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[–]Jakedubbleya 58ポイント59ポイント  (32子コメント)

The whole expansion of civilization from Mesopotamia! Perhaps very separate major culture(s) altogether! We have tons of evidence from all those civilizations that were inland and safe from rising sea, but to see Egyptian levels of technological know-how from other Mediterranean cultures shows a much more dynamic and active region! It's exciting to think of how many cultures could have participated only to be washed away. Even during the rise of Rome we hear of numerous, mysterious and powerful seafaring peoples that played big parts in that particular bit of history. To think that similar cultures were possibly even bigger players during early the era of Egypt is just so fascinating and could certainly redefine the way we look at Egyptian and Mesopotamian texts from the early bronze age :O

I'm no expert, I just love that early bit of human history and have always found the mysterious shoreline peoples of the Mediterranean to be some of the most fascinating characters ever! Were they pirates that abducted Egyptian artisans? Were they migrant/rogue Sumerians/Egyptians? Were they major trade partners that acquired the technology through gradual exposure?

What if they had their own technologically advanced culture? WHAT IF THEY INTRODUCED TECHNOLOGY SUCH AS BOATS TO EGYPT AND SUMERIA!?! Did they play any kind of significant role in the development of ancient Greek culture as we know it today?

I don't think this will answer any of those questions in any definitive way, but the possibilities seem to be incredible! How many incredible things lay just off the shores of Greece and other areas, washed away in the typical fashion of the region? Surely lots, judging by what we know of the region's history of mysterious coastal peoples :)

Aaaanyway, totally nerded out there and I'm definitely no expert. Just some of the possibilities that came to mind.

[–]Vio_ 19ポイント20ポイント  (5子コメント)

Let's not get too crazy with diffusionist theories about who taught what to which group. That's abig chunky trap without real evidence to back it up.

[–]Jakedubbleya 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's just a fun idea based on the dates of the technology. I hope my post didn't come across as anything other than enthusiastic conjecture from a complete amateur :p

[–]Vio_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

No no. I totally get it m, and encourage it. It's just archaeology has a complicated ethical and back history that is lacking in most sciences, and our culture is very much outdated and has bad information still floating around.

[–]Jakedubbleya 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know three very normal people that vehemently believe that aliens from a hidden planet in our solar system are responsible for just about everything. Thanks Zecharia Sitchin.

There's an infinite amount of fascinating things to learn about considering our short lifespans, I think some people just get overwhelmed and look for a fun conclusion. Thank god for the professionals, saving society from the nutters one facepalm at a time :)

[–]Vio_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is that the sexy Star Gate type bullshit gets conflated super easy with mainstream media and dissemination of people m. History Channel alone is a charnel house of bad history and archaeology. Because history is so backburnered by our education system, people know very little about actual, super easy verifiable history coupled with political groups trying to control and weaponize it for their own ends. Archaeology is even more of a tricky issue as it's not based on written records, but on digs and remains and artifacts. It's hard to fight, at times, "aliens did it" withMunsell color shifts in a horizon in a trench.

[–]lambsonight 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So this probably isn't atlantis?

[–]r_e_k_r_u_l 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

Sumer*, not Sumeria

[–]Jakedubbleya 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man that's about the five billionth time I've done that lol. I'll never learn.

[–]idontwantaname123 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

sorry, a quick interenet search didn't really satisfy me... what is the difference?

[–]Vampire_Jesus 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sumer is correct, Sumeria is often mistakenly derived from "Sumerian."

It's a natural mistake to make:

Person from America = American

Person from Mexico = Mexican

Person from Sumeria = Sumerian

I still do this occasionally, even though I know better.

[–]idontwantaname123 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

got it!

When I looked up Sumeria, a lot of stuff still came up and it seemed to be talking about the same place as Sumer. Seems like an easy mistake to make!

How do we decide on the names of ancient civilizations anyway?

[–]Vampire_Jesus 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm no expert, but I do know that it tends to be haphazard and is usually coined by the people who discover it (which makes sense). For instance, the Minoans were named after a mythical king named Minos. No Minoan would have said "Hi, I'm Jake. I'm a Minoan."

I think that's an interesting enough question to ask in /r/AskHistorians

[–]idontwantaname123 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No Minoan would have said "Hi, I'm Jake. I'm a Minoan."

hahaha, exactly!

Right, and the "discoverer" getting to name it also makes sense, but surely that's not always the case... ya, i'll give it a shot.

[–]McWaddle 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

Even during the rise of Rome we hear of numerous, mysterious and powerful seafaring peoples that played big parts in that particular bit of history. To think that similar cultures were possibly even bigger players during early the era of Egypt

The Sea Peoples

[–]Illier1 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damn Mediterranean mystery Vikings...

[–]Jakedubbleya 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The coolest part is this town is even older than the first Egyptian records of Sea Peoples! And so advanced!

[–]idontwantaname123 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ya, it's crazy interesting. I hope we are abe to find out more!

[–]dabigmanating 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Ahh right ok! So, as usual, a great discovery creates more questions than answers. I always thought of the Ancient Egyptians as an advanced culture surrounded by lesser cultures, but, of course, that's a silly thought and obviously there were other cultures that aided or leeched off the Egyptian knowledge, no man is an Island and I presume that is the same for advanced cultures. This does seem pretty fascinating if there was an advanced culture in the Med at around that time. Might it help explain how the next big advanced culture that we are most aware of was the Ancient Greeks? Is this evidence for a cultural spread that started in Egypt and moved to Greece and hence the Romans?

[–]ChurchThug 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Haven't you heard of the Hyksos and Sea People giving the Egyptians hell? According to The Hebrew faith, they also gave the Egyptians hell. I only say "according to" because there is no physical evidence of a migration out of Egypt unless you count the expulsion of the Hyksos and other invading peoples.

[–]dabigmanating 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've got to say I haven't really done much on ancient history pre-Roman. I'm most knowledgeable on modern history and much of what I know about Egypt is gleaned from the occasional documentary or two and primary school education!

[–]Vio_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Technological advancements do not mean one culture is somehow more advanced or complex than other cultures

[–]dabigmanating 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

How so? I'd presume back then that was the way you could measure a societies advancement? Better medicine, knowledge and farming techniques are surely a sign of advancement? I may be utterly wrong here I'm not social anthropologist nor ancient historian

I do realise reading through my comment I used advanced culture an inordinate amount of times

[–]Vio_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Cultures aren't on a stratified ladder of complexity/less complexity to be compared /contrasted with others. Each exists in an independent state with its own internal /external dynamics and shifts (much of which is lost in time). We can do compare/contrasts, but only on that level, but without adding components of biases or massive conclusions or judgments of "who is better?" On top of that l, lack of evidence doesn't mean that something was lacking. We can only observe material shadows of these societies and the archaeological record is fragmentary at best. Modern humans have existed the same for ~200ky now, but it's just the advent of agriculture and stratified societies and urbanization that has really changed.

[–]Stillcant 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not sure I understand the point aside from a desire to be PC

Agriculture allows for excess food production which allows for more complexity

Same thing with some other technologies like writing

How is there not a complexity hierarchy associated with technology?

[–]justSFWthings 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm realizing more and more how excited I get by this stuff. I listened to one of the "Great Courses" lectures on ancient history and it touched on some of this which piqued my interest. I really want to learn more about the dawn of human civilization, and before that. If anyone has any books to recommend, I'm all ears! And, um, eyes? Which makes me sound like some kind of Lovecraftian horror...

[–]ChurchThug 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Huh, are you inferring civilisation started in and expanded out of Mesopotamia?

[–]Jakedubbleya 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just referring to the cultures that were heavily influenced by Mesopotamian cultures :D

[–]ChurchThug 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah I see, you didn't list the countries in particular though. Mesopotamia influencing Egypt is a stretch in my humble opinion.

[–]Jakedubbleya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't list a lot of things, like, a whole BUNCH of things! The more I look at these replies the more I'm like... man, I really shouldn't post such emotional hyperbole in a sub like /r/history :p In the future I'll be a little more careful with my words.

I've always understood that Egypt developed on it's own but was heavily involved with Mesopotamia and that Mesopotamian cultures were, in general, the main players during the period. I'm just excited to see what kinds of lines can be drawn.

[–]BroomCornJohnny 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It wasn't a rising sea that submerged most of these ancient cities, it was the geological activity in the region. Pedantic? Maybe. I just keep running into the same rhetorical argument about how sea levels have been naturally rising for millennia. See all the submerged ancient ruins? And so man didn't cause no global warming.

[–]Jakedubbleya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

My bad for insinuating that :) Thanks man!

[–]skippymcskipperson 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your enthusiasm and excitement for this subject mirrors my own; am thrilled to see other people get all pumped about this. It's utterly fascinating and as you say, brings so many questions with far reaching implications. Great stuff!