全 22 件のコメント

[–]clqrvy 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

I am aware that Incompleteness Theorem poses a problem for mathematics because no matter how large the initial axioms you start out with are, there will be some calculations that you are unable to make (assuming you have a consistent system.) For instance Goldbach's conjecture - that any even number + 1 is an odd number - is impossible to prove.

It's not really a 'problem' for mathematics. Mathematics is getting along just fine (most mathematicians don't interact with the theorem at all). There are lots of results in mathematics that say such-and-such is impossible, and this is just one of them.

Also, not every case of independence has to do with the incompleteness theorems. For example, here's a very simple axiom system.

  1. 0 exists.
  2. If n is a number, then there exists a distinct number n+1.

From these two axioms, it's impossible to prove lots of things. You can't prove 2+2=4. You can't prove there are infinitely many numbers, or that every number has a unique successor, etc. This doesn't have anything to do with the incompleteness theorems; it's just a mundane case of one statement being logically independent from a few other statements.

So if someone discovers that a statement is logically independent from a set of axioms (like the Continuum Hypothesis from ZFC), it shows that those axioms are incomplete, but not necessarily in a way that involves the incompleteness theorems. A better example would be something like showing that the existence of a measurable cardinal isn't provable in ZFC, because the provability of such a cardinal in ZFC would allow ZFC to prove its own consistency, which directly contradicts the 2nd incompleteness theorem.

I've also heard Turing made the situation even harder for mathematicians by showing that you can't know which calculations are unanswerable and which are but I'm a little unclear on this.

It sounds like you're referring to the halting problem, which in some ways is analogous to the incompleteness theorems, though it doesn't make the situation "harder" in any sense.

If mathematics is just a formal type of logic, what were the wider reprocussions for logic and philosophy of Godel's theorem?

Well, one philosophical implication is that mathematics arguably isn't "just a formal type of logic".

Was Russell's "Mathmatica Principia" challenged?

Prinicipa Mathematica was challenged for a number of reasons. A chief reason being that it specifically aimed to show that mathematics could be derived from logical principles, but not everybody agreed that the starting principles it appealed to (such as the 'Axiom of Reducibility') were 'logical'. So while it was an interesting feat of systematizing mathematics in a formal system, it didn't necessarily achieve its philosophical goal of establishing logicism (and this is quite independent of the incompleteness theorems).

Do we emphasise consistency more now that we cannot reason indefinitely to larger conclusions?

There isn't any sense in which the incompleteness theorems say that 'we cannot reason indefinitely to larger conclusions.' The work on large cardinals in set theory is an example of that; investigating types of sets that require stronger and stronger axioms in order to prove. The incompleteness theorems show us why proving the existence of these large sets requires stronger axioms; they don't show that we can't reason about these sets.

Anyway, to answer your title question more directly, I would say the following are some philosophical implications of the incompleteness theorems (and of the method Godel used to prove them).

  1. It arguably showed that Hilbert's program (or at least one version of it) couldn't be carried out. Hilbert wanted to be able to prove the consistency (and 'conservativeness') of formal systems using only 'finitistic' methods (methods that people from just about any philosophy of math could agree to being uncontroversial). This, in effect, was a strategy to get critics of some of the high-powered math of the time (e.g., math appealing to infinite objects and non-constructive methods) to shut up, since the program would show (by methods approved by the critics) that the high-powered math was at worst a convenient notation system that simply made otherwise-provable claims easier to prove.

  2. One of Godel's core ideas in his proof was showing that statements about formal systems (e.g., statements about a formal system's consistency) are basically just arithmetical statements in disguise. I think this makes it more difficult to adopt a purely 'formalist' view of mathematics. For example, some naive formalists might say that there aren't strictly speaking any truths about arithmetic; instead, there are just truths about what theorems do or don't follow from which sets of axioms. However, what Godel arguably showed is that this distinction doesn't really make sense, because facts about unprovability are just certain kinds of arithmetical facts.

[–]ShitOfTheseus[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thank you for taking the time to write that out. My understanding of Godel was largely based on a BBC documentary which I think must have sexed up much of the repercussions of the theorem to make the documentary more broadcast-friendly.

Do you have any recommendations for further reading on the subject for the subject for someone with a philosophical background who has a fairly rudimentary understanding of mathematics?

edit - I've just discovered some reading material in the link posted in the other comment so I should be fine for further reading.

[–]DevFRus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would recommend highly to study some mathematics before trying to worry about Godel's theorems. They are sexy and seductive, but useless unless you know some math, which the following comments from your original question suggest you might need a refresher on:

For instance Goldbach's conjecture - that any even number + 1 is an odd number - is impossible to prove.

and

I've also heard Turing made the situation even harder for mathematicians by showing that you can't know which calculations are unanswerable and which are but I'm a little unclear on this.

and

now that we cannot reason indefinitely to larger conclusions

My recommendation would be a first course in Theory of Computing and the math background that is expected for that (basic discrete math if I remember correctly).

[–]knz 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes if you want further insight on some direct and indirect philosophical consequences of Godel's work, I highly recommend "Godel, Escher, Bach" from Douglas Hofdstadter. It's also rather pleasant to read.

[–]doubleOhBlowMe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of Godel's core ideas in his proof was showing that statements about formal systems (e.g., statements about a formal system's consistency) are basically just arithmetical statements in disguise.

I'm curious what you mean by saying that statements about formal systems are arithmetical statements in disguise. My understanding was that Godel found a way to map statements about formal systems to arithmetic, and so Godel numbering just gives us a clever way of talking about formal systems. Could you elaborate?

[–]kurtgustavwilckensHeidegger, Existentialism, Continental 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

FOLLOWUP QUESTION:

Is it valid to bring up Godel when talking about the incompleteness of language itself (meaning that everyday language cannot be fully justified using it's own definitions) or is it totally irrelevant?

[–]clqrvy 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

That seems pretty unrelated. I actually don't even really know what you're talking about - what does language need to be 'justified' for?

[–]kurtgustavwilckensHeidegger, Existentialism, Continental 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah, so, maybe I wasn't clear, maybe I'm just drawing a dumb paralelism.

Intuitively, I always thought that the logical positivism project presented itself as something like "language is a closed axiomatic logical system", and I always felt a very strong connection between what (late) Wittgenstein had done with language and what Godel had done with closed axiomatic systems.

But I don't know math, this is an intuitive notion, and maybe I'm just absolutely full of shit :p

[–]clqrvy 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't think any of the logical positivists thought of language that way. Anyway, if you want to some kind of connection between the incompleteness theorem and language, you might get that through the liar paradox, or maybe Tarski's undefinability of truth theorem for formal languages.

[–]ShitOfTheseus[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Did Davidson ("Truth and Meaning," 1966) not try apply Hilbert's recursion model of mathematics to natural languages? Not that he was a logical positivist but he attempted to systematise language.

[–]clqrvy 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think you're thinking of Tarski, not Hilbert. Anyway, Davidson was trying to give a theory of meaning, which doesn't have much to do with treating language like a 'closed axiomatic logical system', since axiomatic logical systems are purely syntactic objects.

[–]ShitOfTheseus[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks, seems like another area I'll need to brush up on. Philosophy of language is fascinating but in my undergraduate I only ever studied Frege/Russell Descriptivism and Kripke's arguments against from "N&N."

[–]UsesBigWords 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think this weekly discussion answers many of your questions.

no matter how large the initial axioms you start out with are, there will be some calculations that you are unable to make

That is not what Godel's incompleteness theorems state. His first incompleteness theorem is fairly specific; the layman understanding is that an effectively generated consistent formal system strong enough to express elementary arithmetic cannot prove all true statements expressible in its language.

This has nothing to do with "calculations" (at least not directly), and it isn't so much about "how large the initial axioms" are, but whether they're powerful enough to capture Peano arithmetic.

For instance Goldbach's conjecture - that any even number + 1 is an odd number - is impossible to prove.

That is not Goldbach's conjecture. We don't even know whether Goldbach's conjecture is true, much less provable in the relevant formal systems.

I've also heard Turing made the situation even harder for mathematicians by showing that you can't know which calculations are unanswerable and which are but I'm a little unclear on this.

It's not so much that he "made the situation even harder" as much as Godel's work hinges on some important aspects of Turing's work, namely the Church-Turing thesis/the halting problem.

If mathematics is just a formal type of logic, what were the wider reprocussions for logic and philosophy of Godel's theorem?

Mathematics isn't "just a formal type of logic". What I mean is that what we now call "pure mathematics" isn't reducible to logic. The incompleteness theorems are often taken as strong evidence for this claim.

Was Russell's "Mathmatica Principia" challenged? Do we emphasise consistency more now that we cannot reason indefinitely to larger conclusions?

In a word, yes. Legends often recount how Godel was one of the "only" people to read Principia Mathematica cover to cover from an early age. Some historians interpret Godel's work to be a response to Russell's project (and, larger, the Hilbert program). That program has been more or less abandoned.

[–]oneguy2008logic, phil. math, epistemology 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Link to weekly discussion <3

[–]completely-ineffable 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

For instance Goldbach's conjecture - that any even number + 1 is an odd number - is impossible to prove.

That is not Goldbach's conjecture.

Also, it is possible to prove that adding 1 to an even number produces an odd number. It is a theorem of (a weak fragment of) Peano arithmetic.

[–]Jeffffffff 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, it's provable. Every even number can be written as 2k for some integer k (this is the definition of even number), adding one to it yields 2k+1, which is an odd number by definition.

Proving an odd number plus one is similarly easy: (2k+1)+1 = 2k+2 = 2(k+1). If we let k'=k+1, then it is equal to 2k', which is even (again, by definition of even).

These proofs don't rely on a whole lot of assumptions. Logical axioms don't actually define how to perform arithmetic, so we do need to assume that 1+1=2, but this is really just a definition of what 2 is (you can however prove that 1+1 is not 0 or 1 which are the only numbers the axioms generally reveal as existing). The second part requires that 2k+2 = 2(k+1) which might seem like it's not straightforward because this concept often isn't introduced is mathematical curriculum before highschool, but it is in fact normally taken to be axiomatic (it is needed to explain how addition and multiplication interact with each other).

[–]ADefiniteDescriptionlogic, truth, moral phil. 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do you intend to disagree with /u/completely-ineffable? He noted that it was possible as well.

[–]Jeffffffff 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well now I feel silly... I thought the post said "is it".. Oh well, there's the proof.

[–]ShitOfTheseus[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That discussion is exactly what I was looking for.

Re: Goldbach's conjecture, is it a current problem mathematicians are working on a solution for or is it an antiquated example?

[–]UsesBigWords 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Re: Goldbach's conjecture, is it a current problem mathematicians are working on a solution for or is it an antiquated example?

This is something easily searchable on Wiki. It is a current problem mathematicians are working on.

[–]ShitOfTheseus[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Clearly I need to do a little more reading around the subject but I have a tentative follow up question.

In the daily discussion thread one of your replies linked to, it is briefly mentioned that Godel saw his incompleteness theorems as proof of either mathematical platonism or that the human brain is more powerful (versatile?) than any computer could be. Does he state which option he finds more plausible? I read somewhere that he was fond of the use of intuition in science and maths so I'd guess the latter but I'd love someone to elaborate a little on it.

[–]fendant 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Goedel made it clear he thought mathematical platonism was true.

He also suggested that human minds are capable of nonsensory 'perception' of mathematical objects, and that this mathematical intuition has as similar relationship to the study of math that sense perception has to science.

If that's the case, then human minds have access to mathematical truth in ways other than proofs in the formal systems covered by his theorems.

So maybe he was convinced of former and suspected the latter.