全 77 件のコメント

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

What are the actual problems with the Marxian labor theory of value?

Note: If you say marginalism, the subjective theory of value, or diamond-water, I will slap you. Those are counters to the Ricardian labor theory of value, not the Marxian version.

The Marxian labor theory of value states that since all value ultimately requires human labor, the amount of "socially necessary labor time" in the economy determines the productive capacity. Even capital ultimately requires labor to be stored in it over several periods to exist, and indeed this formulation of capital was used by both sides of the Cambridge Capital Controversy.

So what problems does this idea have? Sure, the whole problem of aggregation via stored labor in capital and "socially necessary" is a bit clunky, but so are the aggregation mechanics to get to K, L, or EL in Solow/MRW; indeed, as per CCC aggregating K is even MORE clunky than aggregating socially necessary labor time. This doesn't allow for analyzing income shares going to capital, labor, and skilled labor the way a Cobb-Douglas formulation might, but on the other hand it provides a lens to remember that ultimately capital requires labor to be stored over various periods first. So what are the main problems?

Tagging /u/The_Old_Gentleman in case I missed something.

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So what problems does this idea have? Sure, the whole problem of aggregation via stored labor in capital and "socially necessary" is a bit clunky

Other things are clunky, sure, but that's not an excuse to hand wave away clunkiness (and I would discuss the CCC at some later time). "Socially necessary" has some kind of valuation at its core.

What is socially necessary? Why is it socially necessary?

To me, socially necessary is whatever individuals are willing to buy and trade for. It is "social" since society is just a bunch of individuals following their preferences. It is "necessary" because society dictates it via exchange. So how do we determine what people are willing to buy and trade for?

Oh, subjective theory of value. Whoops, looks like STV wins again. Maybe that's filppant, but seriously the "socially necessary" bit is the sand upon which the castle of Marxian LTV is built.

[–]EsoteriCola"I have some serious economics training" 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

What would you say is the key difference between the Marxian and the Ricardian labour theory of value?

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ricardo focuses on relative prices (this should cost proportional to how much effort it took!) and is refuted by marginalism. Marx focuses on productive capacity (how much we can produce depends on how much labor we can muster, including the labor from previous periods we stored in our capital) and is...uhh...something to Solow Swan or Mankiw Romer Weil.

[–]bdubs91Maestro Today and Maestro Forever 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm no expert (a.k.a. please don't tag me in /r/badsocialscience if I'm wrong) but doesn't treating capital as "dead labor" cause problems were prices diverge from value in exchange?

[–]EveRommelDAY TUK UR JOBZ, didn't want it anyways, already replaced 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I've seen this talked about here before but I tried to articulate it in a conversation last night and realized I didn't grasp it completely.

Is Bernie Sanders 1 trillion dollar infastructure building plan good or bad economics?

[–]Jericho_Hill#StickyLivesMatter #OverthrowTheMods 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

I just finished a 9 month project to complete a beta build of a tool our folks in the field can use to do basic statistical analysis and hypothesis testing on the fly without needing to do anything but clicks and selections. In other words, I've brought statistical analysis to laypersons and in a manner that is consistent with research standards (its idiot proof).

When this rolls out to full deployment, it will likely save my agency millions per annum.

Holy hell, I am so pumped.

[–]urnbabyurnNeoPanglossian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So basically you replaced your job with a robot. See ya' on the job market. Chaiwallah!

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Apparently government workers aren't that unproductive after all!

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

UGH I am so jealous.

I am not working on this project, but I am advising some people working on solving the same thing.

[–]EveRommelDAY TUK UR JOBZ, didn't want it anyways, already replaced 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

5 bucks says some idiot some where will break it so bad you will have to tell them to just not use it ever again

[–]Jericho_Hill#StickyLivesMatter #OverthrowTheMods 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's why we are in beta. There is a guy in one of our field offices who is my prime suspect for this. He is beta tester #1

[–]bdubs91Maestro Today and Maestro Forever 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There has to be a theorem. For all good programs X there exists some idiot Y who will break it, lowering welfare for all

[–]EsoteriCola"I have some serious economics training" 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd like to give a shoutout to /u/irwin08 who has pretty much single-handedly kept /r/memenomics (a highly underrated sub) afloat despite the massive competition from /r/PraxAcceptance.

[–]irwin08STAGFLATION IS COMING, BUY GOLD NOW!!1! 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Question 1: So I've been looking into the Great Depression lately and I keep seeing this sources say that "overproduction" was a major cause. That just doesn't seem right too me. Basically they say stuff was overproduced so prices fell and those industries that overproduces suffered, but wouldn't that be a relatively short adjustment as unprofitable firms left the market to other industries and prices rose until the market was in equilibrium again? If prices were declining everywhere wouldn't that be the fault of the Fed and not "overproduction"? So is overproduction a legitimate explanation for at least part of the Depression?

Question 2 I am picking up "The Great Contraction" - Friedman/Schwartz soon and am pretty excited. Is there anything I should pay particular attention to when reading it? Also is there any outdated info in it that I should be aware of. Oh and should I supplement it with any other papers or books?

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

One potential is that if enough firms go out of business quickly enough, all their former employees will be unemployed. PIH says that they should just assume this situation to be temporary and maintain old levels of consumption by borrowing or running down old savings (in which case they should be able to find new work in more productive sectors before too long), but there are some reasons why that might fail. If finding new work would require drastic retraining (i.e. their unemployment is at least partially structural) or if they think that the economy will be in a long slump, they might revise down their expectations of their permanent income, leading to less spending now. If there's a financial crisis and credit is tight, they might be unable to borrow the money needed. Or waves arms animal spirits.

At any rate, if some combination of these occurs, the newly unemployed will reduce their spending. This decreases aggregate demand and can put even more firms out of business, keeping the economy in a positive feedback loop without monetary (or fiscal?) expansion to return demand to appropriate levels.

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or waves arms animal spirits.

Kek

At any rate, if some combination of these occurs, the newly unemployed will reduce their spending. This decreases aggregate demand and can put even more firms out of business, keeping the economy in a positive feedback loop without monetary (or fiscal?) expansion to return demand to appropriate levels.

Though with the Great Depression everyone basically agrees it was the money supply drying up because the Fed hecked up.

[–]bdubs91Maestro Today and Maestro Forever 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

No it was a negative TFP

  • Prescott.

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't even know what a negative TFP shock is.

Did we just forget how to put stuff together? Like we wake up one day and say "oh gee wilikers, I have a degree in mechanical engineering but I don't know how a pulley system works anymore!"?

[–]CatFortuneにゃんぱす! 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

Publishers put this in the corner of the pages for my Econ 101 textbook. This class will be legit.

[–]UltSomnia 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just see a horse turning into another horse.

[–]goodcleanchristianfu 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your econ textbook is an Animorphs novel?

[–]CatFortuneにゃんぱす! 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah my professor is literally Dr. K.A. Applegate so she's pimping her own textbook UGH.

[–]rafaellvandervaart 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

What did Hayek get right? Where did Hayek go wrong?

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hayek did right on his prices as information thing (AER, Hayek 1945). I also think he did right as a social critic, but I'm a libertarian so I'm biased.

He done goofed on the ABCT.

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

<high five>

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

What did Hayek get right?

"Hayek’s ideas that the price system is a consolidator of information and a distributor of knowledge, as well as simply a way of assuring efficiency and exchange, is probably as penetrating and original an idea as microeconomics produced in the 20th century."

  • Larry Summers

Where did Hayek went wrong?

He had an incorrect model of the business cycle (though it had many important features that showed up in later 20th century models - it still made a contribution!).

[–]rafaellvandervaart 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

though it had many important features that showed up in later 20th century models - it still made a contribution

Can you elaborate on this?

[–]urnbabyurnNeoPanglossian 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

He had an incorrect model of the business cycle (though it had many important features that showed up in later 20th century models - it still made a contribution!).

This is normal though. "incorrect" models point to what assumptions matter. So for example, Barro's strong Ricardian equivalence result is of interest even though we don't live in such a world. It points out what assumptions drive the difference.

Economists study many different worlds. The real world happens to be just one of them.

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep! Exactly!

[–]EveRommelDAY TUK UR JOBZ, didn't want it anyways, already replaced 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I tried to go to other subreddits to get more economic views and the lack of links to reputable sources makes me sad so I have to come back here.

Speaking of which can someone link HE3 excellent breakdown of Sanders bad econ that he made a few months ago, I've lost the link and I'm surrounded by people feeling the bern.

[–]WearyTunes 5ポイント6ポイント  (13子コメント)

Any opinions on the recent WsJ article about the price of Sanders' program and the responses?

It seems like WsJ was being a bit unfair but I honestly can't tell if the people contradicting them are doing any better.

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The it's wrong because WSJ is owned by Murdoch circlejerk is annoying. One of the papers they cited was even from UMass!

[–]The_Doc29 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Here is my question to the users here. Healthcare in the United States costs approximately 3 Trillion a year and people are encouraged to sacrifice entrepreneur opportunities to work for companies with great healthcare plans to get coverage.

1) Can free market competition (eliminating state lines restricting competition) drastically reduce health insurance to match the estimated 1.5 trillion in single payer?

2) Should people be required to have health insurance like the rest of the world in which healthcare is cheaper per person?

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not a health care economist, but I would be highly surprised if there were any single policy that could serve as a panacea.

The vast majority of health care dollars go towards the elderly, who simply have less life left and benefit less from a new hip than a 40 year old would (not to mention Medicare being the largest long term driver of our future budget deficit). While death panels and taking granny off the machine may be potent catch phrases, the fact is that we need better rationing of care for the elderly; care of the elderly isn't the sole purpose of the health care system, or for that matter of the government in 15 years.

A system where your employer pays for your health insurance, which pays for your health care, is absurdly inefficient in myriad ways (creates artificial barriers to moving jobs, employers won't have the same incentives as you, etc.). The fact that we allow this is weird; the fact that we subsidize it with tax breaks that don't apply to people who buy their own insurance is unconscionable.

Allowing competition across state lines (and reducing barriers to entry for medical professionals who have to apply for separate licenses in each state) might help. So might letting nurse practitioners and physician's assistants have more autonomy over basic tasks that don't necessarily need an expensive MD supervising. But I would be surprised if those were cure alls. People used to say that the key driver of health care costs was unnecessary tests caused by "defensive medicine" from doctors scared of lawsuits and that tort reform would end this, but the empirical evidence when this happened in Texas is weak. People used to say that more access to relatively cheap primary and preventative care could prevent more expensive ER trips; when this was tried via RCT in Oregon, health outcomes improved, but costs went up. So I would be very suspicious when someone says one policy is all we need. But by all means, let's try everything.

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

people are encouraged to sacrifice entrepreneur opportunities to work for companies with great healthcare plans to get coverage.

Results from the ACA have shown this to be false (technically among 18-25 year olds).

Evidence from Medicare (Medicaid?) have shown that people change careers but no evidence suggests (yet) that government healthcare will increase entrepreneurial activity.

[–]The_Doc29 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wouldn't you agree though that restricting employees to company healthcare plans hurts the labor market?

http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_6Gw7RTJefXPg0o4

[–]irondeepbicycleI got 99 problems but technological unemployment ain't one 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

I thought the WSJ made a handful of decent points and the WaPo made a handful of decent points. Most of the discussion revolves around Bernie's health care plan which hasn't been released so it's all speculation.

The larger points I took are 1) it is dishonest to discuss policy while only describing the benefits, without mentions of cost, and 2) The only way Bernie will be able to pay for what he wants is via middle class tax increases. If these facts are made clear I think he loses a bit of his support.

[–]urnbabyurnNeoPanglossian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And it's dishonest to talk about costs which aren't opportunity costs. The cost of moving to a new home is the difference in prices. So the cost of instituting some universal public healthcare option is the difference in spending to current programs. And it should also note the savings to individuals. We really want to know the changes on aggregate spending and coverage.

Like the WaPo article also points out, it's not a simple question of new spending. It's a question of how that spending is distributed.

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

I was shocked by the amount of pushback. The WSJ estimates is pretty consistent with the G/GDP you see in Scandinavian countries. Isn't that the goal? And hasn't that been fairly explicit?

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Isn't that the goal? And hasn't that been fairly explicit?

It is the goal of Sanders but many Republicans and Democrats don't want that. Nor do they want the increased taxes. Sanders' Colonels of le reddit army might not even want that.

However, Bernie expects us to believe that we can fund all of it via punitive taxes on the rich and corporations. Also a financial transactions tax.

So Bernie either needs to fess up that we will have to raise taxes on middle income earners or borrow more money to fund these programs or back off on his programs.

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

However, Bernie expects us to believe that we can fund all of it via punitive taxes on the rich and corporations. Also a financial transactions tax.

Ugh.

This is why the besttrousers/wumbotarian dialogues are so useful. The shitty reason on our respective "sides" are often transparent. I sort of implicity assumed that people knew there was a tax/spending tradeoff.

[–]irondeepbicycleI got 99 problems but technological unemployment ain't one 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just checked through his campaign website, and the only taxes he proposes are a carbon tax and a Tobin tax. Like Wumba said, both are rhetorically framed punitively - evil Wall Street, evil polluters, etc. He hasn't identified a funding source for his infrastructure expansion and he hasn't released a health care plan at all (because he can't pay for it?).

If Bernie were being scrutinized like a more serious candidate he'd have to answer for this. I think the WSJ article is a sign that people are starting to look at his policies, and it's absolutely fair game to ask how he'll pay for stuff.

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The defenses are kind of funny. 'The WSJ is wrong! His plans are so fuzzy and ill-defined that their cost is impossible to estimate!' That's not a good thing, people!

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is why the besttrousers/wumbotarian dialogues are so useful.

:D

[–]Melab -2ポイント-1ポイント  (26子コメント)

I keep on hearing about the supposed greatness of the Case theorem from some people. They tell me that issues lije pollution or whatever can be negotiated "on the market". I'm at a loss by the apparent stupidity of this argument. Are these people forgetting the contention that one shouldn't have to negotiate with polluters to get them to stop? Seems like a terribly confused normative argument (not the theorem).

[–]Polisskolan2 5ポイント6ポイント  (25子コメント)

The Coase theorem is not a normative argument.

[–]urnbabyurnNeoPanglossian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is a normative Coase theorem and positive Coase theorem. These are presented by Cooter and Ulen in their textbook but its also based on a paper of theirs.

The normative Coase theorem says to allocate property rights in order to minimize transaction costs.

The positive Coase theorem is the standard one attributed to Stigler.

The contrast is made to the normative and positive "Hobbes Theorems". Its just the contrapositive of the Coase.

When transaction costs are high, the initial assignment of property rights matters for efficiency.

Or in normative form:

Rights should be allocated to their highest value use in the presence of high transaction costs.

Coase can be made into a normative argument here. But the original paper of Coase was obviously positivistic and hinted at both of these formulations. Most of the modern account of Coase to focus on the positive coase theorem above, whereas half of the Social Cost paper is dedicated to the Hobbesian formulation.

[–]Melab -1ポイント0ポイント  (23子コメント)

Of course. I am talking about the people who imply that negotiating with polluters is a solution.

[–]Oztafan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, under the assumptions of the theorem it kinda is.

You assume that pollution is not something inherently "bad" but rather a by-product of whatever production activity you're looking at. In that case the polluter and the "pollutee" can come together and work things out.

(Assuming well-defined property rights, no transaction costs, ...)

[–]marpool 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Negotiation with polluters is a potential solution. If people affected pay the polluters to pollute less then the social equilibrium can be achieved. However at pointed out above negotiation is hard(the assumption of negligible transaction costs in coase's theorem unrepresentative of reality) so it wont be effective.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yes, it is a potential solution. But why should people who are subjected to pollution have to pay to begin with?

[–]marpool 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

From an economic point of view whoever pays polluter or nearby person is just a transfer from one to the other and so objectively neither is better.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is not a matter of economics.

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

They...don't necessarily. If you assign property rights to clean air as opposed to the right to pollute, then polluters have to pay to pollute. Hell, that's the whole point of the Coase Theorem; with low enough transaction costs, it wouldn't matter except from a distributional perspective who you initially gave the property rights to.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you assign property rights to clean air as opposed to the right to pollute, then polluters have to pay to pollute.

That sounds incredibly bizarre.

[–]PonderayFollows an AR(1) process 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not the best example the transaction costs of everyone negotiating with an air polluter would be massive.

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How so?

[–]neshalchanderman 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

My housemate used to plays music which annoyed me in our flat.

Apparently I shouldn't have negotiated with him to play something else because that adult course of action is totally immoral.

Thank you for your wisdom /u/melab.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Oh, come on. I made no claim about the morality of negotiating. I'm criticizing the suggestion that people who think polluters simply shouldn't pollute should negotiation over regulation. Why would someone who thinks that be persuaded that they should have to pay polluters not to pollute?

[–]wumbotarianmodeled as if Noah Smith was a can opener 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh, come on. I made no claim about the morality of negotiating.

You just said we "shouldn't" negotiate with polluters. This means that negotiation is bad - which means there is a claim about the morality of negotiating.

I'm criticizing the suggestion that people who think polluters simply shouldn't pollute should negotiation over regulation.

But the thing is that people could (and they do - I asked roommates to turn down music before). And if pollution is such a bother to them, they will as the benefit of no pollution exceeds the cost of having to negotiate.

Why would someone who thinks that be persuaded that they should have to pay polluters not to pollute?

The "Coase" Theorem doesn't state that this should be the solution but rather it is a type of solution.

Furthermore, delving deeper into Coase, who exactly has a claim to pollution? If there was a factory spewing SO2, but no one was around to be affeted by it, was thr factory polluting? If soneone moves in after the fact, is the factory polluting or is the person moving close to the factory infringing on thr factory?

It is not so cut and dry, pollution. But your argument is seeped in "polluters wrong, polluters bad" which is normative to its core. The "Coase"Theorem is a positive, not normative, argument.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Again though, if party A thinks they should not have to pay someone to not pollute, then why would anyone think they are going to accept the Coasean solution.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, I am talking specifically about the people who offer it as a solution, which is normative.

[–]neshalchanderman 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

...

I'm at a loss by the apparent stupidity of this argument. Are these people forgetting the contention that one shouldn't have to negotiate with polluters to get them to stop?

How does the roommate situation resolve itself?

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Should I have to negotiate with vandals?

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

You seem to be ignoring the crucial role that well defined property rights play in Coasean bargaining. Those who wish to violate a property right must negotiate with the holders of the those property rights. So assuming you own your home, the vandals have to negotiate with you.

While libertarians may love the idea of Coasean bargaining, it's not possible with some anarchist lawless pipe dream. It requires a government that has defined and assigned every conceivable property right (right to clean air and water or the right to pollute, right to silence or the right to play music, etc.) and can enforce them perfectly.

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Those last two are not property rights!

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

By "property," I don't just mean physical property. I mean rights that imply limits on other people's rights. My property rights to my home limit your right to move around, as you can no longer be in my home without my permission. Likewise, my right to silence limits your right to play loud music, or vice versa depending on how things are initially set up.

[–]Polisskolan2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think that's a very appealing solution either. The only thing the theorem says is that the resulting allocation is efficient. In general, economic results are not enough to support a political position. You need to throw some political values/philosophy into the mix too. Which is why it always annoys me to see people talking about whether some policy is good or bad economics. It depends on what you want to achieve, and what you should achieve is outside the domain of economics.

[–]say_wot_againConfirmed for Google bigwig 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

We do not negotiate with terrorists polluters.

Given that a LOT of things create pollution and you're unlikely to get pollution to stop altogether, what do you have against the idea of negotiating with polluters?

[–]Melab 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm critizing an argument. That is all.