262
263

The "Debunking Anti-Communism" Masterpost (self.communism)

oliverhart が 投稿

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Hey comrades, this is a post from the Communism 101 facebook group (not associated with /r/communism101) that I think could be super helpful for loads of questions we get asked here. Thanks to Kyle Joseph for letting us copy it onto here.

It took me ages to format it properly and now I need to get some sleep, so I wasn't able to fix all the links (change facebook links, add pdfs instead of amazon links, etc). I'll be working on it tomorrow, but if in the meantime someone wants to help out, that'd be great, just send the correct version to me in a PM.

Also, please add anything else in the comments.

THE "DEBUNKING ANTI-COMMUNISM" MASTERPOST

IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE "ATROCITIES" OF SOCIALISM, CHECK HERE FIRST!

Almost daily, this forum rehashes decades-old chestnuts about communist history, ranging from cold war tales of poverty and famine, to ludicrous myths about alleged genocides. To reduce the clutter, I'll present some basic resources refuting these myths. If you have suggested additions for the database, just let me or another admin know, and odds are we'll throw it up here.

Let's begin. For now, I'll just cover the main controversies that spring to mind, but please remind me of anything huge you feel I've overlooked.

SECTION 1: THE SOVIET UNION AND EASTERN EUROPE

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 1: THE SOVIET UNION MANUFACTURED A FAMINE IN UKRAINE

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 2: THE SOVIET UNION REPRESSED AND KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 3: THE SOVIET UNION AND THE EASTERN BLOC HAD NO DEMOCRACY

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 4: SOCIALISM IS AN ECONOMIC FAILURE

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 5: EVERYBODY HATED SOCIALISM

SECTION 2: THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 1: MAO KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 2: CHINA WAS A TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP

SECTION 3: CUBA

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 1: CHE WAS A BLOODTHIRSTY BUTCHER

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 2: CUBA HAS NO DEMOCRACY AND IS A HORRIBLE PLACE TO LIVE

SECTION 4: THE DPRK

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 1: NORTH KOREANS BELIEVE IN UNICORNS AND THEY THINK KIM JONG-UN IS IMMORTAL

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 2: THE DPRK IS A FASCIST MONARCHY

SECTION 5: THE PEOPLE'S (SOCIALIST) REPUBLIC OF ALBANIA

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 1: ALBANIA WAS A TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP

全 79 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]emnot3 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

A few of the links are broken. Here:

Studies by historian Robert Thurston

Democracy, East Germany and the Berlin Wall

The Russians are Coming: The Politics of Anti-Sovietism

1936 Constitution of the USSR

Do Publicly Owned, Planned Economies Work?

From Farm to Factory

Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life

20 Reasons to Support Cuba

Cuba: A Revolution in Motion

Cuba and Its Neighbours: Democracy in Motion

Cuban democracy fact sheet

The Elected Delegate and the Dissident in Cuba’s Municipal Elections

Korea Resilient! Socialism in Democratic Korea

Western DPRK Propaganda: The Worst, Occasionally Hilarious, and Often Racist, Lies

Happy reading, comrades!

[–]oliverhart[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Thanks, just what I needed!

Also if anyone has other resources to add please post them here in the comments. The China part is particularly lacking - I've added a few already but there's still other resources.

[–]MMonReddit 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

I will be 100% honest with my first post in /r/communism after having been a somewhat active poster in /r/socialism for a while and /r/anarchism to a lesser degree -- I am concerned about the legitimacy of some of the sources here. As someone who would like to look into some of this, how can I trust some of these links? I obviously find academic journal evidence to be high quality, but on the other hand I quickly skim and see things like tumblr and reddit links?

[–]oliverhart[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Hi,

I would suggest actually looking at those links - the tumblr one has 33 items in its bibliography relying heavily on primary sources but also scholarly works. The reddit one is entirely paraphrased from one published book.

Anyway, it is not a very good attitude towards study to say "this doesn't come from bourgeois academia, therefore I can't trust it". As Marx explained long ago, the institutions erected by capitalism are far from objective, and always bear an ideological mark. Even natural (psuedo)science is used to justify racism, sexism, and capitalism, and remains widespread.

It is much better for you to actually study these works, and see for yourself if they properly use data and if their analysis is coherent.

[–]pleurocarp 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

It is much better for you to actually study these works, and see for yourself if they properly use data and if their analysis is coherent.

Ok, so why didn't you link us to those primary and secondary sources, instead of someone (who we know nothing about, about their biases or qualifications) else's analysis? Studying the sources themselves is better than getting it second-hand.

Anyway, it is not a very good attitude towards study

No, but it's a very good attitude to be skeptical and critical of information you find on the internet.

As Marx explained long ago, the institutions erected by capitalism are far from objective, and always bear an ideological mark.

And yet you say that the works you've linked to are relying on part on those "biased bourgeois academia" when you mention the scholarly works.

Also, 33 sources isn't very good for a subject that large and controversial :/

[–]oliverhart[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Pretending for a moment that you're asking these questions in good faith...

why didn't you link us to those primary and secondary sources, instead of someone (who we know nothing about, about their biases or qualifications) else's analysis? Studying the sources themselves is better than getting it second-hand.

As it says in the post I didn't make this, but a lot of those secondary sources (e.g. Getty, Thurston, Fitzpatrick) are in this list. Primary sources (for example the Soviet state archives) are not included in this list - because this list is not for historians, but for lay communists who want to study history from a historical materialist perspective. Secondary studies as a rule have bibliographies including primary sources at the end if you're really so keen though!

And yet you say that the works you've linked to are relying on part on those "biased bourgeois academia" when you mention the scholarly works.

The same way something isn't necessarily wrong just because it's written on an online blog, it's not necessarily wrong if it's published by Stanford University Press. There are plenty of bourgeois historians (many cited in this list, including J Arch Getty who is arguably the most prestigious contemporary Sovietologist) who dispel the Cold War mythology that is continues to linger in academia today, even though they may not analyse the data from a historical materialist perspective.

33 sources isn't very good for a subject that large and controversial

It most certainly is for such a short, introductory article - and I'm saying that as someone who works in academia. Anyway that blog post is included in a section of this list that features 8 other full-length books and one collection of books.

Anyway, please read the rules before posting - this subreddit is specifically for communists!

[–]Steelbolt 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

This is amazing! Thanks, comrade!

[–]ApcehCraft 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Yugoslavia?

[–]eric3844 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Jesus H. Christ, this is fucking beautiful.

[–]Staxxy 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Holy fuck, this is such a great repository. Thanks! Will definitely look into some of those.

[–]MasCapital 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

More in 1.1 on the Ukrainian Famine

More in 1.3 on democracy in USSR

New section on China:

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 2: CHINA WAS A TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP

More in 4.2 on DPRK

More in 3.2 on Cuba

New section on Albania:

SECTION 5: THE PEOPLE'S (SOCIALIST) REPUBLIC OF ALBANIA

ANTI-COMMUNIST MYTH NUMBER 1: ALBANIA WAS A TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP

[–]oliverhart[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Thanks! And thanks again for formatting it haha

[–]MasCapital 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

You're welcome! I'll keep editing if I think of more.

[–]oliverhart[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Great - I'll keep an eye on it.

[–]UristLemonz 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Lots of reading to do.

[–]ParisPC07 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

20 reasons to support Cuba is a bad link. Great post overall thank you.

[–]Moontouch 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

A lot of your links are not actually working because it looks like they've been shorted with ellipses. The Cuba section is a good example.

[–]oliverhart[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Yea as I wrote in the introduction I didn't have time to fix it so I was hoping people could help out. /u/emnot3 came to the rescue though

[–]SoCCantKillMe 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I have a wordpad document just like this, love this.

[–]quickqforcommies 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

If there's anything not included in this list on your wordpad doc, would you post it here?

[–]SoCCantKillMe 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Sure

[–]rndzvs 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Impressive! Thanks!

[–]amnsisc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Aaaah, someone should bundle these as a giant PDF so I can print and read like a book. Haha. Maybe I will if I get around to it.

Edit: Thanks so much, btw.

[–]theredmilitiaman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

The internet needed this. I can't tell you how many times I have found comrades seeking a comprehensive breakdown-takedown of anti-communism. This saves so much time for everyone involved, I cannot thank you enough comrade!

[–]Danotto94 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I like the post mentioning 20 reasons to support Cuba. I want to go there, now, and record video of how it is (unless recording stuff is illegal, which I don't see why it would be if there's nothing that the Cuban government wouldn't want the outside world to see).

[–]addictedtoRdrugs -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Do you mind sharing the link. I must have missed it but I would love to read it.

[–]Danotto94 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

http://www.invent-the-future.org/2013/07/20-reasons-to-support-cuba/

[–]addictedtoRdrugs 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

oh wow, I feel silly it is in the post. I read your comment wrong and thought you were talking about a different thread.

[–]Danotto94 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

No worries :).

[–]DeLaProle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Another resource for myth number 1 in the DPRK section:

https://redyouthuk.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/dprk-propaganda-war-a-cavalcade-of-comedy/

[–]jewish-mel-gibson 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Idea: request permissions for each thing, stick whatever you can in a book, write a foreword, print it using crowdsourced money, and charge just enough to cover the costs of printing more.

[–]ComradeDanger 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I've got a couple Anarchist friends who like to tell me that Communists killed Anarchists at Kronstadt, and in Ukraine and in Spain just for the sake of being evil. Does anyone have anything I could read to refute those claims?

[–]oliverhart[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Here's a few a comrade posted in /r/socialism on Makhno/Kronstadt, they're pretty good tho they're Trotskyist

http://www.marxist.com/makhno-anarchists-kronstadt-russia.htm

http://www.marxist.com/who-was-makhno-and-what-did-he-stand-for.htm

http://www.isreview.org/issues/53/makhno.shtml

http://www.marxist.com/kronstadt-trotsky-was-right.htm

[–]ComradeDanger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

These are great, thank you!

[–]MasCapital 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

On Kronstadt, see this thread and this video and the following Q&A. On Spain, see these. On Ukraine, this.

[–]addictedtoRdrugs 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Should be on the side bar, thank you so much comrade!

[–]cmmred 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Wonderful to have all this laid out systematically. Thanks.

[–]addictedtoRdrugs 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Hey do you mind if I xpost this over to /r/socialism and /r/anarchy I am sure they would love to see some of these resources.

[–]oliverhart[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Tbh I think they would absolutely hate these and it would lead to loads of trolls coming into this thread, especially if you post it to /r/anarchism.

[–]cancercures 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Not a 'debunking' of soviet rape attrocities in Germany during end of WWII, but to expand that it was also commonplace for other Allies armies to do the same. Allies raped almost 1m Germans: academic

A German historian estimates in a new book that French, British and American soldiers raped 860,000 Germans at and after the end of the Second World War, including 190,000 sexual assaults by American soldiers.

Much of the discussion of sexual assaults against Germans has focused on the Soviet troops in east Germany, who are estimated to have committed between one to two million rapes during the time.

Gebhardt said she wanted to challenge the assumption that it was only the Red Army that was responsible for such acts.

Thoughts?

[–]Handel85 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Saved for future reading. Thanks.

[–]alex989233 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Holy shit! This is golden! It seems we've all got some reading to do. Thanks comrade!

[–]theoryofevrythng 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I don't know whether this is of any help, and maybe this is for another thread, but I put together a short article detailing all the different ways that the ruling class translate their wealth into power. Maybe it would be best used as part of an even broader masterpost. Anyway, here that is, for you or anyone else who sees a use for it:

"In what ways is wealth power, and how do the wealthy use it to support capitalism?"

[–]KoLiiN 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Anything on "the USSR invaded Polony in 1939 and the secret apendix of the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty"?

[–]MasCapital 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Grover Furr has stuff on this here and here. Also this.

[–]KoLiiN 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lovely, thanks.

[–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

[deleted]

    [–]oliverhart[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

    If you can take the text, edit it, fix the links, and send it to me, I'll be happy to update it! I'm just really busy

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

    ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

    [deleted]

      [–]oliverhart[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

      Sick, thanks a lot!

      [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

      Thank you so damn much for this.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

      [deleted]

        [–]oliverhart[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

        Yes, I love that one! adding it right now

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

        [deleted]