全 47 件のコメント

[–]International_KBAt least three milli-Cromwells worth of oppression 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

Goddamn it. That's the third time someone has tackled this list while my own debunking sits half-finished in my draft folder. Not cool, people.

On a serious note, I would be harsher. I don't consider Tollet to be a credible source. More importantly, the presentation of Tauger and Davies fundamentally mis-presents their arguments through the excessive narrow framing of the question. It's not a matter of presenting alternative sources (both tackle the historiography in their works) but the dishonest use of the sources used.

But I doubt that there's any appetite for a fourth bite of this cake.

Tauger argues that the numbers used to justify the high grain production of 1832 were fabricated by the Soviets. Again, this should serve us as a reminder to analyse our sources. I do find this claim slightly problematic, as Tauger accepts the Soviet reports for grain procurements and uses these to justify his argument that grain procurements were actually lower in 1832 than in other years.

Shouldn't be a problem here. The production figure is an estimate of the actual yield from the fields. This is tricky in any country at any time (how many ears of grain in a field?) but was particularly politicised in the Soviet Union. The procurement figure is the count of the grain actually obtained by the Soviet government via collections, ie the amount that it could physically lay its hands on.

The collection figure is probably far from perfect (in the general sense of all Soviet statistics) but they were the figures used by the state authorities in their allocations/calculations. We can, and Davies and Wheatcroft have, reconstruct in detail the progress of the 1932 grain collection plan and the Politburo's reaction to it.

[–]TiakoTevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

But I doubt that there's any appetite for a fourth bite of this cake.

I'll give one a go!

Ctrl+F: "Chechnya": No results found

Ctrl+F "Central Asia": No results found

Ctrl+F "Crimea": No results found

Well ok then.

[–]124876720'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD' - Ernst Junger 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

I once encountered an "anti-racist" student communist who, quite unironically, referred to Chechens as "lowlife atrocity thieves" because..[*drumroll]..."they gave the deportations of 1944 a bullshit name to make them seem like the Holocaust".

These would be the Aardakh - y'know, the 1944 deportations in which around 1/3rd of the Vainakh people perished, their cultural monuments and treasures burnt, the survivors deported to Kazakhstan, and the land colonized by ethnic Russian settlers.

[–]TiakoTevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It was straight up genocide, and part of a larger policy of straight up genocide towards the largely Muslim inhabitants of the margins of the USSR

Also, do you want to rage? /r/Communism opposes imperialism!

[–]124876720'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD' - Ernst Junger 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It can't be genocide, the Chechens are still there! /s

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

*except Soviet imperialism

[–]TheZizekiest[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure if this is really correct for /r/badhistory ? I tried to message the mods, but it wouldn't fit in the mod mail. If it isn't appropriate I'll move it to /r/history or any other subs people could suggest!

Also, the title refers both to those who claim Holodomor was man-made, and those who say that it wasn't, given that most members of both groups (who aren't academics) have probably allowed bias to influence their reading on this topic (I know I have).

[–]SnapshillBotPassing Turing Tests since 1956 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the beauty of bad history: the more you stare at it, the more it's always been about States Rights.

Snapshots:

  1. This Post - 1, 2, 3

  2. <em>“Debunking Anti-Communism” Masterpost</em> - 1, 2, 3

  3. /r/communism - 1, 2, 3

  4. HBDR did - 1, 2, 3

  5. http://rationalrevolution.net/speci... - 1, 2, 3

  6. http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Facul... - 1, 2, 3

  7. http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Facul... - 1, 2, 3

  8. http://libgen.in/get.php?md5=32DAA2... - 1, 2, Error

  9. school - 1, 2, 3

  10. these guys - 1, 2, 3

  11. International Commission of Inquiry... - 1, 2, Error

I am a bot. (Info / Contact)

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 34ポイント35ポイント  (34子コメント)

The point isn't to debunk anything, it's to provide a handy list of "sources' for the tankies to throw at people to make it look like they have a leg to stand on

[–]yoshiKUncultured savage since 476 AD 38ポイント39ポイント  (1子コメント)

The tankies usually have a leg to stand on, probably Czech and with imprints of tank tracks.

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nicely played, have an upboat

[–]TheZizekiest[S] 20ポイント21ポイント  (6子コメント)

You call them tankies, yet you air-quote sources when referring to (at least, for the most part in this section) well-received academic texts . If you're going to accuse them of bias you should probably not make your own so obvious.

Of course the source is presented in this way so they can just throw sources at you, and you can't possibly respond to all of their claims. That is why I wrote this. To see if their sources actually claim what they claim, how strong this claim is, and whether or not their sources actually give you reason to accept it.

I'll be honest, this is 100% a replacement for my HBDR breakdown on /r/badsocialscience, given that I lost about 4000 words of that write up, and /r/coontown got banned. This is not nearly on the level of "throwing sources" at someone to get them to shut up, as the HBDR because these are decent sources which directly claim what the masterpost says they do. As I repeatedly stated, this source does not constitute a thorough, balanced account of history and must be supplemented, however, it does treat the 'myths' with far more respect than you are treating the opposition to them, despite the fact that this opposition is informed by academic texts.

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

Their views are not informed by academic texts, they use those academic texts because they might happen to support part of those views, or at least they can portray them as doing so.

Their views are political and faith-based. I tend not to treat their claims with any respect because I don't believe in offering people a platform to spout their politics, especially where it involves atrocity denialism.

[–]TheZizekiest[S] 33ポイント34ポイント  (4子コメント)

Their views are not informed by academic texts, they use those academic texts because they might happen to support part of those views, or at least they can portray them as doing so

Outright denialism, claiming the Holodomor wasn't man-made, or at least exacerbated by the Soviet government is not supported by academic texts, sure. Claiming it was not a genocide, or that it was motivated by incompetence and poor planning, and perhaps apathy, rather than malicious intent is.

Perhaps I should include a paragraph about the fact that they never explicitly state in the masterpost what thesis they offer in place of the myth. That would actually be a decent idea. If the thesis is "The Soviets did nothing wrong" then yea, that's fucked. But if the thesis is "The Holodomor was probably not malicious, and had numerous causes including Soviet incompetence and forced collectivization" then it is supported by academic texts.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that a book written by the emeritus professor of Soviet Economic studies at the University of Birmingham, which received positive reviews from numerous writers, is political and faith based? Because that describes the final book, and it denies that the Holodomor was intentional, although it does place the blame on the Soviets.

I tend not to treat their claims with any respect because I don't believe in offering people a platform to spout their politics, especially where it involves atrocity denialism.

So would you give platform for Ukrainians to call it a genocide? Because the same argument could be launched in that regard. Or do we just accept it as genocide so as not to be accused of 'atrocity denialism?'

Holodomor is an event which has been heavily politicised on, and by, both sides. That is why we need to listen to all sides, so that we don't just get stuck accepting the one which most obviously confers to our ideology.

[–]International_KBAt least three milli-Cromwells worth of oppression 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Holodomor is an event which has been heavily politicised on, and by, both sides. That is why we need to listen to all sides, so that we don't just get stuck accepting the one which most obviously confers to our ideology.

I disagree. This is the BBC view of objectivity: put two opposing sides in a room with the expectation that they'll cancel each other out and the 'correct' interpretation will emerge. That doesn't work in the real world and it doesn't work when it comes to history. If a work of history is crap then it's crap, regardless of what 'side' it's on. And if it's not crap then it likely won't provide a simple yes/no answer anyway.

Quite a few of the sources r/communism uses are garbage. There is little to no value in them. You were far too kind to Tottle above. Those quality sources that they did use - and both Davies and Tauger are respected academics - have been twisted or misinterpreted to fit into an artificially binary question. In the process the nuance has been lost. There is nothing to be gained from either reading cranks or cherry-picking facts from detailed works.

The problem is not that r/communism only assembled one side of an argument but that it reduced a complex event to a simple binary argument in the first place. By all means read both Conquest and Wheatcroft (I'd pass on Tottle) but don't do it on the basis of a severely limited question or while searching for a 'neutral' middle-ground. That's not history: it's soapboxing with an arsenal of arbitrary sources. Which is just what r/communism is doing.

Instead I'd suggest leaving the historians to get on with their research. This discussion has already moved so far in the past two decades precisely because the likes of Davies have been ignoring the politicians and proceeding with the detailed research. In the process our understanding of events is much deeper and more nuanced than 'genocide: yea or nay'.

[–]King_Posner 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

that concept is outright dangerous - Was evolution the cause of man? "well, clearly we need to take the middle course, we can't just rely on the scientists or the bible thumpers, hmm, intelligent design!!"

the truth is rarely in the middle, it's often squarely within the side with the most facts that adhere, especially if their theory changes when facts contradict it.

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not the source, its who is using it and how it's being used

[–]TheZizekiest[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea absolutely, hence the point in me writing this. I regularly criticise the format of the source throughout the write up. But if somebody wants to gain a better understanding of the Holodomor this text, when treated neutrally as a part of a wider reading program, does offer good sources to help with that.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 5ポイント6ポイント  (14子コメント)

the tankies

The whats?

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 31ポイント32ポイント  (13子コメント)

A mocking term for the die-hard Stalinists, the ones who decided the invasion of Hungary in 1956 was totes justified and Rakosi did nothing wrong

[–]Crow7878When your hand becomes steel, there is nothing you can't punch. 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

May I ask what the "tankies" thing is referencing? I am not seeing what the specific term is derived from.

[–]PlayMp1The Horus Heresy was an inside job 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

The invasion of Hungary 1956 involved the Soviets literally rolling down the street with tanks. Tankies defend rolling down the street with tanks with red stars painted on them.

[–]The740Waylon Jennings is not a primary source 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

The tanks did have to slow down a few times to clear the roads of dinner plates that were painted and laid to look like mines.

[–]Crow7878When your hand becomes steel, there is nothing you can't punch. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you.

[–]sometakealifetime 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

who wants to rewrite Gin and Juice from the perspective of a Russian soldier in one of those tanks?

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yikes. Is the term Tankaboo taken already or something?

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 30ポイント31ポイント  (6子コメント)

This dank meme comes straight from the 50s

[–]vanderblush 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Retro memes are best memes

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Wow cool. Is it a Western/US dank meme or does it hail from Hungary?

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think the term comes out of splits within the British communists

[–]hoxhas_ghostMagma Theologist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, my understanding is that it comes from the split inside the Communist Party of Great Britain over the invasion of Hungary, although it has become a part of the venerable Trotskyist arsenal of insulting things to call Stalinists.

[–]124876720'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD' - Ernst Junger 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The tankies apparently tried to come up with a counter dank meme by calling Trotskyists "icepicks". Never really caught on.

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That doesn't even make any sense... tankies pls

[–]jabbaciv 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Beware all ye communists who enter here.

Well, Tankies anyway. A lot of modern communists, and definitely a lot of socialists and left-anarchists / anarcho-communists, aren't going to be defending the 1930s Soviet Union anyway. If you'd touched on more than the Holodomor you may have gotten to something that a socialist would feel bad about. As it is, the Holodomor has about as much in common with non-Tankie commies as the Congo Free State has with modern capitalists.

[–]SCDareDaemonsex jokes&crossdressing are the keys to architectural greatness 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

A fair amount of old timey communists had vocal objections to the models upon which marxist-leninist ideology (and by extension the whole of the USSR) was based, back when Russia was still a monarchy.

It's just that association with the USSR and other actually powerful communist entities gave the Marxist-Leninists, Stalinists, etc a platform; and the cold war made it politically inconvenient for the right wing to legitimize the idea that there could be communism without Marxist-Leninism.