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Jeff Davis Rape (self.Harmontown)

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I love almost everything about Harmontown. In almost every episode, I’m laughing so hard that I’m crying. I’m laughing so hard that it’s physically painful. But I can’t listen to it ever again. On my first listen through of Harmontown, I was caught up at episode 140, and started listening again. On my second listen through, I made it to episode 143 before I had to turn it off forever. I just can’t stand Jeff Davis. He won’t stop making rape jokes, making light of rape, raping PC’s and NPC’s in both D&D and Shadowrun, threatening to rape audience members, mocking rape survivors who are on stage. I really love almost everything about Harmontown and everyone involved except the co-host. I hate him so much, I can’t enjoy the show anymore. Which sucks, because I’ve spent hundreds of hours listening to Harmontown, and that fucker ruined it for me. Jeff Davis, if you’re reading this, I just hate you so much.

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[–]apaeter 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

I know this has nothing to do with the merits of this "discussion" (or maybe it does?) but the Breffy rape/murder and especially the reactions of the other characters and then again with the return and re-rapening of Robo-Breffy are some of the funniest moments I ever heard. The more insane it got, the funnier it was.

I hope as a group we find some way to treat rape victims and just generally sensitive people better and nicer than we are doing most of the time, but whatever that solution looks like, I hope it leaves room for exactly these kinds of over-the-top jokes too.

[–]trejdeksnis 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

OH man I wish there was a way for me to understand why it was so funny, but I don't think there is because comedy is so subjective. It bothered me but because the issue hits closer to home for me. I really think the only good way to handle this is to stop making those kind of jokes, because the laugh for some isn't worth the pain for others. I'm not saying we should always censor everything controversial, but IMO the rape jokes aren't worth it.

[–]apaeter 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

I hear you, and you might be right, I don't know. Just on a personal level I enjoyed these particular rape-centric bits/improvs, and so I kinda selfishly want have the opportunity to hear them.

If you feel like talking about it, what do you think about these two things:

1) Li'l Jimmy Norton's argument - I think specifically talking about rape jokes, but also about "edgier" material in general - is that just as there are victims of rape who feel terrible/"triggered" when they here a rape joke, there are victims (or as Bobcat put it, "witnesses") of rape for whom it is a positive and cathartic experience to laugh at things that make them afraid/uneasy. I think that's actually a valuable function of comedy, that it allows us to discuss super-dark and taboo things. I think for some people it might be a genuinely helpful and healthy experience.

2) Moving away from improv: What about "The Implication" - that bit from It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_49P1RtqU0) I think it's so well written, so well acted, and such a successful tight-rope walk, that it crosses into fucking art. It's super dark, but as a comedy bit it's fucking sublime (in my opinion, obviously) ... So I guess I'm asking if the excuse "It's art!" would fly with you. :)

[–]trejdeksnis 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

1) I find some rape jokes really hilarious and yes, in some ways cathartic, but not the kind where it's just someone randomly raping someone else. Louis CK is the king of rape jokes in my opinion, and I think the distinction might be that in a good rape joke, the punchline isn't the victim. When Jeff goes "and then I raped Breffy" what are we laughing at? Just the fact that someone is being forced into sex? To me it feels like we're just pointing at the victim and going 'lol'. I'm not trying to be high-minded or anything, I just legitimately don't see the humor. There's got to be some extra twist that makes it hilarious. This is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU

If there are people out there who find "and then I raped this squirrel!" cathartic I'd be very curious to hear their opinion, but as for now I think just laughing at rape itself isn't catharsis, there has to be some sort of subversion or satire or whatever happening.

2) I don't watch It's Always Sunny but this was funny. I think it's an example of a good rape joke because I feel like the joke isn't "lol someone is getting raped" but instead a joke more about rapists and people who take advantage of those 'implication' gray areas. Also the other guy who is questioning all of it makes it pretty clear that this isn't a "yay rape" joke. The rapey guy is the weird one, the one that we're laughing at.

Comedy aside, I'm not against the portrayal of rape in art or porn or whatever.

[–]apaeter 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks for replying.

As for, where's the humor? I mean, we're just gonna have accept that nothing is less funny than explained jokes, but I think that joke categories like "gross out humor", "non sequitur", "over the top"/"oneup(wo)manship", "saying the worst possible thing in a given situation" are all tried and true comedy staples. For a non-rape example, think Jack Black kicking Baxter over the bridge in Anchorman. :) Not saying you're wrong if you don't find the rape bits funny, but it's not like there isn't a joke there.

I also don't think that Breffy is what we're laughing at, it's the absurd and over-the-top violence. (I feel like I should use the word "juxtaposition" somewhere in the previous sentence, but I can't get it done. I think you know what I'm trying to say, tho? :) )

If I may unfairly bastardize your argument into a convenient strawman for myself: You seem to say "I'm okay with those rape jokes I find funny, but not the ones that I think suck." Which is totally fine as a personal stance, but not a great basis for the moon colony constitution...

[–]trejdeksnis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I'm not trying to dictate a constitution, this is just my personal stance. If we want to make it more about a constitution or an agreed way we want to live our lives, then I'd say it's not about saying "we can only make the jokes trejdeksnis likes", it's about each individual making the choice for themselves if the humor in a joke is worth the impact it causes to their community. You mentioned that dark humor can be cathartic, and therefore has function. It's also evident that dark humor can be harmful, whether to individuals or to society (an argument could be made that jokes like this contribute to rape culture). So does the function outweigh the harm? I think this is a question everyone should ask themselves, and that's what should be in the constitution. There are things I do for others that don't make sense to me. Personally, I don't have any emotional connection to the n-word, and I think it's okay to say it in the context of a discussion, like if I'm talking about a book or movie that uses it, I don't want to have to constantly say "the-n-word". But, I've got a few close friends who are really bothered even hearing it said in that context, so I decided I'm not losing a lot by modifying the way I speak to make things more comfortable for them. That's the type of response that I'd hope for.

[–]chucknorrisinator 28ポイント29ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't recall Jeff ever mocking a rape survivor who was on the stage. I honestly think you misinterpreted something. Jeff is a cool dude and a darker improv sorta guy.

[–]trejdeksnis 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

I can't recall that either, but there are plenty of other points OP made that are valid re: Jeff using rape in his comedy in a way that is understandably upsetting to some people.

[–]chucknorrisinator 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't understand why we're singling Jeff out. Plenty of other dark jokes are made.

[–]trejdeksnis 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Feel free to bring up other dark jokes if you want to discuss them, I'm talking about Jeff because that's what OP was reacting to.

[–]chucknorrisinator 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

"We're" was intended to refer to OP, not you per se. Sorry for the confusion.

The 9/11 bits are pretty dark. Dan calling Erin a cunt. Spencer spinning off of Jeff's rape of Fluffie that time Jeff wasn't there and the gang ran into the zombie Fluffie. Et al.

[–]trejdeksnis -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gotcha, sometimes I confuse the line between a direct response and more of a general contribution to the discussion. I think everything you brought up is on par with the Jeff rape jokes. I think the 9/11 jokes are funny because of the absurdity of us cheering at 9/11, but I'm pretty removed from the emotion around the event so I could absolutely see someone being more affected by it.

[–]irishstevenj 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think your concern is well-founded, but I also think that the show is done by a pair of alcoholics live and without a script, so sometimes they don't always say the best things. I'm sure (and according to another post in this thread, he has) Jeff feels bad in retrospect for some of the things he's said, as we all do by our very nature.

[–]ConorNutt 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

They mention and joke about murder all the time , but no one is making light of real people being murdered ,or Dan joking last e.p about fucking his own daughter , he's not really saying that's ok ,or the 911 stuff ,if you're not adult enough to be able to tell a joke about a subject as opposed to an individual you probably shouldn't consume comedy.

[–]DrewbieWanKenobie 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's pretty safe to say that if you're the kind of person who needs to avoid triggers, well, you might have a bad time listening to Harmontown and that has been apparent from the beginning.

[–]tylergfoster 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are two sides to this. I do wish Jeff were a little more sensitive sometimes. At the same time, I've enjoyed 85%-90% of what he brings to Harmontown. As far as I can remember (and I'm far from encyclopedic in my memory of the show), he only brings up rape a couple of times in D&D with Coco (later reconned by Erin to be consensual), and then one other time when Breffy dies. Would I have rather him not done it? Sure. At the same time, we're talking 10 minutes out of roughly 19,200 and counting that you could easily just skip. Not to mention Dan made the same mistake in his much publicized description of what it was like watching Season 4. (Admittedly, Dan is far more apologetic about that than Jeff is about his jokes.)

As someone who knows two rape victims who I watch struggle with this, I really hate the very Reddity negative reaction to any sort of diversity or sensitivity request on this board. It's not pearl-clutching or tumblr/SJW specific to not want to hear about what so many Redditors refuse to acknowledge is a genuinely horrific, traumatic, and ultimately extremely personal act of violence. That said, I also don't know what "I hate you Jeff" is really going to accomplish. That's not a discussion.

[–]trejdeksnis 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't know if you know, but Jeff did apologize for crossing the line the one time when he tried to rape Erin's character. I forgive him for not being perfect, and the raping happened a lot less (or maybe not at all?) after that. I think a lot of people don't have the personal perspective on rape to realize how much these jokes affect some audience members, so to them it's just a funny thing you can play for laughs. When I was in school people would casually say "i raped that math test" if they did well. It's awful, but that didn't mean they were awful people, just ignorant and caught up in a culture where that was socially acceptable to say. Anyway, I hope you can see past the flaws because I think Jeff is awesome and funny despite the juvenile rape jokes, and keep listening to Harmontown, but if not, I get it. Sorry that the rape jokes ruined your listening experience :(

[–]cattataphish -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, Jeff apologized for this, but it also kind of ruined D&D. Immediately after raping Erin's character is when Jeff was gone for several shows. When he finally returned, they abandoned D&D and began Shadowrun. I'm sure there were many factors involved, but I can't help wondering if one is that some of the players felt uncomfortable going back to D&D after that

[–]trejdeksnis -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can see what you're saying, and I don't have any real evidence to back this up, but I just feel like they were going to abandon D&D anyway because it was getting old and they had been doing it for a while. If they wanted to keep going with D&D they could have just glossed over the rapey bits in the recap or mentioned them quickly and moved on with the characters. At least if it were me playing, I feel like I'd be able to move past it as a one-time incident.

[–]jrf_1973 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Jeffs absence due to his tour with the Who's Line gang, was scheduled WAY in advance. And it's exactly this sort of obviously checked BULLSHIT which irks me most about the SJW's who wanted SO desperately to find a link between Quarks' rapey jokes and Jeff's absence in the form of punishment. Every week they'd ask leading questions "Where's Jeff? Does it have to do with him being a rapist?" and every week they were told NO, but facts don't mean a fucking thing to these people...

[–]trejdeksnis 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The absence was definitely because of Whose Line and unrelated to the rapey jokes, but I still think it's fair to question if those jokes at all contributed to the decision to switch over to Shadowrun. Like I said above, I'm of the opinion that they were going to switch to Shadowrun anyway (and it makes sense that they'd time it after Jeff's long break), but it's not impossible to think that maybe they hadn't come to that decision yet and the uncomfortable episode influenced the decision to start fresh with Shadowrun.

The more I participate in this thread the more I realize that y'all aren't really responding to THIS thread necessarily, but a history of annoyance with so-called SJWs. I don't know how we can acknowledge that those people exist and are hard to deal with, but also be fair to people who voice when they are offended and all that.

[–]cattataphish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The absence was definitely because of Whose Line and unrelated to the rapey jokes, but I still think it's fair to question if those jokes at all contributed to the decision to switch over to Shadowrun. Like I said above, I'm of the opinion that they were going to switch to Shadowrun anyway (and it makes sense that they'd time it after Jeff's long break), but it's not impossible to think that maybe they hadn't come to that decision yet and the uncomfortable episode influenced the decision to start fresh with Shadowrun

Thank you, you said this better than I could. I wasn't trying to be a 'SJW' (thanks urban dictionary), but as someone who came to the podcast late and listened to the back-catalogue, that one episode stood out to me.

[–]Chicoaliceperes 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

We all must accept that reality is subjective and relative so…

This is ridiculous, Jeff is the best comptroller ever and yes if he’s drunk he can be a little caustic but that doesn’t mean he supports rape nor he has the intent of hurting anyone, so making it look like he does it’s horrible. And hell you have the right to think whatever you want, to have your OWN opinions but that doesn’t make it true for the rest of us.

Jeff is funny, Jeff is a great asset for the show and Jeff doesn’t mean to offend anyone, but if you do get offended… though luck, just stop listening, I pay for the video feed and will pay more if there’s other things to buy because this show is pure and without filter, and yes sometime it might offend someone more sensitive but if it does the only answer i’ve got is – stop listening, but Jeff is still great, he will still have days that he will make bad jokes as well as Dan, and Harmontown is a place where we are all the same, no one is better or worse than the other so accusing Jeff of being insensitive it’s stupid because he would never do it with bad intentions and this thread is stupid…

I hate the people who go against rape jokes when if they don’t like it they should be using people like Jeff as a bad example when teaching your kids what YOU think it’s acceptable or not, but imposing that standard to others is being worst than the person making the joke. If you got hurt just stop coming to the show and tell everyone you know how hurt you felt by it so people around you know how to act when they are around you, not all the rest of the following. Jeff will be Jeff you will be you, just don’t makes us lose the thing that makes the show work so well :)

The synergy is what makes it work and if you take that out you have Dan alone in a stage feeling frightened all the time, Jeff gives Dan confidence to act the way he does :) Sorry but I had to defend the people who don’t think the same as you, I’m not supporting rape culture simply saying that instead of “convicting”/”accusing” people, instead, use them as a “bad example” to the ones around you who agree with your views of life.

[–]jrf_1973 10ポイント11ポイント  (11子コメント)

It's a fucking ROLE playing game. He's a barbarian. He's playing a role. Hilariously I might add.

If you and your faux-concern for "oh my triggers!!!" can't stand the show, don't listen to it. It really is that simple.

[–]trejdeksnis 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

I don't know why you assume that it's faux-concern, and I don't know why the reaction has to be "take it or leave it" instead of a dialogue about how or if we should change the show.

You think it's hilarious, but others don't, and the fact that it's role-playing is kind of irrelevant. If someone went up there and role-played being a boring accountant, we're entitled to criticize and say "hey that's boring do something else" and no one would say "but it's ROLE playing, he's playing the role of the accountant PERFECTLY!" No one's saying that Jeff is actually raping anyone, we know it's a role. I just don't like that role and I'd rather not see it as part of Harmontown.

[–]jrf_1973 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (9子コメント)

His job is to be entertaining- if he was boring, yes we'd be entitled to criticise. But he's not being boring. He IS being entertaining. And no one in the world is born with the inherent right to go through life without being offended.

[–]trejdeksnis 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

By that logic, I'm not entertained, so I'm entitled to criticize what I perceive as a boring bit.

To clarify my perspective - I'm not at all saying that anyone has a right not to be offended. I am not advocating for forcibly censoring anyone. What I want is for individuals to make the decision to selectively censor themselves out of empathy for their community - to fully understand the negative impact of their words so they can hopefully decide it outweighs the benefit.

[–]jrf_1973 -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

For better or worse, the majority of the community doesn't have a problem with his jokes. I don't see why the majority should have less laughs, just because YOU don't think something is funny.

[–]trejdeksnis 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

What I said above - does the benefit outweigh the negative impact? Does the majority's collective joy outweigh the minority's pain? Are the laughs worth hurting the people who are made very uncomfortable by these jokes? Everyone's got to decide this for themselves, and in order to do so you need to understand the value of humor and the magnitude of harm it causes. In this case, I don't think these type of rape jokes are that valuable. It's juvenile humor and not very smart or edgy comedy, it's not changing the world or anything. So I'm more willing to give it up when I find out someone's hurt by it. I don't think my few seconds of laughing is really worth someone being really affected by it. Then to take a look at the hurt - is it just a mild "oh that joke was annoying?" or is it an intense discomfort, feeling attacked or unsafe or not belonging? is it possible that the rape joke contributes to the idea that rape is inherently funny and that does general social harm? To me, I understand that discomfort very well. That combined with not thinking the joke is great to begin with, makes me judge that no, we shouldn't value the majority's laughs over the minority's pain. If you're interested I could go more into why I think jokes like this are hurtful to individuals and to society.

[–]jrf_1973 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I believe in freedom of speech. When the solution to someones discomfort is either for them to leave and choose more appropriate entertainment, or to restrict everyone elses right to say and hear what they choose, guess which one I am ALWAYS going to side with?

[–]trejdeksnis -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

You're missing my point. I also believe in freedom of speech. Nothing I have said is contrary to that. I'm against censorship, everyone can keep saying whatever they want.

Let's say every time Dan says the word "jello" half the room experiences a few seconds of crippling pain. Per your comment, the solution is either for those people to stop coming to the show, or for Dan to make his own choice to stop saying "jello". If saying "jello" is really super duper important to Dan, he would keep saying it and tell that half the audience "too bad, this is who I am". But if saying "jello" isn't really that important, then he decides okay, I'll stop saying it and everyone can keep coming. That isn't anyone restricting him. That isn't him losing any freedom of speech. That isn't anyone in the audience losing any freedoms, either. If you're an audience member who really enjoyed jello-related comedy, it might be a bummer to you, but you can probably find other people who make jello jokes.

Now just replace jello with rape jokes and maybe my point will be more clear?

[–]jrf_1973 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you're an audience member who really enjoyed jello-related comedy, it might be a bummer to you, but you can probably find other people who make jello jokes.

Why should I have to?

maybe my point will be more clear?

Your point was never not clear. I just think it's crap.

[–]squidmanphilosopher -4ポイント-3ポイント  (13子コメント)

Obvious troll throwaway account is obvious.

If you aren't trolling, you're weak, and can't take a joke. Jeff Davis is obviously not an advocate of rape. Go jump on the tumblr trigger train and ride it straight into SJW hell where you and all the other fallen-angel-dragon-kin can sit around and cry about how mean the world is and how misunderstood you are.

[–]cattataphish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So you're going to call the OP out as a troll, and then fill the rest of your post with personal attacks? What a brave and thoughtful contribution to the discussion...

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Like when Jeff threatened to rape an audience member who didn't think it was funny when he tried to rape Erin's character in D&D, because Erin's character tried to stop him from raping an NPC. Fucking comedy gold. Great joke. Never claimed he was an advocate of rape, just a fucking asshole.

[–]dylguy90 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're allowed to be mad about that but he did apologize on reddit for those comments. So, like, people are not allowed to make mistakes? Also for the record it didn't even bother me, sorry you get triggered so easily. I fucking love Jeff.

[–]trejdeksnis -3ポイント-2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Fuck you man, and the people that upvoted this sentiment, even if OP is 'trolling' or whatever. I'm sorry, I don't have the patience to be nicer right now because this attitude is horrible. Someone's weak because they don't like Jeff making rape jokes? I 100% believe that Jeff is not an advocate of rape. That doesn't mean that my only logical response is to laugh and "take" the joke. Rape is fucking horrible, and if you've undergone it, or you've been close to people who have, or you have the empathy to imagine the horror, then there's a very real emotional response when Jeff makes the type of rape jokes he does. I LOVE Jeff. I fully accepted his apology for crossing the line, but that doesn't erase the fact that I cringed every time he raped a D&D character and the intense discomfort I felt hearing it all played out for a laugh. Please try to find some compassion. People go through experiences you don't understand, and labeling them "weak" for being hurt by jokes that recall that experience is unacceptable. And if you yourself have undergone rape and find these jokes hilarious, I congratulate you for reaching the place you have, but not everyone can, will or should have to get there.

[–]squidmanphilosopher 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

Rape is horrible. Nobody's arguing that, and it doesn't mean that you don't have any compassion just because you laugh at a rape joke. But as far as I'm concerned, you, OP, and a lot of people in the millennial generation have absolutely NO concept of sentiment, and instead take words at face value, choosing to side with the victim of a crime that's being committed somewhere that is TOTALLY UNRELATED to what is being discussed or joked about: a fictional character in a fictional universe fictionally raping another fictional character, with the exclusive intent of entertaining an audience.

From where I sit, yours and OP's perspective is dishonest. So we should just shut up and not talk about (or laugh about, for fuck's sake) the horrible truth of human nature, just because people's feelings are going to be hurt? Fuck that. I'm not devaluing victims experiences, either, or saying that I don't feel for them, because we all know someone (or more likely several people) who have been raped. But telling Jeff or me or whoever else to shut up because it triggered little Johnny OP over here might as well be fascism. The world doesn't have to cater to you and your emotions, or anyone else's, just because something bad has happened to you. That's called entitlement, and I'm pretty sure its the millennial MO.

Look, by no means is my word the moral paradigm of the ages. I understand that there are people who revel in being politically correct and walk on eggshells all day long and never say anything "edgy" (I use that term loosely) ever, because they live in fear of hurting someone's feelings or being perceived as immoral, or wrong. But if I'm being honest with myself, I fucking HATE that kind of person. That's why I went off on OP...I have no regrets about it and would do it again, in person or online.

[–]trejdeksnis 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

First of all, sorry I started off with "fuck you". I was upset, it's not the best side of me. I probably should have counted to 10 or some shit like that.

I don't think people who laugh at rape jokes don't have compassion, but I think people who respond to other people's hurt with "you're weak" need more of it.

I am also not trying to silence anyone in a fascist way. No one is under the obligation to cater to my emotions, but I'll make them aware that they upset me in case they want to change their behavior.

I love some edgy rape jokes that relieve the social pressure around such horrible things. Louis CK is a great example of rape used for laughs. Another favorite joke of mine is a side comment where someone says they were molested in United States of Tara (FYI, I was molested. The joke is about the molested person trying to relate to Tara who has dissociative identity disorder). I'm fully capable of laughing at these types of jokes, when I find them funny. But I don't find a fictional character raping another fictional character in a fictional universe inherently funny. Haha, this fictional character is being forced to submit to sex, LOL. I don't get it. I think if you're going to make a rape joke, it shouldn't be at the fictional victim's expense, and it should be clever enough to merit the edginess.

I'm not a tumblr SJW otherkin or whatever you think I am. There's some middle ground for people to be offended by these things without being that type. I think, generally, people who are offended by language need to consider people's intentions more instead of focusing on words, and people who say offensive things need to examine the value of their edginess and be more considerate of others.

There's this huge backlash out there to being told what to say or to be more PC, but I think it's largely unwarranted. Aside from those fringe tumblr groups, most people aren't asking you to radically change your language or censor yourself. It's just a small "hey this bothers me, please stop". I just don't understand the hurt or anger or passion on "your side" that much... I want to, so if you can explain it more I'm listening.

[–]ConorNutt 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

"just a small "hey this bothers me, please stop", is quite different from "fuck you jeff i hate you",there's more reactionaries on the side of censorship than against it .

[–]trejdeksnis -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Admittedly OP is more incensed than I am, and ideally people would be able to see past the initial anger and accept that good people make bad choices sometime, and forgive. But I'm going to give the offended party more leeway to be angry, because rape is a big deal. I don't understand that same anger on the other side, the anger around freedom of speech (I guess that's what it is?), so I expect them to be 'the bigger person' and have more empathy. I think our perspectives are definitely different here, because you say you see more reactionaries on the side of censorship, and I definitely feel like there are more reactionaries on the 'freedom of speech' side. They're using the slippery slope argument to say no, we're not going to budge at all on this because we're afraid of the extreme future in which no one is allowed to say anything, fascism blah blah, but that is so far removed from the ask, which is really just for a little more empathy and consideration. I know there are people on the 'offended' side who take it too far, but I really think the majority is not made up of people like that.

[–]ConorNutt 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well i can't speak for your experience but personally one of my favorite comedy satire shows of all time , an English program called Brasseye (which by the way was just amazing look it up ) ,was taken off the air by exactly this kind of kneejerk reaction , some people were offended by it and it was gone ,even though the episode in question was satirizing exactly that kind of thinking .And sorry but lack of freedom of expression/speech always plays into the hands of despots historically .

[–]trejdeksnis -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

OK, I can see how in recent times there has been action taken against people for speaking in certain ways (I'm thinking of advertising being removed from controversial people like Trump, or sports-related stuff) and why you'd feel like freedom of speech is under attack. I read about Brasseye on Wikipedia, I assume you're referencing the pedophilia episode controversy? Anyway, I'll check it out.

So I guess I take back what I said about not understanding the freedom of speech thing. I still think there needs to be a better response though, than a blanket sense of "if you don't like it shut up and go away" or "I'm going to say what I want to say all the time always because if I don't then the despots will rule" because most of the time there's space in between to modify the way you talk (willingly) to help other people without losing any great freedoms.

Another thing I just realized is that this whole time, I have been very much focused on individual interactions or small community interactions like Harmontown. I think there's a separation there that's important - toning down rape jokes to help out members of a community is a long ways away from despots or government censorship on a large scale.

[–]ConorNutt 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

My point is , when dan makes a joke about all the atheists on a plane crash who've ever wanted to throw their babies in the air , no one gets offended because obviously dan's not really saying that's o.k , he's making a joke.Now on mainstream television ,no one would ever make a joke like that , people made are completely aware by advertisers that any humor or opinion which ANYBODY might find offensive must be removed , and what do we end up with , bland homogenized crap.

I'm not saying all humor has to be edgy , there's a place for parks and rec or whatever , but most of the best comedy to my mind has always been offensive to at least one group of people if for nothing else than the freedom of that speech (see monty python,lenny bruce ,south park,george carlin ,richard pryor ,bill hicks,stuart lee and as i mentioned before chris morris) .

Personally I never made either of the statements you're attributing to my stance on stuff i wouldn't say "if you don't like it go away " but i also don't agree that there should be limits put onto comedy other than equality , so if we're aloud to joke about some dark experiences that people may or may not have been affected by , then i don't think you can then say that a particular issue is exempt , if we're going to take things out of context i personally don't think child abuse is any more of a joke than rape , but i'm not the one who's offended .

I understand your point and think it has merit , but i dearly hope this mindset never gets to have an effect on harmontown , i really think it's a slippery slope once some things become not o.k to joke about ,especially in a show where everyone cheers at 911.

[–]trejdeksnis 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think we should say "it's not ok to joke about rape" but I think we need to examine how we're joking about rape (already described elsewhere on this thread so I won't rehash it). I do agree it would be nice if people weren't catering to the whims of advertisers and money wasn't such a driving force in the creative world. I also know what you mean about not wanting Harmontown to be a place where people are too cautious because one of the things that makes it amazing is the freedom to kind of say anything. Anyway, we've talked this to death so I'll stop. Good talk.

[–]WorldNommer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love how it's okay for them to joke about killing people, people's races, and people's sexuality but as soon as some one makes fun of something that has affected you or someone you care about, it's considered to cross the line. I'm sorry to say, that's comedy. You either laugh at everything indiscriminately, or you are hypocrite who can laugh at other's pain, but not your own.

Jeff Davis, if you're reading this, I love you so very very much. Keep on raping imaginary things.