全 104 件のコメント

[–]TheLoreAxe-Speaks For The Trees🌲🌷🌲 4ポイント5ポイント  (29子コメント)

I just read through the new rules, most of it seems reasonable within the limitations of running a subreddit.

My primary curiosity is what constitutes a personal attack? If someone says something shitty and my response is "go fuck yourself" am I going to get banned? Do I have to say /u/someasshole go fuck yourself? Is this a requirement to be fully polite with everyone or are you specifically trying to prevent witch hunts? If so you might want to add some more clarifying wordage.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_/ post-structuralist[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, so if a rule of the same spirit as "no personal attacks" were to be instituted here, what do you think it should read like and how should we implement it? I'd like as many of your (and anyone else's) thoughts on this.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (27子コメント)

what constitutes a personal attack

There's always going to be a little moderator discretion (primarily enforced through warnings until people get the idea). But yeah, if someone says something shitty then report them, don't tell them to go fuck themselves. That way the mods can remove them and we actually know there's a problem, too.

It's not politeness that I think is important - I post all the time on SRD and I am nowhere near polite, despite a similar rule - it's just that threads full of direct insults really suck. So "I think ancaps are fucking ridiculous" = OK, "I think you, /u/ancap, are a fucking idiot, fuck you for existing" = not OK, "I am going to report /u/ancap for saying child slavery is great" = what the mods want most.

A separate witch hunt rule is a good idea. I'll think of some way to write that in.

[–]-Enkara- 0ポイント1ポイント  (26子コメント)

You'd ban people for calling ancaps, fascists, and cops pieces of shit.

Also, please stop removing my fucking posts.

EDIT:

As requested, I created the relevant thread about you in meta but you deleted it.

You are silencing me.

[–]Squee--Nothing is more to me than myself! 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Sooooo, you're finally banning min?

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hahaha. Min is currently temp banned for a few more days in meta.

Under the change in rules, though, bans of borderline users need 50%+1 instead of 2:1 majorities (obvious cases of trolls and bigots get banned on sight, of course), so if Min doesn't clean up their act I'm pretty sure a ban would go through without much trouble. Or at this point it will go through regardless of what they do.

[–]Squee--Nothing is more to me than myself! 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's actualy a huge shame because sometimes min has some really good things to say and is a welcome contributer, it's only a few topics they are super shitty on and that seems mostly out of arogance/stubbornness than anything.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Don't say that too loud, you will bring the horde of min haters down on you...

I agree to some extent but they are way too invested in this shit. I tried really hard to get them to back off from the controversial topics but they just flat out were unable to do that. So, they brought it on themselves.

[–]Squee--Nothing is more to me than myself! 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yea, I completely agree, min has dug their heels in, in reaction to the backlash of controversial ideas instead of dropping them or keeping them to themselvesm it's completely there own doing but with some compromise and empathy this might have ended in a much better result.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

> some compromise and empathy

> /r/anarchism

> lol

[–]Squee--Nothing is more to me than myself! 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

some compromise and empathy.

me saying that.

...I must be sick or something, am I loosing my mind?

[–]Vindalfr 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

What constitutes a personal attack?

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Fuck you, you piece of shit!

Ahem. You get the idea. Check out how SRD defines it, typically really heated, long back and forths, or direct insults. It's not going to be "be nice to the fash or risk being banned" or anything like that, just "if someone is shitty, just report them, if you're debating with someone don't start insulting them".

It's honestly a really good rule where it's been implemented.

[–]Vindalfr 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

How about changing it to "don't be a dick" I think that covers a lot more useful ground.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's way too broad, though, it's fine to be a dick. Cutting down on direct insults alone is really the only important thing.

[–]Vindalfr 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, no its not fine to be a dick. It's not fine to engage in a conversation just to undermine it with smiles and flowers. It's not OK to load up a post with amateur propaganda and call it an honest conversation.

I do not value people adhering to decorum, I value their honesty. What has been undermining these boards IMO, is the clear inability for many of us to muster the good faith necessary to actually resolve the issues that plague us.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't you keep talking about trolling and not arguing in good faith for fun?

Look, you can't force people to be nice. You can tell people they can't directly personally insult someone and they can't troll. I think that's what mod policy should be, the latter not the former.

[–]Vindalfr 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't force people to be nice but you sure as shit can give them an incentive to be honest. Once that happens it becomes very clear what actions are appropriate.

[–]Capn_Blackbeard 4ポイント5ポイント  (16子コメント)

You are unilaterally changing some things that were decided by consensus.

This guideline states that "active" is defined as having at least ten comments in /r/anarchism. You have rewritten that to be 15 comments in /r/anarchism in the last two months.

This guideline states that proposals need a quorum of at least 10 eligible voters in order for it to be valid. You have changed it to 15.

It also states that in order for a proposal to be considered as passed there must be two times the number of support votes as there are oppose votes. You have changed this to 50% plus 1.

I don't like mods unilaterally changing rules that were proposed and voted upon. When I was a mod I tried very hard to get guidelines hammered out the correct way not the way you are going about it.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (15子コメント)

You're posting right now in the thread that is for public input, these are by no means being implemented as is. If you want to keep things at 10 votes, then propose that be done. In a few days we'll look at all the different ideas, try to incorporate them into the text, and then have a big vote whether to accept the new rules or not.

I'll tell you right now though that there's a good reason these new rules are different from the existing ones, though. Check out the last 20 meta threads and how much of a terrible shitshow they almost all are. 50%+1 for ban threads means there is actually a possibility of borderline trolls being banned, before it was almost impossible.

[–]Capn_Blackbeard 2ポイント3ポイント  (14子コメント)

Here's the thing, I shouldn't have to "propose" it be kept the way it was originally discussed and voted upon. The onus is on you to change it correctly.

I was a mod and I stepped down because of the virtual impossibility of getting things done. I understand, I really do. But just giving yourself more powers is not the answer. That path is a dangerous one.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

The onus is on you to change it correctly

Which is... what's going to happen. We're going to have a new vote. If you don't like the way it's written, either a) propose a change or b) vote against it when the time comes.

But just giving yourself more powers is not the answer. That path is a dangerous one.

I understand that, but the paramount goal here is having /r/a being a functional forum for anarchist organization. It is not a model of anarchist organization in itself, because Reddit isn't set up for that. If it's between "acting more anarchist" or "making this sub more effective", I'm going to learn toward the latter, within reason. And I don't think putting new rules out for public comment and vote in response to a gigantic breakdown of functionality in metanarchism is not within reason.

[–]Capn_Blackbeard 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

Who defines "effective"? The people giving themselves more power....?

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (11子コメント)

The sub is more effective if its not paralyzed by constant fights and drama between mods and users. The more time mods can spend on moderating, the more effective they are.

[–]Capn_Blackbeard 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

As I pointed out, you want to make it harder for people to vote (by raising the minimum for eligibility) and you want to make it easier to ban (by lowering the threshold for "passing") so it really seems that "more effective" equals "mods can do what they want with less roadblocks".

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

If you participate in /r/metanarchism, you will see why these or something similar are good ideas.

  1. Massive amounts of sockpuppets appearing almost daily, historical use of them to skew votes. Known cases of people making sockpuppets and waiting a couple months, with bare minimum activity, to vote.

  2. Competing cliques of trolls fighting each other, making 2:1 majorities for ban proposals literally impossible to reach no matter how bad the trolling is

  3. Because of #2, people simply create the same ban proposal over and over again. Min has had, I think, a double digit number of identical ban proposals that have all failed.

Do you not see how these dynamics need to be reversed if metanarchism is to be at all useful beyond a containment zone for the drama loving trolls of anarchism? Of course if you have an alternative I'm all ears.

[–]Capn_Blackbeard 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Can you can the fucking condescension for five minutes?

As I have said before, I was a mod here and if you don't recall that because you are too new then maybe you should step the fuck back before telling everyone else what the problem is here.

I have participated in meta and I did it the correct way by gaining consensus via proposals instead of this fucking power play by you.

People can make tons of repeated proposals and you know what? It doesn't fucking matter. If the consensus is to not ban it will continue to be to not ban. Or people will just ignore the fucking things and there will never be enough votes for action. These problems take care of themselves.

Stop treating everyone like children who need a babysitter.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

I have participated in meta and I did it the correct way by gaining consensus via proposals instead of this fucking power play by you.

What am I doing that is a "power play"? What power am I taking? What action have I made that has changed anything? I proposed some new rules for people to look at, that isn't a power play.

People can make tons of repeated proposals and you know what? It doesn't fucking matter.

See, at first I thought this. Then the drama started, and the yelling, and the bullshit. Don't kid yourself, 90% of the modmail and messages over the past two weeks have been because people were mad that Min wasn't being banned, and then the problems that situation caused. It isn't something we can just easily ignore. People are getting extremely upset because they think Min and their friends are literally fascists who are destroying /r/anarchism, and if we don't ban them we are just as bad. Cosmic, before being banned and shadowbanned, said I was like a cop blaming rape victims for not agreeing that Min is a Nazi.

Nobody is ignoring the ban proposals, unfortunately. I wish they were, and I would completely agree with you and I wouldn't have taken this route of proposing new rules. But... things didn't pan out like that.

[–]emma-_______oppressor of cis people 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't like the wording of 'zero tolerance policy' about racism, sexism, etc. It can easily be interpreted by misogynists to allow bans for shit like 'misandry' or 'reverse racism'. The wording in the AOP is much better:

Oppression is defined as any language or action that expresses, reinforces, upholds or sympathizes with any form of systemic social domination, including but not limited to: eugenics, patriarchy, cisnormativity, white supremacy, heteronormativity, capitalism, etc...

Notice how it uses more specific words like patriarchy or cisnormativity instead of words like racism or sexism that don't specify what direction the oppression goes.


In addition, the /r/anarchism community has a "no personal attacks" rule. Debate is encouraged, but angry rants about other users are not. We understand that sometimes following this rule can be difficult, but if someone is breaking the code of conduct, don’t call them names, please report it instead!

This is a bad rule. People are going to be angry at bigots who come here, they should be able to express that. I see no problem with people calling bigots names or yelling at them. Telling targets of bigotry that they have to be nice to the bigots targeting them is one of the worst things you can do. It's tone policing. This rule makes it so that you can be banned for being mean to fascists. Any type of rule like this that doesn't take into account axes of oppression is going to help trolls as much as hurt them.


Personal attacks and trolling are afforded two warnings before one week temporary bans are instituted, with repeated infractions subject to longer bans.

Why does this have a long specific series of actions whereas other rules are up to moderator discretion? I don't like these sort of guidelines because there's different levels of personal attacks and trolling that warrant different levels of moderation.


Wherever possible, offending users should be directed to /r/anarchy101 or similar subs for education, which holds true for user bans as well.

This only really makes sense in cases where the user is an anarchist or socialist who said some bigoted stuff but would be willing to learn.


you are not currently banned from /r/anarchism (an exception is made for voting in proposals directly concerning you)

I don't think there should be exceptions like this. It should be the rest of the community deciding even if it does concern them.


ban and unban proposals will not be considered until

  1. 48 hours has passed.

  2. they have received at least 15 votes total.

In cases of an obvious troll or bigot I don't think we should wait that long. Just remove them and let the voting continue for the 48 hour period. I also think that requiring 15 votes to ban someone is ridiculous. A lot of bans aren't voted on because everyone knows they're being banned anyway. This is way too much for a simple ban. Maybe something like 4 or 5 votes would be reasonable.


proposals that change important rules or the nature of the subreddit will not be considered until

  1. 72 hours has passed.

  2. they have received at least 15 votes total.

  3. if the first two conditions have been satisfied, then these proposals are linked in /r/anarchism for an additional 72 hours of voting.

I don't mind a longer vote period for important votes, but 6 days is too long. I also don't like the requirement for linking it on /r/Anarchism. Just make it 72 hours with linking in /r/Anarchism being up to moderator discretion depending on how important the rule changes are.


identical or very similar proposals must not be made, unless:

  1. three months has passed since the previous proposal.

  2. there is significant new information.

  3. repeated abuse of this rule will result in a permanent ban from both subreddits.

I don't like this rule, especially when combined with the requirements for number of votes above. There could be a vote to ban a fascist, but their ban thread only gets 14 votes, then they'd be free to post fascist propaganda for another 3 months before they can be banned again.


Your 'rule convention' is way too complicated and elaborate. It has the same problem with the 2 72 hour periods that the I mentioned above. I also don't see the need for a difference between an 'important rule change' and these. Just allow people to make rule change proposals whenever they want like we do now.

first, a "rules convention" must be opened. rules conventions can only be held if one has not taken place in the last 6 months, and like other proposals, attempts to open a convention can only be made every 3 months

Having a several month requirements between them doesn't allow us to respond quickly if something comes up.

once a rules convention has been opened, the user who created the proposal receives the "speaker's position". this position is subject to the following rules:

  1. the speaker's position allows a user and only that user to create rules change proposals.

  2. the speaker's position allows a user to choose to close the rules convention.

  3. the speaker's position may be transferred to another user upon the conclusion (i.e success or failure) of a rules change proposal, but only at that time.

Rule changes should be much more collaborative than this. Limiting proposals to a single person for up to almost a week is a bad idea. Generally this 'rule convention' seems like a lot of trouble for nothing.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_/ post-structuralist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

All of this is super great. Thank you so much Emma. I'm going to start working on an official proposal to document and present what's wrong with this new set of rules and post it sometime this evening after a few more comments come into the various "rules" threads.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Notice how it uses more specific words like patriarchy or cisnormativity instead of words like racism or sexism that don't specify what direction the oppression goes.

This is true, but the AOP came across as a little pretentious and confrontational. I was hoping for something that retained the firmess of the AOP but was a little more friendly and readable. We could definitely modify how it is now to some half-way point that doesn't admit MRA trolling or bullshit like that, but is still a little friendlier than the AOP.

People are going to be angry at bigots who come here, they should be able to express that.

They can just report it and they will be banned, though. So many threads here are just full of bigots trolling people and starting big name-calling fights and it's really annoying. It's not like the bigots will be protected or anything, or that people have to be nice to them. Not telling someone to fuck off isn't being nice.

an anarchist or socialist who said some bigoted stuff but would be willing to learn.

It's hard to tell sometimes. A lot of people are defiant but eventually come around. Unless they're an obvious lost cause, just linking them to an educational sub can't really hurt, can it?

I don't think there should be exceptions like this.

The practice beforehand seems to have been that banned people could ask for their unbanning in meta, though. Should we end this practice? I don't much care either way, really.

In cases of an obvious troll or bigot I don't think we should wait that long.

Those cases don't go to meta at all, so it's not an issue. They just get removed and banned.

I also think that requiring 15 votes to ban someone is ridiculous. A lot of bans aren't voted on because everyone knows they're being banned anyway

Well, with clear guidelines the only people that are going to be up for a ban are borderline trolls. Like the recent cases of min thamee etc, where there's nothing a mod can point to as deserving an instant permaban but enough people have been angry to fight over a proposal. In these cases the more users the better, so groups of friends don't just gang up and fight each other as is currently the case (and a big reason why meta is basically broken). It's not really "community consensus" if 6 or 7 friends just ban whoever they want, or indefinitely fight with 3 or 4 friends of a different clique.

I don't mind a longer vote period for important votes, but 6 days is too long...

One big issue with meta is that very, very few regular users from /r/anarchism actually participate. At the same time we don't want to be constantly linking to the main sub for frivolous stuff, as I'm sure you agree. The way it's written, we don't need moderator discretion - if the community thinks it's important enough by voting, then someone links it and allows more time to vote. But I'll think about this.

I don't like this rule, especially when combined with the requirements for number of votes above. There could be a vote to ban a fascist

Again, though, fascists don't get votes. They just get banned on sight. It's not really a problem.

Your 'rule convention' is way too complicated and elaborate.

This is exactly the point of it. If it isn't complicated and hard to pull off, then for sure a collection of sockpuppets and trolls will come along sooner or later and wreck the place again, requiring someone like sync to fix it and cause massive amounts of drama by people wanting "the community" to fix it using broken rules instead of a top mod exerting their authority.

That being said, I'm definitely open to tweaks. I just want it to be hard to change the rules once they are in place.

[–]emma-_______oppressor of cis people 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is true, but the AOP came across as a little pretentious and confrontational. I was hoping for something that retained the firmess of the AOP but was a little more friendly and readable. We could definitely modify how it is now to some half-way point that doesn't admit MRA trolling or bullshit like that, but is still a little friendlier than the AOP.

I really don't see how the AOP comes across as pretentious. And it's not 'confrontational' to anyone except bigots, which it's supposed to be. I don't see the need to make it friendlier to bigots. I also don't see what you mean by calling this more readable. These guidelines don't seem any clearer than the AOP to me.

They can just report it and they will be banned, though. So many threads here are just full of bigots trolling people and starting big name-calling fights and it's really annoying. It's not like the bigots will be protected or anything, or that people have to be nice to them. Not telling someone to fuck off isn't being nice.

Eventually they'll be banned, but in the mean time you're angry at this bigot who's come here and told you that you have no right to exist. "Name-calling" targeting those bigots is a natural reaction. Your literally telling people that they can't be mean to bigots or they can be banned. It makes targeted minorities feel way less comfortable here when they aren't allowed to attack back, and will drive many out of this community.

It's hard to tell sometimes. A lot of people are defiant but eventually come around. Unless they're an obvious lost cause, just linking them to an educational sub can't really hurt, can it?

It could result in /r/Anarchy101 being filled with bigoted trolls if we send too many over there. In my experience most of the people we ban aren't the type who'll eventually come around. In other cases we usually just explain what they did wrong in a warning and they change their behavior before they're banned.

The practice beforehand seems to have been that banned people could ask for their unbanning in meta, though. Should we end this practice? I don't much care either way, really.

They can ask, but they shouldn't get a vote. It's an important distinction.

Those cases don't go to meta at all, so it's not an issue. They just get removed and banned.

They often do. Anyone who's not a mod can't ban them, so they'll often make a post in meta proposing they be removed.

Well, with clear guidelines the only people that are going to be up for a ban are borderline trolls.

As long as people other than mods can make proposals, this is never going to happen. Any type of person worth banning could end up with a ban thread.

In these cases the more users the better, so groups of friends don't just gang up and fight each other as is currently the case (and a big reason why meta is basically broken). It's not really "community consensus" if 6 or 7 friends just ban whoever they want, or indefinitely fight with 3 or 4 friends of a different clique.

There's really very few groups of friends on here, especially ones that all vote together. A few people here know a couple of each other in real life, but I'm pretty sure most are anonymous. The so called 'cliques' that get mentioned here are just users who happen to have similar voting patterns.

One big issue with meta is that very, very few regular users from /r/anarchism actually participate.

It's always going to be this way. very few people here are actually interested in the details of moderation. Most of the people who actually care about it are already in metanarchism. Almost every meta post in this sub has a bunch of comments saying how they don't care and to keep it in meta.

Again, though, fascists don't get votes. They just get banned on sight. It's not really a problem.

It's just an example. It can still apply to other trolls who aren't as overt as fascists.

That being said, I'm definitely open to tweaks. I just want it to be hard to change the rules once they are in place.

Needing 2/3rds of a large number of required votes should be enough to make it hard to change. It's pretty rare for a proposal to get that many votes unless it's generally agreed on by the community.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_/ post-structuralist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This too. Once again, thanks for all of the feedback, I appreciate it immensely.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really don't see how the AOP comes across as pretentious. And it's not 'confrontational' to anyone except bigots,

It's angry and filled with theory-like phrases. There are other ways of saying the same thing that don't throw people under the bus or change this from being a safe place.

Your literally telling people that they can't be mean to bigots or they can be banned

Mod discretion is huge here, though. If somebody comes in and says "Kill all Jews" before we catch it and 5 people have said "fuck off nazis", then we could just remove all the comments so that people don't keep piling on and remind people to report it, not fight with the troll. If two people are just getting into a fight and telling each other to kill themselves, then we remove the posts and give them warnings. I really don't want to be implying that people will ever be banned over cursing out the fash, it's just that it will be policy to remove trolls and bigots along with the people feeding them, and then it will also be policy to break up ugly fights between users in other places.

It could result in /r/Anarchy101 being filled with bigoted trolls if we send too many over there.

OK, well I can just add "with moderator discretion" instead of "whenever possible".

They can ask, but they shouldn't get a vote. It's an important distinction.

OK, if people are alright with this then we can just write in a rule that they can still make a proposal about themselves but not vote, or something similar.

They often do. Anyone who's not a mod can't ban them

Right, but then they get banned and the meta thread is moot. If the guidelines are clear about that then we can cut down on the amount of meta ban proposals in the first place.

The so called 'cliques' that get mentioned here are just users who happen to have similar voting patterns.

Regardless if they are real life friends or not, it's obviously been a serious issue here.

Needing 2/3rds of a large number of required votes should be enough to make it hard to change.

I guess I am ok with just having 2/3 of 30 votes supporting with 6 days to vote instead of a rules convention idea. I am still worried that it can be hijacked by some dedicated troll groups, though. I don't want for a top mod to have to keep sorting shit out when it gets broken.

[–]mustskunk(vegan) -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't like the wording of 'zero tolerance policy' about racism, sexism, etc. It can easily be interpreted by misogynists to allow bans for shit like 'misandry' or 'reverse racism'.

Oh no, the poor misandrists and racists!

[–]lilit_leader of the salad liberation front 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

Personal attacks are literally the result of forced proximity with trolls and reactionaries. This is not going to solve anything.

And before you whine about me, I proposed additions to the aop to clarify and elaborate on transphobia and misogyny years ago, and no one ever carried it out.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is not going to solve anything.

It will. You see a troll or a reactionary, you report them, they get banned. At no point will personal attacks be necessary. We've all seen those threads where it's 50% people insulting the troll who is clearly loving it, that doesn't help anyone.

I proposed additions

OK, well we have some nice new rules now, and I'd like input on the "zero tolerance" section in particular. Is it broad enough without being too vague (it should be easy for mods to use it to ban people without needing to take it to meta, for instance)?

[–]exiledarizona 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

The irony here is that every forum, organization, meeting, anything I have ever participated in directly or indirectly in my entire life am over 30 FYI once or if the no personal attacks rule is implemented it made process, goals, decisions and spirit leaps and bounds better.

What you are saying here is listen to me, we need to be able to personally attack users for the better of this forum. So I say this to you, show me any evidence where this has ever been successful for anything ever.

You wanna know what I think? White kids and manipulators of all sorts took a political idea regarding "tone policing" which is good in theory. Suited it for themselves making it negative in context and use it to carry out their own poor behavior. Justified through the worst kinds of social ideas that kids who want to fit in still fall for.

It reminds me of this friend who was getting involved in politics who heard about the concept of the personal as political. Unfortunately she didn't understand the concept and came out with the idea that people had the right to know about the personal lives of people they do political work with. It's interesting how this was just the assumed function. Think about that for a second.

And maybe the greatest irony is that the past almost 10 months on r/anarchism have been some of the most productive. When we essentially had this rule as unspoken but enforced.

[–]lilit_leader of the salad liberation front 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

Did these meetings also tolerate being hijacked by liberals whining about why you dontdon't devote time everyday to personally educate reactionary shitheads? I'm gonna say probably not. This is the context in which such a rule is worthless and misses the point.

[–]exiledarizona 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yes absolutely they would be all the damn time. Hijacked by all sorts of people. Name the dysfunctional personality and it's been around. You say "hey, we are anarchists we believe in free association, this isn't the group for you"

[–]lilit_leader of the salad liberation front 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

If we did that here, there wouldn't be any need for the respectability politics bullshit.

[–]exiledarizona 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Isn't that what we are suggesting? What am I missing here?

[–]lilit_leader of the salad liberation front 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Suggesting where? Jack has done little besides silence their detractors and slander the mods who actually do shit. I can hardly see any proposal of theirs leading to more reasonable, swifter bannings.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

slander the mods who actually do shit

First, it's libel, not slander. Second, it's not libel, because that word has an accepted definition. Third, what you seem to want is authoritarian mods who break the rules to ban people you don't like when votes fail (i.e Min), but then mods who try to bring some peace are slammed as authoritarian hacks.

[–]boilerpunx 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sync literally broke the rules on multiple occasions to demod and ban someone he didn't like. Nothing he posted constitutes harassment. There weren't even any pms as far as we know, and we don't know anything because he's refusing to be held accountable. You're the only one, mod or not, defending his actions. And then you come out of nowhere with this list of new rules almost no one knew about, not even other mods.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sync literally broke the rules

Some time ago it was voted on that his job would be to demod and ban people who were abusing their mod positions. This is exactly what he did with Cosmic. I realize you and several other people had similar views as Cosmic on moderation and/or were friends with them, so you disagree with that action. But to anyone who is looking at it objectively, it's pretty clear that Cosmic was abusing their position. I don't see what rule was broken there, and the top comment by far on the thread sync made basically said "who let these idiots out of the containment sub we made for them" which should be a wake up call for everyone obsessed with this infighting.

And then you come out of nowhere with this list of new rules almost no one knew about, not even other mods.

If I had just made it as a proposal in meta, what's the difference? It will be viewed here by more than the same 10-12 people who hate everything and just want to fight. These rules aren't implemented yet, they're here for input and editing and then a vote.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I don't see what we're losing by not banning personal attacks. The main consequence will just be one of us warning people to knock it off, anyway, I think it will just make discussions go a lot smoother.

[–]-Enkara- 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Would your rule against personal attacks include something like blaming me for the downfall of Occupy?

[–]lilit_leader of the salad liberation front 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course not, if you read the fine print there's an exception for valiant crusaders against drama.

[–]Vindalfr 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Are we to consider these rules instituted?

Why is there no call for a vote?

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

No, and because we're getting public input and then editing the rules accordingly, so a vote at this stage would be useless. Just wait a few days to see what ideas people come up with.

[–]Vindalfr 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Seems reasonable.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have been trying very, very hard to be reasonable since I became a mod. It is not easy.

[–]Vindalfr 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm going to be hard on you, but for your part, you are doing well.

[–]jackrousseaushit talker[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I appreciate level, reasonable criticism that is not based on a personal vendetta. This is somewhat rare here as of late.

[–]Vindalfr 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

LoL. It's a victory that it's even happening at all.

I've had a front row seat to every shitstorm in this place for the past 4 years... This is going extremely well.

[–]-Enkara- 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Oh so now you're gonna fucking delete my comments whenever I say something that embarrasses you?

Pointing out how you contribute to the shit in SRD is not spam, grow the fuck up.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_/ post-structuralist[M] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's really important to me that we, as a community, are able to figure this out. I'm going to do my absolute best to get the problematic parts of these rules altered to be more agreeable. Like I've told several people already it will help me a whole lot if you you number your critiques in an orderly way.

It's most optimal if you could present a what, why, and how an alternative would look, but definitely not necessary for valuable input.

So far it's clear there is some issue with "No Personal Attacks in r/Anarchism". What else? Keep 'em coming.

[–]Vindalfr 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

1) this was not presented as a discussion. The OP reads like a blanket rule changes.

2) this neglects past proposals and rules that have been voted on. You and Jack really should have done/do more research in this respect.

3) As a whole, acknowledging that there is long standing drama, but then focusing in on "personal attacks" strikes me as a but tone deaf and somewhat ignorant of what the actual beefs are. I have no problem with mods making authoritative statements, but they have to have some basis in community concensus or their own social capital. The authoritative posture has been slipping into authoritarian action lately and we should guard against that.

I may edit later.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_/ post-structuralist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just reply again for my organizations sake. I'm going to ask questions but I'm not trying to deny anything that you just said.

  1. For #2 Could you highlight where we didn't do our research please? I understand there are things we got wrong, but I'm not sure where. I've made it a point to understand the past proposals and what wasn't right about them, even going years back when I could dig up the thread. Also Emma-________ always has spot on historically accurate analysis and I do my best to listen to their advice when it comes to structural changes -- see their comments in this thread to see what I'm talking about.

  2. could you define "authoritative statements" especially in context to "Authoritarian action" please?

  3. Excluding demodding people, what would you suggest to be added to the new guidelines to be more appropriately set up to guard against "Authoritarian action" (these aren't scare quotes)?

[–][削除されました]  (11子コメント)

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    [–][削除されました]  (9子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–][削除されました]  (8子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]-Enkara- 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Undelete my comment please,

        thanks.

        [–]TheLoreAxe-Speaks For The Trees🌲🌷🌲 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

        omg the drama is already real

        [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]-Enkara- 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

          I totally mind that you keep trying to silence anything I fucking say.

          [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

          [deleted]

            [–]-Enkara- 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            It's relevant that you'd rather build a space here that appeals to the userbase of SRD.

            [–]-Enkara- 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Stop deleting my posts