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[–]My_Life_Uncensored 80ポイント81ポイント  (326子コメント)

I'm a man and I was raped.

The story: My GF was mad at me because I wanted a "night to myself" (We were already having relationship issues and I needed some space). She barged into my dorm, super drunk, and guilted me into having sex with her. I was not in the mood, and was feeling really low, but she eventually guilted me into sex. Yes, I got an erection, and I even came, but I felt so violated and from then on the dynamic of our relationship changed, and it took 6+ years after we broke up for me to recover.

My response to this: I can be emotional about rape, and still am. It is scary for me to talk about it, which is why I use an alt account. But that doesn't mean we can't have logical discussion, for Christ's sake! Let's think critically about this shit and look at different points of view and try to work on this issue from BOTH sides, male and female.

Also, "logic" doesn't mean "sans emotion." It means learn what logical fallacies are and don't use them.

EDIT: As this is getting a lot of attention, partly due to my lack of vital information in the above, let me expand on this:

  1. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship that culminated in this incident. She used a lot of manipulation on me to keep me in the relationship, and used that same manipulation to manipulate me into sex. For example, she had different playlists in iTunes she would play, one for when I was being a "good BF" full of love songs, and another that was full of breakup songs, for when I was being a "shitty BF." She would also give me ultimatums a lot, and would get guilt trip me every time I had to leave because I was running late for rehearsals or classes. She'd make fun of my balding head and tell me it's okay, because she will still love me even with a bald head, even though other girls won't. Whenever I tried to talk to her about this stuff, she'd just laugh it off and say I couldn't take a joke.

  2. The night in question, she coerced me through manipulation: She made me feel like I owed her sex, that sex was my way of proving my affection for her, continued to pressure me despite my repeated "no's" This is by definition "coercive sex," which is rape by definition.

  3. The legal, FBI defintion of rape doesn't even include vagina-on-penis rape: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." To me, this means our definitions need to be updated.

  4. In fact, RAINN.org states that rape has very unclear and conflicting definitions: "The exact definition of “rape,” “sexual assault,” “sexual abuse” and similar terms differs by state. The wording can get confusing, since states often use different words to mean the same thing or use the same words to describe different things."

  5. Yes, it is partly my own doing for staying in the relationship, and for not saying "No, GTFOff me, I don't want sex." But emotionally abusive relationships are a power play between two individuals. I was the weaker of the two of us, and she used that weakness to fulfill her needs at my expense.

  6. What I gave was disingenuous consent. I said, "Ok, fine." but I didn't really mean it, and my last hour's worth of actions support that. So does disingenuous consent count as real consent? Some of you think it does, but I do not. I didn't give her genuine consent, and I feel she had every right to realize that. She had every reason to believe that my previous hour of pushing back her advances and clearly stating I wasn't interested in sex indicated that she proceeded in willful ignorance of my stance.

  7. Yes, I call it "rape" or "sexual assault" and will continue to do so until there is a better word to describe what I've experienced. I felt as violated and broken as many other "legit" rape victims I've met. And really, there's no better word. Except maybe "Sexual coercion," but something tells me that those of you who disagree with "rape" will also disagree with "sexual coercion." If you have a better word for it than either "rape," "sexual assault," or "sexual coersion," let me know.

[–]shouldnbeonredditOvech-kin pronouns: slapshot/slapshots/slapshotself 28ポイント29ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, "logic" doesn't mean "sans emotion." It means learn what logical fallacies are and don't use them.

Yep. Being logical doesn't mean you can't cry or get upset. It just means that there's a clear connection from your premise to your conclusion rooted in facts.

I can speak logically about the series of events that led to me being suicidal for a time, but that doesn't mean that thinking about the time I thought about taking my own life doesn't make me emotional.

[–]Shayshunk 136ポイント137ポイント  (257子コメント)

Just a question, doesn't this still come into sex that you regret? No offense at all and absolute respect to you and your traumatic experience. Just, if you still had a choice was it rape? Or she did completely and utterly leave you in a position where you had to do it?

[–]slayerx1779 69ポイント70ポイント  (90子コメント)

I think there's a difference between sex I wanted and regretted later, and sex I never wanted and regretted allowing the whole time.

[–]GMNightmare 20ポイント21ポイント  (77子コメント)

The actual important difference lies in you allowing it vs it being physically forced upon you.

EDIT: When you don't recognize this, like My_Life_Uncensored did at the end of our... discussion... is that you start to think rape victims can be partly to blame for being raped. Which is disgusting, in my mind, but I guess that's emotional.

[–]slayerx1779 6ポイント7ポイント  (16子コメント)

Just because he allows it, does mean he enjoys it.

When I'm at work (as a cashier), I'm told to not resist in the event of a robbery. Am I now liable because I permitted it to happen? Even partially?

[–]GMNightmare 10ポイント11ポイント  (15子コメント)

Enjoyment is irrelevant to whether or not something is rape.

Sex doesn't have to be enjoyable to both parties. I doubt it's that much enjoyable for a prostitute for a quick example. In healthy relationships sometimes you just want to satisfy your partner. Things like that.

Did you have a choice in the robbery? No.

Did the parent have a choice in sex here? Yes.

In the event of rape, just because you don't fight back doesn't mean it's not rape.

But that's not what is happening here, the person made a choice they regretted.

Get the difference? Why the hell is this such a hard concept to get? You had a choice in the matter? Then it wasn't rape!

[–]Deepseablues 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Women can claim rape without physical force having been used. Coercion and pressure to comply are considered rape.

[–]GMNightmare 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

Only in tumblr land is something like "pressure" considered something that makes rape. You might as well include asking if the other person wants to have sex as being pressured.

The attempt to gray what rape is, is incredibly harmful to every-bodies cause. "Well I said yes, and I enjoyed it, but deep down I really didn't want it and I regretted it afterwards... so rape, right?"

No. No, these things are not rape. If you have a choice in the matter, then it's not rape. It makes people WHO ARE raped, those who were forced to have sex against their will, harder to come forward. It dilutes the term.

Consenting to sex and claiming it was rape because you were pressured makes a mockery of actual rape victims.

[–]Deepseablues 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not saying I agree, I should have clarified. What I'm saying is, if women have the legal ability to claim this as rape, so should men. Rape should be classified as any unwanted sexual contact given with express nonconsent, or given when the victim has the inability to consent, such as being passed out. But until that changes, a man should be able to call something rape under the same circumstances a woman does.

[–]GMNightmare 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're fine, you commented to me.

I agree with equal treatment, but I don't agree on the notion that men get to do the wrong thing too just because women are getting away with it. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

But I don't think it matters that much the order of which we do it I guess. Either way, the end goal should be: 1) Regret of consent does not equal rape, and 2) Equal treatment. So either way I suppose.

[–]Deepseablues 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, I'm just getting used to this app and I think I may have messaged you directly instead of adding a comment. Apologies!

コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

    [–]WCsharpeh 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Do you understand why being drunk means you can't consent?

    [–]GMNightmare 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

    If you want to go down that path, than My_Life_Uncensored was actually the one who raped his girlfriend. Because he gave consent and was sober, she was not.

    He also thinks that rape victims can be partly to blame in rape. Because that's what this line of thought leads to, when you think giving consent doesn't mean you... give consent.

    [–]WCsharpeh 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

    She isn't claiming she was raped though, legally she cannot give consent so she could've said she was and been right. The point is coercion isn't the same as consent.

    [–]RussellLawlietItchy trigger finger 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It is. If you're at a car dealership and you agree to get a premium package that the dealer keeps telling you you should really, really get, it doesn't mean you get to not pay for it because he coerced you into buying it.

    [–]GMNightmare 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Yes, I've forgotten how some people like to claim women have no will the moment alcohol touches their lips. She was raped by this guy, really, that's right, the victim was the real rapist.

    I say victim, because he was a victim. Of abuse. Not of rape of course, since he consented to sex of his own free volition.

    But hey! Let's continue confusing what rape means and think that anytime alcohol is involved it's rape. A complete mockery to people who were violently force into sex, and giving such victims a harder time to come forward. Sounds like a real plus.

    [–]My_Life_Uncensored -3ポイント-2ポイント  (35子コメント)

    If that's true, then men can only be raped by women stronger than them, pinning them down, or by men, also stronger than them, and also pinning them down.

    I think it's more complicated than that.

    [–]GMNightmare 8ポイント9ポイント  (33子コメント)

    No, that's not the case at all. Just because you might be stronger than a woman doesn't mean you're necessarily going to use that force. You can also be pinned down by somebody weaker than you. And there can be weapons/drugs involved.

    Rape isn't more complicated than that. Sex in general is more complicated than that, relationships are complicated, but not rape.

    I understand that your ordeal was traumatic. But you make light of real rape victims. People who were FORCED into having sex AGAINST THEIR WILL.

    You willingly had sex that you didn't want. There is a huge difference.

    [–]My_Life_Uncensored -1ポイント0ポイント  (32子コメント)

    I did say "Ok, fine," and legally gave consent, but I didn't "willingly" have sex. It was against my will.

    I gave disingenuous consent. Is that still consent? This is an ethical question, not a legal one. Is what she did, pressuring me into sex for 1 hour, saying whatever she could think of to manipulate me into saying yes, ethical?

    [–]GMNightmare 8ポイント9ポイント  (31子コメント)

    Yes, you did. You willingly had sex. It was not against your will. You had a choice in the matter, and you went in for it. You regretted that choice, but that is not the same thing as you not having said choice. I mean, disingenuous consent is consent by definition (you're adding an adjective to describe the type of consent, but that's still consent).

    The deal is, there are plenty of people who never had this choice. They were raped. You thinking you're one of them because you regretted your decision spits in their faces and makes light of the issue of rape.

    Is what she did okay or ethical? No.

    Was it rape? NO.

    So stop trying to claim it was rape.

    [–]TheFlagonWagonSo Disabled I'm in the Oppression Paralympics 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    A lot of the time, men get raped while they're too drunk to consent. I hear a lot of stories about men who pass out and wake up with a woman riding them. Alternatively, you could be threatened or blackmailed. "You better fuck me if you want any chance of keeping this job," et cetera.

    Both of those are are being forced into sex. Reluctantly banging someone isn't being raped. Guilt tripping someone into sex is definitely wrong and shady as fuck, but it isn't rape.

    [–]cjackc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You could say no that whole time and quit.

    [–]Flying_Burrito_Bro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    sex I never wanted and regretted allowing the whole time.

    I think that's a crucial difference, but one that also places the onus on the victim to "deny" the attacker/coercive "agent's" unwanted advances.

    I understand that it's misguided to conceive of victims as completely powerless-- they must communicate when possible their wants/desires or total lack thereof, yet fear has a remarkable way of stripping men and women of that ability.

    I think that "allowed" is the wrong word here. What you've described is the definition of rape in many jurisdictions that include "strong coercion," including threats of humiliation or serious emotional harm, within the statutory framework.

    [–]ShadowAssassinQueef -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Yea but.. Just say no. If I don't want to have sex with someone I won't

    [–]bluerose1197 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It isn't always that easy, for either sex. My ex husband did something similar to me though he wasn't drunk at the time. I remember crying through the whole thing and him just not caring.

    [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sorry to hear that. Glad to hear he is your "ex!" I think rape is way more complicated than a simple "yes" or "no."

    I read a sex-ed teacher explain to her students that sex can be rape even if the other partner says "yes." They asked how, and she said that the "yes" should be along the lines of an unequivocal "YES!"

    I wish you the best.

    [–]Bpsf83 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    That response is a total waste of space.

    [–]ShadowAssassinQueef 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Why

    [–]Bpsf83 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Because it's incredibly naive of you to think that you will always be in complete control of your own body. Even if you do believe that, responses like this only add to the bullshit belief that "Men cant be raped!".

    [–]slayerx1779 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Other's willpower may not be as strong as yours. Does that make it any less of a crime?

    [–]porkmaster 102ポイント103ポイント  (40子コメント)

    Sounds like it. Being guilted into sex is one of the bogus things that helped them come up with the "one in five" statistic.

    [–]FireWankWithMe 33ポイント34ポイント  (32子コメント)

    Coerced consent isn't proper consent, that's the whole reason people insist on 'no means no' and why the more misguided ones push for affirmative consent laws. When shit like this is called 'bogus' I begin to understand where the "teach men not to rape" crowd are coming from.

    [–]porkmaster 19ポイント20ポイント  (19子コメント)

    "No means no" is sufficient as you say. Guilted into it is a "no... no... ok,fine,whatever" situation. Just say no.

    [–]Shirrapikachu 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

    It isn't that black and white. Clearly you've never been pressured into anything and said yes just to get them off your back or because you felt you had to. I also was a victim or coerced sex and it fucked me up for a long time. It's easy to say that in that situation you should have just said no or had more conviction, but when actually faced with such a situation it's rarely how things pan out.

    [–]porkmaster 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I'm sure everyone has been pestered, bugged, or begged into doing things they would have preferred not to. That's life. Consent that is coerced without threats of violence is still not rape, it's just not nice and people should get that person out of their lives.

    [–]Cyberguy64Earthworm Kin. Pronouns: COW/COWS/COWSELF -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Eh... I dunno. I can see sex via emotional abuse being rape. "Have sex with me or else I'll leave you, and you're emotionally dependent on me."

    That being said, the line gets really blurry the closer you get to that. And its safer and easier in the long run to just not let yourself become totally dependent on someone before you know them inside and out. If they're showing true colors that they're willing to hurt you in any way to get what they want, say "no!" and get outta there before it goes to far.

    [–]Wawoowoo 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    So you're saying that if I wanted to get a divorce due to a lack of sex, not only should I not be allowed to divorce, but I should be imprisoned for being a rapist?

    [–]Shirrapikachu 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    No, but if you threaten divorce to get sex out of your partner you should. There's a big difference between that and a reasonable conversation about the lack of sex and your thoughts on it and that if you don't find a solution together divorce will be the end result. Using an ultimatum as a manipulation tactic to get sex is seriously fucked up.

    [–]regeya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And to think this thread started over feminists objecting to logic.

    Wow. ad absurdum much?

    [–]altDOTnerd_obsessive 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    so in your estimation you have been raped?

    [–]Shirrapikachu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes, but I also know it doesn't hold up to the laws definition of rape and I wouldn't attempt to bring this to court. All I know is I have BPD likely as a result of the trauma and exhibit all of the symptoms of somebody who suffered from sexual abuse, and I never even knew it or drew the connection until I went to therapy now.

    [–]proweruser 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It is that black and white (or should be) when it comes to the legal definition. If you said yes and you were of sound mind, that is consent, no matter how much the other party pestered you.

    Not saying you don't have the right to feel bad about it afterwards or that it can't fuck you up, but we can't build legal definitions on feelings.

    [–]iankstarr 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    But he still started with that first "no." There shouldn't have been conversation about it after that.

    [–]seanjohn12117 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

    "Let's have sex"

    "Nah I'm not in the mood"

    "Please"

    "Ok"

    You think that's rape?

    [–]Bluest_One 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

    If you genuinely think that negotiations should be banned in any form of human interaction, let alone a sexual relationship, then, I'm going to suggest you are being both unreasonable and unrealistic.

    [–]Shirrapikachu 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

    There's a stark line between "negotiation" and "manipulation." One is a healthy way to meet in the middle, the other is an abuse tactic.

    [–]Bluest_One 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Is there a "stark" line, though? Most things are a spectrum, a bell-curve; they're not black and white.

    It would probably hinge on your definition of "manipulate". You can certainly manipulate someone without abusing them. Children do this all the time to their parents, for example, to get treats, or stay up late, or whatever.

    [–]Shirrapikachu 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Well, where that line blurs is a very touchy subject that's up to each person definition. Manipulation when used in relationships is more often than not designed to be abusive. I'm not talking about a context with a child and a parent.

    [–]GoToTell 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I find it scary that it feels like some of the people here are arguing against that. Male or female perspective. Christ, people.

    [–]cjackc 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    When does the No reset then? After 10 minutes? 1 Hour? 3 Years? If someone says No to sex with you once you can just never have sex with them again.

    [–]seanjohn12117 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    He wasn't coerced though. At no point was he threatened at all. He's an adult, he's fully capable of saying no.

    [–]FireWankWithMe 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sure, in that case it's unclear what went down. In the cases /u/porkmaster was talking about though coerced and pressured consent isn't 'bogus'. Also coercion does not always require direct threat.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]Sssgthyou're a kidkin, you're a squidkin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Exactly. Regret is different from consent never given.

      [–]RussellLawlietItchy trigger finger 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      So if the dealer at a garage convinces me to get a premium package, it's illegal since he coerced me and I said no in the first place but he didn't listen but I gave in anyway?

      [–]altDOTnerd_obsessive 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      good point. if you're buying a car and the dealer convinces you that a two seat corvette is a better car for your new family and you buy it, you havent been raped, youre just not a good decision maker. i really dont get how its different for sex. yes sex is an emotional experience but if that stops you from making good decisions that your own problem. guess thats my privilege kicking in

      [–]ok_ill_shut_up 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Does guilting someone count as coercion?

      [–]ba1018 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      It's not that it's bogus, I just wouldn't say it's a crime. Would you? Do you think his girlfriend should go to prison?

      Is it morally shitty? Yes. Criminal? No. That's why I can't call it rape. Unless you want to start having gradations of criminal rape under which we can classify and categorize all different sexual contexts, then I don't think we should call it rape.

      [–]Valmond 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

      What is the "one in five" thing?

      [–]ShitFPHSays 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

      man describes being guilted into sex to show SJWs are wrong about thinking men can't be raped

      some jackass says being guilted into sex is bogus because that's an SJW definition of rape

      mfw

      [–]seanjohn12117 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I mean he's an adult, at some point it's on him to actually say no and not expect his girlfriend to read his mind.

      [–]altDOTnerd_obsessive 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      you have to understand that there are a couple of camps here, operating in a venn diagram. those who believe that if a law works one way for women, it should work the same for men, and those who believe a law shouldnt exist in the first place. statutory rape is a good example of this. some people believe that if a 19 year old male has sex with a 17 year old female and gets 5 years in prison, a 19 year old woman should get the same punishment, and is outraged when they never, ever do. other people believe that it's irrelevant whether its a man or a woman, it shouldnt be illegal for either, and use the exorbitant male punishments as an example for how ridiculous it is. most people, I hope, believe both

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      THANK YOU.

      [–]lloorrenTrans-ethnic Non-ableist Bipedalphile 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Emotional abuse is very real.

      [–]FuckBrendan 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I was legitimately raped by a woman. One night I went to a party after breaking my leg a week before... I was on crutches and taking Vicodin. I didn't realize how terribly pain killers mix with alcohol (I was 16) and I got sick pretty early in the party and had the owner of the house lay me down in her parents bed. Later that night I woke up to her sucking my dick and I told her to stop because my leg had me in a lot of pain. She eventually got on top of me, the pain nearly had me in tears and she started having sex with me. I was telling her to stop the whole time but she just kept saying it was okay and I needed to relax. She was really drunk so she wasn't being as gentle as she thought she was. And that's how I lost my virginity! Ha.

      [–]ConstantJelly 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Holy shit dude, that's actually pretty terrible. Did you ever press charges against her?

      [–]FuckBrendan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Nah. I told some people, they just kept saying 'at least you got laid' and I put it behind me and got over it. It was bad but I don't hold it to a standard that would change how I view women or relationships. Just wrote it off as a crazy girl who didn't realize what she was doing. It sucked my leg hurting like it did, but past that I didn't think about it much.

      [–]OceanRacoon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Now there's a real male rape, not that bullshit other one. Everyone talk to this guy and make him feel better instead

      [–]sigurbjorn1 48ポイント49ポイント  (53子コメント)

      I just dont think so, even though he was guilted, it seems like he gave consent. He didnt say she forced herself on him or blackmailed him, didnt take away his ability to consent. He just eventually caved. What was she going to do, beat him up? was she going to break up with him for saying no? If so, then the choice was end relationship or, by his opinion of what it was, get raped. why was he afraid to keep saying no? These things, far as the info we have, is an unknown and i can only speculate. But, based on what we know from his post, he didnt mention anything that would make me feel like it was rape. more that he was not in the mood and begrudgingly had sex because he didnt like the alternatives.

      Edit: and now he is saying "not legal rape." he isnt a child or mentally handicapped who are considered to not have the faculties to resist this "guilting" in an imbalanced power paradigm, we can assume from his posts that he is above the age of consent, he is considered to have the faculties needed to take responsibility for his decisions. he said she said that she would think him a bad boyfriend if he didnt have sex with her, he weighed the consequences and decided on sex. I just dont think that even begins to qualify, regardless of the proposed gender reversals. Is it a shitty thing for your girlfriend to say? Absolutely. Is it shitty for her to guilt him into banging his girlfriend? Yeah, thats really not cool, guilting is an uncool thing to do in most circumstances between you and your lady. But, i dont think that makes it rape, "emotional" or otherwise(i mean, how can rape just be emotional or physical, is it not intrinsically an emotional and physical activity? if it is just emotional, how can it even be called rape?) He is stuggling to find ways to keep calling it rape, oh its not legal rape, it is emotional rape!
      I'm starting to find it ironic that we are on /r/tumblrinaction.

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 17ポイント18ポイント  (45子コメント)

      Having experienced what I experienced, I don't think rape is as simple as people think. It's a lot more complex than just "Did s/he say yes or no?"

      She basically told me that if we ended the night and I didn't have sex with her, I would be some type of terrible boyfriend. "Not being good enough" is my greatest fear, and she used that to psychologically pressure me into sex I didn't feel comfortable with.

      In a healthy relationship, my SO would not have pressured me for over an hour to do something I clearly didn't want to do, and would have respected my initial "I'm not in the mood tonight." And certainly would not have made me feel bad for not wanting sex.

      [–]T-Husky 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I can follow your reasoning; you may technically have given consent, but it was under duress... plenty of women have used the exact same reasoning to claim they have been raped, and plenty of men have been accused of victim blaming for suggesting that it was fully within their power to avoid having sex if their consent truly was withheld.

      So does this mean you were raped? sort of. Sexual assault, like other forms of assault comes in varying degrees of seriousness, and it isnt really fair that we refer to every form of sexual assault as Rape with a capital R, because it always brings to mind the most traumatic and violent variety of sexual assault, rather than those where the victim's capacity to give consent has been compromised by a technicality which may not have been known to the accused.

      Your girlfriend probably didnt realise that from your perspective she was committing a sexual assault; from her perspective she was merely being emotionally abusive, which isnt actually a crime, and something a lot of women seem to believe they are entitled to engage in to maintain power in relationships.

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I know, the definition of "rape" is confusing and definitely brings to mind the most traumatic and violent varieties of sexual assault.

      Sometimes I opt for the term "sexually abused," or "date rape." But often these are still considered under the umbrella of "rape" anyway.

      Perhaps the term "rape" was defined in relation to how women are sexually abused, and perhaps now that we are learning and talking more about male sexual abuse, we might consider broadening our definition. Women experience this type of sexual assault as well. Consent, but not genuine consent.

      Is disingenuous consent still consent? That's the crux of the problem here, I think.

      [–]T-Husky 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Personally I don't think the definition of rape needs to be broadened, if anything I believe the opposite; that lesser forms of sexual assault need to be treated as crimes of a wholly separate class from rape where intent of the accused is a factor, and that the standard for prosecution should be to prove negligence... far too many people (mostly men) get prosecuted as sex offenders when their only crime was ignorance; sometimes willful, but often genuine.

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I think there should be a clearer distinction between a legal definition (what you're describing), and a social definition (what I'm describing). Often, the legal definition of a word, like "insanity" for instance, is different than the social definition, and for good reason.

      If we had a better understanding of when and how each definition is used in either context, then there would be a lot less confusion.

      [–]flerpssuey park raped me, sulkowicz posted the tape online 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

      I had similar done to me by a boyfriend over the course of a relationship. It was probably like that for around a year before I got rid. It wasn't so much persuasion or coercion as a threat of what would happen if I didn't just give in and do what he wanted - he had proven that he could make my life a living hell for at least a good couple of hours and act so horrendously it was easier to just let him fuck me. I hated every minute of it towards the end of a relationship and I dreaded every advance because I knew that was me for the next hour.

      I was never sure if I should say I was raped because of, well, what people are saying here but I certainly feel raped. It's been a couple of years since then but I only just met someone last week who I could finally be intimate with and not feel like I couldn't say no.

      [–]SolemnGuardian 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

      My question to the people saying Op's situation was not rape: at what point does psychological torment in a relationship become equal to physically forcing yourself on someone?

      To clarify, not every person is in a position psychologically or emotionally that they can up-and-leave a relationship that is abusive, be it physically abusive or another form of abuse. That being said, to these people psychological games played by a partner in order to coerce them into doing what they want in any other context apart from rape is considered outright abuse. If that is the case, using these games (considered abuse in every other context) should be considered equal to, or at least comparable to, physically forcing yourself on someone.

      Consider this scenario: a woman is being asked for sex by their partner and declines. Her partner then begins to force herself upon the woman so she physically holds them off for as long as she can, reinforcing her refusal to comply. Despite this, her partner continues to force himself on her while threatening her if she refuses until she has no choice but to allow it or risk further harm to herself.

      Now, consider this scenario: a man is being asked for sex by their partner and declines. His partner begins to remind him of all of his failures, how he wasn't good enough and how he was never going to find someone better. The man still maintains his refusal to comply with sex. Despite this, his partner continues to berate him and insult him until his only option to end the abuse (at least in his mind in that moment) is to agree to having sex.

      These scenarios aren't too different, yet people act as though they are. Abuse is abuse and if abuse is used in order to gain sex an individual has already refused, then that should be considered rape, in my opinion.

      [–]flerpssuey park raped me, sulkowicz posted the tape online 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Thank you, you articulate this whole thing a lot better than I can. What I experienced was the second thing you describe and was part of a more ongoing pattern of emotional abuse, which is why it took so damn long to get rid of the cunt. He only got violent once it was apparent I was cutting him out of my life for good, but I think I'd have an easier time explaining it to people if he had been beating me.

      [–]SolemnGuardian 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Unfortunately my articulation comes from experience. I have been raped by an older relative who physically forced me to do so, but also raped by female relatives when I was much younger (them being 13 or so to my 8) because I was under their care and did not want to upset them or get in trouble for declining, though they made no actual threats to me. It doesn't matter that I didn't understand until later, that doesn't change what happened at the time.

      It just makes me sad that the only way men, like me, or women in situations where physical threats might not have led to their agreeing to have sex are dismissed or corrected because of someone else's outsider perspective. Out of context and understanding that only the victim can truly have, it is hard to gauge the severity of the situation as an outsider.

      I am glad to hear that you got out of that relationship, you most certainly deserved better and I'm glad you recognized that. :)

      [–]flerpssuey park raped me, sulkowicz posted the tape online 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'm sorry to hear that, at least for me it was at a time where I was starting to get sick and tired of letting people abuse me and I suppose it kind of helped in a twisted way - I had to reassess a lot of my thoughts and prejudices and feel like at least I learned a few things and now I can approach relationships with a much better idea of what's not healthy. I mentioned in another comment that I very recently met someone I can actually be intimate with and feel I can truly say 'no' to, so job well done I say. I hope you've found some sort of healing process out of it too.

      And honestly, who gives a fuck if random strangers don't think I was raped, or whatever. I have nothing to prove and no agenda to push really, it's just affirming to know I'm not alone you know?

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      I'm happy you found someone who you can be yourself around.

      Thank you for sharing with me. It's been a tough few hours for me because the comments are insistent, "YOU WEREN'T RAPED STFU." But what other word is there for what we experienced? We were manipulated into sex. I think there are different ways to rape people, but that doesn't mean what happened to us is invalid somehow.

      I'm sorry this happened to you, but thank you for sharing with me. I wish you the best.

      [–]flerpssuey park raped me, sulkowicz posted the tape online 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Yeah, it's why I've never been sure about using the word rape for it... rape conjures images of violent attacks, outbursts of non-consensual lust, some sort of escalation... mine was just a request, a pout, perhaps a stern look and I knew what was going on. In a way it makes me feel like I'd rather have been taken forcefully because at least then I wouldn't have to deal with the shame of allowing it and I wouldn't have reinforced that idea that 'no' is not a concept I'm allowed to take part in.

      Is no problem, the internet is where I overshare. I hope you're doing good too, I tried to convince myself all this time not all people are that way but it can be difficult until you meet some solid proof.

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I met some "solid proof," and it sounds like you did, too! :D

      [–]flerpssuey park raped me, sulkowicz posted the tape online 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Here's to our future as functional human beings!

      [–]Kensin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      But what other word is there for what we experienced?

      I've been thinking about this, and I think if I had to choose something, I'd go with this. You were "used". You and flerps both. It's not the same as rape because ultimately you both allowed yourselves to be used, which isn't to say it wasn't terrible and hasn't had a negative effect on both of you, but it wasn't rape because you had a choice. Several choices. Not all of them great or optimal, but they were there. I think that whatever definitions of rape exist the one constant needs to be the clear lack of choice. This is of course just my opinion and not intended to diminish what you went through. You were certainly abused by an asshole and those actions were still every bit as wrong no matter what category we decide they fall under.

      [–]sigurbjorn1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Dude, from what you told me, you weighed the consequences, that she would think you a bad boyfriend, and thought sex was a better option. Thats the bottom line, you arent a child or mentally handicapped, you are considered able to take responsibility for your decision. A child or mentally handicapped person doesnt have the faculties to resist this type of coercion(and in your case, i use this term loosely) in an imbalanced power paradigm, but you are.considered to have these faculties(if you are over the age of consent, and i think that you are)

      [–]ekgsandemergencies 0ポイント1ポイント  (28子コメント)

      You still had complete control over your surroundings and choices regardless.

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 8ポイント9ポイント  (23子コメント)

      And this is how the "men can't be raped" myth goes. Just because I wasn't tied down and fed viagra doesn't mean I wasn't sexually assaulted.

      [–]jiubling 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Actually I think he is saying because you still were fully capable of making the decision to not have sex, but you did, you weren't raped.

      I think most people (here) would say that for a woman as well.

      It just comes down to personal values of self-responsibility. Some people feel like society should protect us from everything, others nothing, and most people somewhere in between. You just feel like society should protect you from more than what he feels like. That's okay.

      [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I think if this were a story about a woman, people would say that your argument is blaming the victim.

      Teaching people not to be raped is definitely important, but not as important as teaching people not to rape in the first place.

      [–]jiubling 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

      We are talking about laws, not morals, and I can't tell if you're confusing them.

      If you are peer pressured heavily into using drugs, we still as a society hold you responsible for buying/possessing/ingesting those drugs.

      That doesn't mean we as a society think that peer pressuring people into using drugs is okay, just that people still have a responsibility to resist peer pressure.

      You just have to decide for yourself what kind of level of self-responsibility you put on resisting peer pressure.

      I think as a society people agree that if you make a credible threat to kill a family member of someone if they don't have sex with you, that is an amount of pressure we don't expect the individual to be able to resist, so we as a society protect them with laws.

      We don't know the details of your situation, but it sounds like you were emotionally manipulated, but not blackmailed.

      Again, society just has to decide if we think we should hold individuals responsible for resisting emotional manipulation, or if once an individual is emotionally manipulated their actions are the responsibility of the manipulator. It has nothing to do with saying emotionally manipulating is bad or okay or anything.

      I really do think it's that simple. Deciding that line is subjective though so despite simplicity of the situation, we disagree!

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]RichardRogerstrans-activist shitlordkin 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

        No, but the part where you chose to have sex with her does mean you weren't sexually assaulted. It doesn't matter how you felt about it if you were still able to make the decision without threats or force involved.

        Imagine if your standard of responsibility were applied to any other situation. "I didn't want to go to the boxing gym and spar with my friend, but said I'd be a pussy if I didn't. Not being tough enough is my greatest fear! So when I sparred with him, he was actually physically assaulting me!"

        [–]My_Life_Uncensored -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Calling someone a pussy is very different from an abusive relationship, which in my case went on for 2 years. It culminated in the incident described, but it was a long time of manipulation before that happened.

        Manipulation is much more serious than name-calling. Maybe it isn't a crime, but it's undoubtedly unethical.

        [–]RichardRogerstrans-activist shitlordkin 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It's definitely not okay, I would never argue for that, but you have no right to pin your choices on her just because she made you feel bad. You were able to consent to sex and you did. Was she a bitch? Sure. Did she rape you? Not by a long shot.

        [–]My_Life_Uncensored 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is the crux of the situation: Is disingenuous consent still consent?

        You think yes. I think it's complicated, and given the situation, that I pushed away her insistent advances for over an hour, and that she continually said things to manipulate me into saying yes, she had every reason to assume it was disingenuous.

        [–]ekgsandemergencies 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

        At any point were you stopped from removing yourself from the situation? Did you not consent and they proceeded anyway? ...orrrr did you say yes and regret consent and the situation later, because those two situations are worlds apart.

        [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

        It was the most disturbing sex I've ever had. The whole time I wanted to cum just to get it over with, so I had an excuse to not be doing it anymore. I've never felt that way during sex before or since.

        [–]dang_hillary -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

        How many girls should be told the same thing.

        [–]ekgsandemergencies 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

        That they have the choice to consent and their decisions be their own? Every. Single one.

        That if they don't like a situation to remove themselves? Every. Single. One.

        That regret and rape are not the same? Every. Single. One.

        [–]dang_hillary -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Correct, but it isn't as simple as that.

        [–]ekgsandemergencies 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Those are pretty simple things

        [–]GingeverePronouns;Ryu/Hya/Kya. Hadu-Kin -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Ok then. If she gave an ultimatum (sex or else consequences) then I'm on your side with this. It was definitely rape.

        [–]worn 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Even if we agree she shouldn't be prosecuted, because she got consent, we can still agree that it emotionally is rape, and that it's terrible.

        [–]My_Life_Uncensored 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Yeah, I don't think this case would hold up in court, but there is a difference between "legal" and "ethical." She might have legally had sex with me, because I gave consent (however disingenuous), but it was definitely an unethical situation.

        [–]worn 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say. Agreed.

        [–]Jiveturkei 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        She seems like a bad significant other. Many people are like this, I admittedly used to be like this with my ex and she was the same way back. We both emotionally damaged each other by using emotions against each other and it became this cyclical spree of who can fuck with the others emotions worse to the point where it was a very hostile break up.

        Healthy relationships are not like this.

        [–]sigurbjorn1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Emotionally is rape. . .? I still would disagree. Just because his feelings got hurt doesnt make it emotional rape, and im not even sure such a thing exists. Did she make him have sex with her? Did she threaten him? Assault him? Or did she just emotionally pester him into it? It sounds like the latter. there doesnt appear to be any reason that he couldnt have said no. Would she have used these forcing methods? Based on what he says, it doesnt appear so. And he can argue about the power paradigm, but if he is the age of consent and up(i dont know for certain) he is not a child, after a certain age(and depending on mental or physical disabilities this can change), he is not considered unable to give consent, the imbalanced power paradigm is relevant to children and people with mental disabilities, they do not have the proper faculties to resist coercion within an imbalanced power paradigm.

        [–]RaunienActual Communist. Pronouns pro/le/tariat 20ポイント21ポイント  (53子コメント)

        No. He was coerced. Therefore he was raped. If he had willingly, and without coercion, engaged in sex, then realised it was a bad idea after the fact, that would be his own stupid fault.

        The fact remains that he was pressured and coerced into sex. The fact that he technically consented is irrelevant, as the consent was given under duress. That he actually had a choice is also irrelevant, as he did not feel he was able to make that choice. Circumstance is everything in a rape case, which is what makes them so difficult.

        [–]rentaroco 26ポイント27ポイント  (33子コメント)

        Coerce: persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats

        She didn't coerce him - she convinced him.

        [–]blazes816 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        She threatened to leave him, leaving him alone. The thought of being alone coerced him into having sex.

        [–]My_Life_Uncensored 7ポイント8ポイント  (13子コメント)

        Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation....

        I felt intimidated. She had manipulative power over me, and I feared that power.

        [–]rentaroco 12ポイント13ポイント  (11子コメント)

        I think understand the situation. I just don't think the logic works.

        From what I gather from your comments, her only power over you was the ability to make you feel bad by changing what she thought of you?

        That's just not enough of a threat in my opinion. She wasn't threatening to hook a wire up to your brain and make you depressed. The only harm you would have come to would have been from yourself, reacting to what she did.

        [–]Cyberguy64Earthworm Kin. Pronouns: COW/COWS/COWSELF 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It really is a grey area, because the only power she had over him was the power he gave her.

        Obviously, that's an abuse of power, and the smart thing to do would be to realize that "If she's doing this to me now, it's never going to stop." and nip it in the bud right there, which it sounds like he was completely capable of doing. The worst that could happen would be he'd be emotionally hurt by her leaving. In the end, giving in just made it worse, and she left anyway so he really did lose more by not sticking to his guns.

        She was definitely in the wrong, but the fact he literally couldn't bring himself to stand by his "no" really makes it hard to see him as completely blameless in this. It's not quite the same thing as "Drugged" or "Physically forced" because he still had his agency. He just gave it up.

        [–]My_Life_Uncensored 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        It was an emotionally abusive relationship, not a physically abusive one, like what you are describing.

        [–]MightyLemur 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

        If that is so you should have mentioned that earlier to reinforce the original narrative. The situation as you described it seems quite like you reluctantly had sex when you weren't feeling like it but then really regretted it, which is certainly not rape. If the relationship had a background of being abusive then that is an entirely different situation given the 'threat' of emotional abuse/manipulation.

        [–]wrwise 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I still feel like this is not rape. But my interpretation of rape is one person having sex with another while one of the parties is incapacitated, under age, below the threshold of mental capability to consent, or forced either physically or in a financial sense. While I believe that threatening your SO over the amount of sex in your relationship and pressuring them to do things they are not comfortable with is morally despicable I don't think it should be considered legal rape.

        [–]FleenersPeener 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Jesus. I can't even imagine the shitstorm if the genders were reversed and people were saying this shit.

        [–]regeya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I think understand the situation. I just don't think the logic works.

        I don't think you know how abusive relationships work.

        [–]RaunienActual Communist. Pronouns pro/le/tariat 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I don't think you quite understand how psychological abuse works...

        [–]DrMobius0 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Typically, in an emotionally abuse relationship, the dominant party will establish some form of control over the victim. Guilt and fear are very common tactics for emotional control. Often times, emotional abuse patterns set in without either party necessarily knowing. This is especially true of people who have been in emotionally abusing relationships in the past who view what they're experiencing as normal.

        Once they're established, it basically gives the abuser control over the victim, because for one reason or another, they're afraid to leave. These reasons don't have to be for fear of bodily harm. They can be things as simple as believing no one will love you again. These may seem stupid, but for people who have rock bottom self esteem, it's very easy to fall into.

        This happens regardless of gender or sex, though I'm not sure if the tactics used vary by sex or not.

        [–]rentaroco 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It doesn't sound stupid, I've been in those kind of relationships before, I know what it's like.

        I just don't think it's technically rape. I agree that it's basically rape.

        People I've known have done terrible things to me that sent me spiraling into depression. The things they did make them terrible people. But they didn't make me feel a certain way. You can't control what another person feels. I was already feeling that way and they took advantage of it.

        [–]OceanRacoon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Just because you're a little bitch with no spine doesn't mean she's a rapist, fuck. You're literally the poster child for the type of tumblrinas we complain about on here.

        Sure you felt violated, sure she's a horrible cunt, but throwing around terms like "I was raped" and accussing your ex of rape is a big fucking deal, not some emotional exercise of justification for your shitty decisions. It dilutes the term and contributes the creation of subs like this one and the hatred of feels over reals SJWs.

        Find another way to deal with your weak personality without accusing people of rape

        [–]CrystlBluePersuasion 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

        When you guilt someone into doing something in a relationship, you're threatening them with prolonged grief and other behavior feuding couples sometimes partake in. This is what he was threatened with, and he felt he was raped because of it.

        Edit: We're talking about rape here, he felt he was sexually violated through coercion. Sex is an intimate experience and it's a powerful factor in sexually active couples. It's not the same as being forced to go to a fucking wedding or something.

        [–]cjackc 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

        If I don't want to go to a wedding ceremony for a girlfriends friend but she will be mad or break up with me if I don't go, does that mean she kidnapped me?

        [–]CrystlBluePersuasion -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        No, what I'm saying is its different with each situation and was simply judging on what the original commenter said.

        Edit: I guess votes are what is judging this person, not the content of anyone's argument. No answers or compassion here, simply brigade voting

        [–]15yearoldphilosipher 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

        He may feel he was raped, but he was not. My mom made me go to school in the morning against my will, I don't claim I spent time as a slave or kidnapped.

        Like the other poster said, if someone convinces you to go to an event - are you kidnapped until you get back home?

        Are you crazy or what?

        EDIT: Oh another question - if an advertisement convinces me to buy something, is that stealing? Have I been stolen from!!!? All these years!!?!?!

        [–]tastyscavengerIdentifies as subhuman 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

        So what you are saying is: he didn't want to deal with his relationship issues so he just slept with her. Still doesn't sound very rapey.

        [–]CrystlBluePersuasion 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

        So he's just got to suck it up and act tough, push all those emotions down because he really didn't get raped? I'm sure he can understand that if another 10 or 20 people tell him that.

        She made him sleep with her, she was drunk and coerced him for an hour. How would you people respond to this if the genders were reversed?

        [–]tastyscavengerIdentifies as subhuman 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

        You can have terrible things happen to you that are similar to but not actually rape, no one is debating his feelings they are debating his statements.

        Doing things that are against your wants and needs because you don't want to deal with conflict properly is poor decision making, not coerced rape.

        They should respond the same; the fact that you think my answer will change because of that is actually pretty insulting.

        I am not even speaking from a distance to the issue I have had this experience happen to me before to a much greater degree but even I do not refer to what happened as rape as it cheapens the experiences others in my life have gone through.

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          [–]PoundTownUSA 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Please, Oh Omniscient One, please tell us how you know this side of the story we're not privy to?

          [–]RichardRogerstrans-activist shitlordkin 12ポイント13ポイント  (17子コメント)

          Nagging and causing guilt are not coercion or duress. Not in the slightest. Bugging someone until they choose to give in is a shitty way of influencing their decision, but it doesn't take the decision away from them. It wasn't rape because it didn't involve threats of violence or harm.

          [–]iiowynTW: Kink positive dysphoric trans woman 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          What if a divorced couple one parent said they would only allow visitation with the kids if the other parent would have sex with them. Would you view that as rape?

          [–]RichardRogerstrans-activist shitlordkin 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          No, partly because that's not a legally enforceable threat but mainly because depriving someone of their children doesn't cause duress. If you don't comply you might have to take it to court, but you aren't faced with imminent danger.

          コメントをもっと表示する (15 返事)

            [–]Desert2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            People have sex all the time without giving exactly 100% consent, and still don't consider it rape. It's definitely a contextual thing though, and by the sounds of OP she used his known issues against him in a very coercive way.

            [–]flippertygibbet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The situation is interesting.

            I'm also not comfortable with extending the very peculiar Tumblr idea of victimhood to men: I have serious problems with how it infantilizes women, so I really don't want to see it spread to men.

            And I'm really not comfortable extending the definition of rape to include 'sex I regret having.'

            If what this guy says is true, something shitty and abusive did happen to him, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to relax the legal definitions of things to the point where something shitty that happened becomes illegal.

            I really don't think what is supposed to have happened could be called rape. Abusive and bullying? Yes.

            [–]Flying_Burrito_Bro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Or she did completely and utterly leave you in a position where you had to do it?

            That's a really unfair definition of rape or sexual assault. The idea that you must be rendered incapable of making a meaningful choice aside from capitulation to qualify as a victim belies the fact that extremely coercive sex, especially occurring after some form of physical violence or intimidation, is very much rape/SA. Did the victim have a choice? Could he have fought/run/called for help?

            Maybe, but that's denying the terrifying reality of assault that leaves many incapable of making decisions that, in retrospect, may have saved them. I just take issue with the phrase "completely and utterly," as it seems to discount a lot of victims, especially men in situations like OPs. I won't weigh on whether or not his story would legally qualify as rape or SA, but I trust his sincerity in describing the emotional affect of that type of coercion and pressure.

            [–]My_Life_Uncensored -3ポイント-2ポイント  (9子コメント)

            When I broke up with her, I talked about this night, and she was convinced it was consensual. I did say "Ok, fine, let's have sex," and when that night she asked, "Did I take advantage of you?" I responded, "No, I said we should have sex."

            Which is why male rape seems more complicated. But really, it's simple. She psychologically coerced me into having sex against my will. For a good hour, I was trying to assert that I wasn't interested, but she kept at it, essentially telling me I was being a bad boyfriend for not fucking her. All of my words and body language were giving her clear signals that I did not want sex. I finally gave up, I guess because I was fed up with her advances and wanted her to stop. That's not what I call consensual sex.

            But when we look at the complexities of male rape, we realize that female rape is also complex. It's very rarely a man jumping her in an alley, or even involving date rape drugs. I think most of the time, rape is a power play between two people, and sometimes the aggressor is female, and sometimes the aggressor is male.

            [–]LegalAlt12093487 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

            That's how it was with my ex wife for a long time. Emotionally, things had been going down hill for a long time. She would have these irrational demands that I do things, and she'd pick fights over unrelated shit until I capitulated. Not sexual things, just like... freaking out over the fact that we lived in an apartment rather than a real house.

            "Get me a real house and we'll stop fighting" etc etc. Then she moved on to demanding things in bed that I wasn't comfortable with. She demanded that I tie her up, or insult her, or hit her. A few times I tried, but I just couldn't. So she got worse.

            She started just watching porn while we had sex. She didn't ask about it, she would just open up her laptop in the middle of things and start watching it. I told her how terrible it made me feel and she didn't care. She started demanding that I watch it and pay no attention to her during sex. It made me feel disgusting.

            Finally, we went on vacation to Montreal for a week. That's when she really went off the deep end. I'd been awake for about 28 hours already, the first night we were there... and she decided that she was going to get hers no matter the cost. She used sleep deprivation as a way to coerce me into agreeing... she literally used the phrase "you don't get to sleep until you fuck me" in the ensuing fight.

            I did it, and then I fell asleep in the shower trying to make myself feel clean again.

            I can barely talk about it IRL, even with people that I trust... because it just sounds ridiculous. She's a full foot shorter than me. I know most people wouldn't believe it.

            [–]My_Life_Uncensored 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Sorry that happened to you, man. It sounds super shitty.

            For the longest time, I struggled with accepting it myself. And once I finally came to terms with what happened, it was a long time before I felt comfortable telling others. I feared no one would believe me, but people did.

            Just know that I believe you. Height and gender don't mean anything when it comes to rape (or sexual assault or whatever you want to call it).

            Glad to hear she is your ex. Those kinds of relationships can be really difficult to leave, because they can be so manipulating. Good job opening up like this, though. It gets easier the more you do it, as you probably know.

            [–]LegalAlt12093487 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

            The relationship didn't end for another 6 months after that, when I found out she'd gone on Craigslist looking for someone else to fuck. She told him "If you get me pregnant, I'll just pass it off as his. You kinda look like him anyway."

            I don't think she went through with it, but it doesn't matter.

            [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            My relationship went on about 6 months after the incident, too. A terrible, terrible 6 months.

            Man, your ex sounds like a bitch. Just remember that you didn't deserve that shit, and it can't stop you from happiness. I have no idea where you are in your recovery, but I wish you the best, brother.

            [–]Shayshunk 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Well again, no disrespect at all to what happened to you, but the definition of rape is when you do not give consent but are physically or psychologically forced into having sex. Like a woman who gets raped by being told if she doesn't allow a guy to have sex with her then her loved ones will be harmed. Or a guy being tied to a pole and being fed Viagra or vice versa. I think what happened to you was borderline because she was your girlfriend and things might've gone really south if you hadn't done it. A very similar thing happened to my girlfriend with her ex so I know exactly where you're coming from and I understand how it feels but I still wouldn't attach the word rape to it. Only because of how strong the word rape really is.

            [–]RichardRogerstrans-activist shitlordkin 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

            It was a shitty ultimatum to give, but saying someone would be a bad boyfriend for not having sex has nothing to do with coercion. This isn't even close to being a sexual assault, let alone rape.

            [–]My_Life_Uncensored 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Well, that's where I think perhaps the definition of "rape" needs to be re-examined. Even though I said "Ok, fine, let's have sex," my mind and heart were not in it.

            RAINN.org says:

            The exact definition of “rape,” “sexual assault,” “sexual abuse” and similar terms differs by state. The wording can get confusing, since states often use different words to mean the same thing or use the same words to describe different things. To see how your state legally defines these crimes, visit our RAINN State Law Database.

            To me, that means there is no clear definition, like you are supposing.

            In any case, "rape" or "not rape," I was sexually assaulted. I was coerced into sex. I was manipulated into saying, "Ok, fine." It was very traumatic, and affected my life for many years, and I had signs of PTSD because of it.

            [–]TastyArsenic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            consenting under duress is in a lot of places not considered to be valid. here's the thing if you vigorously pressured a girl for over an hour into having sex and she obviously wasnt into it, it's not okay when she eventually caves. consent under significant duress is not consent. if you cornered a woman in a bar and pressured her into sex for over an hour, if she caves to the pressure and agreed, it would still be sexual assault.

            [–]onlyonebread -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

            This is where the idea of "enthusiastic consent" comes into play. Sometimes yes doesn't always mean yes.

            [–]Bronkic 51ポイント52ポイント  (22子コメント)

            Convincing someone to have sex is not rape though. You couldstill have said "No", couldn't you?

            [–]ATX_engineer 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Is rape defined by physical force only, or can it include emotional/psychological manipulation without the presence of physical force?

            Really difficult subjects here, and ultimately what his GF did was wrong and at a minimum emotional abuse and manipulation.

            [–]WyldWyldStallyns 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I think it's contextual. For instance if a girl threatened to tell everybody you raped her if you did not have sex with her, she would be putting you in a situation where without any violence it would not be in your best interest to say no. Conversely if she she threatened to give you a noogie if you didnt have sex, that would be a threat of violence where it would still be in your best interest to say no. Its a hard thing to come up with a universal rule for but I think the weight of the immediate consequences presented to you plays a huge role.

            [–]Meecht 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

            If a guy/girl constantly demeans/insults their SO, but never lays a hand on them, is that considered abuse? Of course it is. Too many people think that rape is defined by physical force, but it can also include being manipulated into the act.

            [–]ATX_engineer 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Would you then define rape as any abuse used to achieve unwanted sex?

            [–]Meecht 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

            The use of subterfuge, manipulation, abuse, or force. I would extend "sex" to include oral, too.

            Basically causing somebody to have sexual contact through immoral means.

            [–]theSeeWord 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            that is ridiculous because you can't really go to jail for verbally abusing someone.

            [–]bmmbooshootonly cishet shitlords can see my flair 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

            you say "convincing" but it sounds more like "coercion, harrassing, abusing" to me. it may not be pure force but repeatedly and aggressively pushing someone to have sex with you is pretty rapey. also it's pretty naïve to just say "you could have said no" (he did) as if it was fine that she was browbeating him into doing something he didn't want to do. be careful of how you phrase things.

            [–]Bronkic 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

            All he said in his original post was that she "guilted him" into having sex. On it's own that didn't sound like coercion at all. If she indeed kept harassing and physically touching him for an hour, although he repeatedly told her to stop, than it's very "rapey" indeed. In that case, I wouldn't just call it "guilting him", though.

            [–]juanzycosmos/cosmos/cosmoself 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            There's a difference between what OP described versus when you're not in the mood but your partner is and you eventually agree. One's psychologically harassing the other's having a healthy relationship. In the latter case your SO will respect any boundaries and be able to tell if you legitimately don't want to, but it send like OP's gf treated it as you're going you eventually say yes I don't give a Fuck about your mental state.

            [–]My_Life_Uncensored -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

            She told me that if I didn't have sex with her, I would be a bad boyfriend. "Not being enough" is a big fear of mine, and she played it to her advantage. She manipulated me into feeling like I had to have sex with her in order to be a good boyfriend. That's what I mean by "guilting."

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]speakingcraniums 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Don't talk people into having sex with you what the hell is wrong with you. He could have kept saying no. Or they could have been respectful of their choice and not act like they are owed something.

              [–]Bronkic 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              My post was about the usage of the word "rape", not about what is right or wrong.

              [–]KrustyFrank27William Fried-kin 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Tell this to a woman who was raped, and see how well it goes over.

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I've gotten nothing but sympathy from women who have been sexually abused.

              I only get doubts from people who haven't had a similar experience.

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored -5ポイント-4ポイント  (3子コメント)

              But she didn't really "convince" me, rather, I was fed up with her advances and wanted her to stop. That's not what I call consensual sex.

              You couldstill have said "No", couldn't you?

              Actually I was saying "no"... for a good solid hour. I was trying to watch a movie. I kept telling her I wasn't in the mood. My words and body language were clear.

              Why did I give up? I guess I was weak, with not enough willpower to say "No, get off me, I don't want this, get out of my room!" In a way, i wish I did.

              Rape probably happens more to weaker people who don't have the strength to say and do these things. Rape is a power play, the aggressor is typically manipulative and preys on weaker individuals. Obviously now I'm stronger and this kind of situation would not happen to me now, but just because in the end I gave up, does not make it consensual.

              [–]170switch 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

              "Give up" as in you just laid there (albeit with an erection) and she did whatever she wanted to do.. Or did you do the thrusting, or doggy style or something which would've required you to actively participate even though you were weak and tired?

              [–]MMGI 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

              So she was drunk? And you were sober? Sounds like you raped her

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So if a drunk guy manipulates a sober girl into having sex, that means she raped him?

              [–]chapisbored 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Preach!

              [–]PotatoDonki 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

              If the tables were turned, people would definitely say that was coercion. I'm sorry that happened to you.

              [–]TruthNotFeelings 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This is what gets me. If a woman were to post that, you'd have very few people fighting her so vehemently. And here I thought reddit was full of misogynists!

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Thanks. I think every gender has difficulties they face, and the "men can't be raped" myth is a particularly debilitating one for men. Hopefully my experience can get people to think more critically, though. And a lot of people have here.

              [–]Sengura 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

              Can that really be considered rape? Guilt into sex? I mean, you consented it. She didn't force you to do it. She made you feel guilty about it until you consented to do it.

              Just trying to understand the situation.

              [–]yes_thats_right 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

              sorry that happened man.

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Thanks. It sucked, but I found a great woman who helped me get through it. We are going on year 2 of marriage!

              [–]slayerx1779 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Life kicked you in the balls and you chokeslammed it into the table. GG, brother.

              [–]CoolCid2020fores-kin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Congrats on the marriage part

              [–]uklu 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              cool story bro

              [–]AeroSpiked 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              After that run down, I'm not sure if I was raped or not. About 15 years ago I was passed out drunk on a friends living room floor and woke up to find a large unattractive female guest had depantsed me and was riding away. I was still too trashed to do anything about it so just rode it out. There were no diseases or children involved so ultimately my feelings about it were, "Well, that was weird." I couldn't muster a shit to give. The drinking problem was inexorably linked to my social life which I no longer have for unrelated reasons. Probably was rape, but I don't care. Is that a "thing" or am I just weird?

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              How you want to define it is up to you. But I would say that is without a doubt rape.

              When women pass out drunk, and wake up to a man pounding her without her consent, it's pretty much a sure thing that she was raped.

              Just because you had a drinking problem doesn't mean it's not rape. You weren't able to give consent even if you were awake, you were still incapacitated.

              I suspect your indifference is you actually repressing your real feelings of it.

              [–]altDOTnerd_obsessive 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              For example, she had different playlists in iTunes she would play, one for when I was being a "good BF"

              what is the exchange rate of GB music to tendies?

              [–]regeya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              She'd make fun of my balding head and tell me it's okay, because she will still love me even with a bald head, even though other girls won't.

              Yep, that's an abusive relationship.

              The legal, FBI defintion of rape doesn't even include vagina-on-penis rape: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." To me, this means our definitions need to be updated.

              Amen. I can only assume that when a precious snowflake tries to make the argument that men cannot be raped, they're either assholes leaning on the FBI definition, or misguided by those same assholes.

              [–]ba1018 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              Hey man. Glad you got away from a shitty person. Finding a healthy relationship or simply getting out of an unhealthy one is a great thing.

              I know your comment has created a bit of a kerfuffle here, and you're probably sick of it, but I just wanted to clarify something - a point which I feel is kind of important, but has been seemingly glossed over in the discussion resulting from this comment (or maybe I missed it).

              If you'd rather not respond, I get it. But anyway:

              Yes, I call it "rape" or "sexual assault" and will continue to do so until there is a better word to describe what I've experienced. I felt as violated and broken as many other "legit" rape victims I've met. And really, there's no better word. Except maybe "Sexual coercion," but something tells me that those of you who disagree with "rape" will also disagree with "sexual coercion." If you have a better word for it than either "rape," "sexual assault," or "sexual coersion," let me know.

              I know you personally call it rape. I think what a lot of people who disagree with that implicitly feel is that anything that a society classifies as rape should be criminal i.e. punishable by law. Expanding it to legally encompass all forms sexual coercion would be tantamount to claiming that what your ex did to you was morally equivalent to rape at knife-point.

              As you may have guessed, I wouldn't say you were raped. I think what your ex did was immoral. It was shitty. But I don't think she's a criminal. Nor do I think pushy, selfish teenage boys are criminal. Are they and others who incessantly beseech others for sex in the wrong? Yes, but again, I can't justify morally equating them with what I would call rape (what captures my notion is violence or threat of violence or Bill Cosby, more or less).

              I guess my question is do you think what your ex did was criminal? Do you think she should be punished? If so, how harshly? How should we as a society handle grayer areas of all instances of what you and others would call coercive rape? Should we have legal classifications like "rape in the nth degree"? I ask these questions because I'd say allowing your situation and others to be called rape opens a can of worms when it comes to moral and legal implications for me. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

              [–]Shirrapikachu 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Holy fuck. The comments on this are exactly why we need more awareness and help for men in regards to rape. I am also a victim of coerced rape, though I am a woman, and I'm so sorry people are writing those nasty things to you. When you know it's rape... You know, even if you try and rationalize it and make it okay after. For years I didn't admit that the first time I had sex I was raped. I was severely intoxicated and absolutely did not want to have it and was pressured into it by my boyfriend at the time. I was traumatized after, and felt awful. Cried and cried and told him I never wanted to do it again but ended up being pressured into it and other sexual acts for several more months.

              Since he was my first serious boyfriend and the first guy I ever had sex with my relationship with sex was damaged for every person I dated after. I didn't even draw the connection until recently because I didn't understand that rape doesn't always have to be a violent attack you actively try and get away from. Now I'm in therapy trying to repair the damage and have a normal, healthy relationship with sex. I wish you luck in healing.

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Thank you for your kind words, and for sharing your situation. I like to share my story because, even though it is hard for me to deal with the backlash of doubters, it starts a conversation and gets people to think about the complexities of male rape, and if we can understand that, then we can better understand rape in general.

              I, too, was in denial forever. It was another 6 months of the relationship, and when she studied abroad, the shit hit the fan regarding the emotional abuse. Finally, I came to terms with what happened/was still happening, realized it was not okay, and broke up with her. (what a weird breakup, BTW. She was so abusive during it, it was like, wait, who's breaking up with whom here?)

              I wish you luck in your healing, too. It took someone truly special to make me feel like I could trust women again, and we've been married for over a year now :D

              Thanks again.

              [–]Shirrapikachu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Yeah I feel you. Finally I've got a very patient and loving SO who is teaching me the connection between sex and love. Thanks for sharing your story :)

              [–]15yearoldphilosipher 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

              You are the worst man. When a wife nags her husband to take a new job, is she guilty of slavery? When moms make their children get up for school in the morning under much duress and threats, is the mother a torturer? When a dad makes his son take out the trash against his sons will, is that harrassment/slavery?

              Come on. There is no way you are serious. I feel in no way bad for you after reading your story. I feel bad for the people who have to interact with you. Like your family, girls who are unfortunate enough to meet you and not realize what you are like, co-workers... Poor bastards.

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

              /u/15yearoldphilosipher

              A fitting name.

              [–]15yearoldphilosipher 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

              If an advertisement convinces me to purchase something are they stealing from me?

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

              Still a fitting username.

              [–]15yearoldphilosipher 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Are there like rape counseling groups you can attend or what do you do after you feel like you were raped?

              Edit: Downcoercsions? Really???

              [–]My_Life_Uncensored 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

              I saw a therapist for some time and we talked about this now and again. It wasn't until years after the incident, however.

              There are rape counseling groups, but I never sought them out. I preferred to work through it on my own.

              [–]15yearoldphilosipher 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Feeling raped because someone you are intimately involved with convinced you to have sex is a shitty perspective and attitude. Get some control of your thoughts and emotions. Life is 10% whats happens to you and 90% how you react to it.

              コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)