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all 124 comments
[–]Jigglypigglypuff 49 points50 points51 points  (115 children)
At this point, I think we all know Isis doesn't really care much about Islam and its rules...
[–][deleted]  (109 children)
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    [–]Bathera[M] 2 points3 points4 points  (23 children)
    You have previously raised up the issue of there being anti-Shia sentiment that the others agreed with and did act on it. Now, you are generalizing a sect in Islam with:
    mass killings of shias, enslavement, rape
    There are users here that are of the Salafi ideology and they would disagree with you. This is the same as non-Muslims generalizing all Muslims after looking at ISIS. Except you have made that group smaller and called it 'Wahhabi'.
    If you want to have a respectful discussion, feel free to do so. But do not make inciteful, disrespectful comments that will undoubtedly create a larger divide, based on nothing except your personal opinion.
    Make another post if you wish to discuss this in a respectful way and keep the sectarian propaganda out of r/islam.
    [–]Paragon23100 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
    No, I haven't. I have never said that all Salafis, for example do this. I have specifically used the term Wahhabi, which is used to denote Salafi extremists. I am arguing however, that Salafism and Wahhabism are very similar, which is fine to point and is acceptable in the realm of debate. However, I have not applied this to all Salafis.
    Besides that, the specific acts I mentioned there which you conveniently left out in your quotation, was the actions of Daesh. Do you deny that Daesh has done this? Please edit your comment to include my full quote.
    I previously reported and messaged you the sectarian and inappropriate use of a term here, and yet now checking this again, you have not deleted it. I think it's disgusting that you're removing my comment that is non-vulgar here, yet doing nothing about comments like the one I've linked. If you're going to delete this, I see no reason as to why you haven't deleted the other comment I linked, even though I both reported it, and inboxed it to every mod. Shows the clear bias.
    /u/Sa19, /u/HulaguKan, look at the modding in this place.
    [–]HulaguKan -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
    Interesting, isn't it?
    [–]Paragon23100 1 point2 points3 points  (20 children)
    Pretty crazy, as I can debate against Wahhabism all I want here and that's all that will happen, and you're going out of your way to remove that. Yet comments like Rafidi, sectarian sentiment that people actually act on to go and blow themselves up in Shia mosques is not being removed, even though I reported the comment and inboxed it to all the mods. Shows where your priorities are at.
    [–]Bathera[M] 0 points1 point2 points  (19 children)
    You can link me comments that call Shia rapists, murderers, slavers and I will personally remove them. Don't victimize yourself to justify your views. The reason for removal was not because you called Salafis, 'Wahhabis'. It was your tone in your comments and clear incitement.
    [–]Paragon23100 1 point2 points3 points  (17 children)
    I have never called all Wahhabis rapists, slavers, and murderers. Do not lie, and purposefully distort what I said. READ MY COMMENT. I specifically said ISIS does that, and said there are justifications for it in Wahhabi ideology. I even noted this is pushing the bounds of what is acceptable there.
    Don't lie. You purposefully misquoted me in your comment to make it seem like it was something else. This is deceitful, and I ask that you edit your comments making this claim to clarify that I did not.
    [–]Bathera[M] 0 points1 point2 points  (16 children)
    Their is a jusitification in Wahhabi ideology for every single thing they do, like mass killings of shias, enslavement, rape, though to be fair some of their actions, like the burning alive even pushes the limits of what is acceptable there.
    You said there is a justification of this in 'Wahhabi' ideology. You want mods to start removing comments that call Shia 'Rafidhi' but insist on calling Salafis, 'Wahhabi'.
    As for suggesting that you did not say 'Wahhabis' were rapists, slavers and murderers, that is a matter of semantics. You are implying that all Salafis in the world are following an ideology that allows those things. Seems very similar to what bigots do with regard to Islam.
    This is going to be my last comment on this. I would have removed your comment if it was against Shia as well. As I said earlier, if you want to have a discussion of this sort, feel free to make a post and do it in a respectful way, which you have not done here.
    Salam Alaikum.
    [–]Paragon23100 -1 points0 points1 point  (15 children)
    You want mods to start removing comments that call Shia 'Rafidhi'
    Nope. I never said that. What I find concerning is that you are actively removing comments that say Wahabbi--however you are NOT removing comments that say Rafidi. Total double standard.
    You are implying that all Salafis in the world are following an ideology that allows those things
    No I'm not. Didn't you see that I was referring to Wahhabis, not Salafis? And it is totally acceptable to compare the two.
    Besides, read Dabiq, ISIS magazine. All the justifications are there in plain sight.
    do it in a respectful way, which you have not done here.
    I have been nothing BUT respectful.
    This is going to be my last comment on this.
    If you're going to delete my comments, it is unfair to just delete mine. Don't just let one side of a debate exist.
    [–]Bathera[M] 0 points1 point2 points  (14 children)
    Nope. I never said that. What I find concerning is that you are actively removing comments that say Wahabbi--however you are NOT removing comments that say Rafidi. Total double standard.
    Already addressed.
    I have been nothing BUT respectful.
    That is simply not true. Your intentions I do not know but I can extrapolate from your actions. You cross-posted this post to /r/shia and complained how /r/islam is biased against Shia, after you bring your own sectarian propaganda. You had this post brigaded as a result and abused that to make comments against a sizable sect of Islam with its adherents in this sub. To say you are not being disrespectful is objectively not true.
    If you're going to delete my comments, it is unfair to just delete mine. Don't just let one side of a debate exist.
    I have deleted most of the conversation other than any comments that do not violate any rule. These include yours.
    Feel free to go back to /r/shia and spread more sectarian hate or make another thread to have a respectful discussion. The choice is yours.
    [–]Paragon23100 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    I deserve a response to the accusations you are making against me, ESPECIALLY brigading, as they are serious. So please, I expect a response.
    [–]rejectionist 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
    the thread is currently posted with the www.np.reddit.com... link, barring brigading. also reddit admins have sophisticated tools to prevent brigading.
    i think you are behaving in an ignorant manner. you claim to defend salafis, but you are saying that wahabi = salafi. its a fact that ISIS relies on wahabi texts and imagery to support their campaign. its not really disputed by anyone. for you to delete this shows you are the biased one.
    [–]Paragon23100 0 points1 point2 points  (9 children)
    /r/Shia is a small sub. I posted it there because at the time I thought the debate was concluded. That's clear, even in the title. As well, I used an np link, so no brigading would take place. Only one user who also frequents there commented here, and one of the only people who responded to that sub disagrees with me.
    I have not said anything sectarian. In fact, I was discussing everything in a respectful manner and nothing I've said has been propagandistic or untrue. Do you deny that ISIS has justifications in Wahhabi ideology? These justifications can be found in its magazines, Dabiq. This is actually what I was discussing with other users. What is sectarian propaganda about that.
    Two final things: I started using this sub, not /r/Shia. So it's not be going back to /r/Shia, as if this is some sort of conspiracy.
    Secondly, I am not a religious partisan. I actually pointed that I didn't refer to Hezbollah or Hamas as Wahhabi groups, even though I consider them both extremists.
    You are the one using inciteful, hateful, and sectarian language here. Not me.
    [–]rejectionist 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    You can link me comments that call Shia rapists, murderers, slavers and I will personally remove them.
    Lol yea right. Every single user on /r/shia reports that the mods ignore their reports. For you to imply otherwise shows you are not being serious.
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                                [–]moon-jellyfish 1 point2 points3 points  (7 children)
                                I'm tired of the dumb apologetic backflips this sub always makes for this ideology.
                                Nobody's making apologetics. People are just tired of literally everything being blamed, on mythical "Wahhabis".
                                You yourself admitted on a previous thread, that you hadn't read any of Ibn Abdul Wahhab's works, so it's kinda funny that you're constantly blaming his ideology.
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                                  [–]moon-jellyfish 3 points4 points5 points  (5 children)
                                  ? Alright. Your the one saying Wahhabism is responsible for everything in the Muslim world here, not me.
                                  Nope. Don't put words in my mouth in such a dishonest fashion.
                                  Have you read the works of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed? Yet you still consider Ahmadis to be non-Muslim.
                                  I've read some of the excerpts of his that contain kufr. But feel free to continue making negative assumptions and suspicions of me.
                                  O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful. Surat al-Hujurat, Verse 12
                                  Have you read the works of Sistani, or the Shia Imams? Yet you still stated as if it was a universal fact that it is impermissible to pray behind them.
                                  And in that thread, I redacted my statement when I realized there's a difference of opinion.
                                  [–][deleted]  (3 children)
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                                    [–]itsPropa 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
                                    ideology is Wahhabism
                                    This is not a concrete ideology, it doesn't exist outside of your accusations. 5rooj has existed for centuries prior to Ibn Wahhab, and it manifested itself in the exact same fashion it does today, there are literally no discernible differences between the earlier fundies and the fundies of today. "Wahhabism" also doesn't explain how the upper echelons of ISIS are ex-baathists (secularists).
                                    You people simply refuse to acknowledge that there will always be people who use religious fundamentalism as a tool to rally young muslim men to help them build a legacy, you present it as a poisons ideology to imply there is a cure but the reality is no matter the sect and religious leanings, religious fundamentalism will always manifest itself in the same way and the only cure is moderation and religious scripture.
                                    [–]Paragon23100 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                    Actually, seeing as to the books I've referenced, its clear this does exist as a clear ideology. In fact, even people on this sub admit this ideology exists, just don't admit the role it plays.
                                    [–]youngvaseline -3 points-2 points-1 points  (27 children)
                                    I'm tired of you and your few group of Shia on this subreddit who throw the term Wahhabi into anything you deem extremist to demonize Saudi and further your own self-interests.
                                    You have close to no knowledge of the scholarship or daleel behind anything "Wahhabis" do and how it relates to the larger Sunni tradition and yet you constantly want to paint Wahhabis in the light of Daesh.
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                                      [–]youngvaseline -5 points-4 points-3 points  (6 children)
                                      This literally contributes nothing to the conversation. I'm discussing daleels, scholarship, and you bring to me historical events that are only sourced on a blogsite(lol btw). IF the early leaders did this, it doesn't speak to anything that is in their belief system. I want you to bring me a quote from their books or from ibn Abdul-Wahhab where he says it is Halal to go pillage a village and kill innocents OR show me how these people justified to kill people with "Wahhabi ideology." And yet again, how does those rulings relate to the evil things that Daesh.
                                      Jazakullakhair
                                      [–]itsPropa 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                      They won't.
                                      They are not allowed to read the books that they claim contains all these violent re-imaginations of jihad, they will quote a guy or two a blog or two a bearded man or two and ask you to take their opinion and fatawa as concrete evidence. But you will never ever ever see them dissect a book independently and debate it because that would require religious knowledge, a slight proficiency in arabic and some effort. Never mind the fact that all of these books are freely available online.
                                      [–]Paragon23100 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
                                      When people bring up the Safavid invasion, they always reference this blog site, especially to make up the point that Shiism is an Iranian invention (which is not put forward by this site). HOWEVER, bring up this site for another HISTORICAL event which this guy has a PHD in and suddenly, oh it's not reliable. Have some consistency at least.
                                      [–]youngvaseline -2 points-1 points0 points  (3 children)
                                      There is literally over 50 sources on the wiki page you can read. Unlike, the 1 source you have from when I googled for it. The wiki article on it links back to the same blog.
                                      Thanks again, for addressing the core issue of my post and not the small side note in parenthesis.
                                      [–]Paragon23100 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                                      Thanks again, for issuing the core portion of my post and not the small side note in parenthesis.
                                      I did not get this part. Please repeat your point so I can address it. Also, my comments are being deleted?
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                                            [–]youngvaseline 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
                                            You know who else studies those books? Saudi. And last time I checked, they aren't considered a terrorist state that rapes women and children, and kills innocents.(inb4 ya they do)
                                            You know what other books AQ and IS study too? At the very least, the Quran and the books of the Sunnah such as Bukhari. How do we know their ideology is coming from the Quran or from the books of ibn Abdul-Wahhab? Bring me SPECIFIC evidences of justification that Daesh uses that is in the books of ibn Abdul-Wahhab.
                                            I believe that Daesh are the way they are because they are the Khawarij not because of any ideology you claim they follow. Whether they were Sufi, Shi'ite, etc they'd be the same because these people are Khawarij in their ideology and they match the description of many of the things the Prophet(saw).
                                            Wallahu'alam
                                            [–]Sa19 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
                                            Numerous leaks point to the fact that a large percentage of funds for terrorist organisations come from Saudi Arabia. They are more interested in protecting their own citizens from terrorists (and that is understandable) than preventing supposed charities in Saudi Arabia from funding foreign terror groups or Saudi citizens traveling to other countries to fight in terror groups.
                                            As for the thing about killing innocents, Saudi Arabia does that. They have executed numerous innocents on charges of "black magic", which obviously can't be proven.
                                            [–]youngvaseline 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                                            Yet again, you haven't answered the question bro. Stop, this is just a lazy response. I'm telling you I don't care about these things they do. I'm not here trying to argue whether or not everything Saudi does is right. They are a wilaya like any other wilaya that exists and they commit error and sins like any other wilaya.
                                            I'm talking about IDEOLOGY, that is the issue. For example, if a Muslim kills another person(he has no justification), then we can both agree that it is a major sin. But, if he doesn't say that it is halal to do, if he doesn't say that it is part of what he believes and it is from Allah, then at the end of the day it is just a sin. I want you to think deeper and think about the ideology and the specific evidences they cite and use because that is the core issue.
                                            [–]Sa19 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                            Calm down friend. From what I've read about Abdul Wahhab, he was an extremely strict person, but refrained from takfir and killing villagers and non-combatants. However, his son and followers threw away this restraint and went on many killing-sprees. I still call them Wahhabis because they take their inspiration from him and justify their actions using his teachings (I am talking about Saudi Arabia here, but Daesh does this as well - you can see this by reading their propaganda magazine Dabiq).
                                            [–]itsPropa -1 points0 points1 point  (8 children)
                                            The other problem is that most Salafis haven't read the works of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab.
                                            This doesn't even make sense, so on one hand salafi's collectively follow the teachings of abd-alwahaab by encouraging factionalism and accusations of takfeer and on the other hand they haven't read it so we don't realize our spiritual leader (lol) is the biggest takfeeri and sectarian subhanallah. Also ISIS reads all the books that define them as salafi yet most salafi's haven't read according to this guy of yours.
                                            Great logic there. So which is it? Are we takfeeri or are we not?
                                            No everyone else clearly knows it better even if they have never read ibn wahhab themselves and even if they habitually post out of context quotes or rather foist their perception of an ideology on a man whose books they have never read because their imam in the mosques assures them he's the devil.
                                            Quote all the "guys/shyookh" you want it doesn't really add anything to the debate, we all know if the village rapist had a long enough beard, big enough turban and sweet enough tongue he could also be considered a "sheikh".
                                            [–]Paragon23100 -1 points0 points1 point  (7 children)
                                            Great logic there
                                            Derivations, and the Salafi scholars have all read them, not always the Salafis. Not all Salafis are scholars, obviously.
                                            [–]itsPropa 0 points1 point2 points  (6 children)
                                            Your original comment has been deleted, and I don't want to put words in your mouth so I'll leave this debate for now. In the end he said she said is inconsequential to me, what a random redditors thinks about Salafi's is neother here nor there.
                                            I prefer a meaningful debate on the contents of the books that everyone here claims fuels the rape and pillage of ISIS, I may open a thread for that particular reason, just a heads up so you have time to accumulate all your quotes and refutations. Or if you perhaps decide to read the actual books.
                                            [–]Paragon23100 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
                                            My comments are being deleted now unfortunately. I want you to note that I previously inboxed all the mods and reported a sectarian comment, and that wasn't removed. Yet my comments, which are not vulgar are.
                                            Anyways, maybe we can have a separate debate via PM?
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                                                            [–]hydarov comment score below threshold-10 points-9 points-8 points  (4 children)
                                                            ISIS were created by the CIA not to spread Islam, but to reap misery and wreak havoc on the middle east.
                                                            [–]HulaguKan 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
                                                            Tens of thousands of Muslims got brainwashed by the CIA? How did they manage that without anyone noticing.
                                                            [–]hydarov -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
                                                            Same way they did it with Al-Qaeda.
                                                            [–]HulaguKan 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                            Tell me. How did they do it?
                                                            [–]Jigglypigglypuff 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                            I wouldn't say created, although I do think Isis is a cause of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Point is Isis is here, and its our job as an Ummah to deal with them.
                                                            [–]Ghazamfar 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                            Can we get a source for this? I believe The Holy Prophet said these words.
                                                            [–]Sebsebzen comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (5 children)
                                                            What about the Qisas principle? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas
                                                            [–]youngvaseline 10 points11 points12 points  (3 children)
                                                            What about it? Qisas, if applied, is determined by a judge in a court of Sharia. It's literally in the mini description on the wiki article. Or did you not get past the first 5 words?
                                                            [–]Sebsebzen 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
                                                            ISIS justifies the burnings and other horrendous executions by qisas. The pilot dropped bombs that burned people, so he should be burned too. I'm pretty sure al-Bagdhadi can order some ad-hoc Sharia court to hand out the verdict.
                                                            I'm not saying they are right, I'm merely pointing at their own words on how they justify it.
                                                            [–]Meerul264 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                                                            war =/= crime.
                                                            [–]SamBoterham 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                            The way ISIS see it; war against them == crime.
                                                            [–]dozymoe 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                            When you kill someone, their family has the right to take your life. So suicide bombing is kinda a cheat, them taking their life which is no longer theirs or dying while the victim family hasn't forgive them.
                                                            And so does inciting war, there was a story of Muhammad PBUH ordered an assassination, or something like that.
                                                            There are two crimes punishable by death. Both of which are state affair, horizontal, relationship with other people (rather than relationship with God, vertical).
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