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ReligiousMy trip to India (self.Zoroastrianism)

Mazdaian が 投稿

I just got back from visiting India and the Zoroastrian temples there, I was also able to discuss with my cousins the current state of Parsi Zoroastrianism and the future of the community.

First, the temples are and always will be beautiful to me. The Banaji Atash Behram is incredibly beautiful, and going in there to see the roaring fires left me in a trance I haven't felt in a long time. It was hot, the sweat drenched my sudreh, but I stayed for a while. I prayed, I contemplated the meaning of righteousness, my destiny and the future of my faith. I also went to some smaller Agiyaris and liked it there as well. Unfortunately one of the sadder points about all this was that the majority of the people at the Atash Behram and Agiyaris were older people and not that many young. It was a bit depressing to be honest, but I did take some solace knowing that many of the youth had migrated out of India.

I also went to Udwada and it was an interesting trip. I don't know why we cannot take pictures, as I find that utterly ridiculous. I also saw some Parsis who defy the whole 'we are pure' myths who could easily pass for Gujarati. Actually I saw that in Bombay as well. The Udwada Atash Behrams were very beautiful as well, and there was a section I went in and just sat and prayed and meditated. It was empty and quiet and there was a small fire there, but it was beautiful.

Finally on the topic of the community. I was concerned that the fall of our population was occurring and discussed some of my ideas with my cousins and their friends. A few were liberal, most were not.

On the topic of:

Conversion- Most were against it for economic reasons.

Children of women who marry out- 50/50 split, mostly due to India still being pretty misogynistic culture

Spouses who marry Zoroastrians- Most were against it again for economic reasons.

Introducing programs to bring poor Zoroastrians from Iran, Iraq, Tajikistan and Afghanistan to India as immigrants or refugees- Most were very much against it for economic and nationalist reasons. When I brought up that our grandparents came from Iran only a few generations ago, they said it is a different world now and they are Indian first and Parsi second. There is a huge influx of illegals from Bangladesh in Mumbai and that is creating a lot of tension in India because they are illegal and also Muslim.

I was saddened with the prevailing attitudes as these were the youth and they still held a lot of the old school thinking. The beliefs were not based in doctrine, but a mix of old school ethnocentrism and new school nationalism. I feel that there are Indians who would become Zoroastrian if given the opportunity and while it could never become like Christianity or Islam, I do think Zoroastrianism has the same promise as Jainism or Buddhism in India. However, I don't think that will happen for a few generations, at which point it might be too late.

Anyways that's my two cents, please feel free to add any ideas or comments.

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[–]SparxNet 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just a brief line to say this about the Banaji Atash Behram:

In the early 90s, there used to be a communal prayer held every Monday called a Hum Bandagi. This used to be attended by huge crowds - so many people would attend that standing room would be difficult. A lot of college going kids and school going kids would attend then (as did I) and still continue to visit the Atash Behram regularly. Those people would now be much older, naturally but the one thing that this Hum Bandagi ensured was an overall increase in young people visiting Agiaries / Atash Behrams more often and also praying more.

Seeing a lot more older people is quite natural - young people tend to visit early in the morning or late in the evening, depending on their job schedule.

I'm glad you had a memorable experience. Ushta Te.

[–]Mazdaian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I went three times, but even on the Parsi New Year there were mostly older folks. I did go quite early in the morning though, so that might be why.

Do you think an immigration/refugee program for poor Zoroastrians in the diaspora to India is a viable solution, similar to the Iranis a 100 years ago? There are still tens of thousands who would contribute to India and have a better life in India.

[–]packetOFfries 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Your idea to bring people from Iraq, Tajikistan and Afghanistan to India as immigrants or refugees seems saticarical. There is virtually no Zoroastrian presence in these countries plus I think it is pretty condescending of you to assume they would have a better life in India. Also please could you cite your 'tens of thousands' figure.

I've explained this to you many times before but your very notion of a rave existing is wrong. Race is a social contrast there is no such thing as a' Persian' race

Look up phenotypes and genotypes. The people of Khuzestan and Ilam Province generally look darker than other Iranians broadly speaking they have the same complextion as darker Parsees and Iranis.

Your old school/new school divide is quite frankly BS, ethnocentrism and nationalism are very old ideas in our community.

Also I would appreciate it if you could stop messaging me posts by /u/marmulak, if you have something to say say it him.

[–]Mazdaian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

I was referring mainly about the Kurds and Iranians. The Kurds are in Iraq. I have posted links about the Tajik Zoroastrian movement through links by Richard Foltz, a Canadian academic on Iran. The Afghanistan stat I found on wiki, but the source is weak. I also don't see how it's condescending, in fact it is a testament to the beauty of India in providing Zoroastrians opportunity while other countries in the Middle East don't.

I never mentioned anything about race. You previously misunderstood what I was saying, and you misunderstand once again. I am arguing against the Parsi purity myth. Also phenotypes consist of more than skin tone, such as features. The fact that many Parsis have some Indian features in conjunction with the genetic studies shows that there was mixing and flies in the face of all that Parsis are taught. It is an opportunity for Parsis to open up the community to outsiders.

I was simply giving options to maintain the population. I also don't think ethnocentrism is as ancient as you think, since the Tatas and Wadias married out and their kids were allowed into the fold and genetic studies have shown that the initial Parsi migrations married were mostly men marrying Gujarati women. And nationalism cannot be an old idea since India didn't exist till the 1940s and Indian nationalism is a recent phenomenon.

I also haven't emailed you anything about marmulak for over a month, and everything I told you I told him. Quite frankly I don't understand why you lash out and call me out on things I haven't even said. This is the second time you have done so and it is uncalled for. I suppose my post hit a nerve, but the fact that you as a mod have publicly stated things I sent to you via private message which were about a member who is quite anti-Zoroastrian is sad and disappointing.

[–]marmulak 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

* Posts by /u/marmulak solely represent the opinions of /u/marmulak and not the opinions of any subreddit or subreddit moderators

[–]packetOFfries -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Afghanistan is not a member of any Middle Eastern groups, but is a member of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation. Afghan culture and language can be considered closer to South Asia than the Middle East. Pashto is is an Eastern Iranian language, belonging to the Indo-European family. Dari is essentially a Afghan variant of Persian. Parts of Aghanistan were parts of India during the Raj (the British occupation of India). Don't quote me on this but there are at least 10 million Pashtun's in India alone.

Please describe these 'Indian features' you broadly categorise. Features perceived as 'Dravidian' by armchair anthropologists as you are also seen in the people of South-West Iran such as Khuzestan and Ilam, which I have already mentioned.

Do you know what the Rivayats were. They mention ethno-centrism, Dadabhai Naoroji (known as the Grand Old Man of India) was an Indian nationalist what about Madam Bhikaji Cama, Indian nationalism is by no means a "recent phenomena". You talk about Tata's and Wadia's, what about the Bella Captain who is thought to have been half Goan Christian and was adopted by a parsi family in Rangoon and a long drama ensured which I am sure you can read about... Bella was born at the turn of the last century and so her case predates both the Wadia and Tata cases. Also, the Wadia case is a completely different scenario as Neville Wadia's father converted to Christianity.

"Emailing" me posts made by other users two-three years is petty and I'm sure you are much better than that. By all means contribute to our community but please refrain from attacking/insulting others iresspective of their opinions. Our Prophet taught us a message of tolerance enshrined in the principles of Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta, which mean Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds.

Asha is the Avestan for truth and is an ideal every human should embody in there lives which is why in my opinion you should stop embellishing or even making up information, you should always research everything you say to stop disinformation. Our subreddit is often the first place people learn about Zoroastrianism which is why stopping disinformation is important.

I hope you can learn from my comment and become a more constructive member (spenta mainyu) rather than one who is destructive on this subreddit (angra mainyu). I wish you peace and retrospection. Please take a good look into yourself and see if this is the path you wish to follow because attacking other redditors is not just against Zarathustra's message but also against redditquete and could lead to your account getting banned by the administrators of reddit which has already happened to one prolific user of this sub (who won't be mentoined) who was attacking another redactors.

EDIT: BTW, whilst the some members of the Kurdish peoples are Zoroastrian most are actually living in relative affluence as /u/Rostamy-Zal I'm sure can confirm. I don't have any reliable figures but I doubt there are many Kurdish Zoroastrians. You also have to be careful to vet your proposed immigrants as some people pretend to be Zoroastrian in order to claim community funds (i.e. scholarships) and claim asylum.

[–]Mazdaian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

You are playing with semantics here. If you want to get technical with regards to Afghanistan it is a part of Central Asia, not South Asia. Speaking an Iranian language does not define what geographical region you belong to.

Did I mention Dravidian? You are putting words in my mouth again due to your own preconceived notions. Every region has specific features that are more statistically common to that region. A Gujarati may not look that different from a Maharashtrian or even a Tamilian but he does look different from an Arab or Iranian. It's just common sense. There might be overlaps but there are differences in features between groups of people.

You mention the Rivayats. The Rivayats allow for conversion. How can ethnocentrism even be argued if the very source you mention talks against it. You talk about Dadabhai Naoroji and Bhikaji Cama, but there were many Parsis who were pro British in our grandparents generation. And conversion is allowed if it happened one generation ago in the Wadia case? Sounds like the rules can be bent for the rich and powerful.

I was emailing you to highlight the fact that he has quite blatant anti Zoroastrian posts. Islam has attacked Zoroastrianism since its conception and we have a right to call out people and defend ourselves. If you were that offended initially you should have told me to stop then in this manner and I would have.

Asha is the Avestan for truth and righteousness. When we internally achieve those, we achieve universal harmony and order. I am not making up anything here at all. You have unnecessarily attacked me and quite frankly it is pathetic the manner with which you have done so. I ask you to show me where I have made up stuff and am spreading disinformation. Otherwise you in fact are going off the handle. Even the last time you attacked me I defended myself well and you deleted all your posts.

Your comments were absolutely unnecessary. I have done nothing but spread constructive ideas and messages. I haven't done anything destructive to anyone and in fact your own outbursts show you to be the one with the angry mind. I haven't even attacked marmulak, I simply highlighted things to you and that was also a month ago. When him and I were having our discussion you were all for it, giving me your blessing at the time. The very fact that you are bringing it up now suggests that your outbursts are emotionally charged.

In the end I mentioned the immigration as a suggestion to maintain the Parsi population. If someone as young as you is so offended by what I've said I highly doubt most in the older populations would even consider it. Without drastic changes there won't be any Parsis left in a hundred years and it seems to be headed that way. If you want to ban me go ahead, but I hope you as a mod leave as well. IranPRCV is a Christian but is a lot more neutral and stable than you.

[–]packetOFfries 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

DISCLAIMER I speak only for myself not as a moderator of this sub or any sub

I'm sorry I don't think you have actually read or understood the Rivayats. I can't remember the year but there are letters from Gujarat to Yazd in which ethno-centrism is discussed. Contrary to common thought, the Rivayats are not one text that has one message but basically a collection of correspondence between the Priests of India and Iran over a period of years. It shows how views have changed over those years and shows the individual views of the Dastur's who wrote. Different priests in different letters have very different and you attempts to broadly categorise it are another example of your 'disinfomation'.

I only said that the features you perceive as being "pure" are in contrast to Dravidian ones. Please tell me what features are more "persian" than others.

Of course we had many Pro-British Parsis that goes without saying tbh, its just that you claimed that Indian Nationalism is a recent phenomena. What about Vivkenanda, The Sepoy Mutiny of 1857 even Akbar-e-Azam and before him Ashoka can be interpret as having been Indian Nationalists. India as a concept existed way before 5 August 1947 (which is the date of Indian independence from the Raj).

The issue is not /u/marmulak's views which as a Zoroastrian I am taught to respect, it's more the fact that you essentially trawled his through post history to send me posts he made. I have no blessing to give you now and never had a blessing to give you then.

I don't really spend much of my time on this reddit so whilst I don't remember publicly arguing with you, it may have happened.

I am not offended by anything you have sent me or said, I was infact amused with your immigration masterplan. I have a life that dosen't revolve around this sub or this website and so I can't really be bothered to point out the holes in your argument or remember the last time we 'sparred'.

the 100 years argument is another example of this dinformation, please give me a citation for this fear mongering statistic, the most conservative estimates I have seen are 350 years..

Emotionally charged/unstable? I think maybe you are reading too much into what I say.

I've made my points clear and have said everything I have needed to say, any further comments/PM's from you will be ignored.

EDIT: this yahoo answers post clarifies the geographical position of Afghanistan

[–]Mazdaian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you read the rivayats? I will quote the rivayats which are pro conversion and an excerpt from a book. I wasn't trying to broadly categorize the rivayats and you brought it up with the argument that the rivayats promote ethnocentrism. I am now providing links to back up what I say and if you do not then you are the one who is promoting lies and disinformation.

1) https://books.google.ca/books?id=w1oBAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=rivayats+conversion&source=bl&ots=-rjuhhzRIy&sig=_C0CrvIczVWdQZyc7j-tx8P3f6o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwA2oVChMI97Of65jaxwIVBgWSCh0w9APp#v=onepage&q=rivayats%20conversion&f=false

"One controversial question discussed in the Persian Rivayats is that of conversion. It is hard to assess the extent to which the Parsis may have admitted non-Zoroastrians into the community prior to the 18th century. The emphasis on endogamy tended to preclude proselytism, and the Hindu caste system operated against such assimilation. There is some evidence from the Rivayats, that prior to the writing down of Qesse, Parsis had selectively admitted some 'outsiders', and this was a matter of debate. The Iranian priests address Parsi concerns about the conversion of household slaves or servants, with the advice that this was permissible as long as no harm would occur either to the religion or to the community, and that the correct initiation ceremonies took place. Parsi scruples appear to have mostly to purity issues regarding those non-Parsi servants' preparation of food for consumption at religious festivals and ceremonies. The Iranians, on the other hand, understood the question to stem from a concern to bring all humans to the right path of Mazda worship. The Rivayats urge the Parsis to permit such converts all of the rights of a Zoroastrian, including deposition in the dakhma.

http://www.avesta.org/rivayats/rivayat2.htm

2) Q: Can a grave-digger, a corpse-burner and a darvand (one of a foreign faith) become Behdins (i.e., be converted to the Mazdayasnian religion)? A: If they observe the rules of religion steadfastly and (keep) connection with the religion, and if no harm comes on the Behdins (thereby), it is proper and allowable.

Q: A Behdin turns darvand (i.e., goes over to another faith). If he returns to the religion of the Behdins, is it allowed or not? A: It is allowable. They should convert him to the religion in the way prescribed). He should be advised and admonished, should perform a patet and (then) Barashnom should be administered to him. He should again engage himself in performing penitential acts and should recant (his former deeds) Let it be known that he should be allowed (to be retaken) in this way.

Q: Musalmans convert a Behdin by force to Muhamedanism but the latter's heart is not set on Muhamedanism. (What is the decision)? A: Whenever (such a person) is converted by force to Muhamedanism and if his heart and mind are not set on Muhamedanism [the word is written in Avesta characters], then it is no fault of his.

On the topic of features, did I even mention anything as 'pure'. I simply stated that it was obvious that Parsis as a whole have mixed with local Indian populations and that some of them looked indistinguishable from the non Parsis in Gujarat. This is backed up by genetic studies. I have always argued against the 'pure' argument, which is inherent to the Parsi mindset and is the main reason why there is such xenophobia against allowing outsiders. It is why you lashed out for no reason.

I didn't trawl through Marmulaks posts, I was reading posts on Zoroastrianism in the Iran subreddit and his were in many of them attacking the faith. I simply pointed it out to you as a matter of caution. It was one post. You are assuming I trawled.

You lashed out a while ago, and when I pointed out where you were wrong you deleted your posts. You also assumed at the time I was speaking about race and purity, when I was not. You also challenged me on the genetic similarities of Iranian and Semitic people, and then deleted your posts when I sourced my material. It is the only time we ever exchanged any debate on the topic. You claim that you have explained to me 'many times' about race, and yet now have conveniently forgotten or can't be bothered to remember. Is your memory that labile?

For the population projection you can go here http://iussp2009.princeton.edu/papers/91429 and see the projected population in 2051. It is around 32,000 - 47,000 depending on the TFR. With a 0.75 TFR the projection is 32,000 and with a TFR of 2.1 it is stable at 47,000. Currently the TFR is 0.89 (http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol25/17/25-17.pdf) and thus it seems more likely that the the first projection will come true. If the TFR continues to fall, that would mean that the Parsi population by 2100 will fall by greater than 50% from 2051 to around 15,000. So it's not fear mongering and it's not extinction, but it is damn close to it.

It's pretty sad that any ideas to maintain the population are met with such fierce and irrational resistance, but it is a testament to the average Parsi mindset. I hope that the religion of Zoroastrianism stays alive, even though the xenophobic fanaticism of Parsis will ensure that it dies in the subcontinent. On this note I will stop commenting on any solutions for the Parsis as it is useless and judging by the down votes it seems that others are in agreement with your outbursts. I am glad I live in a country with a growing Zoroastrian population who are shedding the old destructive mindset.