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The Origins of Privilege (newyorker.com)

skepticalbipartisan が 投稿

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[–]workingclasswoman 43ポイント44ポイント  (1子コメント)

This was a great article. It inspired me to do a little unpacking of my own advantages/disadvantages.

I am not a strong woman. There are things that I just cannot do. The stigma that "women are weaker" is something I struggle with in real life. This does not mean pickle jars are a way of "the man" oppressing me. There are inherent disadvantages and advantages within this stereotype. It means that when I need help, I am likely to get it. There is an underlying sympathy that comes with asking for assistance.

I feel ashamed that I am feeding the notion that women need men to help them while simultaneously benefitting from it's existence. What is the alternative? What solution do feminists have for someone like me? If I was raised to believe women were supposed to be strong and not need the help of a man, I wonder if I'd be so comfortable asking for help.

Then it hit me. The parallel to men's issues become stunningly obvious. This is exactly what society expects from them. Knowing how embarrassing it is for me to admit I need help, I only now have considered how uncomfortable I've made some men feel when they were incapable of doing so.

To use the pickle jar cliche as an example here: The shame I feel when asking for help happens twofold to the man who attempts to open it and fails. I've seen this happen numerous times but I've never given it much thought.

With this newfound perspective, I'm starting to see parallels in other areas of Patriarchal Oppression that affect both genders.

I don't feel safe walking alone at night. When I see a man is about to cross my path I feel an instinctual fear for my own safety. I've never considered why I feel this way. Nothing has ever happened to me to illicit this natural response but it happens all the same. Where is this anxiety coming from?

At some point in my life I must have been taught this idea that men should be feared. I didn't wake up one day and decide that I should be scared for my life when passing a stranger. I did not choose to feel this way yet I feel it all the same.

Does this mean it is a privilege for men to walk down the street without feeling petrified? I cannot fathom the toll it would take on one's sense of humanity to be looked upon as a monster; something to be feared. I've personally crossed the street to avoid the possibility of becoming a victim. What does it say to those men that see people like me avoiding them like the plague? Is being feared a trait most men strive towards?

There are many other examples that are surfacing now that I'm seeing the bigger picture. A lot of the things being labelled as misogyny affect men in different ways. I'm starting to see how this word isn't a fair assessment of what is really happening here.

There is a certain sense of attachment to the idea that we women are oppressed. Feminist theory is a useful tool in opening our eyes to trends in society that lead to disadvantages. I've personally fallen victim to the tunnel vision that occurs when you focus on these discrepancies. We are still in the infancy of intersectional thinking and I believe the next step is abandoning our cling to academia that dictates our perception.

I will no longer argue whether "female privilege" exists because academia dictates that it cannot. I'm ready to accept the benefits that come with being a woman and understand the baggage that comes with being a man.

I am giving up the idea that women cannot be oppressors. I'm willing to take responsibility for the amount of control/options I've been awarded with that are not offered to other human beings. I cannot continue denying the privileges that come with my race, gender, sexual orientation, class, etc. To deny my own advantages is to dismiss the disadvantages someone will face for being different.

When a man tells me he has been discriminated for being a man, I will listen and I will believe. How can I in good conscience expect the same level of respect if I'm not offering it in return? We are more than the labels we choose or are forced to wear. Let's look past these superficial qualities and stop using them as weapons and shields.

Let's start treating each other as the equals we are claiming to be.

[–]azazelcrowley 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you think of a reason why you didn't notice the duality nature of sexism before? Out of curiosity.

(By the way: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v408/n6809/images/408154aa.2.jpg )

The perceived lack of people having this insight you are talking about is a huge driving force in anti-feminism and the MRM.

I'm aware this is a feminist sub, and i'm only just back, but I think this is worth mentioning for this post, because the thread here is great.

I think a lot of peoples understanding of sexism has a female gaze problem.

Women developed and codified the theory of sexism and how to view it. This led to people interpreting each sexism event as one that victimizes women in favor of men, when as you point out that's not really the case, and that view may well prevent actually solving the problem. I also think this contributes to the lack of men in the feminist movement, because what it's talking about is a completely alien perspective to men. Not only that, but as I point out elsewhere, it encourages men to view the issue in terms of how it effects women, and to act on sexism to help women. Almost like, you know, their wellbeing was your responsibility. As opposed to allowing men to develop an internal framework to view sexism and oppose it out of self-respect and such. I think this problem means a lot of men just give in when women make appeals to traditionalist sexism, with no woman to protect, there's no problem, and even if you think there is, arguing you are being discriminated against to a woman as a man is something a lot of men just give up at the thought of, some don't even consider it, some try and have women who DO know this but still knowingly abuse their social power to derail the criticism, some try and women who lack this perspective on sexism dismiss the idea, and some try and succeed. This ALSO drives anti-feminist sentiment and the sense that it is a supremacy movement. Allowing men an internal framework changes that.

There's been a problem of people insisting over and over that it's a vase. Then men take a look and say you're a liar, it's two faces. Both fail to understand that the existence of one brings forth the other.

All sexist incidents are a matter of interpretation on whether they are misogyny or misandry. I think the feminist movement has made the mistake of asserting a particular interpretation as gospel, for understandable reasons, but that this has caused it to make big mistakes in terms of policy, as well as alienated potential converts. I've seen some feminists agree with the duality model, but not as many as i've seen asserting All Is Misogyny And The Patriarchy. Then again, i've also seen the former view grow slightly over time.

From your new perspective, would you agree that prior to you realizing this, your old worldview now seems quite hateful, or apathetic towards mens problems?

You now understand why people say feminists hate men and don't care about their issues. It's because a lot of them don't, because of this problem you just overcame. What they care about is womens perspective on mens issues. If you want to know how to get a much better wave of feminism going, it's to emphasize this point.

Now, this is where it gets real hairy.

You pointed out the academia is clung to.

How we'd put it in the MRM is,

Feminism has been institutionalized, and this results in the oppression of men. Do you see how they could think that?

What we mean is, a bunch of people who do not understand this revelation of yours are enforcing their view on society and indoctrinating people into believing it. Added to that is the cultural idea that you should be hostile to people challenging this system. And then you just how good old vested interests and money to keep it all together.

(Difficult to say "Gender studies was all only half the story, my degree is almost pointless without talking to men about their experiences too, unless i'm aiming to just entrench biases for women." Far easier to say "No, what I learned at university is the whole truth. It has to be. My paycheck depends on it." And when the latter sort of people start piling up in a profession, especially one where your peers have influence over your success, you've got a big problem for anyone who wants to tell the emperor he's naked. This dynamic has happened with a lot of stuff before. Feminists on the ground may be wildly different to what "Manufactured" feminists are.)

And now you've got a bunch of professionals pushing the same flaw in the media and in institutions and such. Then you throw on the penance overtones that occasionally rear their head of "Well, mens complaints about anything are meh because women have it so hard and have for centuries, so anything that happens/we do is just payback." in some women, though not many (And more depressingly, some men say this type of crap too), but it still forms a part of mens experience of feminism as an idea, that women can and some have used this to justify doing things that they acknowledge are petty and sexist bullshit, but that they don't care, something which is impossible to justify without lacking this insight, the feeling of demonization for all problems, all of the problems stemming from your old perspective, basically, drive the notion that feminism is a hate movement.

Now add that, from our perspective, feminists actively campaign against and shut down or try to discredit people who reject the patriarchal model of sexism, thus keeping the flawed view in place.

From that perspective, do you now understand why the MRM and anti-feminists think the feminist movement is oppressive to men and such? Because I think understanding why they think that, in addition to encouraging people to have this revelation, will probably be necessary for gender equality to ever succeed. Normally I see shit like "they are just afraid of losing their privilege." or "They just don't understand feminism.", but as you're now aware, that's not the case. I think feminists who believe in the duality model need to be a lot louder in their advocacy and pro-active in challenging feminists who don't. I don't think we've got much of a chance otherwise.

The MRM considers "Feminism" to be your view, prior to your revelation. Lots of MRAs would deny you are a feminist now.

I personally don't care what people call themselves, but do personally use feminist the same way the MRM does, because there's not a word for it otherwise that i'm aware of.

This is also why the menslib sub was received both well and mockingly. To the MRM, the notion of a mens movement that utilizes the female-gaze ideology is laughable, especially since you cannot reject fundamental parts of that gaze as innacurate, despite the fact it's regularly speculatory about mens reasons for behaving certain ways (A direct consequence of trying to build a complete narrative from only one genders perspective while still trying to figure out the other ones motivations, rationales, etc. Feminism fails to properly evaluate men, but is true of womens experience of sexism and their thought process in response to it. And yes, even their speculation on the motivations of men are interesting when they differ from mens actual motivations and rationalizations for behavior and stuff is good. That's useful. It's interesting data. We can use that to get clues for where sexism may be lurking in our behaviors and outlooks. It's why I support the mens rights movement too, even when they speculate on why women sometimes do things and some of the speculation is that they are just evil and hate men/are totally selfish. I think those moments are interesting, because they show a disconnect between the genders. There is very little point in trying to combat a problem if you don't allow yourselves to openly talk and engage in it. We should be saying out entire opinions about the other gender without fear of sexist remark, so that the data can be looked over, compared, and then we can discuss why certain things are inaccurate, or hurtful, etc. We shouldn't be avoiding the appearance of being sexist, if we're trying to fix sexism. It's counter productive. It restricts us from being totally open and frank with our opinions. I think the call out culture prevents progress.). Their assertion that feminism being challenged is a mens rights issues entirely true, for their conception of feminism.

I've previously said that whether or not the feminist movement is the movement for gender equality depends on whether it can adapt to duality. If it insists on retaining a gynocentric view of sexism, it isn't the movement for gender equality and never was, we merely mistook it for one. If it adapts, then this is just another evolution of the movement.