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What does that mean? (self.Vive)

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[–]500500[M] -29ポイント-28ポイント  (50子コメント)

It means that the /r/vive subreddit is not a social media asset of the HTC corporation. It is a subreddit for users of reddit and independent..

It means that /r/vive will reject any attempt by HTC to secure moderation positions and with it the ability to censor and dictate content.

It means that /r/vive mods will NOT TAKE PERKS and will report any entity that tries to offer bribes or compensation for moderator actions.

The role of moderators is just to ensure that the subreddit stays on topic and spam.

It is not to take perks or to take instruction from corporations.

It means that all subreddit business is kept in mod mail

Unfortunately, some of the moderators engaged in improper relationships with HTC and I judged it best to start fresh.

There was also some worry lack of action from the admins

A PM and a reply when I reported it to the admins https://i.imgur.com/rPPjH6I.png

A mod mail dump.
http://i.imgur.com/pmw3cWI.jpg

I can stress that the previous mod team were naive and easily misled . They did not understand the role of moderators.

edit:

[–]c0mmandhat 18ポイント19ポイント  (18子コメント)

Since this comment appears to be gaining upvotes, please note: This is not a "screw you, add the mod team back" threat. This is me trying to clear things up in a very blunt manner.

So the role of moderators is to screw up a good CSS theme and add a really blatant "the old mod team were being bribed" notice (that isn't even true)? Responded to here; "CSS doesn't hurt anyone... I was sick of corporate style, looking to overhaul it"

The modmail dump also does not include your own reply to any of this. So all I see is everyone saying "yes, we'd love to have someone helping out!" I forgot once again that reddit is special when it comes to PMs and doesn't show your own username, which hurts readbility in situations like these in my opinion.

You're handling this whole thing like a child; instead of talking with the HTC person in questsion to stop offering perks, you remove the entire mod team, add a couple randoms, report the HTC spokesperson with no warning, and expect no resistance at all. That's a nuke & pave method of moderating, and it has never helped anyone.

[–]DoubleDot7 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seems like it was an attempt at transparency. Could have been handled better, but I'd prefer an impartial mod team rather than one that's receiving perks, possibly in exchange for stifling any negative publicity.

[–]muchcharles 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why should he give a warning to HTC before reporting them for breaking the rules? That just gives them a chance to try and cover stuff up and make sure everyone "gets their story straight."

[–]c0mmandhat 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The account in question states that they're head of the PR team. as such, more then likely we are dealing with a single person who may not have read the rules correctly or all the way. If they wanted to break the rules, they'd have to go further up the chain then just "message the moderators", which as far as I can tell is the original method of contact.

It's the same reason you don't permaban someone outright for not reading the rules, unless your modding policy dictates you permaban or delete their account on the first offense.

[–]muchcharles 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Offering bribes to mods isn't something corporate shills need to get a pre-warning about. It isn't the same as posting a gif to r/games without reading the substantial content policy of that sub. It is straight out corruption.

[–]c0mmandhat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm aware of that (and posting gifs to /r/games and /r/gaming created by people behind the games happens far more often then you think). However, we also don't need to burn people at the stake. As far as I'm aware, this is HTC's first "foray" into uncommon social media (i.e. things that aren't facebook and twitter).

Granted, they should be well aware that corruption like that is unwelcome in any community, as well as the fact that "...We wanted to make sure the entire mod team were okay with [adding the account as a mod]" seems like they were going to try and figure out better perks to coerce /u/500500 into agreeing.

(/u/500500, no need to reply; I used the summoning method purely by accident, it's habit for me to type /u/ when naming a reddit user.)

[–]500500[M] 19ポイント20ポイント  (11子コメント)

My reply is in the modmail but not my account name beacause it is my inbox READ it

500500 says

"no, I don't think moderators hooking up with HTC social media is good for the community or of any benefit to this subreddit."

500500 says

"If HTC want to submit content to this subreddit and it meets our rules, then that is all there is to it. If that submission helps them create content for the tour, then good for them. I'm really not sure what they have in mind though. I just want to emphasise how simple any relationship should be."

The problem was that people were talking to HTC away from moderator mail and next minute there is a big push to add them as moderators. At the same time the HTC account was offering the moderator team PERKs. This is documented in the screenshots.

[–]c0mmandhat 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

I'm an idiot, I'll strike out that part of the post.

I'd still like to see a reply to the rest of my comment; in particular the very first sentence.

[–]500500 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

So the role of moderators is to screw up a good CSS theme and add a really blatant "the old mod team were being bribed" notice (that isn't even true)?

CSS is for fun. It doesn't affect anyone. This isn't a corporate subreddit where we don't have to give a shit. Obviously it could be something else but I was feeling a bit sick looking at the corporate stylings . I will leave it up for a bit to give your complaint some context but will look to overhaul all of it.

The note is a message to HTC Corporation who have been persistently trying to court the moderation team. I'm making it absolutely clear that /r/Vive will not accept bribes or perks. I am not saying the old mods were bribed. It didn't get near that but there was not enough resistance to HTC Corporate, not enough reporting and too much interest in talking to them offline. So as a minor point they were removed so that I could put some established accounts in the top moderation positions

[–]c0mmandhat 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

Fair enough.

What annoys me the most about all this is, as I and other have been saying, that this appears to be a nuke & pave rather then a sticky "we are the mod team and we won't accept bribes".

There's a whole bunch of what-ifs and but-thens that, to me, seem to outweigh the problems having a corporate account in moderator (or even as mentioned in a different comment thread, special flair and mod team list but nothing else) position would have. I'll air a few here, please don't feel a need to respond to them (or, for that matter, to this comment).

What If the account in question was truly trying to help? There are a few subreddits such as /r/oculus (though very few and far between) where there are official accounts doing nothing except what was offered here; free support and more official [product] related banner materials. Neither of which is in violation of Reddit rules, and sometimes encouraged.

What If you had just silently reported the bribe attempt? The account mentions that they headed the PR team, so you would've had Reddit mods emailing the very same person trying to get a position here. If there truly were perks being offered, you'd either see an email or a modmail about them being revoked, or all contact with that account would suddenly cease.

What If you asked to be included in that email cc chain? You're a mod and subreddit creator, right? Obviously you need to see what your mods were thinking. Yes, it's Big Brother like, but hands-off moderation can ruin a subreddit just as bad as a corporate controlled subreddit.

[–]JPHTC 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

500500 was asked to be a part of all discussions. We wanted to make sure it was ok with the whole moderation team.

[–]muchcharles 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

ok with the whole moderation team

To receive bribes of "perks"?

It is against reddit policy for you guys at HTC to be mods anyway:

https://www.reddit.com/wiki/moddiquette

Please don't:

  • Take moderation positions in communities where your profession, employment, or biases could pose a direct conflict of interest to the neutral and user driven nature of reddit.

[–]c0mmandhat 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

They've stated in a different comment chain that said perks were small things like "...being able to test out a stage at upcoming events beforehand". Essentially, some behind-the-scenes stuff that wouldn't amount to much. It's still a bad idea to offer perks, just that they weren't anything like being paid to prune bad opinions.

Edit: You aren't quoting reddit policy:

Moddiquette is an informal set of guidelines for moderators of reddit. Please abide by it the best you can.

[–]muchcharles 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Of course they say that after they are exposed. That's not what was written in their offer. They just generically offered perks.

Not sure if you saw my edit, but Reddit policy is that corporate shills can't be mods:

https://www.reddit.com/wiki/moddiquette

Please don't:

  • Take moderation positions in communities where your profession, employment, or biases could pose a direct conflict of interest to the neutral and user driven nature of reddit.

edit: it is an informal set of guidelines because the owners of reddit like to have more discretion than a formal set of rules would give, not so that corporate shills can just ignore the statement: "Please abide by it the best you can."

[–]c0mmandhat 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's possible that you asked, but he didn't respond, or he misinterpreted a few things in whichever conversations he saw. The last What If at the bottom is in response to his statement that "there was a need to discuss things offline", and "a big push to add them to the mod team".

[–]JPHTC 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes that is most likely what happened. Had he simply responded, "we don't feel that it is a good idea for you to be a part of the moderation team" that would have been fine. As I said initially we were only trying to help the sub grow so deeper conversation about the Vive could occur between more people. In retrospect, I wish the team waited for his verdict before granting moderation privileges so all of this could have been avoided.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

too much interest in talking to them offline.

Could you point out where such interest was displayed? I was never made aware of talking to them offline. In fact, I think that would be a bit difficult seeing as we are geographically spread out.

[–]RealmBreaker 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Unfortunately, it seems you pulled the trigger on this sub a little earlier than it could have been, if at all. This is a subreddit about HTC Vive, why wouldn't HTC themselves want to help with the free PR this subreddit already automatically brings it? You also obviously have enough power to kick everyone out like you so did, but still couldn't handle having someone from the subreddit's namesake come and provide support in any way they saw fit? I find it very kneejerk, and awfully shortsighted.

Why do I care? This subreddit seemed pretty awesome, but knowing some dude who controls it like a dictator can, and has exercised their complete control over other moderators due to an unfounded ideal really just makes this subreddit not worth people's time.

Whats the focus here? The Vive? or the moderator team? It's got HTC's product name on it for pete's sake.

[–]muchcharles 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Read the alleged dump. HTC offered perks in exchange for becoming moderators here.

[–]500500 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is a subreddit about HTC Vive, why wouldn't HTC themselves want to help with the free PR this subreddit already automatically brings it? Y

I can't handle HTC Corporation courting the moderation team and I cannot handle it when there is not an outright objection to it.

If HTC want to post here they can. They get the same treatment as every other reddit account. Hopefully their content drives upvotes.

knowing some dude who controls it like a dictator can, and has exercised their complete control over other moderators due to an unfounded ideal really just makes this subreddit not worth people's time.

That is the nature of reddit. Every top mod has complete control when it comes down to it. Sometimes it makes a sub shit. Sometimes it saves a sub from having corporate accounts installed as moderators and the censorship and generally shittyness that goes with that.

Also, please realise that the subreddit runs off automoderator. Every post and comment here gets approved. A few reposts and really off topic things are taken down with a reason. The moderators should NOT be important here. They are simply janitors.

[–]RealmBreaker 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't handle HTC Corporation courting the moderation team and I cannot handle it when there is not an outright objection to it.

You seem to consider having an audience with one person from htc "courting". If i was in talks with the creator of the product im inadvertenly promoting with my subreddit, you sure as hell can believe ill be very interested in helping. Wether your definition of support from them is "bribe the mod team to stifle negativity" before even having it happen is jumping to conclusions. Ill give you that you arent crazy for believing that however, its reasonable conjecture given this day and age. There just wasn't any push from your end to resolve this. (if what has been shared is true from all parties).

That is the nature of reddit. Every top mod has complete control when it comes down to it. Sometimes it makes a sub shit. Sometimes it saves a sub from having corporate accounts installed as moderators and the censorship and generally shittyness that goes with that.

I suppose then, given the actions you took earlier today, that you have the power to remove mods anyways if there really was stifling of content. You just decided to act before any evidence confirming your fears. I just don't see why the silence from your end.

Also, please realise that the subreddit runs off automoderator. Every post and comment here gets approved. A few reposts and really off topic things are taken down with a reason. The moderators should NOT be important here. They are simply janitors.

You're right. But you obviously see yourself as more than just a janitor considering you just got rid of all the other janitors due to a miscommunication error.

I see this whole thing as being centered around the fact that HTC's employee who reached out to the community instantly means hes here to destroy "everything you hold dear to". Im exagerating, i know. I just dont find this decision very clear in the end, and it has unfortunately set this subreddit's banner to a goomba. Like whats up with that?

Edit; spelling.

[–]linknewtab 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If HTC want to post here they can. They get the same treatment as every other reddit account. Hopefully their content drives upvotes.

Would you be willing to give HTC accounts an official flair?

[–]0-cares-given 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

I can stress that the previous mod team were naive and easily misled . They did not understand the role of moderators.

Is that why you removed them without their consent?

[–]500500 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

They added an HTC Corporate account as a moderator without my consent.

The HTC corporate account promised them perks and they did not object or report it.

I may add back a couple of the moderators but I want to fill the top moderator positions with some established reddit users first. You also need to understand that the moderators here did very little. There are no rules in this subreddit and everything gets automatically approved

[–]0-cares-given 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Who started this sub?

[–]BI_Joe 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

500500 (that's why he can remove the others)

[–]muchcharles 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can't believe you are getting downvoted over this. The perk offers are abhorent if true and /u/rift-vr's post to /r/oculus didn't mention them at all.

[–]malibar1 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

they probably did not want to share information with you because you seem to be so sensitive to it and take information very poorly and overreact instead of talking it out. i had an old room mate the same way, if you get angry when people tell you things then they will not want to tell you things anymore...

[–]RIFT-VR -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The HTC corporate account promised them perks and they did not object or report it.

Why, so you could ignore it just like you ignored the rest of our attempts to contact you? We all assumed "perks" meant picking their brains / getting resources like graphics.

You also need to understand that the moderators here did very little.

In a brand new sub with auto-approved submissions and not a lot of content? Yeah -- kind of hard to find actual moderation to do.

You got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. The first step is removing the tinfoil hat. The second is learning how to communicate. It's truly unfortunate that you just happened to be the first person to grab the "Vive" sub name.

[–]2flock 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I support this vision. Can I be a moderator?

[–]500500 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

ok

[–]MRxPifko 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll take this time to submit my application as well, please! I support HTC personally, but I want them to succeed on their own merits.

[–]CsmicPerspective 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm sorry but what perks are you referring to?

The offer of helping design the subs banner? That's literally the only thing I can see here.

Unless I've missed something completely, this seems like an over reaction.

The HtC mod clearly described his intentions, you would retain complete control of his capabilities, and no perks of any kind were offered other than design help..

[–]DrewNumberTwo 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

They didn't just offer support for the subreddit, as /u/JPHTC explained:

We were hoping to give the moderation team perks for growing this community and had hopes of working with them to test our system themselves so they could be among the most informed.

So at the very least, they offered to let the mod team test the Vive. But the way it's written seems to me like they were planning on giving them other things, as well. Maybe that's not the case, but it certainly wasn't clear, and the explanation given doesn't really add much information.

I don't think HTC had plans to take over, but giving them a mod account is giving them power over the sub to a certain degree, and plans change. It's just not a good idea. This situation could have been handled better, but I think /u/500500 has the right idea.

[–]CsmicPerspective 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gotcha. Thanks!

Yup, mods getting perks including vive kits is over the line. Eh, still think it could have been handled more maturely, but that makes a lot more sense. Cheers man.

[–]Thoras 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The mod mail really shed light on this whole situation. Thanks for the clarity. You've got a new subscriber.

[–]Ghs2 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

See, now the response to that, in my eyes, is "Oh, sorry, we can't allow perks."

The current situation seems like a very strange response.

[–]CsmicPerspective -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

What. Perks.

I read the dump and other than design help for banners I don't see a single offer.

[–]c0mmandhat 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's a link in the original comment where /u/500500 reports the original email offering perks to the reddit admins.

[–]CsmicPerspective 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup, thanks for that. Saw it. Makes a lot more sense now.

[–]500500 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

https://i.imgur.com/rPPjH6I.png

[–]Draumbr 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That last part sounds amazing, though.

[–]CsmicPerspective 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks, I missed that.

[–]TotesMessenger -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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[–]RIFT-VR -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They did not understand the role of moderators.

Neither do you, apparently.