全 20 件のコメント

[–]pompouspug 42ポイント43ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's pretty troubling that you would actually have a double standard in regards to these accusations, considering what's up with rape culture in general. Just because she's on "your side" you shouldn't feel the need to attribute it to some kind of smear campaign before anything is confirmed, and just because the opposing side has a bad track record doesn't mean it is lying. That is bad form.

There have been enough "good" and progressive people that turned out to be sexually abusive, and we know that this very question you pose here is being positively biased towards someone because she's "on your side". I don't mean that in an accusatory way, but I think it's absolutely unacceptable to play favorites when talking about a reproach as severe as this.

[–]Dakarai007[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I mean, that's kind of the point of my post. When all this drama broke out, I had to examine my biases as to why my gut instinct was to assume it was a smear campaign, which led me to think that this isn't the first time that Milo had done hit pieces (and the Shawn King one came to mind as one that was completely inaccurate). Which gives me the question as to how I should responsibly approach this. While I don't want to assume guilt or innocence, I also don't want to lend credibility to someone who has been shown to make stuff up.

[–]pompouspug 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree that it's a pretty tough problem, and the only approach I'd say is "right" is to keep completely out of it. That way you're not showing bias, but you're also not really lending credibility to Milo.

It'd be disingenuous to go through mental gymnastics to give less credence to this accusation than to any other public accusation. I'm pretty sure the guy didn't have remotely respectable intentions and he definitely shouldn't have publicized anything this way, but there's definitely a chance that he actually dug some heinous shit up.

Thing is, I think you shouldn't ever apply "that boy cried wolf" to reports of this magnitude, because that could lead to some very dark places.

[–]piyochama 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your point is very excellently put. Honestly, as "saintly" as any one person may seem, they too are only human and can turn predatory just as easily as anyone else.

[–]devilmaydance 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Isn't this the point of "innocent until proven guilty."? Like that seems like it would solve the problem on both "sides". I've always been uncomfortable with the fact that more liberal-minded folk seem to assume the opposite with rape cases, yet the alternative (never believing the victim) is also troubling.

For example,

Just because she's on "your side" you shouldn't feel the need to attribute it to some kind of smear campaign before anything is confirmed

Maybe we shouldn't assume ANYTHING in regards to criminal activity until anything is confirmed?

I feel like the fact that many in here are already ready to turn on Sarah based on the word of a known liar and unethical journalist shows just how easy it is for rape accusations (false or otherwise) to send people on witch hunts.

[–]pompouspug 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've always been uncomfortable with the fact that more liberal-minded folk seem to assume the opposite with rape cases

See, this is a problem I have, too. I get it from an empathetical point of view, getting doubted when you are in fact a rape victim must be one of the most horrible feelings that a person can feel.

The thing is, you can't just assume that the other party is guilty either, at which point you're more or less implicitely saying to the victim "I am not ruling out the possibility that you might be lying". It must feel incredibly hurtful. Rape really is a special case in that regard, because there is so much potential emotional destruction involved, and I can't overlook that. It's basically a lose-lose situation.

That said, I'll always fully support the attitude of "innocent until proven guilty". I might make some assumptions in one way or another, I'm not a perfectly objective being after all, but I try to keep my mouth shut about that.

[–]Mishellie30 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that you can understand innocent until proven guilty as the just law and still support the victim and say "I believe you, it's not your fault, how can I help?" Without too much issue. Because the support will do no harm if the victim IS lying (which is statistically rare) but not providing support WILL harm a rape victim and possibly prevent justice from ever being had.

It doesn't mean that you have to advocate for throwing away the key without evidence... That's what trials do. But we all know that trials don't always come to the right conclusion either, so maybe the best thing is to support someone who claims they've been through a trauma and see how things go.

*Edited for OMG MY SPELLING.

[–]thesacredbear [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I find That the differences my reactions are really about context in which the experience is shared. when a victim comes privately such as to a teacher, friend or service provider medical or otherwise they shouldn't be disbelieved.

However I also feel that as a story enters the public field of news and justice these the search for truth should be a greater concern than emotional distress. This is why victims advocates are necessarily unobjective while police/reporters should be more skeptical. The unobjective nature of a victims advocate being taken as truth is what led to the rolling Stone kerfuffle.

The issue is when people cross the gap between the public field of debate and use it to justify personal attacks which forces the victims to be subject to accusations of lying.

[–]origamiashit 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

In this case, it really isn't necessary to trust potentially biased sources. We can look at the evidence itself, in the form of Nyburg's chat logs that were archived on her own website. The source of the logs, as well as the fact that Nyburg submitted a DMCA takedown notice against websites rehosting the logs, seems to indicate that the logs are authentic.

Since these logs were the primary source for most of Milo's story, it seems to be pretty well supported.

[–]Engelgrinder 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha lets not defend gross pedophile shit.

edit: I'll never really understand why people (and it looks like SRSPrime is endorsing this garbage) waste their time with 4channers instead of sitting down and reading the collected works of Amilcar Cabral or w/e....

[–]whargarbl132 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

When they're implausible and/or the accuser is likely to have a certain ulterior motive, i.e., the same way we treat any other accusation of anything.

[–]fernsauce 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Generally

(1): accusations of this weight should be taken seriously. By should be taken seriously I mean that unless it's complete, blatant lies it should not be offhandedly dismissed.

(2): regardless of whether or not someone is a Terrible Horrible Person, they are still a person. They still deserve some level of dignity. This includes pedophiles. As such, KiA is still fucking gross. I haven't looked into SRD, but chances are decent that they are also fucking gross, but really, who knows.

(3): Milo Yiannopolus is a horrible, unethical journalist who absolutely does not vet his sources. We know this because he previously ran a piece on a BLM activist who was supposedly white (hint: total bullshit). His source for said piece was a Jewish bizarro-troll posing (I think, might actually have been for real) as a neo-Nazi who was recently arrested for inciting terrorism. I think I would actually trust a Tumblr blog written by a person I've never met before more than Milo Yiannopolus.

As it turns out, you can simultaneously take an allegation seriously and think it should be treated seriously, even if there are reasons to doubt it. The "innocent / guilty" dichotomy as far as iffy allegations go is problematic, at best: allegations, especially ones that are largely based off of hearsay or dubious sources or proven liars or lack decent investigation into their truthfulness, are uncertain. Trying to claim they're not because you think you're really clever or because you can just assign blanket protection or assumption of guilt on the basis of the political affiliation of the target is extremely dangerous.

[–]Quietuus 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think that, perhaps, people would like to assume that the reason false rape accusations (particularly ones that make it to the point of official scrutiny) are so much rarer than rape and abuse itself is because of some sort of moral or ethical issue. But that's not the case; the reason why one of these things is rare and one isn't is because of the systems of power embedded in our society. It's far too easy (and has been easier in the past) for people to get away with rape and abuse, and it's far too difficult for people to seek justice for it. The negative consequences of even being perceived as a rape victim (recall that many are routinely accused of just 'making it up' or being complicit anyway) generally outweigh any possible gain one could have in causing harm against another person by accusing them of such a thing. For this reason alone, apart from any other concerns, it beholds us to consider accusations very seriously.

However, there are situations where this logic breaks down; where negative consequences are absent, or other wider forces are at play. For example, in the child abuse witch-hunts associated with the 'satanic panic', the accusers were being used as pawns, psychologically and psychiatrically manipulated by various paranoid groups who were obsessed with the idea of secret networks of Satanists. It's also possible to imagine situations where the direct benefit to the accuser is very great, though this should never be a reason to dismiss any accusation out of hand.

In this situation, we have no victim. There are no real negative consequences that could fall upon Yiannopoulos from making these accusations. He is in the privileged position. There is no claim that he's managed to find a victim of Nyberg willing to speak out. There is a claim at the end of the article that Breitbart is in contact with Alices parents, who have 'confirmed facts', though they have declined to comment, and there is no elaboration as to what facts have been confirmed. So potentially this might change. However, proceeding from this basic consideration, one must consider the personal history of Yiannopoulos (highly manipulative, blackmailer) the history of the publication in question (it's fucking Breitbart) the likely source of all the logs and screenshots (chan culture trolls) and much more besides. Of course, if Yiannopoulos has managed to obtain concrete evidence that Nyberg has been involved in child abuse, either directly or indirectly through the distribution of child pornography, then I am sure he will be turning this information over to some sort of legal authority. Personally, the logs seem to me to be a mixture of distasteful and concerning, but they're also chanspeaking teenagers bullshitting and trying to out-edge each other, which would seem to be born out with the stuff about white nationalism.

[–]gavinbrindstar 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think to put it a little simpler: It's a gamergator/Breitbart journalist accusing his enemy of being a pedophile. I cannot think of a less trustworthy source.

[–]SweetNyan 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

And then there's Milo, who works for the disreputable Breitbart, and recently wrote the hit piece on Shawn King, claiming that he was pretending to be black, and forcing King to come out and admit his mother's infidelity in order to prove he's not a liar.

What's interesting about that is that the 'main source' for that article was just today arrested for terrorism.

Anyway as for your main point, I do think its disgusting what was said and alleged, but then, it has been ten years, and the information was obtained illegally. Not to mention that this isn't a celebrity or a politician who is in the public eye. Its just a person who critiqued gamergate.

Back when the original 'zoe post' came out, I was sympathetic to Gjoni, as were a lot of people. But over time, the sympathy died as his response was so huge, and the harassment he was encouraging meant he went from being not guilty, to just as guilty, to even worse.

I feel the same way about this. Sarah seems to have done some really bad things, probably enough to justify a quiet police report, or even a Tumblr call out post. But an article in a 'serious' 'news' site? She's basically a nobody to everyone outside this small hate group. Its just absurd and disproportionate.

We should give all accusations the same respect. But it doesn't mean we have to like the way the accusation is being handled, especially when it isn't even by the harmed party.

[–]TudorGothicSerpent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The only case where I would (mostly) disregard something that serious would be if it came from a source known to make false claims about political opponents and to do it often. Even then, you can't completely jettison the possibility that it's true, but there are cases when even courts will rightly treat plaintiffs differently as vexatious litigants (for example, the Church of Scientology, which is known to use the legal process to ruin anyone critical of it).

[–]mrasarescumbags -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, you don't owe rape victims anything (besides not accusing them of lying), much less uninvolved third parties reporting on rape, csa, etc. You judge their credibility as you would anyone else. If it's someone you care about, their credibility shouldn't be important. They're hurting and you want to help. Nothing is likely to happen to the rapist anyway, unless you do it yourself.

If for whatever reason I were talking to a misogynist who I suspected of abusing this guaranteed belief, I would offer them basic courtesies and stop talking to them about it. That said, from briefly looking at that shit article, it seems the woman claimed outright to be a pedophile and admitted the logs were real. I don't really trust gg nerds or anyone who writes for breitbart, but I don't really care either way. Assuming the article is accurate, she sounds like a wack person. Opposing gg is an incredibly low bar for me to support someone.

Edit: an actual example. There was some dude posted gross pedo apologism on the anarchism sub. A bunch of people told him to knock it off, he didn't, and some got a bit more hostile. He came back claiming to have gotten phone calls threatening to rape him. An uninvolved third party continued to accuse two specific users based on their comments. The feminist answer that i see is to not doubt the claims of rape threats. However, the third party was making dangerous, baseless accusations and I see no problem telling them off. Even if the victim were making the accusations, in this specific situation, they could be disregarded because it's impossible for them to have identified the callers' reddit names (if any) through talking to them on the phone.