They just observe where the planets are going and record that and from that observation they come up with some formula and can make predictions for the future.
I think you might be an Indian and perhaps you know that in India for a very long time, like for example 5,000 years ago, the sages in India were completely aware of the exact positions of all the planets and constellations in the sky at any point in time. They could calculate this immediately for any point of time. This is required for astrology. So you might question as to how your Indian sages were able to calculate the exact positions of all the planets and constellations when they couldn’t even see some of the planets? You know the Indian sages 5000 years ago were not using telescopes yet they could predict the movements of all the planets and they could predict exactly to a fraction of a second when the solar and lunar eclipses would occur. But they never actually observed anything in the sky to make these predictions. So how did they do it?
Pasyate jnana sastra caksus ca, they used the sastras as their eyes. Instead of using telescopes to see the sky they looked into the Vedas to see the sky. And from the description of the universe found in the Joyti sastras they could understand the movements of all the planets and the constellations and could accurately predict all the universal events down to a fraction of a second. As an Indian you know that these ancient Indian astrological methods work. And they work simply by using the formulas provided in the Joyti-sastra, not by observation of the planets and constellations in the sky.
So what is presented in the Vedas is at least a valid calculation model for the universe. It works. If you use the Vedic formulas they do very accurately predict all the movements of the heavenly bodies. So if the model works then we have to consider that maybe the model is valid? And according to the Vedic model the eclipses are caused by Rahu, not the moon.
As far as the Earthshine, of course there is not going to be earthshine on the moon, because the moon is actually too far away from the earth for the earthshine to reach it. But if the moon was actually only 250,000 miles away then the earthshine on the ‘full earth’ day, the day on which the solar eclipses occur would be so intense that as soon as there was the total eclipse everyone would be able to clearly see the details on the moon due to the brilliant earthshine. This earthshine would be so much stronger than moonshine on earth. As I have described the scientists say the moon is no more reflective than dull black asphelt [that should make you question their sanity for starters!] and we know that the earth is predominantly brilliant shiny oceans and white clouds and even the earths atmosphere is reflective because it reflects away so much radiation and obviously light as well. So the earth is brilliantly reflective and the moon is just like dull black asphelt. And looking at the earth from the moon the earth is about 8,000 miles in diameter and the moon is only 2,000 miles in diameter. So if you were to look at the earth from the moon [using the scientists figures] you would see the earth four times bigger in the sky than what we see the moon as. And if you calculate what is the shining surface area of the earth on the fullearth day then that will be I don’t know actually, we need a mathematician here. But I think it will be at least 10 times the area of the moon as seen on earth.
So you are looking at the earth as seen from the moon being at least ten times more reflective as the moon seen from earth and as well as being ten times more reflective it is also having about ten times more surface area to reflect off [according to my guess]
So there is no doubt that, if the Western idea was true, that the solar eclipses are caused by the moon, then at the time of the total eclipse the surface of the moon would have to be completely flooded with ‘earthshine’ and during the totality all the features of the moon would be clearly visible in front of the sun.
Now since I have revealed this many images are popping up on the internet showing the ‘earthshine on the moon’ during a solar eclipse… You can do wonderful things with photoshop.
So this is a great flaw in the Western idea. It actually proves that the solar eclipses are not caused by the moon but are caused by some dark planet that does not reflect the earthshine at all.
Anyhow that is my suspicion. It may not be correct. But the fact that the solar and lunar eclipses are caused by Rahu is correct. Because that knowledge we get from the Vedas. pasyate jnana sastra caksus ca.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
This article is hilarious. The distances to celestial objects are calculated by intricate methods of geometry and not just by random observation. The final figures have been tried and tested for over 2000 years, this is why science is amazing. Unlike you, who says that what’s written in the Vedas or in the Bhagvad Gita is a the absolute truth. Evidence, or gtfo.
Hare Krishna Juan
I understand how you feel. And I admit that for us, who have been conditioned from birth to believe in the universe as it is presented to us by science to consider anything ‘outside the box’ is very difficult. The box that has been built around us is very small and we are really convinced it is real and that there is nothing outside the box. But it is not real and there is something outside the box.
Actually so much of what we accept as fact is in reality not fact. And our understanding of the structure of the universe is one of these things. We just believe what the scientists tell us and have the faith in them that you exhibit in your posting. You say that “The distances to celestial objects are calculated by intricate methods of geometry” but of course you do not have any idea what these “intricate methods of geometry” actually are. And any geometry depends on making assumptions and if those base assumptions are wrong then the results of this geometry will also be wrong.
Just for the sake of the discussion I have done a little research on exactly how the distance from the earth to the moon was determined.
“Ancient Greek astronomers were able to make rough estimates of the distance to the Moon using information from eclipses to make geometric calculations.”
And to find out exactly how the Greeks did it you can read this lady’s description:
http://io9.com/5688939/how-to-measure-the-distance-from-the-earth-to-the-moon
So you will see that the only way the Greeks could make a guess at the distance between the earth and the moon was by noticing that during a Solar eclipse what appears to be the moon comes in front of the sun and almost exactly completely covers the sun. Of course, the do not know that what comes in front of the sun is Rahu, not the moon, but it is an understandable mistake. So they have created all this geometry which depends on what they already think they know. Which is the diameter of the earth and the distance from the earth to the sun. So using all this information which may not be correct, and making the mistaken assumption that it is the moon coming in front of the sun causing the solar eclipses with their geometry they have actually calculated the distance from the earth to rahu… Not the distance from the earth to the moon…
And we have just believe the Greeks… And fine-tuned their calculations using the same methods, only measuring everything more accurately, but still making the same mistake, assuming that it is the moon coming in front of the sun at the time of a solar eclipse.
So these figures were never “tried and tested” as you say. We just accept what the Greeks did, and we have repeated what the Greeks did with more accurate measurements. But we are using the same faulty method so we are still making the same mistakes as the mistakes the Greeks made.
You can not tell yourself what is the distance from the earth to the moon, nor can you calculate it, nor can anyone on earth calculate it. It is not possible. Space is in three dimensions. We can measure two of the dimensions for the position of the moon. We can measure the angle it is at around the 360 degrees of the zodiac and we can measure its elevation but the distance is unknown. And the size is unknown. The moon could be anywhere along that line of sight and we could speculate about the size of the moon at various distances because we could have some idea at a particular distance as to what size the moon would have to be to appear to us as it does. But there is absolutely no way we can tell what the distance of the moon is.
If it really was the moon coming in front of the sun during a solar eclipse then the Greeks may have had some idea. But it is not. It is Rahu… So they Greeks made a big mistake and we have simply accepted their mistake and now we believe their mistake to be the truth… But we are wrong.
Actually all the distances in space are unknown. They distances we ‘know’ are based on all sorts of faulty assumptions. It is a huge field. But I think you can understand that if the Astronomers base their “intricate methods of geometry” on faulty assumptions then the results are useless. So the calculation of the distance to the moon is based on the faulty assumption that it is the moon coming in front of the sun during a solar eclipse.
I know you may not agree with this but you have to agree that if it is actually Rahu, and not the moon, causing the solar eclipses, then the calculation of the Astronomers for the distance to the moon will not be the distance to the moon at all but will be the distance to Rahu…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Hare krishna Madhudvisa dasa, (I hope such words from someone like me won’t insult you)
I am afraid I will have to argue with your belief. First of all I would like to express that I have no problems with religions, although I am an “atheist”. I may even say I see the point of religion in some times in our history, or even in some areas in the world right now. Also I see, I hope my observations are correct, that you like to base your assumptions on some logical evidence – this is our meeting ground.
The problem begins when someone is using false evidence (faulty assumptions in your case) to support their cause. I hope such behaviour of yours was unintentional, otherwise our conversation might have ended right now.
Your faulty assumption follows: “And we have just believe the Greeks… And fine-tuned their calculations using the same methods, only measuring everything more accurately, but still making the same mistake, assuming that it is the moon coming in front of the sun at the time of a solar eclipse.” – and the evidence supporting such claim back and forth.
Actually the intricate geometrical methods can be substitued by something we use on a daily basis, yet it wasn’t known since around 1960’s. It is called a laser. A thingy that can produce a straight beam of light which actually (as we know) can bounce of things and go back to us. So we point the laser at the moon, we “fire” a short pulse, wait for the light pulse to go back, carefully meassuring the time. Then we divide the time we’ve gotten us by two (because we must not forget the light travelled TO the moon and right BACK at us).
Such time we multiply by the speed of light et voilà the result is between 363 295 km and 405 503 km. I am sorry to blow up your bubble, but the moon actually causes the Solar eclipse.
Although I may see your point of the whole unknown, yet we actually can meassure distances. And I will be back with a continuation.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
You have to do some research Sasa. Not just speak nonsense like this.
What you are proposing, firing a laser at the moon [a quarter of a million miles away] and expecting to get it reflected back to you [another quarter of a million miles] is not possible.
I know this from so much research. It is not like you say at all. If you get a laser and point it at the moon you will not be able to detect any ‘return’ as they call it, or reflection.
There is a place in Texas that I spent some nights with the deer and pig hunting ‘old boys’ that run it. It is at an observatory but they are in a trailer with a 12″ telescope which has a big green laser firing through it and it is very impressive. You see the big green laser firing up into the sky in pulses every few seconds. And in the same telescope they have a detector.
What they are trying to prove is that the NASA missions put mirrors on the moon. According to them if you fire a laser at the moon you will not get a reflection. But if you fire a laser at one of the 12″ x 12″ reflectors put on the moon by our Apollo astronauts then you will get a reflection.
So anyhow they disprove your theory. They point a huge laser at the moon and fire it and don’t get any reflection back except if they point it at very specific positions. And even those positions are not reliable. They work sometimes but they can go for months firing their laser at these locations and get no ‘returns’ whatsoever.
I could write thousands of pages about the faultiness of this experiment but who would care about that? Anyhow they prove your theory to be false. If you point a laser at the moon and fire it and even with the best equipment, telescopes, detectors, etc, you can not detect any reflection coming back.
They try to prove there are mirrors on the moon and they get reflections back from them because the project is paid for by NASA to prove this and if they do not prove this they will get their funding cut.
But the whole experiment is completely rigged. Anyhow they prove it conclusively that if you fire a laser at the moon you can’t get a reflection back. Except they say for the 3 or 4 places where there are supposed to be mirrors on the moon.
But honestly the laser beam spreads out, by the time it gets to the moon it is hundreds of miles across at least. Just imagine what a tiny amount of light from that laser actually falls on the 12″ x 12″ mirror… And then the tiny reflection from the mirror has spread out to cover over 100 miles by the time it gets back to earth. And your telescope is only 12″ in diameter… Realistically considering this and considering the light has to go through the earth’s atmosphere twice how much light are you really going to get reflected from the moon and entering your telescope and picked up on the detector.
And the real question is how are you going to tell if it is actually your light. The light you sent out and not some other light? The light is all the same… And even if it is your light how are you going to know it is not from one of the other pulses of the laser reflected from somewhere else between the earth and the moon?
They don’t just fire one pulse. The laser is constantly pulsing and the laser light is bouncing around everywhere. So there is no way for you to know where your light is actually coming from.
And this experiment does not work anyhow. If they keep the detecter open then they are just getting the light coming in all the time. So they cheat. They already know the exact distance to the moon so after they have sent a pulse at the exact moment when they know they should be getting a return from the moon they open the detector for a tiny microsecond and if there happens to be some light there at that exact moment they assume it is a ‘return’ from the mirror on the moon…
So they are cheating. If they could fire a laser and just wait and see a real return about 6 seconds or whatever later then that would be something. But this does not work. They can not do it.
So you have just believed a whole lot of nonsense and you don’t think things through. If you thought things through you would be able to understand how stupid what you are suggesting is. You are going to shine your little torch at the moon, 1/4 of a million miles away, by their calculation, and you are going to see your little torch reflected on the moon…
Dream away.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
If the moon were further away from us than the Sun, then we would not see the different lunar phases (crescent, quarter, and gibbous). If the Moon really orbited outside of an Earth-Sun system, it would always appear full or nearly full to us (similar to how the outer planets always appear as full disks). We would never have new or crescent moons.
Invoking Rahu won’t help here; you might be able to explain crescent moons with it, but not quarter or gibbous moons (unless Rahu can change its shape). Also, if Rahu is completely black, wouldn’t it blot out stars behind it? Wouldn’t we see a dark shape moving through the sky where the stars should be?
You mentioned “earthshine”; it’s visible at new moon and when the moon is a thin crescent, but outside of those times the earthshine is too dim to compete with the light reflected from the lunar surface. The brightest earthshine reflected back from the moon is simply too dim to see when compared with the solar corona.
Not to be disrespectful, but you cannot reject the findings of Western science just because it contradicts what you want to believe; we have measured the distance from the Earth to the moon using several different methods, from direct measurement through laser and radar ranging, to indrect measurements using trigonometry and geometry. We have observed its movements through the sky. And I know you consider them to be hoaxes, but we have sent a number of manned and unmanned missions to the moon, and not just the US; the Soviet Union managed to land a couple of probes there as well, and the Chinese are actively working on getting there. We have images of the Earth and Moon together as taken by probes circling Mars and Saturn.
These are not hoaxes; they are not fakes; too many people have put in too much effort to be fooled.
No, Western science doesn’t know everything, nor does it claim to; but there are things it does know very well, to the point where they may be considered facts. The distance from the Earth to the moon is one of them. And no ancient wisdom or holy scripture can change that fact.
Hare Krishna!
The principle here is that Western science depends on the limited information they can perceive through their material senses plus a huge amount of speculation to come up with theories to explain the things they do not have any actual real proof or evidence for.
This is true for all of science but it is particularly true for astronomy. From our vantage point on Earth all we can see is some spots of light moving about in the sky. Sure with the moon and the planets we can get a bit of detail even with our naked eyes and certainly with telescopes. But the stars are just spots of light in the sky.
As you say man has observed these celestial bodies moving in the sky since the beginning of time presumably. And thought the history of time man has come up with many explanations about what these celestial bodies are, how they are moving, and man has always had some concept of the universe and how he thinks it is working. That is of course our nature. We want to understand how the things around us are working.
But you know it well that the ideas, even 100 years ago, as to the workings of the universe were radically different from the ideas that modern science accepts as fact today. And if you go back 200 years the ideas were again radically different. And if you were go forward 100 years in time you will also find the ideas of celestial mechanics accepted by the people then are completely different from the ideas we accept as fact today.
So the real point is we have no idea at all about the structure and workings of the universe. Our vantage point here on Earth provides us with such and insignificant glimpse of such a grand machine. We can not see the machine that works the universe. So how can we hope to understand something we can not see and something that we have no conception of.
So this is the point. We have to realize that the information we have about the universe from modern science is not factual information at all. What modern, and ancient, science has given us is a very good predictive model of the universe. It means using the model they have constructed they can explain what we observe happening in the sky in a fairly plausible way. And using their model results in predictions that we actually see happening in the sky.
So what we can admit is that modern science has a good predictive model that fairly accurately predicts the things that we observe in the sky. That is all. We do not understand what is happening in the sky. We do not understand how things are moving in the universe. We can observe that the heavenly bodies are moving in certain orbits as you say, but we can not understand exactly how they are moving and why they are moving and who is causing them to move. They can mumble about gravity but this is not an explanation.
And the most important thing is that there is no reason the actual workings of the universe should be anything like the model we have imagined. We see simply a small part of the output of a system. Realistically one can not understand a very complex and intricate system simply by observing a small part of the output of that system. For example you may observe a computer screen displaying the output of a program and that may be a program that plays a video so you may be observing that video on the computer screen. Now if you only could see a small part of that screen, a few pixels… What could you understand? All you could say is that you see a few lights that are apparently randomly changing colors. You may be able to pick up some patterns. Like the person using the computer may only use it at certain times in the day. So you may observe this pattern. So then you create a predictive model and predict that the lights will only come on at this particular time every day. So you see it happening and get very excited and think you know what is happening.
But you can have no understanding that these few pixels form the part of a large moving picture which is being displayed on a computer screen. You can have no conception of the computer that is running a program to display the video, you can have no conception the video is coming from a plastic disk, a DVD, on which it is stored in digital format. You can not understand anything at all about the system. You can just see a few flashing colored lights and you get all puffed up and think you are so intelligent because you can predict with a certain degree of accuracy the times when these lights will start to flash and the time when they will stop flashing.
So modern science, particularly astronomy, is just like this. Yes. They may be able to predict some things about what is going on in the sky, but they can have no understanding actually of what is going on in the sky…
On the other hand, the Vedic knowledge is given by persons who can actually see the workings of the universe and who actually know what is going on and how it is working. So when they say that solar and lunar eclipses are caused by rahu coming in-between then we know it for a fact that is how solar and lunar eclipses are caused. The theory that solar eclipses are caused by the moon and that lunar eclipses are caused by the Earth’s shadow is a very reasonable sounding and logical and well thought out theory for sure. But we have to accept it is only a theory. We have no actual proof that it is the earth’s shadow causing the lunar eclipses. It really does very much look like it is the moon coming in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. That would be the logical conclusion one could very easily come to. As the moon and the sun do share the same point in the sky during a solar eclipse and if the moon was closer than the sun then it would of course come in front of the sun. But because the moon is further away than the sun it can not come in front of the sun. So The moon goes behind the sun and Rahu comes in front. It is a great deception for sure. A conjurers’ trick.
As far as your speculations in regard to how the phases of the moon work, again, our Western understanding is a very logical and very sound theory. But in reality the movements of the sun and the moon are quite different to the imagined movements by the Western scientists. No on is invoking Rahu to explain the phases of the moon. And the moon is not in the same position as the other planets as you suggest. The moon and the Sun are moving in a similar way around Manosottara mountain. If you were to draw a circle and just to simplify it put the moon and the sun on that same circle then consider that the sun will move around the entire circle in 365.25 days and the moon will move around the same circle in 28 days. So you can see that it is this relative position of the sun in relation to the moon that creates the phases of the moon as we observe them from the earth.
As we see the sun and the moon move in the sky in the same way, it is not unreasonable to consider that the sun and the moon and similarly situated. We understand that the earth is relatively stationary and the sun and the moon are moving around the earth and it is this different speed of the movement of the sun and the moon that creates the phases of the moon as we observe them from the earth.
Now I do not claim that I fully understand this. I do not. And like you, I am much more comfortable with the explanation that science has given us. It makes sense to us because that is the way we have been brainwashed. This whole “world-view” that we all share is based on this idea of a tiny blue planet spinning around in space orbiting the sun. This idea has been so drummed into us that it is virtually part of our identity. So it is very difficult for us to question something that we so fundamentally believe that we know to be a fact. However, we, the followers of the Vedic literature, know for a fact that the sun is moving around the earth, the moon is moving around the earth and the earth is relatively stationary. So we know that the current world-view as to how the universe is working is completely wrong. We may not be able to completely conceive of all the details as to how it is actually working. But we do know that the ideas of science and the astronomers are very fundamentally wrong.
Now we are talking about three dimensional space here and when we say the moon is above the sun we are talking about the height above a plane. Earth is in the center of that plane. The moon and the sun are both rotating around the center of that plane and the sun is lower and the moon is higher. Now so far this is factual. And it is also factual that the distance from the center to the sun and the distance from the center to the moon is different.
At this point in time I do not know for absolute certain what those distances are but I assume the moon is much closer to the center but higher and the sun is far out but lower. So in fact the actual distance between the sun and the earth may be greater than the actual distance between the earth and the moon. But the moon is higher, by 1,600,000 miles, than the moon.
And there is yet another factor in the equation. There is a huge golden cone shaped mountain in the center of the plane. It has its point down and the wide base up in the sky. Now you have to remember here that shiny gold is a reflector, a mirror. So now the universe becomes a lot more confusing indeed. Because some of what we see in the sky may well be reflections in this huge golden mirror. But not only is this gold mountain a mirror, it is a solid object and when the moon is on one side and the sun is on the other side it is capable of blocking the light from the sun to the moon. So this may well also play a part in the phases of the moon. The no moon day happens when the sun and the moon are diametrically opposed. So in this position Mt Meru [the cone-shaped upside down golden mountain] is right in the middle between the sun and the moon and therefore the sun’s light will be completely blocked and will not reach the moon at all. And then as soon as the sun and moon get out of this diametrically opposed condition the sun’s light will start hitting the moon again.
So the point is that the more deeply one goes into the Vedic description of the universe the more one finds that the Vedic universe is also a predictive model. And strange as it may seem to us, the Vedic model does accurately predict what we see happening in the sky around us.
But we know that the Vedic model is not actually a model. It is a factual description of the systems which are actually in play in the workings of the universe.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
I teach Astronomy in CSUN. I consider these type of work counterproductive to Prabhupad teachings. We should focus on teachings of Srimad Bhagabat Gita, rather than superfluous science. Sorry for these negative comments, but being a Goudya Vaishnab myself, I could not resist.
Hare Krishna
The problem is that we and the Astronomers have been brainwashed from babyhood with a certain conception of the universe and how it works, this theory has been presented to us as if it was a fact, but actually the current understanding of the universe and our position in it is not at all a fact. It is a theory. And we know, as Gaudiya Vaisnavas, that the currently accepted view of the universe is so totally wrong in so many ways.
So it is very important that we establish the fact that the astronomers with their little telescopes are nothing more than frogs in a well and have no hope of understanding the universe. Because we can not see the universe. We know from reading the Vedic literature that we can hardly see anything at all in the universe. If you can not see a machine, if you can only see one tiny part of a big complex machine, then you have no way of conceiving of the machine in its totality nor do you have any way of ever understanding how it works.
So it is like that with the Astronomers and the universe. They can not see the workings of the universe. They can see only some very small peripheral displays. So it is never possible for them to understand the system. They have no access to the system. Thay can no see the system, they can not perform any experiments on the system. The only way they can understand the system is to hear about it from someone who knows. Like Srila Vyasadeva for example in the Vedic literature… That is our point and we must establish this point.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
I would like to start modelling a structure according to map 1. A few questions follow
1.Am I right that Jambudvipa is at the bottom and Sumeru mountain is inverted with its tip a Jambudvipa?
2. What are the relative positons of Mount Sumeru and Mt Manosattara, where exactly is the base of Manosattara.
3. I saw the video about the universe which you have given above. Till what extent is it correct and what are the mistakes in it….
The task is very challenging and we are totally dependent on Prabhupada’s mercy.
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Hare Krishna. AGTSP
Hare Krishna Divine
Yes. You can not make a model of something until you understand it. That is the problem.
So you need to read it again and again and chant Hare Krishna until you understand it.
I think you have not got a clear idea yet. So you need a clear idea before you can model it…
It is a long time since I read it so right now my idea also is not so clear.
The model in the video is not really correct. Some aspects are there, but the people who made that also do not understand it. So without understanding it first you can not build the model. That is the point.
If you want to build something first you have to have the very clear idea of what you want to build. You have to understand all the points.
So all the points are very nicely explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. We just have to hear it and chant Hare Krishna and depend on Srila Prabhupada and Krishna so the knowledge is revealed within our hearts and we can understand it.
That is the way. So you will not be able to make a model until you understand the ideas first.
I will study this again some time hopefully not too far into the future.
But these questions you are asking are very basic and are clearly explained in the Fifth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. So if you do not yet have these very basic points clear you need to read it again. And then I am sure these and many other points will become much clearer to you.
So as you discover how the things work please let me know. I am very interested in your progress on this. I want also very much to study this and work on this but for the next few months at least my time is totally taken up by another urgent project… But I am very anxious to hear your discoveries as you make them. You will make the discoveries by reading the Srimad-Bhagavatam over and over again and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra at least 16 rounds a day and strictly following the four regulative principles. If you do these things very sincerely it will become very clear to you and you will be able to make the model and that will be a great service to Srila Prabhupada and the devotees.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Chant Hare
By Srila Prabhupada’s Krishna’s mercy gradually some parts of the mysteries of the universe are gradually getting revealed. For example I could just not understand how the sun could move both in the clockwise and anticlockwise directions at the same time. After reading the crystal clear purports, I understood that the sun is moving along with the kala cakra in the clockwise direction and completing one revolution a day. Now, assuming the Kala Cakra to be stationary, the sun is moving in the anticlockwise direction, travelling through one zodiac in one month. SO the actual movement of the sun is a combination of movement due to Kala Cakra and its own relative motion w.r.t Kala Cakra in opposite direction……………
Now I have one problem. I have never done animation before and now although I am learning blender from a tutorial(Noob to pro) I am as of now still finding it difficult to do even simple animations. I really wonder whether I would ever be able to animate such a complex system. So shall I continue with my animation and pray Krishna to give me the strength to do it or shall I stop it? I would do exactly as you say.
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Hare Krishna. AGTVMSP(All glories to very merciful Srila Prabhupad)
Hare Krishna Divine
Yes. You have got a nice realization about how the sun is moving with the kala-chakra [wheel of time] and at the same time it has its own opposite movement within the kala chakra. The moon and the planets are the same. An example to explain the is ants walking on a potter’s wheel. The potter’s wheel is spinning but if there are some ants walking on the wheel they are also spinning with the wheel but we will see they are moving around and at different times they are seen in different places on the wheel. In this way the sun, moon and planets move with the kala-chakra but are seen in different signs of the zodiac at different times.
Of course kala-chakra is not stationary, it is rotating one revolution every 24 hours.
The way to tackle any big complex task is to break it down into many small simple tasks. And just do one small simple task at a time and put them all together to build the big complex system. So nothing is actually big and complex if you can analyze it and break it down into many small simple tasks.
Everything seems overwhelming at the beginning and computer animation is also not easy, but at the same time it is not impossible and so many people have learned how to do it and you can also learn how to do it if you want to but you will have to spend a lot of time and energy to learn it. But if you want to learn it you can.
I can not tell you exactly what you should do. I do not know you, I do not know your skills and abilities, etc. So it is up to you to chant Hare Krishna, read Srila Prabhupada’s books and try to understand what it is that Srila Prabhupada and Krishna want you to do. That is the important thing. It does not matter what we want to do. We should do what Krishna wants us to do.
I do not think you will be able to actually build this model of the universe until you have a clear understanding of how it works, how it is situated. But building a model of what you read in the Bhagavatam may be helpful for you to understand how it works. So I think it is a good idea and you have already invested quite a bit of time and energy in trying to learn this blender so maybe you should continue with it for some time. There is some point with these things when it ‘clicks’ and becomes much clearer to you and easier for you to use these programs. But it is quite normal to feel like it is very complicated and you may never be able to understand it in the beginning. But if you preserver with it and if you have a real project. If you try to model something simple at first, some small part of the universe, not the whole thing all at once, and just build on it, add to it, as you go on it will become much easier.
So I think really you should pray to Krishna to please give you the inspiration about what He wants you to do and when He does do what He wants you to do.
In the meantime I would not give up on blender yet. Just try a bit more and see if it becomes clearer to you.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
A few doubts……………..
1. As far a I understood, sun revolves around Sumeru on manasottara at a distance of 157.5 lakh yojanas from sumeru. But everyday we feel as if the sun is directly overhead us. And also if we go to a beach we can see the sun touching the horizon. Whereas as far I know, I have never seen the moon or any other star touching horizon.Maybe I am incorrect. Anyway, could you put some light on the sun’s vertical movement(which makes it appear to rise and set and overhead us)
2.It is given that the sun divides the sky into two ayanas. Northern course is uttarayana and Southern course is Dakshinaya. Is is fair to assume that the Northern , southern hemispheres and equator we are taking about is moving along with the kala cakra. And what is an ayana ?
3. In a letter to Madhava on 1976 3rd October,””Some portion of the earth is flat. When you stand in any place you see flat, so for us to some extent it appears flat, but it is round.””. Also we have seen the picture of Varaha carrying a round earth. But from SB, we know that Jambudvipa is round like a lotus leaf. So where exactly does Earth become a sphere?
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Hare Krishna.AGTSP
Hare Krishna Divine
1. The moon and the stars, everything rises and sets exactly the same way the sun rises and sets. On the no moon day the moon and the sun are rising and setting at the same time. So you can not see the moon. It rises with the sun and sets with the sun. And on the full moon day as the sun sets in the West you will see the moon rising in the East. So you will see it if you look for it. On the full moon day, as the sun sets the moon will rise in the east just like the sun rises in the east in the morning.
The stars, planets, everything, they all do this. They rise in the East and set in the West, just like the sun does.
It is the kala-chakra, the wheel of time. Everything is moving on this wheel of time together but the planets, the sun and the moon they have a separate movement and they are seen in different signs of the zodiac at different times. But the stars always remain in the same relative positions. They only move with the wheel of time, they are fixed in their relative positions.
There is nothing different from the suns vertical movement to the moon and the stars. They are all doing the same thing as the sun. You just have not noticed it.
I think the way the movements of the sun work, you need to imagine the system, it is a bit difficult to conceive. If you imagine a rod on Manosattora Mountain that turns around once every 24 hours and it has two axles. One going in towards the center and then at some point there is a pivot that joins it to another axle. The sizes are given. The second axle is shorter, maybe 1/4 the length of the first, I do not know, you have to look it up. Then that second axle is joined to the Polestar by a ‘rope of wind’ I think. So what I imagine is you have this axle that is coming down from the polestar [which is directly above Sumuru Mountain that is in the middle of Bhu-mandala] at an angle and then joining the second axle by a pivot and that longer second axle is going all the way out to Mansottara mountain. And it is being pulled around by the chariot of the sun god. So it is the power of the chariot of the sun god that is turning this whole kala-chakra, wheel of time, sisumara-chakra, whatever you want to call it, and the whole thing is rotating once every 24 hours. And at the same time in 12 months that axle on Manosattra mountain will move all the way around, 360 degrees, in one year. So that is how the seasons change. That is how the sun moves on a daily basis.
Now if you can imagine the wheel of time, the sisumara-chakra. It is a three dimensional, not two dimensional thing. It is described in the Bhagavatam like a dolphin swimming in the sky. I do not know. Perhaps with its nose down. You have to check. And all the stars, etc, are fixed on certain places on the body of the dolphin. Now this is not actually a dolphin, this is just trying to explain the concept that there is a huge three dimensional structure that rotates 360 degrees in this up and down way every 24 hours and everything we see in the sky is moving with this structure. But we are not moving.
So the sun is moving up and down with this huge thing. 360 degrees in 24 hours. And the whole structure is moving around Manosattra mountain 360 degrees in one year. So there are two simultaneous movements. The daily movement and the yearly movement. And it is the daily rotation of that axle on Manosottara mountain that inches the whole thing gradually around the mountain.
So it depends where it is on Manosattra mountain that what angle and where the second axle coming down from the polestar is pointing.
What I imagine is happening is what is causing day and night for us on Jabhudvipa is the shadow of Sumuru Mountain. I can not imagine anything else that could cause a day and night 24 hour cycle like we experience. So the sun is actually rotating with this wheel, more-or-less over the equator. But sometimes on the north side and sometimes on the south side.
It is very hard to explain and I do not know if you are getting all this. But if you imagine a big wheel joined to this second axle coming down from the polestar. That axle is at an angle so the wheel will not be straight. One side will be down and the other side will be up. And the sun is moving on that wheel. Going round once every 24 hours. So it will be summer at the lowest point of the wheel and winter at the highest point of the wheel. Now I am not sure about this. I am just giving you some idea to think about. So if this was the case it would be day and summer when the sun comes to the lower side of the wheel and the shadow of Sumuru mountain would stop the light from going to the other side and then when the sun comes over to the other side that would be higher up so it would be winter. But anyhow I think then the shadow of Sumuru mountain would be causing night on the other side.
These 24 hour days are really only experienced here on Jambhudvipa. On the top of Sumuru Mountain and out on all the other islands where the demigods live they get days of 6 months and nights of 6 months. So they get their day and night only from the rotation of the sun around Sumuru mountain. And I imagine they can see this interesting 24 hour rotation of everything in the sky during their 6 month days. I do not know.
I think you have to build the model using all the details from the Bhagavatam and see how it comes out.
I am not sure of the fine details but I am sure that the basic ideas are something like this…
2. When it is talking about the course of the sun that is talking about the 12 month rotation around Manosattara mountain. You have to think on a bigger scale. Not just the earth, but the whole universe. The sun is not just our sun. It is the sun for the universe. Everything you have learned is completely wrong… It is hard to understand exactly what it means and where is North and South in regard to our ideas of North and South. As I have said many times I do not understand it myself so I can not tell you really exactly the things. I can give you my thoughts and realizations on it. But it is not sastra. But we have to think about the ideas and hopefully it will all click into place at some time by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna.
I do not know what is an ayana, I would have to read it again and look it up, I have not read it for ten years properly. But you can find out by reading the book. It is in the book.
We are not moving. We are stationary. That is a fact. That we can say for sure. That is because all the movements we attribute to the movement of the earth are explained in the Bhagavatam as the movements of the kala-chakra and the movements of the sun, moon and planets. The two movements we have discussed, the 24 hour rotation and the one year rotation and the angles of the second axle, all this very nicely explains what we think is the movement of the earth in a different way.
Relatively speaking it is the same thing. What is happening effectively is the universe is moving around the earth. It is not the earth rotating. We can not tell the difference because the relative movement is the same. Maybe you have been sitting in a train with another train beside you. If you are looking out the window and see the other train start to move sometimes it feels like you are moving. So it is like that. We think the earth is moving but actually the things are moving around the earth. The earth is Jambhudvipa and that is the central island surrounded by the salt water ocean and that is stationary… I know it sounds to crazy. But it must be true. Because we are inside the system and because the movements are relative there is no way we can tell which is moving. The relative motion is the same if the earth is rotating or if the universe is rotating around the earth. From inside the system we can not know which it is. But of course the authors of the Bhagavatam have the advantage of being able to see the universe from a different perspective to us…
Round and sphere are two different things. That picture of Varaha carrying the blue planet earth that we have come to know and love may not be actually the way it is. Sometimes you just have to go along with these things a bit. But the actual situation appears to be different if we read the Bhagavatam.
I don’t think anyone in ISKCON or outside of ISKCON either has really got the grasp of what the Bhagavatam is saying about the universe. This bhu-mandala planetary system is described as being lotus-like. But I have never seen anyone draw it like a lotus…
The earth must be that central island surrounded by the salt water ocean. You really have to read the whole Bhagavatam, not just the Fifth Canto. Important information about this is spread all the way through the Bhagavatam. Originally there was a central island Jambhudvipa. But then there was this person who dug it up looking for his horse… So now Jambhudvipa is not a single round island any more. It has been dug up and I presume that is how we got these different continents. etc. I don’t know if you have seen it but all the continents fit together fairly well so it does appear that originally it was one land mass that has broken up into different continents over time. So it would be easy to imagine it was originally a round island surrounded by a salt water ocean. It still is, more-or-less, but it is dug up a bit now.
So certainly we can describe the earth as round. But really it is hard to see how it is a sphere from the description of the Bhagavatam. You know there are seven levels of planetary systems below the earth. So the idea is given like that. It is not described like a sphere.
Sometimes Srila Prabhupada talks about the planets as islands in space. So maybe we could see it in that way. But you know it does not seem right to me.
But whatever we say would have to be reasonable and possible. If this is actually true then it means that the space exploration they tell us about is lies. The problem is there is no clear information from these people and you do not know if they are telling the truth or not. If they could really show us the pictures of the earth from space or if we can fly out and look back and see it then really we have to accept it is they way it is. But we can not fly out. There has been no maned space flights more than about 200 miles up since the Apollo moon landings in the 60’s and 70’s. That is widely accepted as faked. It is impossible. They did not go to the moon then. Otherwise, if they went to the moon then, then we would have kept going and would have developed the technology and by now, 50 years later, flying to the moon would be a routine thing at least for scientific and exploratory purposes. But now we can not go to the moon. No country can go to the moon. At least not send men there. And even their landers and so on look very questionable. China faked their space walk even, you could see bubbles, they did it in a tank of water. And they probably faked their Changi-1 ‘rabbit’ lunar lander. The problem is since the USA got away with faking the moon landings other countries think they can also get away with faking space exploration.
So with all this faking it is hard to believe anything the scientists say… It is really difficult. If you could get real clear information from these people it would make things much easier. Of course what we experience with our senses is always imperfect and we can not trust it. So we have to accept the sastras as our eyes. So we accept the vision of the Bhagavatam for sure. We do not care for what the scientists say, etc. But Prabhupada’s idea with the Vedic Planetarium, etc, is to convince the scientists. So if we are to do that then we have to understand the model of the universe in the Bhagavatam and build an actual working model.
So my idea is that we should basically forget everything that we have been taught about the earth and the universe. Forget about the earth being a sphere and forget about the earth rotating and orbiting the sun, etc, etc, etc. If we are to accept the Bhagavatam it seems all these ideas are wrong. So I think, for this exercise, we have to put all the ideas and theories of modern science out of our minds and just try and understand the model the Bhagavatam is presenting and try to build it as it is described in the Bhagavatam.
And as far as I can see the earth is either the whole Jambhudvipa or perhaps just a small part of Jambhudvipa. I thing it is fairly clear that things are nothing like what we think they are like. And we just have to be prepared to explore the unknown…
It is very hard for us to consider that the earth may not be a sphere but I suspect there is a good chance the earth is not a sphere… It is round. But that does not mean it is a sphere…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
A few more questions……….
1.It is given that lunar year is 6 days short of calender year and solar calender is 6 days more than calender year. Is is correct that: lunar year: 354 days and solar year 366 days.
2.An eclipse occurs during a full moon or a new moon. Is it correct to say that during solar ecclipse both moon and sun are in the same zodiac whereas during lunar ecclipse they are in opposite zodiacs?
3.From the sun’s movement we know that longest day is the first day when sun enters Cancer. We also know that during the Northern course of sun duration of daytime increases by half an hour each month. Using these calculations, I found that the longest day has a duration of 13.5 hours and shortest day has a duration of 10.5 hours. However I think there are someplaces on Earth which on certain days have 24 hours daytime. How do we explain that?
4. The moon in one day travels distance travelled by the sun in 1 fortnight. In 2.25 days it travels the distance travelled by the sun in one month, Somewhere else in the purports it is given that according to stellar calculations, one month of the sun is equal to 2.25 constellation. It is also given that the moon travels through a distance of one constellation in one day. SO everthing matches…….. but how day does one month of sun have? And what is the relation between one day of sun and one day of moon??
5. Is Rahu bigger than the moon because it is given that Rahu is 30000 yojanas big wheras moon is 20000 yoj(sun 10000)
6.Am I correct in saying that the Bhu mandala plane blocks light to subterrenean heavenly planets i.e. only eveything above Bhu(bhuvar and svah) including bhu receive sunlight?
Sorry for harassing you.
Hare Krishna.AGTSP.
Hare Krishna Divine
As you know I am rusty on these things. You are reading it fresh so you probably have a better idea than me. But I will try and answer with my rusty brain…
1. I do not know about this. I am not an astrologer or an astronomer. A solar year is obviously the time it takes the sun to through all the signs of the zodiac and come back to the same place again. And that is 365 and a quarter according to the modern scientists. [they have 365 days in most years and every forth year they add another day in February to make it 366 in the leap year]. But I do not know what a Lunar year is. The moon moves around the earth in the same way the sun does in a year in a month. So I have no idea really what a lunar year would be…
2. Solar eclipses occur when there is no moon and lunar eclipses occur on full moons. They never occur at any other time. So yes. During the solar eclipse both the moon and the sun are in the same position in the zodiac. And during a lunar eclipse they are in the opposite zodiac. That is correct.
3. The variation between the length of the day and night is different depending on what position you are in. If you are on the equator then the day and night are always equal. There is no difference in the length of the day and night. If you are right on the North Pole or right on the South Pole then you get darkness for six months and light for six months. The closer you are to the equator the less difference you have between the longest day and the shortest day. And the closer you are to the North or South pole the greater the difference between the shortest and longest days. So your calculation would only be correct for a circle around the earth at a certain distance north and south of the equator. So it would be correct only on these two rings parallel to the equator and nowhere else.
4. I am not exactly sure what you are asking here. But one day on the moon is about 14 days. You know. We see the moon going from full moon to completely dark. The moon is strange. It always has the same side facing the earth. So we never get to see the other side of the moon. But you can see what is happening on the moon in regard to day and night. You can look at the moon and see a particular spot and see if it is day or night. So the day on the moon must be about 14 days and the night must be about 14 days?
5. Yes. If they are the distances given then it must be. We know for sure that the sun is first then the moon is further away than the sun. That is a very radical point. But this is clearly stated in the Bhagavatam. So our Western ideas in this regard are completely wrong.
One thing is it is Rahu who comes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. So we can see the size of Rahu. It almost perfectly covers the sun exactly. So obviously Rahu must be closer than the sun and it is also Rahu presumably who blocks the light from the sun from hitting the moon and causes these lunar eclipses. A lunar eclipse is totally different from a solar eclipse. In a solar eclipse we see there is a solid body coming in front of the sun and blocking it out. But in a lunar eclipse there is not a solid body coming between the moon and the earth. It is something blocking the light between the sun and the moon. So that is Rahu. So in a lunar eclipse you can still see the moon but it becomes much darker and often red. There is not something coming in front of the moon like in a solar eclipse.
It is confusing. Srila Prabhupada says: “Rahu planet orbit is in between moon and sun. So when it comes in between moon and sun there is eclipse. At night it is eclipse in the moon, and daytime it is eclipse in the sun.” So that would make the order sun – rahu – moon. But then Rahu could never come in front of the sun?
But then later Srila Prabhupada says: “Rahu, yes. Rahu is between earth and sun. Moon is above sun.” So this I think has to be correct. This is the only way that Rahu could come in front of the sun. It has to be closer to us than the sun.
So if we take this idea that the sun is first then the moon then if Rahu is causing the solar and lunar eclipses Rahu obviously has to be between the earth and the sun. Because Rahu comes in front of the sun and blocks it out. And presumably it is sharing the same position in the sky as the moon, but the moon is actually behind the sun and rahu is in front of the sun. So that is how the Western astronomers have mistaken the moon to be the cause of the lunar eclipses. That is what appears to be happening. At that time all three heavenly bodies [sun, moon and rahu] are all in the same point of the sky but are at different distances from earth. And we know the order. That is Rahu, Sun, Moon. And we also know that all three appear to be the same size, or very close to the same size. So it would have to mean that the closer they are to the earth the smaller they are. Or the further away from the earth they are the larger they are. So that would make Rahu the smallest, then the sun would be bigger and the moon bigger still. So I can understand how the sun could be 10000 and the moon could be 20000. The moon would have to be bigger then the sun if it is further away than the sun. But Rahu has to be closer to the earth than the sun if it is going to be able to come in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. And we see Rahu coming in front of the sun at a solar eclipse. And it appears to be the same size as the sun in the sky. But obviously it is closer than the sun because it is coming between the sun and us. So it would seem to me that Rahu would have to be smaller than the sun?
So I do not know how we can say that it is Rahu coming in front of the sun causing the solar eclipse and then say Rahu is bigger than the sun. When we see the thing coming in front of the sun is appearing to us to be the same size as the sun in the sky?
Maybe you have it wrong or maybe there is something we do not understand here? I think the sizes should be Rahu smallest then the sun bigger and then the moon biggest… But of course we have to find the thing from the Bhagavatam, not from what I think. Maybe I am missing something?
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
It took me quite some to comprehend what you had said but I think I have finally got atleast something .Infact one of my friends, a good artist, is drawing a picture of kala chakra, sisumara etc and once it is done I would like to scan and upload the picture so that you can tell me whether I have got the right idea.
Meanwhile I have a few questions
1. Suppose, we flatten our spherical Earth and consider it to be Jambudvipa. Then is it right to consider that when it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere, the Kala chakra is tilted more and when it is summer in the southern hemisphere the kala cakra is tilted less?
2. I came across a website
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast161/Unit2/seasons.html
Everthing is utter nonsense except a small part under the headings equinox, summer solstice, winter solstice. Assuming it to be purely based on observation, would it be fair to assume that when the sun is on the upper part of the tilted kala cakra it moves slower and the part below it is experiencing summer and when on the lower part of the kala cakra it is moving faster and the part below it experiencing winter???Or is it the other way round?
3. As far as the size of Rahu is concerned from SB 5.24.2 I crosschecked and found that the size of Rahu to be 30000. But there is no doubt that Rahu causes the eclipse. So what could be the possible explanation?
4. What phenomenon does the internal movement of the sun cause(i.e in the direction opposite to that of Kala cakra)?
As far as Earth is flat and not a sphere even I am convinced of it. Infact every argument of the scientist has a suitable counter argument.(my argument in bracket)
1.The earth throws a circular shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse.(Rahu not Earth)
2.It is possible to circumnavigate the world; that is, to travel around the world and return to where you started( That could be done even if Earth were a circle)
Infact all other phenomenon could be explained using movement of kala cakra, samvartaka wheel and sumeru mountain. Infact wikipedia gives the last proof of a spherical Earth as “The earth appears as a disc on photographs taken from space, regardless of the vantage point”(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Summary_of_evidence_for_a_spherical_earth)
Also in another article it has been speculated by some flat earth society that the Earth is exactly as you have described. The image is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#/media/File:Flat_earth.png
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Hare Krishna. AGTSP
Hare Krishna Divine
As I said to you in the beginning I do not understand the Bhagavatam description of the universe. So there is really no point in asking me about it because I don’t understand it. I can speculate about it, this and that, but that is not the process of Krishna consciousness. Krishna consciousness means hearing from the guru, sadhu and sastra and repeating that.
The idea is to build the model based on the information in the Bhagavatam and see what that reveals to you. I have never actually done this so I do not know.
I can say this and that about the Vedic ideas of the universe but with my current level of realization about it is all just useless speculation.
The reality is the scientists ideas, although we do not believe them, give a very good description of what we observe in relation to the earth, stars, sun, moon, planets, etc.
They have satelites at around 20,000 miles away from the earth and they can and do constantly take photographs of the whole earth disk for weather forecasting. You can check out this website for satellite pictures of the earth updated every 3 hours:
http://www.goes.noaa.gov/f_mtsat.html
So you have to understand that I do not understand this and there is no point asking me because I do not understand it.
It requires Krishna consciousness and realization. Krishna will have to reveal it to us. He has not revealed it to me yet.
Srila Prabhupada said if we keep reading the Bhagavatam and chanting Hare Krishna then Krishna will give us the intelligence to understand it. But so far I do not understand it.
And it is better if you read the Bhagavatam yourself and understand it yourself from the Bhagavatam. Then there is some hope you may come up with something.
The ideas I have mentioned are all ultimately faulty and do not work really when you try to work out all the details.
One day I hope to have the time to properly study this and if Krishna wants He can give some realization of it and if Krishna doesn’t want then He won’t. We are not independent. We are all completely dependent on Krishna. So I have registered my interest in this subject of the structure of the universe but have not had the time to seriously study it. So currently I do not understand it.
Yes. The idea of a ‘flat earth’ has been around for a long time but I think not many really believe in this now. But that is how it apparently appears to be described in the Bhagavatam.
So, as I said, you are the one currently studying the Fifth Canto, so you have to get the realizations from there and write to me with what you have discovered.
Generally if anyone asks me a question on practically everything I can give perfect answers by repeating what I have heard and realized from Srila Prabhupada and Krishna. But in the case of the structure of the universe I have heard it but not realized it. So I can not answer the questions unfortunately. I am still looking for those answers myself. So if you come across some of the answers please let me know!
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Hare Krishna Divine
I completely accept everything that is written in Srimad-Bhagavatam as the true and accurate description of everything including of this universe.
I am convinced that we, under the guidance of the modern science, are completely bewildered and misdirected about the true nature of the universe, this earth plant and even the sun-moon-earth system. Our modern knowledge is all wrong. I know that.
But my problem is that as devotees we do not really care very much about the material world. Our interest is not in the material world. Our interest is in the spiritual world with Krishna. So it really does not matter much to us the fine details of how the material world is working. We have no real interest in it. We want to get out of the material world and go back home, back to Godhead.
However it is Srila Prabhupada’s vision that we should build this Vedic Planetarium and it is Srila Prabhupada’s plan that this practical demonstration of the workings of the universe as they are revealed to us in the Srimad-Bhagavatam will attract the minds of all the intelligent people of the world. So this is really a preaching tool. Srila Prabhupada wants us to build this Vedic Planetarium to convince the thoughtful people in the world that science is completely wrong in regard to the structure and workings of the universe and the correct information is given in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. This of course will be a huge advertisment for Srimad-Bhagavatam and will greatly increase the sales of Srila Prabhupada’s books and that is the main point.
But as I have said at this point in time I do not understand this Vedic concept of the universe well enough to present it in such a way that it would be appreciated by modern science. We have to be able to understand it and present it in such a way that it is reasonable to the minds of at least a percentage of the Western scientists…
I do believe there is great value in building a model of the system that is described in the Bhagavatam. No one has been able to do it in the past because practically everyone who is born and indoctrinated on this planet can not give up the world-vied that has been hammered into their heads since birth. But if someone could just actually make a model of what is written in the Bhagavatam without considering trying to make it match with what we currently understand then that may reveal some very important information…
You may find the United Nations logo interesting:
http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/flag.htm
So let me know what you think and how you are progressing on this.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
PLATE TWO
“While so excellently ruling the universe, King Priyavrata once became dissatisfied with the circumambulation of the most powerful sun-god. In circling Sumeru Hill on his chariot, the sun-god illuminates all the surrounding planetary systems. However, when the sun is on the northern side of the hill, the south receives less light, and when the sun is in the south, the north receives less. King Priyavrata disliked this situation and therefore decided to make daylight in the part of the universe where there was night. He followed the orbit of the sun-god on a brilliant chariot and thus fulfilled his desire. He could perform such wonderful activities because of the power he had achieved by worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (p. 57, Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.1)
For me only flat earth model truly fits the Vedic description of this brahmand which is a finite universe very well designed with a specific purpose. NASA’s cosmology with unlimited dark space full of some supernovas and black holes makes no sense as why would we run through that vast space aimlessly??? Also round earth makes no sense and we can NOT see any curvature anywhere ….All ancient cultures believed that the earth is flat enclosed system. …. I’ve come across amazing arguments pro flat earth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5aB6oThGK8&index=1&list=PLemLiaYby3HzuKYIg0YnmrwccqtQfTOjI plus https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zetetic-Flat-Earth/812852995431891?fref=ts&ref=br_tf plus https://www.facebook.com/theflatearthconspiracy?fref=ts plus http://aplanetruth.info/ plus http://www.waykiwayki.com/ plus http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/01/water-proves-earth-flat.html Hare Krishna!
Hare Krishna Gopika
The flat-earth model is not correct. The Vedic description is correct. The flat-earth model is another instance of man speculating to try to understand the structure of the universe. So the flat-earth people have no better ability to understand the structure of the universe than NASA or the other Western scientists.
It is an interesting presentation, the flat earth model, and it does illustrate the point that what we observe around us can be explained in other ways. The flat earth model does a good job of explaining a lot of what we experience. But it does not convincingly explain everything nearly as well as the globe-earth model that has become very well developed by modern science.
But the Vedic model can explain everything much better than the globe-earth model.
What we are talking about with these man-made models are predictive modes. They are theories that predict what we observe in the universe. So the current Western model of the earth-moon-sun system for example has a good degree of accuracy in regard to predicting what we observe happening in the sky. So people accept this because there is no better explanation of what we see happening and this explanation is fairly good. But it is just a theory and may not actually reflect what is really happening. The actual system, how the universe works, may be completely different from this theory. And that is what we assert.
So we do not accept the flat-earth theory either. That is another imperfect man-made speculation. But it is instructive because it points out that the things we see in the universe can be explained using models that are completely different from what we currently accept. So it does bring into question the validity of the current model.
So I will look at the links you provided when I have time and comment some more later perhaps.
I think it would be better to say that all ancient cultures concepts of the earth and the universe match the Vedic knowledge. The Vedic description in the Bhagavatam is the correct description. Both the flat-earth and the globe-earth models are built out of imperfect mental speculation and will not be correct.
The problem is for us it is very difficult to understand actually what is being described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam in relation to the structure of the universe. So we have to concentrate on understanding it and not become diverted into accepting another imperfect man-made theory based on mental speculation like the flat earth theory.
But it is certainly interesting and I will look into it more when time permits.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
I think that by Srila Prabhupada’s and Krishna’s mercy, I have got a fairly good idea of how the universe is working. In this comment, I would like to limit my discussion to Jambudvipa, sun and the moon…………………………….
In the 9th canto, it is given that the upper part of the universe is North and the lower part of the universe is South. So from this I got a clue of what the Northern and southern course of the sun is.
Now let us consider the sun which is 1 lakh yojanas above Jambudvipa. Every day the sun completes one revolution around the sumeru mountain i.e.on the Manasottara mountain. This causes
the day and night at every place( of course the sumeru mountain plays an important role in causing night). But it is the internal motion of the sun which causes most of the other phenomenon. Now for the sake of understanding let us assume that the kala cakra is made stationary. At some point(i.e at the intersection of Saggitauras and capricon) it is at its lowest point( longest night). From that point it starts going upwards and thus its Northern course starts. At this point in the upper heavenly planets, night is almost over and sunrise starts. Now it is to be noted here that the internal motion of the sun is not only vertical. While moving upwards, it also moves starts moving horizontally from one zodiac sign to another.(now here I am taking the kala cakra to be horizontal). In the beginning of its northeen course, the horizontal movement is responsible for the sum moving into saggitaurus.
So the sun’s internal/own movement consist of both horizontal movement( in the anticlockwise direction) and obviously the vertical movement. Withing 3 months it would have moved halfway vertically upwards and horizontally 3 signs anticlockwise into Aries. For us it is the time of spring equinox(march 20). In another 3 months, it reaches its highest point vertically and horizontally it would be situated at the conjunction of Gemini and cancer. This is the day of summer solstice(June 20-22). It is the longest day in the Northern Hemisphere and shortest day in the southern hemisphere.Now what is very very interesting is that this is the very day the sun is at the farthest point from Earth. Now scientists say that aphelion the day when the sun is at the farthest point from Earth is July 4. Now ignoring the faulty instuments of the scientists, we can safely conclude that the summer solstice and aphelion occur on the same day. Or even if not on the same day, on very close days, as scientists themselves as said. Infact in many websites I read that dates of summer solstice and aphelion being so close to each other is a “coincidence” as scientists have a totally different model of rotating Earth which probably cannot explain that. But the internal movement of the Sun in the Bhagvatam beautifully explains this. So this something for all the devotees to cheer about. Hare Krishna!!! So the Bhagvatam has already scored one point over the modern structure. Back to the discussion, this point of summer solstice is also the time of noon in the heavenly planets. Now the sun starts its southern course that is it starts moving vertically downwards and obviously it continuous to move horizontally in the anti clockwise direction(i.e it moves into Cancer). Within 3 months is again comes to its vertical midpoint and horizontally into Libra.This would be the time of autumnal equinox In another 3 months( night for the heavenly planets) it would be at its lowest point. That is the time of winter solstice December 23. Once again quite obviously perihelion occurs on January 3, surely not a “coincidence”. So this yearly movement continuous year after year by the will of Krishna. Now along with the internal movement the Kala cakra(which we assumed stationary) is also moving causing day and night. But the length of day and night vary as when the sun is in the Northern course i.e higher up, it moves slower during day and faster doing night and vice versa in the southern course. From this model we also note that during summer in the Northern hemisphere the sun is higher in the sky and during winter the sun is lower in the sky. In the southern hemisphere during summer the sun is lower in the sky and during winter the sun is higher. Now since you live in the southern hemisphere, could you confirm that sun is lower in the sky during summer there?
As far as the moon is concerned, it is two lakh yojanas above the sun. Its internal motion is similar to the sun only that it completes it entire rotation in the anticlockwise direction in one month versus
the one year taken by the sun. When it is in the same zodiac as that of the sun, it is newmoon. Rahu may come or may not come, but if it comes it causes a partial or total solar eclipse depending on whether it moves in a curly or straight manner. When the moon is in the opposite zodiac it is full moon. When moon is in any of the intermediate signs , it displays its different phases. This is a brief overwiew of the moon. One thing be noted is that although the moon’s internal movement is much greater than that of the sun, during the course of a day the relative positions of the sun and the moon do not change much.That is why all the parts of the world get to see the same phase of the moon on a particular night although night occurs at different times at different parts of the world. So once again it is the internal movement of the sun and the moon and their relative postion which causes the phases the kala cakra only plays the role of “displaying” this relative position to the entire world.
Of course I have some more points to add on this structure but I feel the comment has already become too lengthy so I will post in some other day. Meanwhile could you tell me whether my description matches atleast till some extent with that of the Bhagvatam? I strongly feel it does. I do also feel that there is more to the sun’s horizontal movement than I can explain at present. Anyway one of my good artist friends as made some nice drawings of these things. Could I have your permission to send the scanned copies of these pictures to your email.Pictures do speak a thousand words.
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Hare Krishna AGTSP
Hare Krishna Divine
Yes. It is a long comment and it hurts my brain to read it and to try and understand what you are thinking.
Particularly because you start out saying: “I have got a fairly good idea of how the universe is working.” Actually it is not so easy to understand how the universe is working. We have to be a little humble…
Really I have no idea exactly how the universe is working. I can not comprehend it very clearly. I know what is written in the Bhagavatam is correct but I can not understand it very deeply.
But I can see that you have still not understood the simple movement of the sun and how the kala-chakra is working and I do not think your idea of North and South is really correct.
It is a very beautiful system as it is described in the Bhagavatam. And very simple. But you do not understand it:
“Every day the sun completes one revolution around the sumeru mountain i.e.on the Manasottara mountain. This causes
the day and night at every place…”
This is wrong. Totally wrong.
The day and night at every place is not the same. In the heavenly planets the day and night is caused by the sun going around Manasottara Mountain. That means the day is 6 months and the night is 6 months. Because the sun goes around Manasottara mountain once every 12 months. So for six months the sun is traveling to the south and then it starts traveling to the north for 6 months. So if you take one point on Manasottara mountain as South the point on Manosottara mountain diametrically opposite to this is South. So the sun will travel from that North point to the south point in six months. So for that six months the sun is traveling to the south. Then when it gets to the South point it will start traveling to the north.
So that is North and South. It is not up and down in that sense. We imagine North to be up and South to be down on the globe earth. But that is not how it is described in the Bhagavatam.
So please give me the exact quote, chapter and verse, in the Ninth Canto where you got the idea that the bottom of the universe is south and the top of the universe is north. Maybe. But you have to provide the reference. But at least in the Fifth Canto in regard to the movements of the Sun this is not what it talking about. The Northern course of the sun is not up and the Southern course of the sun is not down. This is the sun going around in a circle. The sun goes around that circle, around Manasottara mountain once in a year. Not once in a day. It moves from north to south in six months and then back from south to north in six months. And this is around Manasottara mountain. Not up and down.
The sun does have an up and down circular movement also. And it rotates through this movement once every 24 hours. So it is this circular up and down rotation of the sun that is causing the day and night. To understand this properly you have to understand the analogy of the oil pressing machine. Which is a big stone joined to a central pole that is pulled around in circles by a bull. You need to go to some village and look at this oil pressing machine working and that should give you some idea of how the sisumara chakra is working and how the sun is moving.
So I have only commented on one or two sentences of your big comment.
Yes. Please email me the pictures. I will send you my email address so you can do that.
The problem is you are a bit like the scientists at the moment…
You started with mistakes and then you keep on going, keep on developing it more and more. All based on your mistakes. So in the end it is all wrong.
So you have to start by correctly understanding the fundamental principles before you rush off to try and explain the whole universe.
You don’t seem to understand that this 24 hour day is only here on Jambhudvipa. As soon as you get out into the other islands they have not got 24 hour days. They have 6 month days and 6 month nights. And the upper heavenly planetary systems, they are also having 6 month days and 6 month nights. Not 24 hour days as you seem to think.
And when you get to Brahmaloka the days up there last for 1000 catyur-yuga cycles [1000 x 4,300,000 aprox] That is Lord Brahma’s day, and the exact numbers you find in Bhagavad-gita. Brahma’s day and night are caused by the sun going on and off. And the sun goes off because at the end of Brahma’s day there is a devastation and the whole universe is flooded and the sun gets flooded so it goes out, so that is Brahma’s night….. Then the water goes down and the sun comes back on and that is Brahma’s day.
So as far as I can see there are three different types of day and night. The 24 hour one that we experience and that seems to be caused by the shadow of Sumuru mountain. But that shaddow only extends as far as Jambhudvipa. Beyond that, like on the south ‘pole’, they experience 6 month days and 6 month nights, because the shadow of Jambhudvipa does not extend out that far. So that is the 24 hour day and the 6 month day. And the huge day of Brahma is when the Sun is being turned off and on.
So I think your problem is you do not clearly understand the movements of the sun, the movements of the Kala-chakra, the example of the oil pressing machine, etc, and without understanding these things you have pushed on to try and understand the whole universe and, like our scientist friends, you are just basing your theories on one mistaken conclusion after another.
If you have a problem in one of your initial assumptions then everything you do after that will be wrong. That is the problem with science. So many of their initial assumptions are wrong so everything after that has to be wrong.
So see I have written so much on just a couple of your sentences. I think before you go to so much effort to understand everything you have to understand the basic movements of the sun and the Kala-chakra and the oil pressing machine.
You don’t seem to understand it. But you seem to think you understand it. I guess that is the modern education system.
Anyhow, chant Hare Krishna and be happy. Really we don’t have the capacity to understand it. We will only be able to understand it to some limited extent by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Yes you were right. This model of mine was overpowered by mental speculation. It is not very much based on the SB. So I am sorry for wasting your time but hopefully the next time I write something I would not be speculating. The pictures are a total waste and do not explain anything honestly speaking so I would not send them. The verse in the ninth canto is SB 9.16.24
TRANSLATION
Thus Jamadagni, being worshiped by Lord Paraśurāma, was brought back to life with full remembrance, and he became one of the seven sages in the group of seven stars.
PURPORT
The seven stars revolving around the polestar at the zenith are called saptarṣi-maṇḍala. On these seven stars, which form the topmost part of our planetary system, reside seven sages: Kaśyapa, Atri, Vasiṣṭha, Viśvāmitra, Gautama, Jamadagni and Bharadvāja. These seven stars are seen every night, and they each make a complete orbit around the polestar within twenty-four hours. Along with these seven stars, all the others stars also orbit from east to west. The upper portion of the universe is called the north, and the lower portion is called the south. Even in our ordinary dealings, while studying a map, we regard the upper portion of the map as north.
I think this verse is very useful.
Hare Krishna. AGTSP
Hare Krishna Divine
Do not become discouraged. You are doing very well. But it is complex and I do not understand it so I can not really help you very much but I have read the Bhagavatam and have some idea what is there, that is all.
It is a very interesting verse you have found. But I do suspect that the northern and southern course of the sun is not up and down but who knows I may be wrong.
Anyhow keep working on it and let me know as you discover new things and if you do have any pictures, animations, etc, that you think may reveal something please let me know.
I do think studying this oil pressing machine mentioned in the Bhagavatam may give you some inspiration also.
All glories to your service.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
if that was the case, why solar eclipse Is visible in only some parts of the earth?the solar eclipse should be visible throughout the earth if it was rahu swallowing the sun
It is not Rahu swallowing the sun. Rahu does not have the power to swallow the sun. Rahu only has the power to block the light of the sun. So all Rahu can do is come in front of the sun and block the light and he can only block the light in the direct line between the sun and the earth. So you see actually Rahu’s power is very small. All demons are like this. They think they are very great but their actual power is very insignificant.
In Caitanya caritamrta Adi 5.98 I came across this
After filling half the universe with water, He made His own residence therein and manifested the fourteen worlds in the other half.
PURPORT
The fourteen worlds are enumerated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Second Canto, Fifth Chapter. The upper planetary systems are (1) Bhū, (2) Bhuvar, (3) Svar, (4) Mahar, (5) Janas, (6) Tapas and (7) Satya. The seven lower planetary systems are (1) Tala, (2) Atala, (3) Vitala, (4) Nitala, (5) Talātala, (6) Mahātala and (7) Sutala. The lower planets, as a whole, are called Pātāla. Among the upper planetary systems, Bhū, Bhuvar and Svar constitute Svargaloka, and the rest are called Martya. The entire universe is thus known as Triloka.
The gayatri mantra says om bhur bhuvah svah so can we assume that the sunshine spreads only till svar loka and the planetary systems above svar like mahar,janas etc do not depend on sulight???
Actually I had never realised that there is so much information of the universe in the Caitanya Caritamrta in so many of the verses. It is really wonderful!!!!
2.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVZE91PWog
Above is a 1min video of an oil pressing machine. Is it the same oil pressing machine the SB is talking about??
Hare Krishna.AGTSP
Hare Krishna Divine
All the upper planetary systems depend on sunlight. Even the topmost planet Brahmaloka, it depends on sunlight. But there is no sunlight in the lower planetary systems, the subterainian heavenly planets and the hellish planets. There is no sun down there. There they have nagas with shining Jewels in their hoods and in this way those planets are illuminated. They are below bhu-mandala so the sunlight can not go through bhu-mandala. But above bhu-mandala the sunlight is there. It does not go beyond those big mountains half way out though, beyond those outer mountains there is no sunlight.
Yes. There is so much in the Caitanya-caritamrta. It is very, very wonderful.
As far as the video this oil pressing machine has some of the aspects of the oil pressing machine in the Bhagavatam. The bulls are pulling it around like in the bhagavatam, there are two axles, one yoked to the bull and a second going up to the center, so the sun god’s chariot is something like that.
But the one in the Bhagavatam has a big wheel that turns around. So I think maybe there are different types of oil pressing machines and perhaps you can keep on researching this. But it is a very good video and a good start.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Hare Krishna
dear Madhudvisa Prabhu thank you very much for your valuable Information. Visiting your Website always strengthens my Krishna Counsciousness and provides me with nice preaching Equipment. As far as the Bhumandala Discussion is concerned i think i’ve found a very nice Video entitled Vedic Cosmos, not the one by Sadaputa das. It describes in great Detail the Cosmology of the Bhagavatam and also establishes how to perceive that System nicely, supported by many references from the vedic Literatures like Mahabharat and Vishnupurana, so I hope this will be helpful in Clearing up the Earth conception of the Bhagavatam. As I understood from this Video and also of my repeated study of the Fifth Canto of the Bhagavatam the Earth Planet ( Only Bharat Varsha just as stated often by Srila Prabhupada himself) is indeed a Globe which has a Diameter of 8000 miles (as per Vishnu Purana). Surprizingly this matches exactly the measurements of modern science and so confirms the divine Nature of our beloved Shastras JAY SRI KRISHNA. And also Bhagavatam says that when the Sun shines in one Country the Country on the opposite side expieriences midnight and so forth. Also that the Sun travels horizontally around the Bhumandala Planetary System and not above it indicates clearly that Bharat Varsha( Or at least whole Jambudvipa) is a Globe and so a Planet in the Sky. And the other eight heavenly Varshas of Jambudvipa either must be Multidimensional or other Planets like Bharat Varsha but in some way covered from our Vision by the Arrangement of the Lord. As far as the rest of the Dvipas up to Plaksadvipa are concerned i also have no idea, because they are not described as Heavenly Realms.
Here is the Video:
http://krishnatube.com/video/317/Vedic-Cosmos–The-Mystery-of-the-workings-of-the-universe
Hare Krishna Benjamin
Yes. I do not really like that vedic cosmos video very much because the universe they come up with just does not work. It is silly if we propose something that just does not work and that is what they have done.
As far as the Earth I do not know exactly and I think you do not know either. It is a question of realization and I have not yet realized what it is and I don’t think you have realized it either nor do I think the people who made that video have realized it.
So I will wait on this point until I have some firm information on it.
At the moment I am open to the earth being a globe but I am also open to it being other things. Really at this point in time I do not know. I accept everything that is written in the Bhagavatam as the truth but as far as the universe it is not yet clear to me. I have read it but not yet realized it…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa