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Weekly SWS discussion - September 03, 2015 (self.ShitWehraboosSay)

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Only victors allowed.

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[–]M35MakoHorten Hears a 'Boo 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

One of my friends keeps going on about how Fury is one of the most historically accurate films of all time because it shows, and I quote, "that American soldiers were as bad as the Germans and were not good guys".

All. My. What.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

The disturbing part is that he is still your friend, and not an ex-friend.

[–]M35MakoHorten Hears a 'Boo 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Ah, he isn't malevolent, just ignorant. He is doing business studies at university, so it is clear as to why.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

You are not building a good case for your friend here! :D

[–]M35MakoHorten Hears a 'Boo 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I was at least able to make him realise that his belief that "the American Civil War had nothing to do with slavery" was wrong. There is hope for him yet.

[–]godeschechHitler had no plans to kill the jews 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly I think a lot of people like that aren't racist or stupid, just ignorant. I remember talking to my Dad, a very well published astrophysicist, who believed a couple of badhistory tropes just because he had learnt them before and didn't know any better.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, he sounds like he has a case of second opinion bias.

Less jerky: that whole Greatest Generation worship can get in the way of taking about war crimes committed by the Allies.

Makes it difficult to show how systematic the crimes of the Waffen-SS and Heer really were, in Italy, Russia, or France.

[–]Repulsive_AnteaterTime's Super Awesome Dude of the Year 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

There we go.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Up yours, bot.

Reading tons of papers on German warfighting doctrine. It's rather scattered.

Any interest to get that posted here when done?

[–]WARitterJust following orders 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

YES.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Dammit. Now I'll actually have to write and source that shit.

Grumble.

[–]jungosiVictor Halder 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't act like you don't love Wörk

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't. I have more work, because I try do things right the first time, so I don't have to do it again.

[–]godeschechHitler had no plans to kill the jews 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

I really want to visit some of the concentration/extermination camps and I wanted to ask which ones you guys would recommend I go to.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Theresienstadt, Bergen-Belsen.

The former to see how terrible the camp was that the Nazis showed the world. The other is the Urexample of the forced labor camp.

Auschwitz, if you have the stomach for an extermination camp.

[–]godeschechHitler had no plans to kill the jews 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks! I am hoping to visit next year.

[–]Spookies_I CANT HEAR OVER THE SOUND OF THE ENGINES FOR THE MOTHERLAAANNDD 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Dachau is pretty far south west. If your coming from Frankfurt, you can stop at the BMW Museum later.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Doesn't the BMW museum mostly skip over the time between 33 and 45, for some really weird reason?

If you are that far South, might as well visit the Deutsches Museum.

[–]Spookies_I CANT HEAR OVER THE SOUND OF THE ENGINES FOR THE MOTHERLAAANNDD 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

They did a little bit on the motorcycles they built and some of their engines. No more, no less. They also had some of their aircraft/engines from WW1 on display. The museum really has the most of its content in the interwar part, and after WW2

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So odd! It's like something sort of embarrassing happened!

[–]commiespaceinvaderI'm Victor who writes all the history 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mauthausen has a new exhibit that is rather well done. Ravensbrück is interesting but their stuff is old an a little decrepit.

[–]WARitterJust following orders 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

What is your favorite Allied fighting vehicle and why is it better than a Tiger?

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Priest. SPAG <3. Self explanatory why it's better than a Tiger.

[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORMThe Death Star was made with KRUPP STEEL 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

T-34 is love, T-34 is life.

[–]UnanimatedFelix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Centurion, Comet, Sherman Easy Eight and the T-34 are all drawn first.

[–]Spike52656 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bob Semple best tank

[–]jungosiVictor Halder 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

What do you guys think about creating some sort of "buyer-beware" list concerning literature about the Wehrmacht and the SS? IE why say 'Lost Victories' should be read with a huge grain of salt and maybe suggest an alternative.

[–]commiespaceinvaderI'm Victor who writes all the history 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think this is a very good idea. I deal a lot with literature on the Wehrmacht for my thesis and I ran across some rather problematic books, even from reputable places. It's mostly in German though...

[–]jungosiVictor Halder 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone from Germany I consider that helpful.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Blanket statement there: memoirs by Germans require a lot of critical reading.

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfThe Industrial Horde 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

ChristianMunich made a rather glorious appearance again in AskHistorians, late to the party thank God. The question had been answered, but that didn't stop him from spitting out skewed answers.

How's this for bullshit; the 12.SS lost 284 men, but the Canadians suffered 2800 casualties in the same period. I could hear him softly wanking. Here's the problem with that, his logic was (a) the 12.SS eventually ended up fighting every Canadian division so (b) let's list the 12.SS casualties in this time period and (c) let's list the casualties of the entire I Canadian Corps in the same time period. Yenius! German ubermensch!

I wanted to ask him for a source, but we've comprehensively ruined his posts so many times that he just gets downvoted by readers on reflex. He also would probably have just cited H. Meyer again, the same source I used - the problem is that you don't blindly cite guys like Meyer, you read them with nuance. For God's sakes we got a 3 month old post of his deleted recently due to its gross factual inaccuracy. Contrary to mod opinion, I'm belligerent, but not that belligerent; no point in giving him an audience by calling him out when leaving his answer untouched ensures it will basically never be read.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

It was such a giant wall of text, too.

But the best was when he said that a 12. Waffen-SS officer's memoir was "apolitical yet good".

That's impossible. You can't write a good unit history of the Waffen-SS, of you don't take about their atrocities. FFS, the atrocities had impact on the Western Front, if only because a platoon was busy murdering civilians, instead of dying for the Vaterland.

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfThe Industrial Horde [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Zhukov is one step ahead of me as usual, was just skimming the thread again and he ninja'd in two edits viz. the 12.SS's supposed casualty rates that I completely failed to mention myself.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayGood German [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Can't counterjerk that whole Waffen-SS is totes Elite trope hard enough.

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfThe Industrial Horde [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They were a good unit, but 'good' is about as far as I'm willing to take it. Tossing in fanaticism and a willingness to absorb casualties doesn't make you good, it makes you fanatic. To be sure, being a 'good' and well-trained unit is a compliment in and of itself in a war this large, with a basic necessity on conscripts and citizen-soldiers. We've always agreed that the German ersatz system was one definitive adv. the Germans had on the Americans/British, and the 12.SS is a good, late-war manifestation of it. However, it was in no way an elite.

The true mark of an above average unit is the ability to absorb casualties and still hit well above its weight, and basically no army had in 1944 with the exception perhaps of Allied paratrooper units and the 6.FJR, which was one of the few before-they-got-watered-down Fallscrhimjager units. We're talking about units who could resist or carry an attack with 30 percent effectiveness and no command and control, big difference from "Hurl armored fist into bocage, take town with 80 percent losses, sieg heil"

[–]commiespaceinvaderI'm Victor who writes all the history 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm writing my thesis on the Wehrmacht occupation of Serbia, specifically the going-ons on the divisional level. Of course, I am familair with most of the standard lit in German and English but I am not a military historian (more of a social historian) and I was wondering if anyone here was famliar with more - let's say - military history, specifically stuff concerning partisan warfare doctrine in a WWII context. Any recommendations?

Also, if anyone is familiar with Yugoslav research on the subject, I'd highly appreciate it. I speak BCS but still in the phase of familiarizing myself with the literature and it'd be really helpful if someone had a pointer.