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RAF killed Briton in Syria strike - PM (bbc.co.uk)
Suofficer が 6時間前 投稿
[–]Maddjonesy 38ポイント39ポイント40ポイント 4時間前* (17子コメント)
I kind of feel that once he left for Syria, he ceased to be a 'Briton'.
EDIT: I mean joining IS should be tantamount to rescinding your citizenship. I cannot fathom how anyone would argue against that. If you want to kill people in the name of some religious cause, then you do not meet the requirements of being an acceptable citizen to Britain and do not deserve the benefits that come with that.
[–]boom346 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
British citizens who join IS are essentially swearing allegiance to enemies of the crown which is the worst offence a British citizen can commit. It was punishable by the death penalty until 1998 and since we can't legally obtain him, why not revoke his citizenship and bomb him, after all he is an enemy combatant?
[–]Reeeeeen 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
My thoughts exactly. I pretty much came to these comments to say just this, though I suspect you managed it in better words than I would.
[+]anautisticpotato スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 4時間前 (8子コメント)
Really? Because we all pay taxes for consular protection abroad.
[–]Maddjonesy 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 4時間前 (6子コメント)
But that protection should be rescinded when you actively join a force intent on harming Britain. Don't you think?
It's seems obviously logical to me. You join an opposing army, you lose all your benefits from the initial country. Because you're now a traitor.
[–]anautisticpotato -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 4時間前 (3子コメント)
I agree that's an argument that should be considered by parliament. It's not more important than upholding the right to public trial, and the right to not be executed by your government, though.
[–]Maddjonesy 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
the right to not be executed by your government
How can it be considered "their" government, if they are an active combatant against said government. That's ludicrous to me and sounds an awful lot like social righteousness taken too far.
It's like telling a solider he's not allowed to shoot at the guy shooting at him, because they used to live in the same house once. Letting political ideals blind you from the harsh reality of a situation seems foolish.
Also, if they wanted the right to a fair trial and not be executed by their government, maybe they shouldn't have joined a force (IS) which seems to do exactly that!
[–]Soulsiren 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
The difficulty for the government is that this argument might hold more validity if parliament hadn't voted against military action in Syria (so the government should in theory be acting in line with that). To argue that anyone in Syria is an active combatant against the UK then becomes more difficult. To use your example of soldiers, calling someone an active combatant because they are shooting at our troops would be harder when it raises the uncomfortable question "wait, didn't we democratically decide we weren't sending any troops over?"
[+]anautisticpotato スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
It's not remotely similar. There is no suggestion that these dudes were armed, that they presented an imminent threat or that they had the means to carry it out if they did.
If we had control of our borders, it would be pretty simple to arrest them on arrival.
I don't know why you believe this is the case. I am deeply skeptical of such claims. Jurisprudence would suggest mine is the correct approach.
[+]BraveSirRobin スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
actively join a force intent on harming Britain
Citation needed.
The Iraqi Insurgency, now re-branded as ISIS for useful propaganda reasons, has fairly solid objectives and none of them involve attacking Britain. They will attack the British troops occupying their land, as we would do ourselves to any unwelcome foreign occupier.
[–]sazupt 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
If nothing else, they have declared war on other NATO countries.
[–]throwmcway192 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Something tells me that Mr Briton in the article wasn't paying taxes.
[–]Syndic -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (5子コメント)
I mean joining IS should be tantamount to rescinding your citizenship. I cannot fathom how anyone would argue against that.
It's a pretty basic principle that you can't make people stateless. And since ISIS isn't acknowledged country you can't make them ISISian without recognizing ISIS which no country on this planet wants.
And it's simply not necessary. You have a way to deal with countrymen who commit crimes. It's called justice system.
[–]alexgmcm [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (4子コメント)
ISIS don't care for international law. We can't exactly write them an extradition request or expect Syria to go and sort it out.
We have a way to deal with terrorists. It's called the Predator drone.
[–]Syndic [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (3子コメント)
Criminals don't care about law, so let's forfeit law? Seriously?
[–]alexgmcm [スコア非表示] 58分前 (2子コメント)
We can arrest a criminal - we can't arrest someone who joins an illegal terrorist organisation and then proceeds to torture and mutilate innocent civilians abroad before threatening to return to the UK and do the same to our citizens.
Ask the families of the 7/7 victims if they'd rather have had the terrorists killed in a drone strike when they were training in Waziristan than lose their innocent loved ones.
Those are the people that matter - not ISIS scum.
[–]Syndic [スコア非表示] 49分前 (1子コメント)
Hmm, what option do you have against a foreign military? Oh yes, the Army.
I've never said you can't kill him if he engages your forces, just that taking away citizenship is absolutely unnecessary since you have ways to deal with him in Syria as well as in Britain.
[–]alexgmcm [スコア非表示] 45分前 (0子コメント)
So wait - you are fine with targeted killing of militants you just want to make sure we don't rescind their citizenship beforehand? That's a bit of an odd concern given we are aiming to kill them.
[–]KingJewffrey 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
"Briton", he declared Jihad on the west while sipping a cup of tea with milk and complaining about the weather.
[–]Nicenightforawalk01 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 2時間前* (0子コメント)
These people made the choice to go and fight and kill in Syria. They probably have taken wives and raped and murdered many in that time. They gave up their right to be a British citizen and be an enemy of it. What are we going to do welcome them back with open arms or go look for them and arrest them? Some jokers here with their high morals.
[–]BenV94 28ポイント29ポイント30ポイント 6時間前 (59子コメント)
He was plotting to attack the UK and commemoration.
The choice was clear; let him live and let people die in the UK or kill him. There is no government on the ground, there is no way to arrest him.
The only thing in question is whether there is evidence that he is a terrorist and actively plotting; presumably the government doesn't share such intelligence
[–]LEGS__AKIMBO 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 5時間前 (24子コメント)
The Government doesn't and shouldn't. These things are confidential for a very good reason: national security.
[+]Lookingfortruths スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 5時間前 (22子コメント)
so how can you be sure that he is guilty?
Innocent until proven guilty
[–]butterCrackers 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
We are not the ones who can declares someone guilty or innocent. There's a judicial system to do just that. Although we shouldn't thrust it blindly specially when thinks are done whithout the public eyes, the highest rankings officers were consulted in an decision that was then anounced publicly, I think this was pretty much justified.
[–]cryptovariable 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 4時間前* (3子コメント)
If someone is in Raqqah Syria, an ISIS stronghold, and they have posted dozens of pictures of themselves armed and surrounded by ISIS fighters, and they actively work for ISIS, that's not the same as being picked up by the cops for bank robbery.
All of the citizens killed by airstrikes have been on "Most Wanted" lists for years. It is inconceivably impossible they did not know. If they wanted a trial, they could have returned home and turned themselves as soon as they crossed the border.
When you freely, voluntarily, and willingly join ISIS you aren't a civilian anymore. Its difficult to find, but there is an ISIS recruitment video starring three British jihadis, including those who were killed, that puts any doubts to rest.
If anything, Khan had stated numerous times that he was ready for martyrdom and he expected and embraced it. Anyone who is for assisted suicide should be pro-this.
edit: the daily fail has an excerpt of the video, most services including LiveLeak, take the video down as soon as it is posted http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2722384/Reyaad-Khan-The-Cardiff-jihadist-wants-die-martyr.html#v-3633085102001
[–]Lookingfortruths 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)
I am not denying his guilt, I was arguing that blindly accepting the government's 'evidence' without being able to even see it is not a good idea
[–]HairyMongoose 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
'evidence'
[–]Lookingfortruths -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
how do you know its evidence unless you see it? They could tell you anything
[–]Bluenosedcoop 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
He's in Syria fighting for IS, That's cause enough to missile strike the cunt.
[–]Lookingfortruths 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
I agree, I was just saying, how can you be sure of someones guilt if the government refuses to disclose the evidence?
[–]danihendrix 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 4時間前 (5子コメント)
Its the same rules of engagement all armed forces use though. Everyone has the inherent right to self defence, which gives the right to take life to save life. Then there are further steps, lethal action for hostile intent, lethal action for hostile action and lethal for a positive identification. As this was carried out by the RAF I imagine they were sanctioned to use one of these further rules. It may rub you the wrong way but this is how things are done.
[–]BraveSirRobin -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前 (4子コメント)
Everyone has the inherent right to self defence
A plane dropping a bomb on someone thousands of miles from our homes is not "self-defence". That's South Park-levels of "he's coming right for us!".
Our involvement in Syria has been "offensive" since the beginning when we first threw our weight behind the Islamists as part of the wider bid to isolate Russia by removing every single one of their allies. Self-defence my arse, we're vying for total global domination.
[–]ScruffMcFluff 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
If someone's going to attack you with a knife and you shoot them. Is that not self defence?
The fact is he wanted to end British lives. Britain ended his. The method of his death is irrelevant.
[–]danihendrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Didn't say the inherent right was what was used. I even specified I didn't. That was to give a baseline.
[+][削除されました] 3時間前 (1子コメント)
[deleted]
[–]BraveSirRobin -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
What is that supposed to mean?
Is complaining about the fact that we almost allied with ISIS two years ago moronic? Or was it the part about claiming self defence while on the other side of the planet?
"Stereotypical morons" are the Sun/Mail readers who blindly believe our government on these matters. There are far more of them and they are measurably more stupid in every single possible way, a far more fitting use of such a moniker.
[–]Donald_Keymans_Wife 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Because we didn't listen to voices like yours, the USA now has the Patriot Act.
[–]edscouse 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Or until they themselves admit their own guilt, which they did repeatedly. On film and online.
[–]Lookingfortruths 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Like I said in another comment:
I wasn't talking about whether or not I think he is innocent, I was replying to the idea that it is right to accept government 'evidence' even when it has not been shown to you
[–]wantsbeforeneeds 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
This has to be one of the dumbest things said on Reddit.
[–]CircularMatrix -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 4時間前 (3子コメント)
Because they were in Syria.
[–]Lookingfortruths -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
Are you really saying that going to a part of the world should be a valid reason for being killed?
You can be on the scene of a crime without being involved
I am not even arguing that this guy is innocent, he very well may have been planning terror attacks.
[–]CircularMatrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
Yes, if you travel to a war zone in secret. Reputable people like aid workers and photographers register.
Not even remotely the same scenario.
[–]greytusk -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
How about paramilitary organizations à la ISIS Hunting Club? Are these reputable? Do you think people in that club go to the local mayor's office to register? It's not all black and white.
[–]henry_waco -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Yeah, I'm sure it has nothing to do with massive defense contractors wanting their industry to stay booming.
[–]Political_Diatribe -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2時間前 (6子コメント)
Extra judicial killing is illegal. We are not at war in Syria. Parliament forbade going to war in Syria and if he was attempting to attack the UK then he could be arrested when he got here, put on trial and sent to prison. That's how it works!
If we don't condemn this, then we are no better than the Americans.
[–]BenV94 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Well according him him; he was attempting to attack or organize attacks in the UK and there was no way to arrest him so by UN convention on self defense it was legal.
[–]mandalar -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
That sounds false on so many levels that I ask for a proof or source.
[–]wantsbeforeneeds [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Say that when these guys slip back into your country and start committing terrorist. Any Westerner who travels to Syria and joins IS is fair game. I would say even should be specifically targeted and eliminated for they can not return and wage jihad in the West
[–]alexgmcm [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I agree. I mean fuck, I knew Reddit had a load of contrarian smart-arse types but people here are seriously defending an ISIS fighter?
[–]Political_Diatribe [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)
We lived with terrorism for over 70 years and they could just hop on a ferry and bomb us. An idiot 5000 miles away with an AK47 is kind of lame. If/when someone starts their terrorist nonsense on British soil, then we'll deal with it as we have always dealt with it.
In the meant time we can make everyone safer by not bombing the shit out of the Middle East.
[–]mitre991 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
They bombed a terrorist group and killed 2 British guys who were a part of that group..
[–]anautisticpotato -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 4時間前 (13子コメント)
Really? Tested proof?
[–]BenV94 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 4時間前 (12子コメント)
According to the prime minister and evidence seen by intelligence agencies and the attorney general.
[–]anautisticpotato 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (11子コメント)
Well given the National Security council didn't fully meet, and parliament wasn't consulted, please do enlighten us as to what exactly was the evidence for remotely targetting British citizens. And is there some special reason I should believe the member for Witney, despite his repeated lies on many other subjects?
[–]Grytpype-Thynne 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 3時間前 (10子コメント)
So, a bloke of Asian descent that shows up in Syria, posts videos sympathetic to the cause of a terrorist organisation is the one for whom we should be worrying that his British legal rights have been contravened? I don't think we can export and kill these fuckers fast enough.
[–]Nicenightforawalk01 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Well said.
[–]anautisticpotato 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前* (8子コメント)
"Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake."
a bloke of Asian descent
I see your problem.
[–]Grytpype-Thynne 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 3時間前 (7子コメント)
How clear of a signal that, "I am your enemy and I want to kill you," do you need from people like this guy? He stated his intentions of video and would not hesitiate to do harm to you and yours.
Yeah - I don't care about the intricacies of international law.
I emigrated to the Continent but I have a lot of family in London and would much rather we kill possible terrorists than have another 7/7.
Life isn't some legal debate - real lives are at stake.
[–]anautisticpotato -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前 (5子コメント)
The penalty for that is not death.
[–]muircertach 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 3時間前 (4子コメント)
It would seem it is. See if you want to go play war in Syria don't be surprised when you die.
[–]Soulsiren 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)
Is Britain at war in Syria? I thought the parliament explicitly voted against that?
[–]anautisticpotato -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Well if you are happy with the government deciding who lives and dies you're more of a threat than these idiots.
[–]henry_waco -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 2時間前 (11子コメント)
If he is a citizen, he gets a trial. End of story.
Quit your propaganda bullshit.
[–]BenV94 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (9子コメント)
So we have a citizen who is in IS territory who is a threat to our people.
How do you propose to give him a trial? Who arrests him?
[–]Political_Diatribe [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (3子コメント)
If he comes to the UK, we arrest him. If he doesn't, then we put out a warrant via Interpol to arrest him when he steps into a country that has extradition agreements.
You know. That damned law stuff that makes sure you and I can walk around without the government shooting us because we looked at them funny.
[–]BenV94 [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Except he was an immediate threat to the UK now.
If you let him operate in this moment, he will put people at risk. How do you arrest him right now? You can't, so the option is to let him put lives at risk or to kill him in self defense in the name of the realm.
[–]Political_Diatribe [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)
in the name of the realm.
lol. Now I know you're American which explains your viewpoint.
[–]BenV94 [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Check where I post if you wanna feel better really.
[–]PSCLAI 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
You sound like an American.
[–]henry_waco -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)
If I had a budget of $62 billion, I'd find a way that didn't involve completely disregarding/violating one of the most basic rights in a free society. The protection of that right is more important than the protection of a few lives.
[–]mitre991 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Erm, at what point is he considered an enemy combatant when he's a part of a terrorist group that has declared war on Britain?
[–]henry_waco [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)
If he's a citizen, it's the point at which he's convicted of the offense.
Keep saying "war" and "terrorist" like they actually mean something. In real life (not on TV), Lord Janner is a bigger threat to Britons than ISIS.
[–]mitre991 [スコア非表示] 34分前 (0子コメント)
Sorry but while you may be right about ISIS as a single organization, you're dead wrong about radicalized muslims being less of a threat to Britons, heck look at the disruption ISIS has caused to Europe by sending waves of refugees, who knows how many extremists are hidden among them.
He's fighting an illegal war, butchering civilians, they bombed a known terrorist base and 2 traitors got caught up in it, the fact that people are disgusted by this really annoys me.
Be annoyed that the airstrike shouldn't have happened without parliment approval, but not because 2 disgusting individuals who joined a terrorist organization died.
Quite!
When did Britain become such a bunch of woosies - scared of some nutter a few thousand miles away?
We used to have them a couple of hundred miles away and we still let them tarmac our driveways :)
[–]BraveSirRobin -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
whether there is evidence that he is a terrorist and actively plotting
The government lies consistently about such things, it would generally be safe to assume they are not being truthful.
[–]sazupt 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Those are some funny british names.
[–]sourpuss_ashkenazi 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
blow them to smithereens and posts the drone's vids to liveleak. Something to laugh at after dinner with family and friends.
[–]isonem 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
I really don't see the problem here. If an American was killed in an airstrike in Syria and they weren't military or an aid worker, fuck them straight in to hell..
[–]FatherSplifMas 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)
The problem is that paralament hasn't voted to allow military action in Syria yet. They voted against it in 2013 ( I think), admittedly the situation has changed alot, but the action is still undemocratic.
[–]Psyk60 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Yes, it is somewhat undemocratic, but the decision to undertake military action is rarely put to a vote. In the UK it's a royal prerogative, which in practical terms means the PM can make decisions like that without consulting Parliament.
It's rare that parliament votes on it. The PM chose to do it that way, but I don't think the result prevents him from going ahead and doing it anyway.
[–]FatherSplifMas [スコア非表示] 7分前 (0子コメント)
I see what you mean, but what I was trying to say, and failed, is that there was supposed to be a vote on military action called by the PM happenging soon. However the PM decided to go ahead and invalidate his own idea.
[–]arealbigboss 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
They were piece of shit traitors and they deserved to die. Hope they had painful deaths those fucking pieces of trash. I doubt their 8 year old wives are going to miss them.
A briton that was a part of ISIS mind you.
Why give these scumbags the attention.
[–]uk--ok 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
No. sympathy. at. all.
[–]diglaw [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I live in Cardiff. Perhaps Reyaad Khan's martyrdom will inspire more Jihadis to leave this city and get themselves killed. If enough of them go, Cowbridge road will not look like its in Riyadh or Dhaka anymore.
[–]Akasazh -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
I didn't know the Rote Armee Fraktion was still active. /s
[+][削除されました] 6時間前* (4子コメント)
[–]ID_tagged 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
He was plotting to attack the UK, there's also the possibility that the drone was under fire and needed to retaliate. Cameron seemed pretty serious when it came to justifying the action.
[–]RyuujinZER0 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Cameron seemed pretty serious when it came to justifying the action.
Cameron seems pretty serious when he tries to justify a lot of things; like shifting most of the countries budgetary burden onto disabled people and the poor or keeping proportional representation out. He debates most passionately when he knows he's wrong.
[–]Soulsiren 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Hmm, tangentially your point about retaliation is quite interesting. A person acting in self-defence is one thing, but a drone? Is protecting a drone a valid reason for lethal (or potentially lethal) retatliation against a person? Instinctually I would suggest not; a person has a life to defend, whereas a drone does not.
[–]AgrajagPrime 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
A drone under fire doesn't need to retaliate, it's a machine!
If someone took a sledgehammer to my car it's not justified to run them over.
[–]Bumaye94 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
I was confused for a moment.
[+]AgrajagPrime スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 5時間前 (29子コメント)
I really don't know when we introduced capital punishment without a trial in the UK.
Obviously, he had the capacity to do awful things and I don't doubt he was planning on doing them, but basically, a British National was executed for what most accurately could be called 'aiding the enemy' or perhaps even 'treason'.
I know it's between a rock and a hard place, it just doesn't sit well with me.
[–]daninmontreal 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 4時間前 (4子コメント)
If you join a terrorist organization like Daesh and go to Syria to actively participate in mass genocide and the slaughter of innocents you don't get to have a trial. He wanted war, he fucking got it. Should we bring IS fighters to court instead to hear their side of the story? This is not how wars are fought.
[–]Soulsiren -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)
Are we at war in Syria? Didn't parliament explicitly vote to reject that?
[–]DetlefKroeze 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
The rejected motion seems to be explicitly tied to the August 21 chemical attack, so would probably not extend as a blanket rejection of any military action in/over/or against the Syrian government/Assad regime (whichever you prefer).
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmagenda/ob130829.htm
Or at least that is how I read and interpret the damned thing.
[–]Soulsiren 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前* (0子コメント)
In which case -- if we are at war in Syria -- should we not have then had a seperate vote to affirm that?
Since, after all, when there was a vote regarding Iraq, the motion noted that "this motion does not endorse UK air strikes in Syria as part of this campaign and any proposal to do so would be subject to a separate vote in Parliament".
Though at another point, Cameron said that "if there was a moment when it looked as though there could be an urgent humanitarian need for intervention, I would be prepared to order that intervention and then come to the House and explain why", I am not of the feeling that he has actually followed through on this convincingly. Would you disagree?
[–]AgrajagPrime -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
We're not at war with them though.
[–]Grytpype-Thynne 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Well, when you or someone else can go and get a guy like this, then maybe we can try them. Until then, the sole act of joining a terrorist organisation warrants a combat death.
[–]greytusk 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
I agree. The lynch mob mentality reddit cannot understand how separation of powers in a civilized state should work. UK parliament voted against military intervention in Syria a year ago, UK is not at war with Syria and so executing nationals over there is very worrying. We'd be furious if Russia or Iran did it, so why the hypocrisy?
They should learn from Awlaki story. Didn't do much good to the US, did it?
Rights are something that should be upheld on principle. If we don't uphold people's rights when it is unpalatable to do so, if we ignore people's rights when we personally find their actions at fault, what is the point of having those rights?
[–]CircularMatrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (17子コメント)
What other purpose could they have for being in Syria? It is not like there were aid workers. That is enough proof for me to convict and kill them. It is also enough to put their families under surveillance for the forsee able future.
[–]Soulsiren -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
Yeah, the thing is that "enough proof for me" and "enough proof for the judicial system" are -- and should be -- different. We see this issue pretty often with these emotive subjects. It's pretty natural for us to have that sort of reaction, but the whole point of the having rights is that we uphold them on principle regardless of the case, and that we avoid these sort of trials by emotive response. Imagine if it was a case that you didn't agree with the verdict on an emotional level. Ignoring rights just because we agree with a given case defeats the point of having those rights. Even when I agree that the people in question are really awful, it makes me a bit uncomfortable to see people saying that this justifies taking their rights away -- because that is potentially such a dangerous slippery slope, and not something I want to see the government engaging in.
[–]CircularMatrix 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
There is no police force in Syria. It is either kill them or let them continue plotting attacks. Those are the only two options. So you take them out and keep their families under surveillance for two reasons:
Their own protection.
Someone may get in contact with them from ISIS.
I don't agree that those are necessarily the only options -- you could also try to foil the attacks as they come.
Regardless, my qualms are basically two. Firstly, the decision to use lethal force on a British citizen (whereas in Britian we don't have the death penalty). Here, I can see some argument regarding practicality, as you have made.
Second is a qualm with the process in making that decision. The lack of a police force in Syria really doesn't affect the British judicial process (after all, there is precedent for in absentia trials). I am simply not very confident in the process regarding terrorism charges. In large part, this is because of the way that the government has used terrorism over the last 14 years: it has consistently been one of the chief rhetorical justifications of a movement towards the erosion of people's rights. It is something like the case of the boy who cried wolf. I have heard so much rhetorical exagerration of the terrorist threat to freedom (often in order, it seems, to impose upon that freedom) that it becomes difficult not to be skeptical of any case of the government justifying any of its actions via protecting our country from terrorist plots.
[–]anautisticpotato -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 4時間前 (13子コメント)
What other purpose could they have for being in Syria?
How about fighting the cultish, oppressive Syrian regime that is killing their friends and family?
[–]CircularMatrix 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (12子コメント)
They why did they go in secret? Why did they not join any of the groups devoted to that?
[–]anautisticpotato -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 4時間前 (11子コメント)
We won't know now, will we?
[–]CircularMatrix -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 4時間前 (10子コメント)
We do know. They went in secret because they wanted to join ISIS.
[–]anautisticpotato -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前 (9子コメント)
Prove it.
[–]CircularMatrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (8子コメント)
Simply because you don't like the answer doesn't make it any less true.
[–]anautisticpotato -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 3時間前 (7子コメント)
And your assertion without proof is meaningless.
[–]CircularMatrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (6子コメント)
You have yet to give any other meaningful reason asto why they would sneak into Syria. Occam's Razor gives us that. They were there to join ISIS.
[–]KingJewffrey 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)
It's not capital punishment, it's war! This individual joined an enemy military organization, Britain is part of a coalition making war against that organization. Are you seriously saying that every member of ISIS should be arrested and trialed? Is this how you think war should be made? By capturing every enemy combatant and putting him on trial? I guess then that every German that died in WW2 received a capital punishment as well.
[–]AgrajagPrime [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)
1: we're not at war, the UK government explicitly voted against going to war or any operations in syria.
2: it's not foreign combatants, it's a British national.
[–]KingJewffrey [スコア非表示] 10分前 (0子コメント)
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL#British_airstrikes
[+]Mogg_the_Poet スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 5時間前 (17子コメント)
Some jackass forgot to turn friendly fire off.
[–]CircularMatrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (16子コメント)
Are you trying to suggest that those two weren't terrorists?
[–]anautisticpotato -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 4時間前 (15子コメント)
Do you have any proof they were? That's what we're entitled to before sentence is enacted.
[–]CircularMatrix 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (14子コメント)
Do you have any proof they were?
Yes. They were in Syria and not registered with any recognized aid or resistance group.
That is not proof of anything. They may well have been part of a group receiving NATO weapons to fight Assad, whom we hated last year.
If they were with a group recieved NATO weapons they would have been registered like the thousand or so American volunteers fighting there.
[–]anautisticpotato -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 3時間前 (11子コメント)
Bullshit.
[–]CircularMatrix 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (10子コメント)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/18/us-volunteers-isis-fight-veterans-recruitment
[–]anautisticpotato -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 3時間前 (9子コメント)
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that because the Guardian says that something does happen (and I don't doubt it does) that we can then extrapolate that this is what has happened in this case? Pointing people at propaganda is not making an argument.
[–]CircularMatrix 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (8子コメント)
No. I am saying that these fuckwads were in ISIS and deserved to be killed. The other guy is saying that. My point is that if there were going there t fight ISIS they would have joined one of these groups. They didn't so occam's razor says that they were there to join ISIS.
π Rendered by PID 7851 on app-07 at 2015-09-07 21:31:36.116211+00:00 running f67e6f2 country code: JP.
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