260
261

Jonathan Toews regarding Patrick Kane situation: "You stay together as a team and you support your teammate." (twitter.com)

GRiZZY19TOR - NHL が 投稿

上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 361
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]salapenoWPG - NHL 126ポイント127ポイント  (3子コメント)

"As long as we stick together as a team, we'll be alright"

-D. Byfyglien

-J. Toews

[–]BusinessCat88ANA - NHL 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

God damn that Game 4 chant

stick to-geth-er

[–]1337nerdWPG - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Popped into my head to as soon as I read it too.

[–]DustinByfuglienWPG - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey! That's my thing

[–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 59ポイント60ポイント  (7子コメント)

The host was very slippery by suggesting Kane's case but then asking Toews to generalize.

[–]ozzianPIT - NHL 22ポイント23ポイント  (5子コメント)

I bet "no Kane questions" was a condition on doing the interview.

[–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 31ポイント32ポイント  (4子コメント)

I would think so too. But regardless of the legal outcome, the team PR staff should probably work with the players so that they don't come across as equating cheating with rape accusations or as supporting a teammate regardless of what they do off the ice.

[–]ozzianPIT - NHL 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

Absolutely agree, but I'm wondering if that's why he didn't have a better answer prepared and instead started rambling (cause that's what it sounded like).

[–]shinykungfumonkey 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It sounds like he is sticking to the script and ignored the writers sly attempt to get him to talk about the Kane issue.

[–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know if it was a script versus standard hockey media training - relatively innocuous clichés (stay together, work together, etc) repeated.

[–]bonelaydeCHI - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that was definitely part of it. He didn't know how to answer, so he fell back on the usual fillers that get asked in hockey, and this time it backfired for him.

[–]ladykelMIN - NHL 55ポイント56ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that's a very important point to make. On one hand, I agree with what /u/golf4miami is saying in this thread--I'm not comfortable with Toews treating this like any other summer bad press story, not comfortable with him saying someone accused of rape is "going through a rough patch."

But on the other hand, it was kind of a (mis)leading question. Obviously Kane's situation is a little different than someone getting caught drunk driving, or rumors about cheating, and obviously it's gotta (I hope) affect teammates' opinions of him differently. But since the host mentioned Kane and then moved away and generalized the question, Toews kind of has to answer the way he did or else he'll look like a bad captain, or like he's looking for an opportunity to talk about Kane.

[–]crazy_canuckleheadBOS - NHL 29ポイント30ポイント  (30子コメント)

Full transcript

[–]badseedjrCHI - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I really don't see the controversy behind this. The interviewer asks him how he handles it "as the captain of a hockey team." Not as a person or a bystander. He keeps his team together and focused on hockey as the captain. If Kane is charged and found guilty, he'd say the same thing, he keeps his team together and focused on hockey, and then Kane wouldn't be part of that team anymore. The spin jobs going on in this thread are insane.

[–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 39ポイント40ポイント  (25子コメント)

Thank you for this. I really don't know how to feel about what he said. Saying things like, "We don't allow things that happen on the outside of the locker room effect things inside it," really seems to me like turning a blind eye to the whole thing. It's like saying, "Oh you can be a dick and do whatever you want in your personal life, but that doesn't matter when we get in here."

It's kind of tone deaf.

[–]BroadCityChessClubPIT - NHL 40ポイント41ポイント  (16子コメント)

"Oh, you can be a dick and do whatever you want in your personal life"

That's a massive understatement. I'm guessing Toews is trying to suggest Kane is innocent, and considers rumors/false accusations to be what's "going on on the outside", but since we can't assume he's innocent, it comes off as "I will happily play with a rapist if he's good at hockey."

[–]MilburyHasAnalWartsPIT - NHL 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm guessing Toews is trying to suggest Kane is innocent, and considers rumors/false accusations to be what's "going on on the outside", but since we can't assume he's innocent, it comes off as "I will happily play with a rapist if he's good at hockey."

The fact that he equated it with the ridiculous Sharp rumors seem to support your point.

[–]MarianasTrenchPIT - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

but since we can't assume he's innocent

But why not? Saying that means you are assuming that he is guilty. The truth is we just do not know and there are not enough details provided.

Not suggesting that Toews handled the interview as well as he could, but it also feels like there is a big push for someone to say Kane is guilty whether he is or he isn't.

[–]The_Hanged_KingMichigan Wolverines - NCAA 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

Saying that means you are assuming that he is guilty

Or that because I do not have sufficient information I'm not assuming anything. Really no one should be assuming guilt or innocence. Both are equally baseless from our outsider position.

[–]theboyblueTOR - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

In cases like this, if you do not assume anything, you are leaning toward a guilty verdict (just saying based on being a lawyer).

It is better to say that because there is insufficient information to prove guilt, you will presume innocence until more information is presented. That is how the law works in the America's, you are innocent until PROVEN guilty.

So /u/MarianasTrench is actually right.

[–]Whiteoleander2 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh my god, enough with this "innocent until proven guilty" stuff. That's in a COURT OF LAW. We're on Reddit. Do you also assume OJ is innocent? He was found not guilty in criminal court, right??? I'm not saying that Kane is necessarily guilty, but it's ridiculous to take the stance that fans are obligated to believe whatever a court rules. We aren't, and we don't. I'm pretty sure you've believed differently about a celebrity court case at some point in your life. We all understand that Kane has that legal right. We all hope that, if tried, it's fair. But stop telling people not to have their own opinions. We're not fucking lawyers. I have no personal obligation to assume innocence.

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

    [–]New_SlurmCHI - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    He's talking about his other teammates though. He's basically saying that if Kane were to be put in prison that they would still be able to go play hockey because they are professionals who can focus on their job.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]Blackhawk7CHI - NHL 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

      But the question wasn't about Kane, it was about dealing with team issues, right? I doubt Toews condones rape.

      [–]Trumpisgod 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      You sound like someone who has never been in a locker room before

      [–]GeekYogurtCBJ - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Brother. The time to fix your broken flair is now. Follow the Saad. You know in your heart it's right.

      [–]TornsysCHI - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Haha, I like you. Let me take this opportunity to ask what you think of Jenner. I really liked what I saw from him against Pitt a couple years ago.

      [–]GeekYogurtCBJ - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'll put it in equation form:

      Boone Jenner + 5 Years = (Mike Richards - Drugs)*(Milan Lucic - Cocksuckery)

      [–]Beartoes1Dayton Bombers - ECHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Not OP but I love Jenner. He has the nickname Jennerator for a reason - High Energy, every shift. Reminds me of a Marchand/Gallagher type in that sense, but toss in a power forward with captaincy in his future

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]TweetsInCommentsBot 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        @ChrisKuc

        2015-09-03 22:22 UTC

        Full transcript of #Blackhawks' Jonathan Toews commenting on Patrick Kane situation on @TSN1290Radio:

        [Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]

        This message was created by a bot

        [Contact creator][Source code]

        [–]BorrumUSA - IIHF 220ポイント221ポイント  (63子コメント)

        Captain of the team can't come out and say, "Yeah we've got to trade this bastard he's probably guilty and this'll be a PR nightmare".

        Innocent until proven guilty, so you've got to stand by your teammate. Nothing else to really say.

        [–]SildasTOR - NHL 31ポイント32ポイント  (4子コメント)

        It's not just teammate, it's friend. I don't expect anyone to get up in front of a TV crew and throw one of their good friends under a bus.

        [–]crazy_canuckleheadBOS - NHL 109ポイント110ポイント  (15子コメント)

        "No comment"

        would have been by far the best option. Even saying that the team has asked them to not talk about it is better.

        [–]BorrumUSA - IIHF 78ポイント79ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I don't hate what Toews said. The organization should stick with no comment thing no doubt, but as the captain and morale leader of the team I think it's ok to stand by his teammate until proven guilty.

        [–]lordjedediahLAK - NHL 50ポイント51ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Or at the very least until they've been arrested.

        [–]aquaberry_dolphins 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Or even charged with anything

        [–]New_SlurmCHI - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        If he replied no comment I bet people would speculate about that too.

        [–]RoadZombieDET - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I don't see how? You'd still have people saying the same thing except "Oh that's just a copout" and etc.

        [–]Google_Your_Question 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

        You can't "no comment", Toews has to support his teammate unless proven otherwise. His answer was perfect.

        [–]sweetcircusDET - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Agreed, there is no true value in that comment he made, it just opens the door for criticism towards himself.

        [–]NS24NJD - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        EXACTLY. There was nothing he could say that wouldn't invite criticism in some way. Just say nothing.

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          [–]bemeren 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

          The season needs to start already -- all the assumptions in this thread are giving me a headache.

          [–]BorrumUSA - IIHF 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          True that

          [–]Clearly_OpaqueDET - NHL 15ポイント16ポイント  (14子コメント)

          I agree with you on it being a PR nightmare, and any answer given in that situation is pretty fragile, but there is definitely a better way to answer that...

          Toews could have at least qualified his answer by saying that he and/or the team/organization do not condone the kind of behaviour that Kane is accused of. Instead, he gave a full answer stating and restating generally that the team needs to stick together and support their teammate through a "rough patch".

          While Toews was put in a tough situation to try and get yourself out of off the top of your head, ultimately, I see this answer as a blunder. It's similar to the Kings' support for Voynov and maybe even the whole gay rights debacle whit Datsyuk when he was back in Russia, although that admittedly might be a bit of a stretch comparison, as showing unwavering support for somebody who may have committed a violent crime is a little bit different than giving a vague, non-specific answer about a controversial topic. Either way, it's just another example of an athlete being put in a tough PR situation by a reporter and giving a bad/controversial answer.

          [–]Google_Your_Question 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

          What on earth is bad/wrong/controversial about his answer? Does anyone actually think Toews is a fan of rape just because he didn't explicitly include a statement clarifying that he does not support the behaviors Kane is accused of? I hope not, because I'm a fan of less idiocy in the world.

          [–]Clearly_OpaqueDET - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Pretty sure nobody in their right mind would come to that conclusion... and that's not at all what i was suggeting.

          The point is that when something like this happens the leader should make a definitive statement condemning that type of behaviour, whether Kane did it or not, if for no other reason than to establish clearly that the organization doesn't take something like this lightly and isn't feeding the "entitled rich athlete" nature that has become more and more prevalent and is leading to this kind of thing more and more often lately.

          On top of that, lots of kids look up to Toews like a hero/role model... if for no one else's sake than theirs, he should have made it clear and definitive that that regardless of Kane's guilt or innocence, that sort of behaviour is completely unacceptable, instead of just proclaiming unwavering support without addressing what Kane may have done.

          [–]Google_Your_Question 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

          But that wasn't the question. He was asked about his focus and his teammates going into camp with the media presence around them. The question didn't have anything to do with any allegations whatsoever, and he did a fine job answering what was asked. To suggest he should have worked some ancillary social commentary into his already-complete answer is ridiculous

          [–]jerry200890Japan - IIHF 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

          Why does it need to be said a person doesn't support rape? Some people are just fucking morons.

          [–]UnrelatedComa 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

          How would you know they don't support rape, or rape people in their free time, if they don't tell you so?

          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

            [–]bigfatphonyEDM - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

            The problem with the Voynov situation isn't that they're supporting him. It's that they terminated other players immediately for much milder transgressions. If the King's came out and said, "we're not trading Voynov, we know he did something horrible, we don't condone what he did, and we're going to work with him to make sure he never breaks the law again", they'd STILL be in the wrong, because they didn't give Richards or Stoll the same treatment.

            [–]devoshireMTL - NHL 15ポイント16ポイント  (20子コメント)

            These days it should be no comment until proven guilty or innocent. Treating someone like they're innocent and providing that support publicly can be a big mistake.

            [–]BorrumUSA - IIHF 59ポイント60ポイント  (19子コメント)

            You are never "proven innocent". You are innocent until you are proven guilty. That's how the legal system works. Currently he is innocent, and while his situation is looking pretty shady, I think it's ok for Kane's captain to show some support.

            [–]1point-21-jigowatzCHI - NHL 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I think oj and Casey Anthony helped to create this gray area.

            [–]Mad_Hatter_BotCHI - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            If the gloves don't fit, you drop them and duke it out

            [–]wicknestSJS - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

            he may currently be innocent, but society doesnt see it that way these days. once youre accused of something like this, youre automatically labeled as a rapist.

            edit: not sure what the downvotes are for. if you dont think thats how society thinks, then i just feel bad for you

            [–]BorrumUSA - IIHF 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            While that sadly may be true, it's a flaw of media and society and absolutely should not affect how Toews approaches the situation in this semi-official setting.

            [–]wicknestSJS - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            i like what Toews said, as long as he keeps it at that. He wont adhere to the majority of society and its "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. i feel like showing support for your teammates as captain is a way of reminding everybody that we should not just jump to conclusions in these situations. If he decided to not show support, it would imply to society that his teammates are against him, only making that mindset worse.

            コメントをもっと表示する (14 返事)

              [–]TwentyhundredDET - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

              I really respect him to state what probably are his true feelings about the matter. I don't know the full story, and we don't even know if Toews does, but if it were my team mate, I'd stick with him even after he was found guilty, PR nightmare or not. Sure, I'd think he's an idiot, but I wouldn't all of the sudden shun him. Even far far away from this situation, as not even a CHI fan, I feel kinda sorry for Kaner. I've been downvoted for saying this before, but man he's going through a rough patch. Imagine if he's not guilty at all and that woman is just some power tripping attention whore.

              [–]rusticnachoMTL - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I'm not sure why you were downvoted but I'm not surprised. R/hockey seems to have assumed guilt as soon as the first headline was announced.

              [–]MentalseppukuCHI - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Probably because of this:

              I'd stick with him even after he was found guilty

              That means he'd be sticking by someone who was a convicted rapist. This isn't like one of your childhood friends, this is a teammate on a professional team. The only thing keeping any two players together are the whims of a GM, you don't owe your life to your teammate.

              [–]coachjimmyCHI - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I think (and hope) that PR isn't a huge concern for Toews or any other players.

              [–]jerry200890Japan - IIHF 90ポイント91ポイント  (6子コメント)

              Holy fuck, people are reading way, waaaayyy too much into this. Do you people actually think Toews is some sort of sociopath or something, that he would defend rape? Incoming dumbass Tim Baffoe article in 5,4,3,2....

              [–]ricker182 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

              This was predicted in /r/Hawks.

              Jonathan Toews does not condone rape. I guarantee it.

              [–]thedudermanCHI - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Other than rapists, does any rational human actually condone rape?

              [–]New_SlurmCHI - NHL 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I think the people who say things like "She was asking for it" condone rape.

              [–]djw319STL - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Yeah, almost no one explicitly condones rape. But there are lots of ways to implicitly condone rape, and lots of people who unknowingly do. Which, as I understand it, is the whole concept of "rape culture."

              [–]ricker182 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Rational? No.

              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                [–]something_clever1994CHI - NHL 42ポイント43ポイント  (6子コメント)

                ITT: people thinking this makes Toews okay with Rape.

                Just because he didn't outwardly express a sentiment doesn't mean he doesn't hold it. He's probably been fed lines from the front office and PR team for weeks now.

                [–]topcopontheforceCBJ - NHL 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

                I suspect the PR people would not be all that pleased with him equating a rape investigation to cheating rumors. If these are PR lines, they're not good ones.

                [–]something_clever1994CHI - NHL 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

                How is he equating this to cheating rumours? Did I miss something? Besides, Kane is, as of right now, innocent. While a rape accusation is a serious thing, its not as if his team mates have to treat him like he's already been tried and convicted.

                [–]topcopontheforceCBJ - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                He compared the current situation in his comment to the 'rumors around the locker room earlier the season' which is a reference to that nonsense about how there was locker room tension because of Sharp cheating with peoples' wives. They don't have to treat him like that, no, but they could do as the Kings teammates did (quoted downthread) about letting the justice system examine the situation instead of talking supporting one's teammates directly.

                [–]Wood_ApeCHI - NHL 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Uh, no. He's equating rumors of one thing to rumors of another thing. That was the point he was making, not equating rape to adultery.

                [–]something_clever1994CHI - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                He never compares the two actions of adultery and rape. He compares the effect its having on the team. Obviously this could have been worded better, but he's a hockey player, not a wordsmith. Back to my original point, the guy isn't condoning rape. Or even downplaying it.

                [–]Cmrade_DorianNSH - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Also remember Kane has been accused of rape. he has NOT been convicted. Innocent until proven guilty. If I were his teammate I'd stand by him too.

                Now if he is proven guilty I'd change my tune, but until then he's my teammate & the team sticks together.

                [–]something_clever1994CHI - NHL 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

                I don't get it. Let Toews support his currently innocent teammate. If, heaven forbid, Kane did rape that woman, Toews can then denounce those actions or refuse to comment or whatever he deems fit.

                Why can't Toews change his mind as the situation develops? There's nothing wrong with that.

                [–]Emmuzka 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                It's totally ok for him to assure that off-ice matters won't effect their teamwork on ice.

                It's totally not ok to compare cheating rumors and actual ongoing police rape investigation as the same kind of locker room atmosphere ruiners.

                [–]ubiquitous0bserverPIT - NHL 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                This just in: Toews regurgitates whatever bland statement Hawks PR has concocted, on pain of death.

                I suspect any Hawks player will be mildly supportive of Kane if asked by the media - it's not like they're gonna come out and speak their minds on this whole shitfest.

                [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                also, dude hasn't even been charged yet - I really think the response would have been much different. Especially since he starts out saying "for the time being..."

                [–]rdee3 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                nhl 16 cover is just gonna be a floating stanley cup at this rate

                [–]youlookflyGreat Falls Americans - WHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                That's actually a great idea. Floating Stanley Cup would be tight.

                [–]freckledbuttPIT - NHL 33ポイント34ポイント  (11子コメント)

                This just makes me so uneasy. I understand that he doesn't want to think a friend/teammate he's known for years and won 3 cups with is capable of such an awful thing. But comparing the situation (however loosely) to rumors about one teammate sleeping with another's wife just feels terribly insensitive. I'd feel a lot better with his comment if he just stuck to talking about focusing on the work of hockey for training camp or something to that effect. And the worst part is just looking at the responses to the tweet. I've already seen "good enough for me" and things like that. No matter what, the comment of a teammate who wasn't there and has no idea what actually happened is not enough to clear suspicion of rape. But people will take his word as something very valuable and allow it to clear doubts about Kane and what he possibly did from their minds, which isn't good. (edited for spelling)

                [–]kvltc0re 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

                I understand that he doesn't want to think a friend/teammate he's known for years and won 3 cups

                This is the part that makes me feel bad for Teow's and a lot of the other Blackhawk's. Some of the best memories of their lives are with this guy, if he ends up being guilty? I don't know about you but that would throw a tonne of shadow on the things I worked my entire life towards, and it would absolutely suck for them.

                [–]illusorydoomPHI - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                I think it sucks worst for the girl Kane took advantage of. It's not like there weren't similar accusations in the past.

                [–]RikplaysbassBOS - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

                Where was this compared to the rumors about Sharp? I didn't see that.

                [–]freckledbuttPIT - NHL 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

                In the full transcript when he says, "You support your teammate...uh, teammate, teammates that are maybe going through a rough patch. You know, we saw it last year with some rumors that spread around through social media about several guys in the locker room."

                [–]tpiddles121PHI - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                That's not equating rape with cheating, he's equating what he believes to be two "false accusations overplayed by the media."

                While that in itself is a problem, it's a more neutral stance than you seem to believe.

                コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                  [–]Google_Your_Question -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  He's addressing the response of the players in the locker room to external rumors and accusations, saying that you stick together until you can't. He's not comparing the social situation, he's comparing the internal reaction and explaining how you hold a team together as its leader in the face of unproven accusations.

                  [–]IDquad8819CHI - NHL 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  People are making a big deal out of these comments when they're literally nothing. It's annoying as hell. The amount of people trying to twist his words to mean he supports rape is very disappointing

                  [–]buckeye_bakerCBJ - NHL 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  at the end of the day we always say to each other what is said and what is done in the locker room is the only thing that really matters. We don't want anything going on on the outside affect the way we do our job and the way we come to work together as a team.

                  If a violent crime was committed outside the locker room it probably should affect the way you come together as a team. But I might be misunderstanding what he meant exactly.

                  [–]Google_Your_Question -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  On a moral level? Sure

                  But being a good team leader in the workplace isn't always the same thing as being a moral leader.

                  [–]SssnapdragonMIN - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Sounds like the NFL slogan.

                  [–]BroadCityChessClubPIT - NHL 23ポイント24ポイント  (39子コメント)

                  This is an important perspective I hadn't thought of before.

                  [–]KorrectingYou 55ポイント56ポイント  (22子コメント)

                  What's she trying to claim here? He's accused of a crime. He claims he didn't commit the crime. Aren't friends/family in those cases supposed to be supportive, regardless of what the crime is?

                  The idea that Kane's teammates should abandon him because someone accused him of something is pretty ridiculous.

                  [–]birdsong4jMTL - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (11子コメント)

                  She's making the point that assuming a person who was accused of rape is innocent means assuming the accuser is lying. Many, many rape victims don't come forward because they fear no one will believe them. And when it comes to sports teams, the "stick together" mentality gets even more pervasive.

                  If Toews believes Kane is innocent, that's his business. He knows the guy personally and none of us do. Doesn't mean he's necessarily RIGHT, but he gets to have an opinion on Kane's character that none of us are qualified to have. But too often in cases where sports stars are accused of things like this, you get not only the team and associated personnel "standing behind" the accused, but also the fans. The Steubenville case is a great example, and that was just a high school football team.

                  [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  But his comments weren't "i'm standing behind Kane! He's innocent!" it was "for the time being, we're going to stick together, and not let this affect our hockey." Key words being "for the time being," as in before more information comes to light. As of right now, with the information we have, he's trying to be supportive of his friend. I have no doubt in my mind that if he's charged/convicted, he wouldn't still support him.

                  [–]birdsong4jMTL - NHL 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  Sure, and I'm more using this particular situation to explain what the person quoted was talking about. Which is rape victims in general feeling like no one will believe them, and the reality of sports team culture making that even more of a factor. I don't know if I would have answered the same way Toews did, but it was a live interview, and he was on the spot. I'm certainly not going to use this one quote as a way to say "Jonathan Toews supports Kane even if he's a rapist" or anything.

                  [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  I definitely think that's fair. You're right about rape victims; it's why so few of them come forward. This whole thing is just awful.

                  [–]djw319STL - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  This has been a pleasantly civil exchange to read, especially for a discussion of rape on the internet. Good job you two.

                  [–]KorrectingYou 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  She's making the point that assuming a person who was accused of rape is innocent means assuming the accuser is lying.

                  Which one of them is being accused of a crime? The accused is the person who gets the benefit of the doubt. It's actually pretty damn important that the accused is the one who gets the benefit of the doubt, doubly so when the accusation is something as serious as rape.

                  [–]Cmrade_DorianNSH - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Exactly the shadow of doubt & burden of proof are on the accuser. That is how the U.S. Justice system works.

                  [–]Google_Your_Question -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  I think the problem that no one is talking about bluntly enough is that rape is hard to prove. Unless they have a personal relationship, people tend to not believe other people when they can't prove things, especially when they're serious accusations. Which is highly rational, especially if accompanied by having a personal relationship with the accused.

                  コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                    [–]BroadCityChessClubPIT - NHL -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

                    Yeah, you stay supportive if they claim to be innocent, but you shouldn't say you're supportive no matter what. If my teammate, friend, even relative rapes somebody, I'm disowning them. Toews's statement doesn't leave any room for that.

                    [–]ajamesineachframeHartford Wolfpack - AHL 33ポイント34ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    He did say for the time being, I think that leaves a lot of room.

                    [–]B0mb-HandsEDM - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Agreed

                    Kane's innocent? "We supported him through this difficult matters and are thankful they've been resolved."

                    Kane's guilty? "It's unfortunate that these matters came to be resolved this way and we feel we don't really know him [Kane] as well as we once thought"

                    [–]ArainvilleCHI - NHL 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Supporting someone does not equal supporting their actions. A criminal needs support in order to be rehabilitated, which should be everyones goal if the accused is guilty

                    [–]KidShowtimeWPG - NHL 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

                    He did not say, "no matter what."

                    Let's not put words in his mouth.

                    [–]BroadCityChessClubPIT - NHL -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    There's always a lot of things being said and things going on off the ice but no matter what, we do a good job of sticking together.

                    [–]MidgetLovingMaxxCHI - NHL 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    You seemingly left out the four sentences before this where its abundantly clear hes talking about negative media situations in general and not specifically the Kane situation. But of course you know that.

                    [–]Cmrade_DorianNSH - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Delayed Penalty

                    It's clear from the entire quote you link, that Toews is talking about the team as a whole sticking together, no matter what negative attention they are getting. He even mentions:

                    You know, we saw it last year [emphasis mine]with some rumours...

                    Hell you fucking cherry picked & left out the interviewers question:

                    ...most people are aware of a situation that has been developing regarding one of your teammates. Obviously I won't ask you to comment on anything like that [emphasis mine] but when something like that happens...

                    He states he is specifically not asking about that, but things like that, An allegation and the negative media attention surrounding it. Kane has not been found guilty. Kane is, as far as we know, not a rapist and therefore the interviewer is not talking about a rape, but an accusation of rape. No matter what a teammate is accused of, you stick together. Now when they are convicted of something, that can change.

                    [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    He's saying as a team no matter what they're going to stick together. He was asked as a captain of the team how he deals with this stuff - he answered by saying he's keeping his team together.

                    [–]KidShowtimeWPG - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Well shit. I am wrong.

                    [–]TweetsInCommentsBot 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    @JulieDiCaro

                    2015-09-03 22:21 UTC

                    I get what Toews was trying to say, but all the "we support our guy" statements are a big part of the reason rape victims don't come forward

                    This message was created by a bot

                    [Contact creator][Source code]

                    [–]imicitUSA - IIHF 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    fruit: low hanging and easy to pick. Even if he said "no comment" there would be people saying things like this.

                    [–]phuckfillyPIT - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    That's fucking bull shit. If my best friend was accused of rape, and he denied it, fuck yes I would support him. Accusations =\= guilt. The entire world should not support the victim and assume the rapist is guilty instantly.

                    コメントをもっと表示する (13 返事)

                      [–]SHAnaNEgansCHI - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      This quote is a such a non story

                      [–]shinykungfumonkey 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      It doesn't sound like he gave an answer to a Kane specific question. Toews literally made no comment about the Kane situation but instead talked about the kind of issues that they had to deal with the past seasons.

                      [–]blasphemersCHI - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      The most ridiculous thing about this whole situation, is I have yet to see an official statement where has has been accused of rape. Everything I've read claiming he has been accused is from an unnamed source. Yet, everybody is treating him as if he is guilty.

                      [–]bigfatphonyEDM - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      This is the sad thing about today's outrage culture. Kane allegedly did something horrible. It sucks, and if he's guilty, he should be punished to the full extent of the law, and should feel personal regret for his actions.

                      But should everybody who loves him desert him? Should every person in his family (and a team is a family) no longer care about him, shut him out of their lives?

                      And if they don't, if instead, they try to help him does that make them "monsters"?

                      To many people today, just providing some comfort to somebody who made a mistake makes you a horrible person. Seeing a person as more than their transgressions just isn't a thing anymore.

                      It shouldn't be this way. How did it get like this?

                      [–]86TeuvoTeravainenCHI - NHL 8ポイント9ポイント  (20子コメント)

                      That's all he, or anyone, can say. They're not gonna come out and say they're rooting against him... Or that they neglect his acts because he hasn't been proven guilty.

                      [–]bonelaydeCHI - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      It sounds like he was trying to answer broadly, since the interviewer mentioned kane but then asked him to speak more generally.

                      And the 'for the time being' part of supporting his teammates seems like he was allowing room for his judgement to change later on based on proceedings.

                      [–]G4MMPIT - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (18子コメント)

                      They can say 'no comment'. They don't have to say they're actively supporting him either since he also hasn't been proven innocent.

                      [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 29ポイント30ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      You don't prove someone innocent, you prove someone guilty. Big difference.

                      [–]canadamCGY - NHL 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      The first thing you learn in PR classes is to never use 'no comment'. The media can take a lot of liberties with that statement, and it almost always makes it look like you're hiding or covering up something.

                      [–]le_canuckTOR - NHL 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      It would be pretty easy for "No comment" to get drummed up into a big "Hawks locker room atmosphere like a funeral; Kane allegations loom over team" story too.

                      [–]Grompher 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      For Simpsons fans; "Rowdy Roddy Peeper".

                      [–]BarrillCHI - NHL -5ポイント-4ポイント  (9子コメント)

                      He's their teammate. He's innocent until proven guilty. 'Nuff said.

                      [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

                      So because he their teammate, they have some insight into whether he could or did rape or assault someone?

                      [–]eliar91VAN - NHL 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      If someone was accused of a crime with no concrete evidence being shown yet, would you expect their family and friends to not support them?

                      [–]BarrillCHI - NHL -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      Maybe, maybe not. It's been looking good for Kane in regards to the case lately, but either way just from a objective standpoint, he is innocent until proven guilty.

                      [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      What do you think has "been looking good for Kane"? As far as I am aware, the public knows basically jackshit about the case or where it stands.

                      From a legal standpoint, Kane is innocent until proven guilty. It is not an objective standpoint.

                      [–]sapprhoCHI - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      Considering how long this will likely drag out, I'm not even sure what the Blackhawks can do at this point once training camp comes along. Maybe give a blanket "No comment" at the very beginning of camp and make it perfectly clear that no questions regarding the Kane investigation will be answered by anyone within the organization? If they allow Kane to attend camp, immediately place him in a media bubble and never make him available?

                      [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Unless media are completely barred from Chicago's locker room, I don't know how the team could completely place Kane in a bubble.

                      [–]birdsong4jMTL - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      If the situation is still the same when training camp rolls around, I would bet they have him train separately and privately, rather than have the whole team deal with the media distraction.

                      [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      There is no way Kane should be attending camp until this is solved.

                      [–]deus216WPG - NHL 13ポイント14ポイント  (16子コメント)

                      I don't really like that response. I mean, you should be supportive, but you need to add a qualifier that you don't condone any of that behaviour if it is in fact true, not: we stick together no matter what (rape, murder, etc.)

                      [–]TigerWizardOwen Sound Attack - OHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                      not once did Toews say "no matter what" so let's not reach

                      [–]turtlesinspacePIT - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      He did. "There's always a lot of things being said and things going on off the ice, but no matter what we do a good job of sticking together."

                      [–]shinykungfumonkey 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      It was a general answer to a general question. No where did the interviewer asked him specifically about his view on the Kane situation. Some people are suggesting that he should have said "no comment" before the whole transcript was posted and that's exactly what he did. He made no mention of Kane and his legal troubles but instead talked about how they handled the previous seasons locker room and off ice rumours/problems.

                      [–]deus216WPG - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Uh what? Yes he did...

                      コメントをもっと表示する (10 返事)

                        [–]NWLierlySJS - NHL 11ポイント12ポイント  (82子コメント)

                        I don't think this canned answer is going to be acceptable for very much longer as culture evolves.

                        If Kaner was accused of something else would this be alright to say?

                        [–]yungmurdaNJD - NHL 47ポイント48ポイント  (21子コメント)

                        Yes, because our justice system is supposed to operate under the assumption that a defendant is innocent until they are proven guilty.

                        Supposed to operate that way. Realistically it's often the other way around, as your question sort of implies.

                        edit: I realize that the public does not have to assume one is innocent until proven guilty, I just think that its kind of over stepping to say that Toews has done something morally/ethically wrong by expressing hope that his teammate didn't do what he's accused of.

                        [–]crazy_canuckleheadBOS - NHL 32ポイント33ポイント  (17子コメント)

                        In the court systems, yes.

                        Publicly? Those rules dont apply.

                        [–]BroadCityChessClubPIT - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        And that's only for criminal cases. Civil suits rely on the preponderance of evidence (i.e., you only have to be 51% sure, rather than 100%).

                        [–]therealsylvosNYR - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        No, it's for civil cases as well. Innocent until proven guilty. The only difference is standard of proof. In criminal you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise it doesn't count as proven guilty. In civil you only need the preponderance of evidence to be proven guilty. In both cases you are innocent until proven guilty.

                        [–]pateyhfxNJD - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

                        Well they should.

                        [–]JankinatorWSH - NHL 35ポイント36ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Courts require that evidence beyond a reasonable doubt for a "guilty" verdict. This is good, because it prevents innocent people going from jail. But it does not prevent guilty people from avoiding jail by getting a "not guilty" verdict if there was not enough evidence.

                        Rape is a notoriously difficult crime to prove for the legal system to reach a "guilty" verdict. Again, this prevents innocent people from going to jail. But it doesn't mean that they are truly innocent if a "guilty" verdict isn't reached.

                        [–]theboyblueTOR - NHL -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Is that actually true - in regards to the rape cases? I know there was a few stories just this summer of guys who had been charged for rape, who were actually not guilty. And in I believe 2 of the cases the girl had lied.

                        [–]DrHampantsCHI - NHL 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        The domestic violence charges against Ray Rice were dropped. Therefore, Ray Rice is not guilty of domestic violence, even though everybody saw the video of Ray Rice knocking out his wife.

                        See the issue?

                        [–]I2eflexTOR - NHL 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        I think the public knows Bill Cosby raped women, but because the legal system didn't nail him for it we should think everything is okay? Don't think so bud.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                          [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          our justice system

                          TIL that a quote on the radio is the justice system.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                            [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (52子コメント)

                            This is what I was getting at with my response below. What is the list of things Kane would be accused for that this acceptable for?

                            • Missing a practice?
                            • Drunk driving?
                            • Doing drugs?
                            • Carrying an illegal firearm?
                            • Domestic abuse?
                            • Rape?
                            • Murder?

                            I don't think this response is acceptable at all. Especially if Toews doesn't know any of the details.

                            [–]NWLierlySJS - NHL 10ポイント11ポイント  (18子コメント)

                            What if it was Brown on Voynov?

                            "I'd rather talk about hockey" or "No comment" are going to have to be the new canned answers.

                            [–]lordjedediahLAK - NHL 21ポイント22ポイント  (16子コメント)

                            The Kings players all responded without "sticking by" Voynov.

                            [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 11ポイント12ポイント  (15子コメント)

                            Brown, on if he was able to reach out to Voynov: I have not talked to him personally. I’m not sure, I can’t really speak for anyone else, but obviously this all came down really quickly. It’s an unfortunate situation, our job as players here is to focus on the game and let the legal part of it play itself out.

                            Our job as players here is to focus on the game and let the legal part play itself out.

                            Jarret Stoll, on his reaction to Slava Voynov’s arrest: I think we’re all disappointed and it’s unfortunate that we have to deal with this. But I hope that everything can get sorted out and obviously it’s a legal matter now. I think you guys all know what that means. We can’t do much talking about that and that all has to play itself out within the legal system, which is obvious.

                            But I hope that everything can get sorted out and obviously it’s a legal matter now. I think you guys all know what that means. We can’t do much talking about that and that all has to play itself out within the legal system, which is obvious.

                            Stoll, on whether the NHL’s response to Voynov’s arrest was appropriate: Our organization supports the decision. We all support the decision. It’s unfortunate what happened, but again, it’s in the legal system now. I can’t really talk about that part of things. [Reporter: Just the sense that the NHL seems to be much more aggressive than the NFL, for example.] I have no comment on the NFL. That’s a different league. It’s a totally different ballgame there. The NHL did what the NHL did and us, as an organization, support the NHL’s decision and that’s probably the best way to answer that question.

                            We all support the decision. It’s unfortunate what happened, but again, it’s in the legal system now. I can’t really talk about that part of things.

                            TBH I don't see much "Standing by" Voynov there. A lot of comments about how they are waiting for the legal system to play it's part. Which is I think exactly what /u/NWLierly and I are going for here.

                            [–]GRiZZY19TOR - NHL[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (11子コメント)

                            FWIW, different circumstances. Voynov was arrested and charged, Kane's situation is purely allegations at this point.

                            I've been trying to find something on this, maybe you can find it, but I wonder what did Kings players said (if any commented) when Doughty had rape allegations against him in 2012? That would be a more accurate comparison to make.

                            [–]lordjedediahLAK - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            It also seems like management made sure none of them made a show of support either way.

                            [–]CocaineSympathySJS - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Management should never have let him skate. That was awful.

                            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                              [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Oh I should have included domestic abuse. I'll add that to the list.

                              I agree. "No comment" is going to need to be used a lot more often. I understand teammates wanting to be loyal and what not. But comments like this just don't seem right.

                              [–]SeadizMTL - NHL 10ポイント11ポイント  (31子コメント)

                              But isn't accused being the key word here? I mean as a long time teammate/friend, wouldn't you naturally give the guy the benefit of the doubt in this situation? In that case I think this is an appropriate response. This is all assuming of course, that he doesn't know much more than we do.

                              [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 23ポイント24ポイント  (13子コメント)

                              Most people accused of rape or sexual assault have people that will say they are great people, good friends, etc. That doesn't mean they are innocent.

                              [–]SeadizMTL - NHL 18ポイント19ポイント  (10子コメント)

                              I never said nor implied he was innocent either, lol.

                              [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

                              By giving someone the benefit of the doubt, you are assuming their innocence or at the very least a misunderstanding.

                              [–]SeadizMTL - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              I didn't say I'M giving him the benefit of the doubt. However if one of my closest friends was in Patrick Kane's position, I would give HIM the benefit of the doubt. Know what I mean?

                              [–]hockeycylNYR - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (7子コメント)

                              Or, by giving someone the benefit of the doubt, you are treating them as innocent until proven guilty. I'm giving Kane the benefit of the doubt(as in I'm waiting to see what the investigation shows). I'm ALSO giving the accuser the benefit of the doubt, and assuming she wouldn't lie about something like this.

                              [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                              By presuming the innocence of Kane, how do you also assume the accuser didn't lie? They seem to be two opposing viewpoints.

                              Either the accuser was truthful and Kane is a rapist. Or the accuser is lying and Kane is innocent.*

                              *I am not speaking legally.

                              [–]Downvote_ComforterSTL - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

                              And evidence can prove 1 of the presumptions wrong. Absolutely no need to pick a side right now.

                              [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                              It seems like not picking a side should look be more like "I have no idea what happened." Not claiming innocent until proven guilty ad nauseam.

                              EDIT: Or in this case giving one side the benefit of the doubt.

                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                [–]DrHampantsCHI - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                See: Steubenville, Ohio.

                                コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                  [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

                                  If there is an investigation ongoing and you don't know what's going on then why say anything at all? That's my point and that's why I said "I hope he knows something."

                                  Because if he doesn't know any more than we do then that's putting a lot of blind trust in your teammate/friend that in all accounts could be misplaced. The last thing I want to see is for Kane to end up being guilty and for people to come back tot this later and say, "Oh Toews supported him early on!"

                                  [–]HollowWienerWPG - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                  Toews said you got to stand by your teammates. If Kane has done something they can't stand by, he won't be a teammate much longer.

                                  [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                  Looking at the Voynov example if he comes back to play or even Ribeiro if his teammates believe that he is guilty (obviously not legally), how do you stand by and/or support your teammate even if he beat his wife or molested the nanny?

                                  [–]SeadizMTL - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                  Because he was asked about it, and he is a captain who still tries to lead his team? It's not about blind trust either, it's about innocent until proven guilty. if he had said this knowing he was guilty it'd be a different story.

                                  [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  How could he know if he was guilty or innocent?

                                  [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                  Unless he is privy to the investigation and knows the behind the scenes what is happening he has NO IDEA if Kane is innocent or not.

                                  [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                  I do get what you're saying, I promise - I am listening. Rape victims are treated horribly, and it's a ridiculously hard crime to convict. And false reports rarely happen - I think the statistic is 8%. But what I'm trying to say is the guy hasn't even been charged yet, you know?

                                  This whole thing is so difficult. Right now I'm not leaning either way - I'm just waiting to see how this plays out. Either way this ends, either someone was hurt or someone's reputation is forever tarnished by serious accusations. I'm not blindly supporting Kane nor am I blindly supporting the other side.

                                  [–]golf4miamiCHI - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                  I'm not blindly supporting the other side either, but I would much rather not throw the accuser under the bus by assuming Kane is innocent or playing the "Innocent until proven guilty" card. Once you do either of these things you're automatically assuming that the woman who came forward is a liar.

                                  [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  Hang on, people saying innocent before proven guilty aren't automatically assuming the woman is lying - just that you can't be sure what happened until more facts come out or until he's at least charged. Literally all that has been officially confirmed at this point is that an incident happened at his residence.

                                  [–]dietdrpeppercherryPIT - NHL 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  If he's innocent, how is she telling the truth? Presuming his innocence means that she wasn't raped*. If you can't be sure then say that.

                                  *Unless you ascribe to unlikely scenarios

                                  コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                      コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                                        [–]ObiWanJenobi1 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Kane has to have told Toews he's innocent at this point because he's not going to be like "yo Johnny I got caught raping this chick, sucks man". Toews being the captain of the team has too stick by his guy until he's proven guilty. What did people expect Toews too say, "Ya Pattys kind of a dick wouldnt be surprised if he did rape her"

                                        [–]concussed_cowboyCOL - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Non-story. That's the right answer. What's he suppose to say?

                                        [–]redbluegreenyellowCHI - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        This is clearly canned - blah blah, stick together as a team, don't let it affect our hockey, etc. I think what a lot of people are missing is the first part of the comment - "for the time being" as in, until he's charged/convicted. I suuuper don't think he's condoning rape here.

                                        [–]eliar91VAN - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        There is nothing wrong with assuming he's innocent. There hasn't been a conviction, yet. If and once there is, then that's the time to ask their opinion.

                                        People are entitled to defend those they believe in. After all, it's innocent until proven guilty.

                                        [–]mug3nCGY - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        what else is toews gonna say?

                                        these types of interviews are meaningless.

                                        [–]SportsOnlySJS - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Just a captain standing up for a teammate

                                        [–]Fig_Newton_PHI - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Kane is Toews's close friend and a guy who he trusts on the ice for 70+ games year in and year out. Regardless of the accusations, Toews should have Kane's back unless further evidence comes to light

                                        [–]coachjimmyCHI - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        They pay McDonough and Blunk millions for this shit, ask them. Toews is a hockey player and nearly every possible answer is lose/lose.

                                        [–]Pikachu1989COL - NHL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        I think it's an alright answer for him to respond. Until further details come out from the Kane Situation, Toews should support his fellow teammate and friend. Now if things further come out to light and allegations are true, then I have no doubt that Toews will not Support Kane.

                                        [–]zingbatsPIT - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                        All the comments saying "innocent until proven guilty" seem to be putting a lot of faith in the justice system to get to the truth of the matter. Rape cases are notoriously difficult to prosecute, even when the defendant isn't rich, famous and well-beloved in the area. I will be absolutely shocked if a criminal trial results in a verdict of "guilty" in this case---not because I think he's necessarily innocent, but because if he isn't, it's so impossibly hard to prove guilt to the standards required to send someone to jail.

                                        TL; DR: "innocent until proven guilty" is kind of a cop out when you realize that he's likely to be found not guilty regardless (if it even goes to trial).

                                        [–]Google_Your_Question 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                        Well said. But I think at least in my own case it's not so much about the faith in the justice system as it is a lack of a better system of proof. Short of actually being there one's self or devising a foolproof lie detector I don't know a better way to determine whether someone is guilty of rape.

                                        [–]kelusCHI - NHL 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        Yes, it's impossibly difficult to find the truth in a rape case, when the only two people who know the truth are the accuser and the accused.

                                        Rape cases are insanely complex, with so many possible variables. So you can't sit here and say, "he's probably getting away no matter what, therefore he raped her". That's bullshit. The only way to not look like an ignorant asshole in this situation is to just not have an opinion. Because without facts and evidence, any opinion is unfounded.

                                        TL;DR: It's not a cop out. Having any sort of opinion is a bad idea with zero information/evidence.

                                        [–]zingbatsPIT - NHL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        So you can't sit here and say, "he's probably getting away no matter what, therefore he raped her"

                                        That's not what I'm saying, though. I'm only saying that, if we decide to regard him as innocent unless/until he is found guilty by a jury, then it should be acknowledged that this is effectively declaring belief in his innocence---it is not actually a neutral statement or "who knows??" declaration.

                                        Maybe the issue is that I draw a distinction between "innocent until proven guilty" vs. "we don’t know enough to be certain either way," while some people use them to mean the same thing. But I think that it is important to differentiate between operating under the notion that we don’t know the truth, and operating under the actual assumption of innocence. Obviously in the case of sentencing someone to jail, it is vitally important to operate under the innocent-until-proven-guilty rule. But in other situations, it’s OK to step back and say, “We should consider that he may be guilty and what we should do about it.”

                                        In some sense, of course, the distinction doesn't really matter, since no one is going to ask us to weigh in on how to handle this situation. But in these kinds of discussions (what Toews should have said, or whether Kane will be suspended, etc.), the people pushing for “innocent until proven guilty” are basically advocating for a lack of consequences regardless of what actually happened, even if they don’t immediately realize it.

                                        [–]Zoidberg22TOR - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        Not good look by him. I would've just said no comment.

                                        [–]SildasTOR - NHL 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        You support Toronto. You know full well what journalists can do with saying nothing.

                                        [–]LeoFerreMTL - NHL 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwMukKqx-Os

                                        [–]jsiemian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        I've always loved Kaner, he's been one of my favorite players since entering the league. If he did it he deserves the maximum punishment without a doubt but I'm not changing my judgement on him until the facts are spoken. Innocent until proven guilty.

                                        コメントをもっと表示する (43 返事)