108
109

A poster on /r/watchpeopledie upsets Americans when he claims Americans are too afraid to bomb mosques. (np.reddit.com)

hideftv77 が 投稿

並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A
あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

I do want to begrudgingly point out that while less than 25% of Muslims are Islamists and even a smaller percentage of those men and women are actively extremists attempting to kill Westerners, that a significant amount of Muslims outside that 25% do believe that death is an appropriate punishment for non-believers.

I'm not saying it makes stereotyping and Islamophobia okay (they aren't by any means whatsoever) but understanding the problems in the religion and working toward fixing them means accepting harsh realities with what many Muslims still believe.

EDIT: I want to stress that I am NOT saying that the majority of Muslims are radicals, or that the majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law, or even that Muslims should not be allowed in Western nations. I am saying that there is a legitimate problem with Islamism. Many of the beliefs found in Islamism are outdated, and sometimes even barbaric, and should not be present in the 21st century. I completely understand how all of this started, with intervention from the West which caused a relatively stable region to become destabilized. I understand that the majority and potentially vast majority of the faith are well-to-do civilians just looking to live an honest life. But pretending that there is no legitimate problem with Islamism, and that there isn't a high number of Islamist out there, is ridiculous. Yes, we should help the refugees and work to stabilize the region. Yes, racism and bigotry against Arabs, Sikhs, Hindus, Turks, North Africans, any number of other ethnicities that just get grouped into a larger group of "Muslims" is wrong. As well as against Muslims. But we need to face this reality and work to correct. Just like admitting Christianity has a problem with homophobia isn't racist, this isn't either.

[–]ussbaneyFREEZE PEACH GETCHA FREEZE PEACH [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

understanding the problems in the religion and working toward fixing them means accepting harsh realities with what many Muslims still believe.

Fuck you. The issues in the Middle East are a direct result of Western Imperialism. You want to 'understand' the problems? Understand that the poverty, wealth gaps, rentierism, and insert human rights violation here would probably not have happened if the Great Powers didn't go play fucking dollhouse with an entire region. There are no problems with Islam, there are problems in the Middle East because we fucked it up.

[–]askinnydudelens flair [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is an over simplistic view of things. Western powers inherited territories from the Ottoman Empire after World War I. In a practical sense, only directly ruled over the Middle East for a couple of decades, whereas the Ottomans controlled places like Iraq, Syria, and so on for several centuries. Unless Napoleon used a time machine to instigate the Battle of Karbala, I'm pretty sure the Western world, collectively, had little to do with creating tensions between Arab and Persian, Sunnia and Shia.

And there are certainly problems with Islam dominating political thought. Not educating or utilizing half your population in the workforce is a problem. Not being able to attract skilled immigrants due to gender, ethnic, and religious discrimination is a problem.

I don't think /u/jecmoore was saying anything about Islam the religion being "bad" or "wrong", but its influence over politics in the region certainly hasn't been positive. It's been a tool for autocrats to maintain power and oppress women and minorities.

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Of course we fucked up. And that's why we have to do what we can to fix the mess me mad. We put mad men in power and as result these lunatics have turned what could've been a stable region into a war torn wasteland. But that still doesn't change the beliefs that many Muslims now have.

I have no issue recognizing where the problem started, but I can't change what happened. We have to work with what we have now. And what we have now is a large number of people who believe death to non-believers is a legitimate punishment.

That doesn't change what the US did or make it right. What the west did was, is and will always be wrong. But a harsh reality is admitting we are past that and have a new animal to tackle.

[–]ussbaneyFREEZE PEACH GETCHA FREEZE PEACH [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

And what we have now is a large number of people who believe death to non-believers is a legitimate punishment.

WHAAT? That is not what you said! You used the statistics for apostasy, not for killing infidels. Those are two VASTLY different things. And you cherry picked the fuck out of those statistics. Turkey and Lebanon have single digit percentages, Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country, is at 30%. Yeah, that is a big thirty, but it is not some sweeping percentage.

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Just like you cherry picked Lebanon snd Turkey? I'm not saying all or majority even of Muslims believe this way.

And do not pretend apostasy is much better. Death to ex-members of the faith is still a terrible ideology for many in your faith to hokd. Excommunication is bad enough for the psychologicsl effect it can hold.

And even still, large numbers of Muslims still believe death to infidels is acceptable or sometimes justified. Not the majority, but enough to be concerning.

I'm not asking for barring Muslims from Western nations or anything radical like that. All I am asking is we admit these problems and work toward correcting them, by educating people and citizens in those countries on why those beliefs are outdated.

[–]ussbaneyFREEZE PEACH GETCHA FREEZE PEACH [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Just like you cherry picked Lebanon snd Turkey? I'm not saying all or majority even of Muslims believe this way.

I actually didn't, I listed the three countries YOU left out.

And do not pretend apostasy is much better. Death to ex-members of the faith is still a terrible ideology for many in your faith to hokd.

I never said it wasn't, you were the one flipflopping statistics.

And even still, large numbers of Muslims still believe death to infidels is acceptable or sometimes justified.

horseshit

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Horseshit? Really? You realize that on average 38% of Muslims in certain countries believe suicide bombing can sometimes be justified? How about how most Muslim country believe that Hezbollah or Hamas who justified.

You're being stupid if you think that there isn't a problem in Islam that has to be addresed and solved.

[–]jonahmilo_downvotes prove me wrong [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Makes sweeping racist generalisation

But I'm not racist!

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It isn't a sweeping racist generalization.

From the Wikipedia article on "Islam and Violence": The Pew Research Center also found that support for the death penalty as punishment for "people who leave the Muslim religion" was 86% in Jordan, 84% in Egypt, 76% in Pakistan, 51% in Nigeria (all very large Muslim populations) and yet lower in some...

"Islam and violence" on @Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence?wprov=sfia1

I do not believe in discrimination whatsoever. Islamophobia is largely misplaced and completely bigoted. But you can't deny there is a substainal problem with some of the beliefs that many Muslims in the Middle East continue to hold onto. Pretending otherwise is ignorant and putting many lives at risk, both Muslim and non-Muslims.

I don't say this lightly. It is just something that we must keep in mind when dealing with refugees and the area as a whole.

[–]keepitgully [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Is Islam a race now? The comment was 100% right, but nowadays of you bring up any evidence of extremist tendencies amongst Muslims in the west you're labeled a racist. Sooner or later were going to have to confront the fact that 25% of Muslims are radicals.

[–]Kronenburg_Korra [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sooner or later were going to have to confront the fact that 25% of Muslims are radicals.

citation needed

[–]psirynn [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

When all Muslims are assumed to be brown people and Sikhs and even Middle Eastern Christians are targeted in anti-Muslim hate crimes, yes, it's racism. Fuck off with your contrarian bullshit.

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

I'm not talking about when Sikhs or non-Muslim Arabs are attacked for looking too "Muslim".

First of all actually, I'm not even saying attacking a Muslim is okay. I'm saying it is wrong to stereotype Muslims (and any Arab, Persian or Indian "lookalike"), but a significant amount of Muslims still believe in honor killings, death to non-believers, and other outdated ideologied. Secular Muslims need to tackle those issues and there needs to be a way to get to the root of the problem and talk about the fact that leaders in the faith claim "killing a civilian can sometimes be justified".

Again discrimination and bigotry is always wrong. Facing realities is necessary.

[–]psirynn [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Is Islam a race now?

This is what he said. This is typical bullshit contrarianism because anyone with more brain than agenda recognizes that Islamophobia is so deeply rooted in racism that the two are inseparable, and pretending otherwise is just an attempt to be a racist douche while claiming infallibility because you're supposedly attacking a religion, not a race.

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I never said Islam is a race. Not once.

And I'm not attacking Islam. I'm facing the reality that in a religion with a lot of people, there are some disturbing beliefs still held by many. The refugees fleeing the Middle East desire asylum and need it. And the civilians left in the area equally need help. But the extremists likewise are there. And there is enough of them that to claim any attempt to have a discussion about the problem.

I grew up with my second mom being part of the Nation of Islam and my best friend and his family being Muslims from Ghana. I understand and respect that the majority of Muslims of well to do citizens just looking to better their lives or live their life to the best of their ability. But there are hard truths we have to face and admitting that many Muslims still hold on to outdated and sometimes barbaric beliefs one of them.

10 percent of a billion is still 200,000,000,and some statistic show that as many as 25% of Muslims are Islamists. So as many as 500,000,000.

[–]ussbaneyFREEZE PEACH GETCHA FREEZE PEACH [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Can someone please explain to me why being an Islamist is such a bad fucking thing? Islamism just means your political beliefs are geared towards Islamic law. The GOP is geared towards conservative Christianity. Angela Merkel is part of the Christian Democratic Union. If Islamism is so backward, why does Tunisia have the most progressive women's rights in their judicial system? Marzouki, an Islamist, implemented parity for their judges, meaning that there need to be an equal number of females judges to male judges in their system.

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Because many Islamists believe in the implementation of Sharia law as the law of the land. Even if it means super seding the laws of the nation. And some of the laws are extremely outdated and sometimes barbaric.

I don't believe the GOP should be a Christian party. Politics and religion shouldn't mix.

[–]ussbaneyFREEZE PEACH GETCHA FREEZE PEACH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because many Islamists believe in the implementation of Sharia law as the law of the land.

Citation please. I also need a definition of Sharia law so I know what I'm dealing with.

The funny thing is, I actually got that bit about parity in Tunisia wrong. Its not for judicial positions, its for ALL elected positions.

[–]psirynn [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yes, you aren't. People like you never do. But when you talk about Muslims, you are talking about a race. You aren't talking about Muslims in general, you aren't even talking about the ethnic groups that make up the vast majority of Muslims. When Islamophobes make cartoons attacking Islam, they aren't portraying Asians. When you hear about Muslims being attacked, they aren't white people. People are not stupid. Your dogwhistles are not dogwhistles so much as airhorns.

Also:

10 percent of a billion is still 200,000,000,and some statistic show that as many as 25% of Muslims are Islamists. So as many as 500,000,000.

That's not how statistics work, for one thing, but for another, that "some statistic" was an informal poll that asked a relatively very small group of Muslims extremely loaded questions that were then twisted, largely by white nationalists (who I'm sure hate Muslims for entirely not-racist reasons), into "omg this huge percentage of Muslims think innocent people should be killed!". It's bullshit.

[–]jecmoore [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The PEW Research Center did that statistic and they interviewed 14000 Muslims in 6 countries. If you want to attack their bias, fine. But PEW is pretty well regarded in their field of statistics, I disagree with you trying to say they would purposely try to put a spin on their study.

I'm not talking about all of those ethnities. Is have stressed this several times. I am actually really and truly trying to have a real discussion about a real problem in Islam, which is the presence of outdated beliefs held by many in the religion. No not the majority, but enough to make it concerning. I've visited the area. I've been to Eygpt, Isreal, Turkey, Syria, and Jordan. I've spoken with the people. They are good people, but many of their beliefs are outdated and they don't understand why or wish to change their beliefs when they leave an area they most definitely need to leave.

It reminds me of speaking with grandfather about blacks. My grandfather was a good man but a racist. He didn't understand that racism was wrong, because he had always been told it was okay. It was a psychological thing. Nothing wrong with the person, just his beliefs.

This is a real problem. Just like homophobia in Christianity.

[–]JohnnySwoleCash [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That is bullshit. I have no problem with other races. Just the religion called Islam. Allow your bs, not everyone that dislikes Islam is a racist.