Old white dude uses Asian woman's name in frustration for having his poetry rejected, gets published in Best American Poetry anthology, and hilarity ensues.

UndeadBBQ · 3時間前

Wouldn't it be nice if submissions would only every use some randomly generated ID-code?

And then, at the very last second before print/upload, the ID gets changed to the actual names.

wolfman1911 · 4時間前

Kind of an odd story to be honest. On one hand, it's pretty jacked up that he would publish under the name of an Asian woman just to get published, but what is more jacked up is that it worked.

RedeemingVices · 6時間前

I love how the author's actions highlight immense sexism and racism in the publishing world, but he's the one being called racist. It fucking baffles me how stupid people are.

OfGloriousLife · 9時間前

Do people get this angry when women publish under male pseudonyms to similarly avoid rejection?

jimrob4 · 3時間前

"Of course, I was angry at the subterfuge and at myself for being fooled by this guy. I silently cursed him and wondered how I would deal with this colonial theft."

I'm angry that the poem somehow became publishable only when an Asian ~~man~~ woman supposedly wrote it.

serpent-tailed-angel · 7時間前

Do the people who are upset about the fact that he used a fake name also take issue with the fact that he had a significantly easier time getting published as a result? Ideally, you should be selected based on the quality of your work, not your ethnicity. At least the guy publishing it acknowledged that he couldn't pull the poem without making it look like he only accepted it because it was written by an Asian woman.

AJakeR · 7時間前

Entire article raged at the white man, totally glossing over the fact (other than a brief comment at the very bottom) about how he was almost immediately published as both a non-white and non-male.

Whoever writes good poetry should get noticed for writing good poetry. I don't care who that is. But, regardless of what was said, the poem was clearly chosen for ethnic reasons, and it was only kept in to avoid a shit-load of hell-fire on the behalf of the anthology.

Piqsirpoq · 8時間前

"poetry colonist"

I'm more of a poetry semi-colonist myself.

Babill · 7時間前

Of course when it's an old white man who does it, it is racist and possibly misogynistic but, had it been any other arrangement of gender and race, this would have been hailed as an empowered minority gaming the system. A dialog would have opened about why it is so hard for this particular arrangement of gender and race to publish poetry but no, of course no, he's white, he's a man. He was practically given a free ride card at his birth. Sickening.

wripples · 6時間前

The Angry Asian Man blog also accused Mr Hudson of yellowface in poetry and predicted that the author wouldn't be enjoying his newly discovered privilege much longer.

That's not an empty threat, by the way. I know for a fact that many a poet has had their career crippled by the literary powerhouse that is the Angry Asian Man blog. Yellowface in poetry is no laughing matter.

Werrf · 4時間前

So, a woman can't get published under her own name, invents a male pseudonym and gets published; searing indictment of the publishing industry! A man can't get published under his own name, invents a female pseudonym and gets published; searing indictment of the writer's racism!

Anyone else seeing a double standard here?

dempseye · 3時間前

Is anybody going to post the poem?

jax9999 · 7時間前

i liked how they bandied the world colonial around. as if he as a white male was an intruder on their little peotry world. it was very very telling

domdest · 6時間前

Okay, I read the article, I thought about it a bit, and here's my attempt to deconstruct the issues.

I can see where a problem lies in the fact that if the poetry was about what it is to be Asian, then an Asian writing about their personal experiences with race issues specific to them is important, yes.

But imagine for a moment that an old white dude writes about what it is to be Asian, and a bunch of Asians reading it catch themselves nodding and going "that about sums it up". Doesn't that also have value? For example, Memoirs of a Geisha, written by American author Arthur Golden, has been praised as a great work of fiction about Japanese culture, and has inspired an entire body of work by other artists about same.

TheMightyRocktopus · 3時間前

Man, Alexie's comments took me on a rollercoaster:

"Of course, I was angry at the subterfuge and at myself for being fooled by this guy. I silently cursed him and wondered how I would deal with this colonial theft."

Come now Mr. Alexie. What was stolen? As far as I know, there aren't many up-and-coming poets named Yi-Fen Chou, and even if there were, it's not a crime to use somebody else's name. This wasn't Best Asian-American Poetry 2015; this was Best American Poetry 2015. He's an American, therefore he should have just as much opportunity to be published as the next writer.

"But I had to keep that pseudonymous poem in the anthology because it would have been dishonest to do otherwise. If I'd pulled the poem then I would have been denying that I gave the poem special attention because of the poet's Chinese pseudonym.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Alexie. It's good to see someone admit that they were in the wrong.

"If I'd pulled the poem then I would have been denying that I was consciously and deliberately seeking to address past racial, cultural, social, and aesthetic injustices in the poetry world."

That's because, as an editor, it's not your job to address past racial, cultural etcetera injustices. Your job was to select the "Best American Poetry". It's right there in the fucking title. As a poet, novelist, and short story writer (and a damn fine one at that), yes, go ahead and address social and aesthetic injustices to your heart's content, but selecting a piece of poetry, not because the poetry was good or deserving of publication, but because the author had a name that sounded Chinese to you -- that makes you the racist.

Mr Alexie said that in keeping the poem he commit[sic] "an injustice against poets of [colour] and against Chinese and Asian poets in particular."

Yes, and do you know what that injustice was? You held them to a lower standard than their white colleagues. I'm willing to bet that Mr. Hudson wasn't the only white man published in this anthology. Unlike a lot of commenters in this thread, I don't think that you have a hate boner for white poets. You gave the white poets a fare shake, held them to the standards demanded by your position. But for Asian poets, for whatever reason, those standards were too much.

Why Sherman Alexie? Is it that Asian poets aren't as good as white poets by some magical force affecting a few billion people? Were internment and atomic bombs in World War II so catastrophic that they not only ruined the lives of those immediately impacted by them (Japanese people and their descendants), but also a nation of over a billion people who don't even identify as the same race?^* And this nightmare of social injustice somehow lead to mass illiteracy, so that we need to lower the bar for Chinese writers? You mean to say that the oldest surviving culture in the world, a culture which has produced a few thousand years worth of fantastic writers and poets, just doesn't measure up, that those poor writers need a handicap in the name of racial equality?

^* I'm being overly reductive here for the sake of demonstrating the absurdity of (for one) throwing all people from East Asia into one homogeneous group and (also) suggesting that thanks to some unnamed and unexplained crime against humanity, all people with epicanthic folds are now less competent than their European peers.

(Edit: Asterisk at the end and line edits.)

(Edit 2: Electric Boogaloo: I found Alexie's full comments which are a lot more sensible when read outside of the article. See my reply below for quick and lazy context.)

knownerror · 1時間前

So a white dude isn't allowed to write a pretty poem about a tiger?

Vedney · 3時間前

This anger against this is guy is just as stupid as the time that that publishing house decided they only want to publish women. Why can't we judge something by itself without bringing the creator into it?

KeatingOrRoark · 1時間前

It seems like people are ignoring the idea that all a poet needs to do to be published is be part of a minority or exotic group. Instead of judging the poem's initial worth off its content, the selector judged it based on the name of the writer.

This is not ok. This is not judging people by their content or ability. It is judging them based on race or ethnicity.

While the writer is a sneaky Pete, he has helped bring a very racist matter to light, and it seems like people are choosing to ignore it in favor of political correctness.

sgtoox · 23分前

So he gets rejected based on his race. And then he gets called the racist? I can't believe the article was being dead-serious.....

10tothe24th · 18分前

I'm astonished at people's reactions to this. They act so hurt, like this man has robbed them of something, when all he's done is show what a joke the publisher's submission process is. It's not about racism or reverse racism or quasi-lateral perpendicular racism, it's just stupidity and they shouldn't be defending it, and they certainly shouldn't be directing so much hatred toward the guy whose only crime is pointing out how shallow (and apparently disinterested in poetry) those publishers were, doing the rest of us a huge favor. It's not like he submitted his poem to "Best Asian Women's Poetry of 2015."

And, that stupidity aside, let's not forget that many people of color have "white" names, so by picking names because they sound unwhite, these publishers were also disenfranchising people of color.

flashlitemanboy · 4時間前

This makes me think when I get around to trying to publish my work, instead of putting my name as "Billy Bob Jones," I should instead abbreviate it to "B.B. Jones" or something ambiguous where you can't tell my gender. Because if I'm less likely to be published for being a male then that's a buncha bullshit.

ethos1983 · 5時間前

Damn...I always joked about using a pen name, but I may have been on to something...

I love the fact that the editor openly admits to tossing pieces by "colonists", but what's he upset over? His blatantly racist actions? Condemning artistic work based on the gender/sex of its creator?

Nope, getting "fooled".

There is one reason to do what he did (choosing work based on race/nationality): if he was selecting for "the best Asian - American poems". He wasnt.

BadProfessor · 1時間前

Why do white males dominate literature?

One possibility is that they are inherently better at creating meaningful literature by virtue of being white and male, and any selection criteria emphasizing quality will skew toward them.

That seems highly improbable to me.

However, I also find it unlikely that people are constantly rejecting great work because it's not written by white men. I'm sure it happens (this is obviously one anecdotal example), but without strong evidence, I have a hard time believing it's the norm. So, is it possible that white males, on the whole, are producing higher quality literature than other demographics? Sure it is. But why?

One possibility is that white males make more literature because literature is seen as something that white males do. When women and people of color don't see people from their communities creating literature and don't hear voices like their own on the page, they are discouraged from creating literature themselves. By having more white men writing and writing seriously, you increase the chances of white men producing quality writing. When 90% of white you read in school is written by a white man, and you're taught this is literature, it has to be assumed that a message about who creates real literature is being delivered to students.

Also, look at the achievement gap between white people and people of color. I'm betting we can strongly correlate education with likelihood of publication. It probably helps to have dedicated a large portion of your life to reading and writing if writing is something you want to do with yourself. Submitting work for publication is kind of the last step in a long series of filters during which people of color, women, and individuals from low-income backgrounds have disadvantages.

One way to correct this disparity is to publish more new and alternate voices. Old white men still do well in the poetry world (W.S. Merwin springs to mind). Seeking out non-white, non-male voices is a way of enriching literature and encouraging new voices to take up writing.

fauxRealzy · 1時間前

People on here and Twitter complaining that, even with Alexie's diversity scale-tipping, the resulting Best American Poems is still "60% white."

This is my problem with the whole "diversity-first," affirmative action approach to publishing, employment, academics, etc. The United States is roughly 60% white. Isn't the goal of "creating a balanced situation for poets of all races and ethnicities" to reflect demographic proportions? Or is it to deliberately favor people of color?

I don't disagree with the diagnosis so much as the prescription. When you start fretting about percentages and perfect demographical representation you distract from the issue at hand. You distract from the art form you're meant to be advancing, and we end up with stupid controversies like this or the recent Hugo Awards, and the art we're meant to be promoting becomes marginalized. It breeds bitterness and resentment in the hearts of those who perceive themselves to be marginalized (whether in the form of JK Rowling adopting a gender-neutral name, or in the form of this guy adopting an Asian name), and it raises suspicions among readers regarding the merit of a given work. Even among those who benefit from the system (be they white males in traditional publishing or asian women in affirmative action scenarios), there's a philosophical question to confront: Do you want your work to be a success because you created something truly worthy of the acclaim, or because a publisher saw your identity as beneficial for some larger demographic agenda?

This reliance on diversity as an inherent credential is an attempt to appropriate the (sensible) reliance on objectivity found in the STEM community. The problem is a) literature was never meant to be objective (which is why I have a problem with the phrase "Best American" in the first place), and b) the gatekeepers end up manufacturing that objectivity anyway, rather than letting it grow from a slow cultural shift in attitudes and biases. It's a spot treatment for a pervasive societal problem.

GhostFour · 1時間前

Not good enough to be published 49 times, and suddenly the world catches up with the genius that would become one of America's best poems? This just proves that publishers are shit and everything I have written is fucking gold. Just as I suspected.

Katrar · 39分前

I love how it's now normal to go from neutral to instant rage, with no settings in between.

It seems a lot of people have lost the genuine ability to communicate, talking at you has completely replaced talking to you.

If I did something like this (without intent to offend), and people addressed me in a civil manner, trying to explain/educate/communicate, I'd be willing to listen and perhaps even apologize. If, however, I did something like this and the response was rage-spittle, threats to destroy my creative reputation, etc etc... well, it'd be less middle ground and more middle finger.

ZenBerzerker · 23分前

the price of having one less white male voice, one masquerading as a Chinese one (for the what? mediocre poetry fame?

He thinks the poetry is mediocre, but he chose it for an anthology because he wanted to promote non-white poets?

That's not just racist, that's racist and stupid.

red_280 · 7時間前

Hysterical, simply due to what it says about what the real criteria sometimes is.

VaginalBurp · 2時間前

"White poet proves he got shit on because he is white. Even when admitting they rejected his poem because he is a white man and then publishing it in the "Best American Poetry" when they thought he was Asian, HE is still, somehow, the one that did something wrong."

WP_Joy · 1時間前

Affirmative action has two sides, it recognizes that there has been systemtic oppression of minorities and seeks to correct it, and it also sometimes elevates the mediocre. Poetry, probably more than any other literary subgenre, is filled with pretentious navel gazers who don't recognize that their art is dead. I place them with philosophers, QBASIC coders, and film splicing instructors - there's a reason you can't quote a line from a poem written after 1971. Mark Millar is more relevant than Charles Wright.

What we have in the case of Yi Fen Chou is a combination of race tourism and the fact that selecting 75 poems as the best American poetry eventually results in you picking the prettiest turd in bowl around Poem #10, and then throwing darts at a wall for poems #30+. Did using a Chinese name give Yi Fen Chou an advantage? I'd say probably yeah. It's a terrible poem, it was probably selected to fill some quota, whether imagined or actually mandated. The guy who selected it for BAP said that he was "a brown skinned poet trying to give another brown skinned poet a chance." But the editors who selected Chou's work for the Praire Schooner and the Michigan Review and Uncle John's Bathroom Reader may not have had this altruistic racism in mind.

One issue that minorities face is that they are often allowed to be different, but they are not allowed to be great. Minority creatives like Maya Angelou, who is a fantastic writer and pretty much amazing at everything she touches, are famous for their "this is my work about my race. it deals with my race. RACE." books much more than they are for their more "this is a story about people" books. Try and think of a minority creative. The most famous ones are the ones who wrote books about being a minority, not the ones who wrote books about being a person. It's like being a female writer, you can publish books about women under your real name, but if you want to write books about men, you better try a name like George Sand or J.K. Rowling. A minority is forced to write books like The Color Purple to be commercially viable, minorities cannot write books like Moby Dick, Catch-22, Lolita, or Brave New World.

Being a white man gives you the privilege to be boring. You don't have to be Alice Walker and write about black life in the US, you can write whatever you want, whether it's Yiddish Policemen's Unions or considering lobsters or the freedom of suburban life in St. Paul, Minnesota. But whereas whites have the the whole world open to them, there is also a floor of quality that is expected.

For minorities, you are tunneled into a particular genre, almost guaranteed to be about your race. But you're allowed to be shitty at it, some benevolent editor will elevate your work as long as it matches their preconceived notions about what your people should be writing...and also as long as they don't go over quota. Yann Martel, a white Canadian, can write about an Indian boy named Pi, but Junot Diaz, a terrible author, is only famous because he allows race tourism when he writes from the Dominican perspective.

TL;DR: It's a shitty poem that was only chosen because he faked his minority status, but you're lying to yourself if you think white men are discriminated against.

lronhubbardsmother · 7時間前

I've been learning Chinese for years and have a Chinese name. I'd better not accidentally use it on any writing submissions lest I become a big fat racist who's responsible for all the evils of the world.

EgonIsGod · 4時間前

Glad this is getting press. For as long as I've been writing, the work submitted under female pseudonyms gets published much more often than under male ones.

couponreborn · 4時間前

As someone who just received my English degree, I think there is at least a strong bias that works in racial minorities' favor in literary academia. One issue I have trouble forming a strong opinion about is a sort of affirmative action in any field...at one point can we determine that we're no longer preferring minorities to help conquer a long-held bias against them instead of rewarding solely on merit and talent? It's hard to quantify and to come up with hard evidence concerning the issue. We all have some leaning towards an opinion about it that seems to be rooted in emotion rather than data. I don't even know if it's possible to prove either side of the argument.

WhisperAzr · 3時間前

I was consciously and deliberately seeking to address past racial, cultural, social, and aesthetic injustices in the poetry world.

This annoys me more than anything. People looking for equality are always trumpeting equal representation, saying we need more women CEO's, gay/trans people in games, or colored people published as authors and that's just plain wrong. What we need is equal opportunity. Nobody should be denied the chance to be published in an anthology based on their race, gender or sexual orientation. That goes for straight, white men too.

Give everyone the same opportunities and reward those who deserve it, not just those who fit a certain bill.

liminalsoup · 3時間前

The anthology's editor Sherman Alexie responded to his critics in a lengthy blog post. He explained why he chose to publish the "poetry colonist" after he discovered that the author was a white man.

Huh?

"Of course, I was angry at the subterfuge and at myself for being fooled by this guy. I silently cursed him and wondered how I would deal with this colonial theft."

When was China a colony? China is, if anything, a colonist itself (Taiwan, Tibet, and now recently expanding into the south east Asian seas to take over the fishing territories of its neighbours).

DunkeyKung · 4時間前

r/writing's response to this has led me to question the subs value as a place for discussing writing. Is it really that difficult to imagine this man's actions are problematic or unpleasant? The uniformity of opinion here suggests this sub suffers from reddit's typical problems of demographic representation, and by extension so does its writing advice.

I would like to gently suggest something to explain why people might be upset about this man's behavior. It is perfectly valid to define "racism" as social/political/economic power being exerted over an underprivileged group. When feminists say that misandry does not exist, or racism against white people does not exist, it is because they are using this definition. That racism can only be labelled as such when it accompanies privilege does result in an imbalance. ex: If a white man appropriates an asian identity he is being racist, if an asian man appropriates a white identity he is manipulating the privilege associated with it. But it is not unreasonable to define racism in this way despite the imbalance it produces. If society remains extremely unequal in the opportunities afforded to a white male versus the challenges faced by anyone who is not, is it wrong to define racism in a way that directly counteracts this? Is it not problematic to claim the only way to be "not racist" is to treat everyone perfectly equally, but then put people in a society that is inherently unequal? And somehow suggest that the people at the bottom are just as morally reprehensible and unjustified in their gendered or racialized complaints as someone saying or doing the same things at the top?

Admittedly this premise relies on people acknowledging this imbalance in the first place, and accepting the fact that it is easier to be a white male. I'm sure many here would disagree with that, but that alone is enough to tell me that someone is inherently limited in their writing. If you can't be self-critical of your own position and life, how can I expect you to engage with anything outside of it. How can you write a female or non-white character with any kind of depth if you see no difference in your respective life experiences and the challenges they face that you don't? I look at these comments and i see a lack of empathy and an inability to undertake thought experiments. So I've unsubscribed because I don't want or need your advice.

UptightSodomite · 5時間前

This is why I hate the literary world. Not because Asian women are enjoying a temporary preference in selection, but because you assholes are offended by it and think it's ok to fucking pose as an Asian person to get what you want.

The reason Asian women authors are being given preference now is because historically we have been silenced. We have been locked in our homes, held back from school, kept in our kitchens, bound by our feet, abandoned in rice paddies, sold or captured as slaves, locked out of politics, locked out of men's spaces, and locked out of literature.

There is little to no precedence set on what our literature should look like. How our voices should be heard. How our writing should be powerful. You think it sucks that shitty poetry from an old white man can only get notice if it's posing as the penning of an Asian woman? I think it's shitty that his pretentious piece of crap passed as a great piece of writing for an Asian woman.

If his shitty writing can only pass as good if it's being written by an Asian woman, that means they're not taking us seriously. They're not even bothering to read for the difference. They want our names on the cover and they don't care what we write. It means that shitty writing will pass for the voice of Asian women, Asian authors, Asian girl authors, me.

The only plus side is that any voice is better than no voice. Even the immature scrawlings of a college freshman would honestly represent one facet, one stage, one version of our existence and capabilities. It would be something, a scrap to add to our pile of little more than nothing to go on.

But you guys think it's somehow ok to take that away too. As though literary biography isn't a thing. As though we're writing into a vacuum where all writing is equal no matter where it comes from. Who it comes from. Who is saying something for the first time, and who has already said their piece a hundred times.

It does matter. It has always mattered. And for a long time, what mattered was that it had to be written by a white male, following the conventions of white male writers, telling the stories that white men think up or steal. It was the same people with the same experiences and ideologies talking to themselves.

But now we've finally moved on to something else. I am the great granddaughter of a woman whose feet were crippled as a sign of her family's status. I am the granddaughter of a woman who was rejected by her in laws on the suspicion that she might be "tainted" with another race. I am the daughter of a woman who was pulled out of middle school to cook in her family's kitchens, because that's the sacrifice that the older daughters must make. I am the first daughter to go to college and graduate. I am one of my mother's daughters, that spent the summer in a steaming kitchen learning how to make her dumplings. That taught my mother how to sign her name. That got a replica knife of the one that noble Korean girls used to kill themselves after they'd been raped. Themselves, not the rapist.

If you think my background doesn't matter, that the writing of Asian women should be measured against yours according to your standards, or that you're somehow eligible for ours, you are wrong. We are a different color, a different flavor. We are as comparable as white bread and tteokbokki.

FreeGiraffeRides · 5時間前

Do you suppose Best American Poetry sells more or less copies as a result of this policy? Do readers share their interest in exotic bylines, or would they come out ahead by picking the best poems anonymously?

cubitfox · 3時間前

What I don't understand is the assertion of by the blogger of the writers white privelage. Didn't this whole thing prove that his privelage didn't exist simply by him being accepted more with a non-white name?

rushmc1 · 2時間前

So the same people who tell us we must view gender as a fluid spectrum are saying that racial identity must be seen as determined and absolute? Does anyone else sense some cognitive dissonance (and self-serving stacking of the deck) at play here?

aprilpops · 1時間前

ITT: /r/writing goes full /r/mensrights

liminalsoup · 3時間前

I disappoint that he used Yifen Chou instead of Qifen Chou

wanderjahr · 3時間前

We publish Asian poetry. We have binders of Asian poets.

rushmc1 · 2時間前

Appropriated culture becomes culture. Some people have a very limited and naive sense of identity and self. Tribalism writ personal.

klitchell · 2時間前

"If indeed this is one of the best American poems of 2015, it took quite a bit of effort to get it into print"

Maybe there was a lot of shitty poetry this year.

tehbored · 2時間前

He should have used something more ambiguous like Lee or Lang with just a first initial.

dancebeats · 1時間前

What some of his Asian critics are oblivious to the implication this has highlighted; Asian female writers are being published at a much lower standard than their white male counterparts. This in turn contributes to dumbing down literature of Asian writers.

That's what's they should really be outraged about.

larksinmyhead · 1時間前

Some professors make you write your student ID number instead of your name so they can avoid bias in marking. Should publishers try something similar to eliminate bias?

heavyprose · 1時間前

I just want to read his poem.

Forced multiculturalism never works. We always end up with egg on our face, somehow.

TheMightyRocktopus · 1時間前

I finally found the text of the poem. It took some work, but Buzzfeed's endless need to publish complete works without permission hasn't failed me yet.

Yi-Fen Chou (Michael Derrick Hudson)

The Bees, the Flowers, Jesus, Ancient Tigers, Poseidon, Adam and Eve

Huh! That bumblebee looks ridiculous staggering its way

across those blue flowers, the ones I can never

remember the name of. Do you know the old engineer's

joke: that, theoretically, bees can't fly? But they look so

perfect together, like Absolute Purpose incarnate: one bee

plus one blue flower equals about a billion

years of symbiosis. Which leads me to wonder what it is

I'm doing here, peering through a lens at the thigh-pouches

stuffed with pollen and the baffling intricacies

of stamen and pistil. Am I supposed to say something, add

a soundtrack and voiceover? My life's spent

running an inept tour for my own sad swindle of a vacation

until every goddamned thing's reduced to botched captions

and dabs of misinformation in fracture,

not-quite-right English: Here sir, that's the very place Jesus

wept. The Colosseum sprouts and blooms with leftover seeds

pooped by ancient tigers. Poseidon diddled

Philomel in the warm slap of this ankle-deep surf to the dying

stings of a thousand jellyfish. There, probably,

atop yonder scraffly hillock, Adam should've said no to Eve.

&nbsp:

Apologies to Yi-Fen for any mistakes in my transcription.

DidiGodot · 1時間前

Is this from the Onion? How can these people be so stupid? If it's a Best American Poetry Anthology, it shouldn't matter what name someone uses, as long as the poetry is deserving. All of these people scrambling to publicly position themselves as politically correct, while simultaneously being racist, should pull their heads out of their asses.

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